Spike's attempted rape on Buffy in "Seeing Red"

[tec]

Im going to put this in Xander speek

I like Spike
Spike do stupid things sometimes
I forgive Spike because Buffy forgives Spike.
Its Buffys choice.

 

[Buffyannsummers]

I really think it was an uncomfortable scene and maybe Joss went a little bit to far with this story line but people have to understand that this actually happens to innocent people living in this world some people are acting as if it is the most abnormal thing that they have ever heard!

I personally didn't like the fact that they shed spike in such a dark light in the 6th series because I used to like spike as a character but saying that I didn't really like his character in series 5 either because the whole Buffy bot thing Spiraled into this incident I find him really creepy and dark in the last few seasons... 🙁🙁🙁

 

[EffyStonem]

Which is why from my point of view the most disturbing things Buffy and Angel have done have been mind wipes (I think saying turning back time isn't the same is a complete cop out. She had those great memories and now she doesn't, because of Angel.)

It is not a "cop out" it's simply the truth. If Angel had gone to the Oracles and asked them to erase Buffy's memories and make him a vampire again then that would be "mind rape". He doesn't. The Oracles literally turn back time.

Buffy never had those memories. The Oracles made it so she never lived the day in question, therefore those memories never existed. Her mind is untouched. She has not lost anything. The day restarted, her memory wasn't wiped.

Did Angel make the decision without her and should he have consulted her first and made it so they came to the decision together? Absolutely. He did not have the right to change something so big without giving Buffy a say in it. But neither he nor the Oracles touched her mind.

I'm out. I don't like banging my head against a wall, which is what I feel like I am doing.

 

[EvilBuffy]

Because much of the discussion has been about the writing of the scene, I feel like this quote from James might be well suited for this thread and it's discussion. (I'll post the question as well.)

Al Norton: I ran a whole bunch of Buffy polls on our website and Facebook page and the one things the readers wanted me to ask you about, other than your favorite episode, was Seeing Red, the episode where Spike tries to force himself on Buffy. There's been some distance now between you and the episode; do you think it worked and did you understand the story they were trying to tell?

James Marsters: I do understand why they did it but I still think it was a mistake. The truth is the writers on Buffy were being incredibly brave. Joss was asking each of them to come up with their most painful day, their most humiliating day, the day that they made the biggest fools of themselves or the day they hurt someone else the most, and then put a patina of fangs and blood over that. Basically that's why I think the series is so delightful, because of the bravery of the writers on that score.

One of the writers, a female writer, had a situation in her life where she was and her boyfriend were breaking up and she decided if she just made love to him one more time, that they wouldn't break up. She ended up trying to force herself on him and decided to write about that. The thing is, if you flip it and make it a man forcing himself on a woman, I believe it becomes a whole different thing.

Even though Buffy is super strong, even though she kicks him through a wall at the end of it, how it plays to the audience changes when you change the sex that way. It worked out and everything but I'm not really sure it expressed what the author was intending and on that score it was not successful. I think it was a big risk for everybody but I think if she could have found a female character to express that with it would have gotten closer to what she was trying to say, and I'm not really sure that we got there with that episode.

 

[whitewolf]

I thought it was a stupid scene. Rape is rarely done well on film and this was no exception. It was very uncomfortable to watch and the amount of Spike sympathy we were asked to put up with was rather annoying. Perhaps he wanted to show us that Buffy was too strong to require sympathy, but to me it just came across as bad, unrealistic writing which is very rare for this show.

However, I do have to comment on the fan reaction. I've noticed a couple of people mention how this turned them off to Spike or read about fans who were turned off to Spike and I understand, but at the same time I don't. It was a horrible thing, but Spike was a horrible creature. He was literally a monster who murdered thousands. He wasn't human, he was a demon. William had been dead for over a century at this point. I guess my point is, compared to the slaughter of thousands why is attempted rape the straw that breaks the camel's back from some people? Next to the murder of thousands the attempted rape is just one more horrible crime to lay at a demon's feet.

 

[ladydorotea]

I guess my point is, compared to the slaughter of thousands why is attempted rape the straw that breaks the camel's back from some people? Next to the murder of thousands the attempted rape is just one more horrible crime to lay at a demon's feet.

IMHO, the *why* is very much explained by many a Spuffy/Spike fan in many threads all over. To put it simple JM deliberately softened and humanized the character from his first appearance on camera ( to paraphrase from him - 'I had a kid to feed and needed money, so I played Spike as if he had a soul from scene one'). Fans loved the character and eventually the writers began to bent the rules for soulless vampires in the verse ( I think Jane Espensen was on of the main perpetrators) by writing more and more cutesey scenes until finally coming up with the 'chip' excuse to keep Spike 'on the side of good'. The AR scene finally brought it back home to many that under all that glamor and charisma at that point the character was still a soulless monster. But the cognitive dissonance was so bad that many still refused to let it sink in - ( ie soulless == evil ) as I saw somebody put up a theory of 'Spike being always a knight in shining armor looking for a damsel to serve' on the inside.

 

[whitewolf]

IMHO, the *why* is very much explained by many a Spuffy/Spike fan in many threads all over. To put it simple JM deliberately softened and humanized the character from his first appearance on camera ( to paraphrase from him - 'I had a kid to feed and needed money, so I played Spike as if he had a soul from scene one'). Fans loved the character and eventually the writers began to bent the rules for soulless vampires in the verse ( I think Jane Espensen was on of the main perpetrators) by writing more and more cutesey scenes until finally coming up with the 'chip' excuse to keep Spike 'on the side of good'. The AR scene finally brought it back home to many that under all that glamor and charisma at that point the character was still a soulless monster. But the cognitive dissonance was so bad that many still refused to let it sink in - ( ie soulless == evil ) as I saw somebody put up a theory of 'Spike being always a knight in shining armor looking for a damsel to serve' on the inside.

That makes a lot of sense thanks.

 

[ashleigh]

When I first watched it, I didn't think much about it. The thoughts of attempted rape didn't even cross my mind. I think I was most annoyed that Buffy didn't just kick his ass 😛

Rape is never okay in any circumstance, but I can't help but not really give a damn in this instance:

1) It was purely there as a reason for Spike to get his soul back
2) Buffy was having sex with a soulless vampire. Clearly something had to go wrong.

Personally I found Warren's treatment of Katrina much more repulsive. He practically tried to rape her, and unlike Spike didn't even accept he had done anything wrong.

 

[EffyStonem]

1) It was purely there as a reason for Spike to get his soul back

This is true and in itself is horrifying. Rape is something that should never be taken lightly and should be portrayed and dealt with onscreen with thought and sensitivity. It should never be used merely as a plot device as this turns it into something trivial and undermines what real rape survivors go through. I know that we are talking about a fictional TV show, however rape, as a special kind of evil, always needs to be handled with care.

The fact that Joss thought it was alright to use sexual assault in such a way is gross and irresponsible. He pretty much spat in the faces of every sexual assault victim by using such a violating and disgusting crime as a plot device.

2) Buffy was having sex with a soulless vampire. Clearly something had to go wrong.

I am highly uncomfortable with this statement because it sounds a lot like victim blaming. Yes, Buffy was having sex with a soulless demon. Yes their sex life did test the boundaries. However this does not mean that she should be expecting sexual assault to take place nor that it was inevitable or that it was in any way, shape or form her fault.

Personally I found Warren's treatment of Katrina much more repulsive. He practically tried to rape her, and unlike Spike didn't even accept he had done anything wrong.

Yes but the difference between Spike and Warren is that Warren is ultimately punished for his crimes and in a very satisfying way. Spike on the other hand, attempts to rape the woman he loves and ends up receiving her love and support. I don't care if he got his soul back, that doesn't eliminate what she went through at his hands or redeem him for what he did to her.

 

[tec]

But it comes back to Buffys choice.
Not ours she desides what she wanted not us we can judge all we want in the end she thought about it long and hard and her choice is final not much we can do now but respect her desion.

 

[Robb Stark]

But it comes back to Buffys choice.
Not ours she desides what she wanted not us we can judge all we want in the end she thought about it long and hard and her choice is final not much we can do now but respect her desion.

Well...not really.

Just saying things like that kind of simplifies a complex situation. Now, I've always said that you can't hold a vampire with a soul truly accountable for actions they took without a soul. I've said that for Angel and I've said that for Spike. Otherwise, just as a fan, we're rooting for serial killers, and I don't think that's what anyone intended. I'm not excusing anything, but that's the way I feel about it.

Plus, it's a little difficult to just say "well that's how Buffy feels" without considering her frame of mind in S6. It's not like she was in the right state of mind during that whole period.

And the discussion hasn't really been about Buffy and Spike as characters, but more about the writing and the direction the producers went in.

 

[ladydorotea]

But it comes back to Buffys choice.

Yeah, and I believe her choice was loudly and energetically expressed in that scene all very clearly. Too bad nobody ever bothers to actually read that transcript.

BUFFY: (yelling) No, stop it!
SPIKE: I know you felt it ... when I was inside you...

Close on his hands trying to open her robe. Sound of fabric ripping.

Buffy breaks partly free and starts crawling toward the door again. Spike grabs her ankle and pulls her back toward him, flips her over, pins her hands to the floor.

BUFFY: No, ow, ow! (sobbing) Please, please, Spike, please...
SPIKE: You'll feel it again, Buffy...
BUFFY: Please don't do this...
SPIKE: I'm gonna make you feel it.

He rips the front of her robe open. Buffy screams and struggles against him as he tries to get her robe off.

BUFFY: Stop!!!

She gives him one last shove with her Slayer-strength and Spike goes flying backward, crashing into the sink and the wall. Buffy gets to her feet, holding her robe closed with one hand. It's torn so that one of her shoulders is exposed.

Spike gets up, panting and staring at her.

BUFFY Ask me again why I could never love you.

 

[tec]

Its not about her mind in S6 its about her choices in S7 she allowed Spike back in her life she allowed the chip to be removed she threated to let Spike kill Princeapal Woods if he attempted to Kill Spike again

She forgave Spike it happen in her world it happens in ours its not the best situation but its not our choice

I have to live with Buffys desitions or in this case the writers if this is the case. Even so they made the chacacters who they are so its writers choice.

 

[ladydorotea]

Well, the discussion was not about S7 choices, I believe, but about S6 characters and writing choices, and the later made decisions by writers are still very very questionable to many. I don't see how we 'have to respect' a choice of the writers to undermine the character that was supposed to be female empowerment icon by basically denying her the resolution of all the post-sexual assault pain and trauma. That's a personal choice of course, but I do not have to respect this choice, and I do not.

And by the way, in the latest interview about comics S9 Joss Whedon called S6 of BtVS the 'wrong decision-aphon' on Buffy's part. So , at least in his opinion the choices she was making back then in S6 were the wrong ones.

 

[tec]

So she made bad choices who hasent she learned from thim and moved on

 

[shoshanna33]

I don't even know how to address what happened in SR without sounding Spike apologetic which I know will get me into hot water. But I saw a confused SOULLESS vampire who only knew violent sex with Buffy as doing what he thought was acceptable. Many times Buffy said she didn't want him, only to end up having sex with him. And in Spike's mind it was very hard to separate the events. Sure she said no, but he thought no meant "convince me a little more" which is what it usually meant. So he tried in the only way he knew how to connect with Buffy. He thought it was okay. He never said to himself "I"m gonna rape this girl". The thought never crossed his mind. He just wanted her to admit they had something. This something she denied yet kept coming back for more. He was desperate. I don't see this as an unforgivable act because Spike didn't immediately know it was wrong. He thought this is just how things are. She says no, I say yes, we do it.

It wasn't until she kicked him away and really showed him she meant no, that he understood, "hey something isn't right here". He felt remorse. He felt guilt and badness for it. But at the time it was happening, I don't think he knew it was wrong. I don't think he ever meant to rape Buffy. Not for a second. It was not his intention. He just wanted her to admit they had something between them which at the time was sex. They had that between them.

He didn't know she was hurt. He didn't know she really meant no. He didn't grasp any of this because he was still soulless and also very confused by the signals Buffy had previously given him.

So when I think of this scene I don't see it as an AR but Spike not understanding what Buffy was feeling and what she meant. He never set out to rape her. He never wanted to hurt her. That's why he felt so guilty he got the soul. He never wanted to hurt her again. I have hard time with this scene because it's brutal and painful but I also can't help but see it from Spike's POV. Buffy didn't deserve it or ask for it, yet she sent some incredibly mixed signals to a vampire who was soulless and taking all his cues of humanity straight from her. He did what Buffy wanted. And he thought this is what Buffy wanted. And it wasn't until she set him straight did he actually realize that.

So I don't have problems with her forgiving him later. Or even for her taking Dawn to his crypt for protection. She saw her own role in fueling this disaster and understood it wasn't just Spike's fault. She should have never given him the mixed signals. He took all his cues from her. How to be good, he got that from her. So he only mirrored what she showed him. And in this case it was horribly wrong. He didn't understand which I don't blame him for. Not being that he was soulless and using Buffy as a compass for right and wrong.

 

[EVIL UU]

[MENTION=12342]shoshanna33[/MENTION]

He never said to himself "I"m gonna rape this girl". The thought never crossed his mind.

I disagree, I think that was exactly his intention. He's done the same thing before, to Drusilla. And it worked so why not try it again? Spike is a predatory rapist, rape and torture is his idea of fixing a relationship. Here's his line from "Lover's Walk": I'm gonna do what I shoulda done in the first place: I'll find her, wherever she is, tie her up, torture her until she likes me again.

He felt remorse. He felt guilt and badness for it.

It's not remorse, it's fear. Notice that Spike shows a sign of "remorse" after Buffy physically overpowers him and sends him flying, not before. He's not sorry, as a soulless vampire he cannot be. He's terrified.

 

[Kean]

He never said to himself "I"m gonna rape this girl". The thought never crossed his mind.

There's no way to tell what crossed his mind but the point about this issue is that people keep putting the decision on whether it was an attempted rape on the attempted rapist rather than the victim who's POV is really the important one here. It is determined to be attempted rape because Buffy repeatedly said no, she did not give consent, she tried to physically push him away from her and he ignored this and continued to try to aggressively force intercourse on her. It's the same principal as a couple having sex and one partner revoking consent during the intercourse. If the other partner continues engaging in intercourse without their partner's consent, that's rape. Regardless of what they were doing seconds earlier. No means no. If you ignore that and continue to pursue a sexual act, you are committing a sexual assault.

 

[Lyri]

but he thought no meant "convince me a little more" which is what it usually meant.

Not once, in he entire history of their sexual exploits up until that point, did we EVER see Buffy fighting so violently to get out of Spike's arms, we never saw her crying or screaming or begging him to let her go. That right there should have told Spike that there was something different about this time. It shouldn't have taken Buffy that much effort to get him to back off.

Yes, Buffy tried to deny that she wanted to Spike and she sent mixed signals, saying that she didn't want him and yet always coming back for more, but whenever they were getting down to it, she was always willing and didn't object at any point during the act itself. That she was objecting so vocally on that bathroom floor should have been enough to make Spike back off. It was NOTHING like any of the sex that they'd ever had before.

 

[EffyStonem]

I don't even know how to address what happened in SR without sounding Spike apologetic which I know will get me into hot water. But I saw a confused SOULLESS vampire who only knew violent sex with Buffy as doing what he thought was acceptable.Many times Buffy said she didn't want him, only to end up having sex with him. And in Spike's mind it was very hard to separate the events. Sure she said no, but he thought no meant "convince me a little more" which is what it usually meant.

I see this argument frequently and I really cannot stand it because it misses the point. You say that Buffy has said "no" on many occasions and that is where Spike's confusion comes from but this is untrue. Spike is not confused. He knows exactly what no means but he continues to ignore Buffy time and again when she says no or physically resists him. And yes, she gives in to him, but the fact that she has said "no" means that Spike doesn't respect her boundaries. No MEANS NO. The minute Buffy ever says "no" or tries to physically resist Spike, or tell him to stop he should have stopped. But he didn't. And he knew exactly what he was doing. Chances are if she had continued to say no in any of their previous encounters the attempted rape would have happened a lot earlier.

He thought it was okay. He never said to himself "I"m gonna rape this girl". The thought never crossed his mind. He just wanted her to admit they had something. This something she denied yet kept coming back for more. He was desperate. I don't see this as an unforgivable act because Spike didn't immediately know it was wrong. He thought this is just how things are. She says no, I say yes, we do it. It wasn't until she kicked him away and really showed him she meant no, that he understood, "hey something isn't right here". He felt remorse. He felt guilt and badness for it. But at the time it was happening, I don't think he knew it was wrong. I don't think he ever meant to rape Buffy. Not for a second. It was not his intention. He just wanted her to admit they had something between them which at the time was sex. They had that between them.

Spike knew it was wrong. Spike knows what rape is. He knew exactly what he was doing and whether or not he went to the Summers house intending to rape Buffy is irrelevant. What is relevant is the fact that he sexually assaulted Buffy and that is unforgivable under any circumstance.

He didn't know she was hurt. He didn't know she really meant no. He didn't grasp any of this because he was still soulless and also very confused by the signals Buffy had previously given him.

I repeat, NO ALWAYS MEANS NO. The only time "no" can mean "yes" is if you are a) roleplaying in a safe, secure environment with a safety word or b) are in a healthy relationship where playful "nos" are thrown around during sex. That's it. Other than that, once someone says no the other person needs to stop. And, as I said, Spike knew exactly what he was doing. Being soulless doesn't mean you don't know the difference between right and wrong; it just means you don't care.

So when I think of this scene I don't see it as an AR but Spike not understanding what Buffy was feeling and what she meant.

I - I can't even - not an attempted rape? Have you watched the scene?

I have hard time with this scene because it's brutal and painful but I also can't help but see it from Spike's POV. Buffy didn't deserve it or ask for it, yet she sent some incredibly mixed signals to a vampire who was soulless

Spike's POV doesn't matter in this scene. All that matters is what Buffy is being subjected to at his hands, regardless of motive or reason. And as for Buffy "sending mixed signals", can we please stop the victim blaming.