Spike's "attempted rape" of Buffy in Seeing Red

[The Arcane]

And whether Spike thought what he was doing was ok AT THE MOMENT doesn't mean that everything is ok. When Buffy kicks him off he says:

Spike: Buffy, my god, I didn't-

He knew what just happened and he knew it was wrong. Doesn't matter if he realised it during or after, it was attempted rape!

Only after the fact. When Spike was actually doing the things that are being called rape he is not under that impression. At that time he believes he is doing what Buffy wants and that Buffy will give in.

It is only when Buffy finally kicks him away that he is able to understand that she really was not going to do so this time. At that point, if he had continued his attack, then perhaps i would have agreed that it was rape. But the fact is that he wasn't trying to rape her, he thought he was turning her on, same as all the times before.

Again, it's about what his intent during those actions were. He believed something to be true and he was mistaken but that doesn't suddenly mean that he was trying to rape Buffy.

 

[Nighthawk]

No I never said his mind was set on raping Buffy but thats just what happend. I see you're fixed on your position and it doesn't look like it will be changing so I'll leave you with this:

It doesn't matter when he realised he did something wrong. He did it no matter what his initial intent was, he did what he did and that was attempted rape. I understand what you mean that he didn't think he was doing anything wrong but that doesnt mean he didn't.

 

[The Arcane]

I'm sorry, NightHawk, but i would imagine that even in the eyes of human law it would be very difficult to make a case of rape against Spike.

If a lawyer was able to prove that there had been a history of violence in the sexual relationship between Buffy and Spike (from both parties) and was also able to prove that sex had always begun with these same actions of force between them then it would be a very difficult matter for the prosecution to prove that Spike was in the wrong for doing the exact same thing that night.

It ABSOLUTELY matters when you realise you have done something wrong. If you set out to kill somebody then it's murder. You plan it and carry out the act. If you kill somebody by accident then at worst it is manslaughter because there was no intent.

This is the same thing. Spike was in no way planning on raping Buffy because he expected her to change her mind, as always. The violence was simply part of the sex, same as always. His intent was to give her pleasure, as had always been the end result before. Once he knew that was not possible he stopped. He realised she really did not want sex and that this was a different situation to the times before and left.

In this situation Spike's intent is a very important consideration and changes the meaning of his actions that night intensely. For it to be attempted rape he would have had to have been willing to try and carry out the act even once he knew that Buffy was not going to agree. He didn't do that.

 

[Nighthawk]

ok so maybe my previous post wasnt my last but I just have to say this. The difference between a lawyer bringing up a case in a court and the Buffy/Spike incident is that in a courtroom it would be a he said/she said argument since noone else was present during the incident. But we actually saw what happend and yes I understand that they have a violent history but that doesnt mean Buffy can't say no. She did and he ignored, he forced himself on her and she stopped him. End of story.

 

[The Arcane]

But what i'm trying to point out is that Buffy pretty much always said no, and then jumped Spikes bones anyway. How could Spike have known this was any different until after the fact?

 

[Nighthawk]

Because she was screaming and crying no! Yelling "Spike please stop!" When did she do that before?

 

[The Arcane]

Because she was screaming and crying no! Yelling "Spike please stop!" When did she do that before?

I'm sorry but we are still talking about a demon here. Spike barely had a grasp of the human condition at the best of times and you expect him to notice that kind of detail under those conditions?

Buffy's slightly more forceful disapproval was perhaps apparent to us, as viewers, but given those circumstances to Spike it would have more likely suggested that she just wanted him to reciprocate and be more forceful himself.

 

[Nighthawk]

Spike is a demon he gets off on peoples pain and torture not only do I expect him to notice these kinds of details But I know he notices them and enjoys them after all its what makes him evil.

 

[The Arcane]

Spike is a demon he gets off on peoples pain and torture not only do I expect him to notice these kinds of details But I know he notices them and enjoys them after all its what makes him evil.

This is kind of going around in circles because the best answer i could give you in reply to that would be what i've already said about the truly conlicted nature of Spike in the post i made that begins "Ooooh, good argument!", and i still would not agree that it made any difference to the topic in question.

Ultimately, going back to my point about human law, if a judge and jury were given 100% of the accurate facts that led up to that night, no lawyer hype, just the details as they truly happened, and they saw that the sexual relationship between Buffy and Spike had always been one that was instigated by violence and that Buffy had always eventually enjoyed the encounters, then convicting Spike of rape when all he was doing was what had been expected of him previously would be almost impossible.

The problem with this debate is that involves a sexual act, which always colours opinion. Look at it like this. If you pushed a button every day and that button always made somebody happy you would continue to press that button. If then one day you pressed that button and it resulted in hurting the other person, yet you had no idea that anything different was going to happen, would that mean you intended to cause them pain?

Obviously this situation is not so clean cut but all Spike was trying to do was press that button. He did not intend for it to have any different effect than it had ever had before.

 

[Nighthawk]

But if someone told you to stop pushing the button why would you continue to do so?

I agree that this topic is so blurred by previous encounters between Buffy and Spike which makes it is hard to change your view once you've made your mind.

I really did understand your point and where you were going with it. I just think it's wrong.

I don't think this case would ever make it to trial because Spike never raped Buffy and if it did make it to court I think there's a chance for both arguments.

But I just can't deny that he forced himself on her. Had she not stopped him would it have been rape? considering the fact that she was crying and pleading him to stop. Yes, it would have been. And that's why it's attempted rape because had he gone through with it, it would have been rape. The fact that he didnt finish it doesnt make it anyless true that he was more than willing to force her to do something she didnt want to do.

Thats my final word.

