Spike's attempted rape on Buffy in "Seeing Red"

[shoshanna33]

I still see it as Spike not understanding what he was doing was wrong. Not at first. And I can be delusional, but I don't think he knew. Eventually, he knew. It was driven home for him very seriously when she kicked him away, but I just don't see the Spike that we knew up until that point, the Spike that would sacrifice himself to protect Dawn and never do harm to Buffy, as purposely knowing what he was doing. He didn't know. He was stupid. I don't blame Buffy, I just merely think that Spike didn't know how to react to her or when no really meant no. And being soulless it was that much harder for him to understand right and wrong. I can't look at him as I would a normal man because he was not a normal man, he was a soulless vampire. And the most you can give me is that Buffy was at least confusing to him. He had no sense of wrong or right and I don't believe he was there to 'torture her until she likes me again' like he did with Dru. He was trying to relate to Buffy in the only way she allowed him to relate to her. And that was sex. Once he realized she honestly meant no, he stopped and left and was horrified at his actions.

I just can't hold Spike accountable for a few seconds of insanity while soulless when after he gets his soul, he's remorseful and feels terrible for what happened. In this show you can't hold the demon accountable for his actions or else Buffy never could have forgiven Angel for what he did as Angelus.

 

[Black Eye Guy]

But it's so clear he knows exactly what he's doing

BUFFY: (yelling) No, stop it!
SPIKE: I know you felt it ... when I was inside you...

Close on his hands trying to open her robe. Sound of fabric ripping.

Buffy breaks partly free and starts crawling toward the door again. Spike grabs her ankle and pulls her back toward him, flips her over, pins her hands to the floor.

BUFFY: No, ow, ow! (sobbing) Please, please, Spike, please...
SPIKE: You'll feel it again, Buffy...
BUFFY: Please don't do this...
SPIKE: I'm gonna make you feel it.

He thinks she feels love when they have sex, so he's going to force himself into that circumstance again to prove he's right.

He knows exactly what he's doing, I don't think it was planned to be forced, but once he starts he plans to force it till he gets his way.

I also don't buy that he feels all that awful afterwards, he goes to get a soul cuz he still wants to prove to her that she love him. It's not about redeeming himself, or getting the soul to be a better man, he gets the soul to prove he's right and she's wrong.

SPIKE: Bitch is gonna see a change.

Not remorseful, angry and vengeful.

 

[EffyStonem]

I still see it as Spike not understanding what he was doing was wrong. Not at first. And I can be delusional, but I don't think he knew. Eventually, he knew. It was driven home for him very seriously when she kicked him away, but I just don't see the Spike that we knew up until that point, the Spike that would sacrifice himself to protect Dawn and never do harm to Buffy, as purposely knowing what he was doing.

Buffy was screaming, physically trying to resist him, begging him to stop and hysterically crying. Spike knows what that means. Spike has spent decades torturing, raping, killing and inflicting violence. He knows exactly what he is doing

He didn't know. He was stupid. I don't blame Buffy, I just merely think that Spike didn't know how to react to her or when no really meant no. And being soulless it was that much harder for him to understand right and wrong.

But not having a soul doesn't take way one's sense of right and wrong. Spike, Angelus, Darla, Drusilla, The Master, every vampire on the show knows the difference between right and wrong, otherwise they would not know what it is to be evil. Like I said before, having a soul simply makes them not care.

He was trying to relate to Buffy in the only way she allowed him to relate to her. And that was sex. Once he realized she honestly meant no, he stopped and left and was horrified at his actions.

Spike didn't stop - Buffy stopped him. He would have kept going. He would have raped her. And he is not truly horrified - in the crypt later one he asks Clem "Why didn't I do it". Which means that part of him truly wonders why he didn't keep going and that is horrifying.

 

[Gum Gnome33]

he asks Clem "Why didn't I do it". Which means that part of him truly wonders why he didn't keep going and that is horrifying.

Actually, I always interpreted this as a stark realization that he wasn't JUST a monster; by asking aloud "why didn't I do it," he was coming to terms with the fact that he had made progress--the Spike of last year WOULD have pressed on after being pushed off. He was remarking at the fact that he couldn't be a monster, but obviously couldn't be a man either, (a "man" would never have gone as far as he did).
There is a part of him that wishes that he could have gone through with it. If that were the case, he'd be able to identify as a monster as he had before and regain his place with the other vampires in spite of the fact that he couldn't kill on his own. He wouldn't have to worry any longer about longing for Buffy or for a world to which didn't belong. He'd know who he was: evil, through and through. Life would be easier.
But he didn't, and he wouldn't. Something, since falling in love with Buffy, had changed. So, now what? His anguish lies in this grey area and he decides to make a permanent change toward being the kind of man who would never hurt someone he loves.

That's my interpretation of that line, anyway.

 

[SlayerFest]

I really think it was an uncomfortable scene and maybe Joss went a little bit to far with this story line but people have to understand that this actually happens to innocent people living in this world some people are acting as if it is the most abnormal thing that they have ever heard!

Super late to this thread...but the point isn't that she was almost raped. I have no problem with violence in movies or on tv...for crying out loud A Clockwork Orange is one of my favorite movies. We are talking about how the rape was dealt with. There is sadly...nothing "abnormal" about rape. It happens too often. What is disgusting and appalling....is how the AR was (or wasn't) dealt with. I am not upset that an attempted rape took place on the show, I am upset with how the writers chose to deal with it.

 

[shoshanna33]

Super late to this thread...but the point isn't that she was almost raped. I have no problem with violence in movies or on tv...for crying out loud A Clockwork Orange is one of my favorite movies. We are talking about how the rape was dealt with. There is sadly...nothing "abnormal" about rape. It happens too often. What is disgusting and appalling....is how the AR was (or wasn't) dealt with. I am not upset that an attempted rape took place on the show, I am upset with how the writers chose to deal with it.

I have to agree with you there. It was never dealt with. Which is why I try to justify certain things in my mind because not only do I hate seeing what Spike did, I hate that Buffy didn't really seem to care all that much afterwards. It wasn't dealt with properly. So I try in my mind to say Spike didn't know what he was doing until it was too late. But that's just me. It was a subject they never delved into so all we have is conjecture to go on.

 

[Yosso]

I see Spike's AR as perfectly in character. Firstly, you have to remember he is still a *vampire*, and still naturally predisposed to evil.

Also, as a man AR was out of pure weakness and desperation. His attempt to own Buffy in a way he never could when they were sleeping together. Buffy was using him, not the other way round. It's an attempt to grasp his masculinity in the most unhealthy way possible.

I don't see the AR as cheap sensationalism or pointless. I think it's a key moment in Spike's character and necessary as part of his quest to get a soul

Though I do agree that the show should have focused more on Buffy's reaction to it rather than just Spike's. It's as though she was hardly affected by it afterwards. Although she has little fear physically from Spike, the AR must have had some psychological implications which we weren't shown.

 

[marie21]

I was shocked the first time I saw it.

I watched the episode again last night and again, I was shaken by this scene which is very violent!! but at the same time, very realistic and very well played by both actors!!

I remember seeing that scene... it felt just awful, uncomfortable, wrong. I never saw Spike the same way again.

It felt kind of out of context and I didn't expect it at all.

well, I didn't expect it to happen in that episode.
I admit that the writing of these episodes is a bit sloppy there. I mean, they were on speaking terms at the wedding of Anya and Xander, Spike was even nice towards her... Then in the next episode, he's bitter again, wants Buffy to tell her friends about their affair. Next episode, same thing between Buffy and Spike. Obviously he doesn't take their break-up very well. He sleeps with Anya , that was unintentional but everyone saw it, including Buffy. I think that what hurts her more was what he said bitterly to Xander "it was good enough for Buffy".

what I expected though was that he wouldn't let go...I didn't expect him to be that violent, but I expected him to try to get back in control...
Sorry to all Spuffy die hard fans, but for me, from the beginning, their affair felt wrong and sorry again, but I don't really blame Buffy. It seems like she was using him but the truth is that Spike found a weakness in her and manipulated her. From the beginning, he wanted to control her and everytime he told her nasty things after they slept together, I really cringed! for a while, he had some kind of power over her because he knew how to hurt her...I never bought the whole "Spike loves Buffy even without a soul". For me, it's just an obsession, just like what Angelus felt for Buffy in S2! The difference with Spike is that it's mingled with a desire to control her! That's not "love" for me, if it implies controlling someone else and preying on his weakness.
And he's a vampire who has killed two slayers, who has killed I-don't-know-how-many- of people. So, for me, this scene is not inconsistent considering his personnality and the fact that he wants to take control back again.