 

[Willowfan4life]

of course spike realized he was wrong later..he almost raped buffy which is WRONG... but spike who loved buffy sadly thought that was the right thing to do by having sex with buffy...Buffy always had that on and off thing with spike..i mean i'm not blaming buffy for almost getting raped since spike is the one who was wrong but in his own way u feel sorry for him that he wanted to stoop that low to show he loved buffy... Buffy still played a big part and making spike want to do that.... Poor buffy her realationships really never go well.

 

[The Arcane]

But if someone told you to stop pushing the button why would you continue to do so?

That would depend on whether that person had told me to stop pressing the button every other time as well and yet still actually enjoyed the end result anyway! 😉

You simply cannot ignore the basic fact that Spike could not have possibly have known the difference. He was doing what he had been taught Buffy wanted him to do and getting the reaction that he had always expected. It is totally unfair to call that rape simply because Buffy could not make it clear to a demon the difference between "no means no" and "no means only after we knock each other around a bit".

Spike was absolutely in the wrong for doing what he did and it is easy for us to know that because we had all the details of what was going on in Buffy's head. Spike did not have that benefit. He totally misread the signs but with good cause. He made a wrong call that night but raping Buffy was never on his mind.

 

[Schillaci]

Oh, you completely changed my mind on this. I don't think Spike can be held accountable at all.

 

[Dancing man]

That eposaode revilied the pretend do gooder Spike for what he was a useless deamon who cant kill because of his chip and cant help because hes a deamon.

And thats why I liked it and the fact it was at Buffys expense was a bonus.

 

[drtroy]

I think it's interesting..that a lot of people don't think Angel..should be accountable for his sins in Season 2..but yet you are quick to blame Spike for what he did..

Yes..what he did was horrible..and if he meant it then hell she could have killed him..and I wouldn't have been upset. I really don't think he knew what he was doing until..he kicked him..which was why he LOOKED SO SUPRISED.

Also..another thing..if Buffy had felt what he did was so wrong..why didn't she kill the poor b+++ard. then..I mean that would have been the perfect reason..and it would have been just.


Also she wasn't exactly innocent in the matter..it doesn't matter..who or what the person is..you don't treat someone like s**t..because you can..it's wrong..no matter who you..are..it doesn't make what he did right in any aspect..but I think she did play a role.

 

[Maddy]

It WAS attempted rape and Spike knew damn well what he was doing.

Regardless of whether you apply human laws, vampire laws or no laws at all, what Spike did was clearly wrong. He forced himself onto someone who did not want it and made it crystal clear she did not want it. It really is THAT simple!

You can't say "poor Spike" simply because Buffy said no. She not only said no, but she sobbed as well as him pinning her to the floor and she told him that he was hurting her. Yes, the two of them got a little rough on previous occassions, but BOTH of them consented to that.

The difference between knowing the end result and the pleasure "button" as you were describing it Watcher, is what IS tthe difference between something being attempted rape or not. If you were in the middle of making love and the woman suddenly gets upset and starts crying and telling you to stop or that she has changed her mind, or she doesn't want you to continue what you are doing, then would you?

If so then great. If not then that makes you a potential rapist and why you are even defending Spike in this matter is just utterly beyond comprehension. He is doing something she does not want to do plain and simple. Regardless of whether he has a soul or not. And by the way, I don't think you can keep using that "but he doesn't feel any emotion/remorse" argument because it is clear by the expression on his face when Buffy kicks him off her that he REALISES what he has just done and it sinks in.

I also disagree about him "choosing" to leave and don't think that holds water either. He left because Buffy kicked him off powerfully and told him she could never trust him enough for it to be love. She would have physically thrown him out if she had to and he knew it.

 

[drtroy]

Wrong..I never said she deserved it..he WAS STILL VERY VERY WRONG.

No one deserves to be raped..or assaulted..no one..no matter what they have done in their past. I never said she deserved it..so thanks for the negative rep points..

And for the record I was talking about how she could have killed him when she recovered or when HE came back season 7..hell I think her killing him would have been just. so..maddy next time read what I said.

 

[postmortem]

Dia DeLa Muerte disagrees: Yes ir was attempted rape, but Buffy was not innocent in the events that led to this course of action. This is not a typical senario and there is some element of Blame at her feet...that does not mean i condone Spikes actions AT ALL.

I am wondering, are you blaming Buffy because she was raped? Was it her fault? If so, what is her fault?

 

[Edmund Blackadder]

I am wondering, are you blaming Buffy because she was raped? Was it her fault? If so, what is her fault?

Erm firstly she wasn't raped.

My point isnt that Spike is justified and that Buffy deserved this in anyway, what i am saying is that the events that led to Spike behaving in this manner are somewhat Buffy's fault.
She knew she couldn't love him, that it was only sex at that time, she knew that he knew too.
She also knew that things between them got a little rough.

This in no way condones the behaviour of Spike, he took things too far, BUT Buffy the Vampire Slayer needed to take some of the responsibility for the whole affair.

 

[Maddy]

No, she really didn't. She was not raped, but she would have been IF she had not kicked Spike off, which is the point I am trying to make. She said no, and no means no! Regardless of what history she had with Spike sexually, she did not want him then and made that clear, same as if you had an ex who you had slept with in the past ask you to take them back, you said no and motioned for them to leave but they then completely ignored your feelings and went on to attempt to rape you anyway. Would that be your fault? No? So why should it be Buffy's? She had had sex with Spike in the past, so what! It doesn't make her at fault in any way. As someone who has personally been through this experience I know how it feels and do genuinly wonder how people here actually define the words "attempted rape" and "rape". It is not about blame. It is about when one person says no and the other forces themselves on you anyway.

And I don't really care about all this "rep" nonsense either so give me all the negative points you want.:biggrin: