Spike's attempted rape

[JReed1985]

I don't know about anyone, but the scene when Spike tries to rape Buffy when she was taking a shower after she injured her back. There's a part of me that will never forgive Spike for what he did.
Didn't anyone else feel the way I do and went a little off Spike?

 

[white avenger]

I think that that scene was the all time low point in the Buffy/Spike relationship, but as much as I hate it, I have come to believe that it was necessary for Spike's evolution as a character. Without something that extreme, that horrible, he would never have realized that, without a soul, he would always be just a monster with an electronic gadget inside his skull to restrain his predatory vampiric nature. At the end of Season 5, he even told Buffy, "I know you'll never love me. I know that I'm a monster." He forgot that for awhile in Season 6. He began to believe that Buffy COULD love the monster. "Seeing Red" reminded him of what he had forgotten.

More importantly, it convinced him that the only real chance that he would ever have with Buffy, the only way that he could convince her that he was worthy of her love, was to do the unthinkable. To actually, willingly, regain his soul, not as a curse or a punishment, but as a reward, a prize, something that he actually had to fight to attain, and, in so doing, convince Buffy that he could, indeed, become a better man, a man who she might possibly even love one day.

Without "Seeing Red," none of that would ever have happened. I still don't like that scene, but I do now understand why it was necessary.

 

[Black Eye Guy]

It didn't put me off the character any more then I already was, at that stage I just didn't care for the character, he was boring to me.

I think the set up to it made perfect sense, he was used to Buffy saying no, so he was in a similar circumstance. He took it to far because he had no soul.

The main thing that actually annoyed me about this incident was the fan reaction/feedback. How people try and justify it, by saying things like

'he's so good he didn't keep going' - Buffy kicked him off her, get a grip.

'it's not rape, he didn't have sex with her and he wouldn't have' / 'He wasn't aware of what he was doing' - He literately says "I know you felt it ... when I was inside you...You'll feel it again, Buffy...I'm gonna make you feel it". He is aware she doesn't want to have sex with him, he doesn't care becasue he think she love him. So he's going to force her to have sex with him to prove it to her.

Then there's the picking and choosing of whats okay and whats not, so if he did something good in season 5/6 it's trotted out like the greatest thing since slice bread, but then mention the attempted rape and it's all "he was soulless, he was a evil vampire, but he has a soul now, he's fixed"... People want to see Spike as a character who grew through season 4/5/6 and grew to the souled point in season 7, but dont want to see the attempted rape as something he's responsible for, even though it is after any good stuff, so if souled Spike gets credibility for anything good he did, he should be held accountable for the bad to.

Aside from the fan justification, the writers deciding to ignore the topic after they planted it was also stupid, although I'd say that could be becasue of fan reaction as well as there was such outrage when it aired, they just dropped the issue in season 7. So the message became it's okay to try and rape someone becasue if you do something good enough (get a soul) it will fix it.

---------- Post added at 11:52 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:41 AM ----------

More importantly, it convinced him that the only real chance that he would ever have with Buffy, the only way that he could convince her that he was worthy of her love, was to do the unthinkable. To actually, willingly, regain his soul, not as a curse or a punishment, but as a reward, a prize, something that he actually had to fight to attain, and, in so doing, convince Buffy that he could, indeed, become a better man, a man who she might possibly even love one day.

Oh this to, I forgot this romantic version of how he got his soul. It's nice, but it's nothing like what happened in the show, and I've never understood how people come to this version unless you watched the show on mute.

He got his soul for the same reason he tried to rape her, to prove to her that she loved him, not to prove his love for her. He did it to say "Ha, I was right" not "look what I've done for you". Everything he says in the show says he's doing it to prove a point, and I'm not talking about any of the removing the chip false leads.

He calls her bitch, and says how she thinks she's better then him, nothing that actually happens in those scenes says romantic love/proving he's worthy of her love it's the same motive that lead to his attempted rape, he thinks she already loved him and he wanted to prove it to her spitefully.

 

[Kean]

Personally, I'll never forgive the writers for this. To bring up this issue and then to frame it in a way that permeates of rape culture. Buffy isn't present in the story, it's all about Spike and "how much it changed him." I honestly find that narrative disgusting. It walks a dangerous line of suggesting that attempting to rape Buffy was a good thing because look how good he is now.

Oh this to, I forgot this romantic version of how he got his soul. It's nice, but it's nothing like what happened in the show, and I've never understood how people come to this version unless you watched the show on mute.

He got his soul for the same reason he tried to rape her, to prove to her that she loved him, not to prove his love for her. He did it to say "Ha, I was right" not "look what I've done for you". Everything he says in the show says he's doing it to prove a point, and I'm not talking about any of the removing the chip false leads.

He calls her bitch, and says how she thinks she's better then him, nothing that actually happens in those scenes says romantic love/proving he's worthy of her love it's the same motive that lead to his attempted rape, he thinks she already loved him and he wanted to prove it to her spitefully.

Exactly. Spike sought out a soul because it would eliminate Buffy's "excuse" for not loving him. If he had a soul that reason wouldn't exist anymore and then she'd have to love him. Even in getting a soul he was trying to force himself on her.

 

[Robb Stark]

Ridiculously stupid scene on behalf of the writers. No matter what they were hoping to accomplish with Spike and Buffy as characters, there's no excuse for constructing that scene at all, as [MENTION=7585]Kean[/MENTION] said so well. The underlying message it sends is "just tell the girl you're sorry loud enough and long enough and she'll forgive you".

As a character, purely as a fan, you can't "blame" Spike, anymore than you can blame Angel for the things Angelus did. In all honesty, I don't really understand why there's so much confusion about this. Spike, prior to S7, was a soulless vampire. He may have done the occasional good thing (which the vast majority of the time was done out of pure self-interest), but he was a monster. Hell, he himself said so many, many times. He tries to rape Buffy, has an internal crisis because he just realized he permanently torpedoed any chance he'd ever have with her, and so he went out and fought for his soul.

Is that tough? Absolutely. Is it impressive? Hell yes. But it it romantic? Is it the shining heart of a good person, just waiting to burst free? No. No it isn't. If it was, he wouldn't have talked about Buffy the way he did in that cave. He wouldn't have called her "bitch" repeatedly and talked about how "bitch is gonna get what she deserves". He just wouldn't, and I don't see how any fan can see it otherwise.

At the same time though, unless you want to drive yourself insane as a fan, you can't hold Spike beyond S6 responsible for attempting to rape Buffy. Would Spike in S7 have done anything even remotely like that? No he wouldn't have, just as Angel wouldn't have done anything like Angelus did.

It's a stupid scene that gets talked about way to much.

 

[white avenger]

Every time that we have this discussion, I am reminded of this poem

The Blind Men and the Elephant
John Godfrey Saxe (1816-1887)

It was six men of Indostan
To learning much inclined,
Who went to see the Elephant
(Though all of them were blind),
That each by observation
Might satisfy his mind.

The First approached the Elephant,
And happening to fall
Against his broad and sturdy side,
At once began to bawl:
"God bless me! but the Elephant
Is very like a WALL!"

The Second, feeling of the tusk,
Cried, "Ho, what have we here,
So very round and smooth and sharp?
To me 'tis mighty clear
This wonder of an Elephant
Is very like a SPEAR!"

The Third approached the animal,
And happening to take
The squirming trunk within his hands,
Thus boldly up and spake:
"I see," quoth he, "the Elephant
Is very like a SNAKE!"

The Fourth reached out an eager hand,
And felt about the knee
"What most this wondrous beast is like
Is mighty plain," quoth he:
"'Tis clear enough the Elephant
Is very like a TREE!"

The Fifth, who chanced to touch the ear,
Said: "E'en the blindest man
Can tell what this resembles most;
Deny the fact who can,
This marvel of an Elephant
Is very like a FAN!"

The Sixth no sooner had begun
About the beast to grope,
Than seizing on the swinging tail
That fell within his scope,
"I see," quoth he, "the Elephant
Is very like a ROPE!"

And so these men of Indostan
Disputed loud and long,
Each in his own opinion
Exceeding stiff and strong,
Though each was partly in the right,
And all were in the wrong!

Each of us sees what we want to see in the actions of Spike in general and "Seeing Red" in particular. each of us is right from our own point of view, but we can't, or won't, accept or even consider the views of the other blind men (and women) I've always wondered why there is so much dissension about this single character while others are just as guilty of their own particular crimes and acts of heroism, and their character and motives are never, or at least seldom questioned.

Spike is neither the saint that his defenders claim him to be nor the devil that his detractors accuse him of being, but trying to get the majority to accept that fact seems to be an impossibility. As for me personally, I wouldn't feel nearly as duty bound to defend the character if it weren't for the people who seem driven to see nothing but the bad in him.

Plus, it's just so much fun aggravating Miss K.

 

[Kean]

Each of us sees what we want to see in the actions of Spike in general and "Seeing Red" in particular. each of us is right from our own point of view, but we can't, or won't, accept or even consider the views of the other blind men (and women) I've always wondered why there is so much dissension about this single character while others are just as guilty of their own particular crimes and acts of heroism, and their character and motives are never, or at least seldom questioned.

You must be talking about a different board because on this one everyone is free game. Angel, Buffy, Xander, Willow, Giles, Anya... everyone has been put to task. You just take exception to your boy being called out.

Spike is neither the saint that his defenders claim him to be nor the devil that his detractors accuse him of being, but trying to get the majority to accept that fact seems to be an impossibility. As for me personally, I wouldn't feel nearly as duty bound to defend the character if it weren't for the people who seem driven to see nothing but the bad in him.

Oh please, don't even pretend to act like you are the neutral, middle ground in all of this. Your POV is as partisan as mine is.

Plus, it's just so much fun aggravating Miss K.

:eviltongu

 

[itssmiletime]

I despise the scene and the aftermath so, so, so much. And I'm not the only one, so yeah, I agree. Kean and Robb Stark have pretty much established the core problems with it, but I'll add some things that I haven't mentioned here yet.

Whenever people say that it was 'necessary', I could not disagree more. There are alot of other methods Spike could have achieved his soul. In OMWF, his song 'Rest In Peace' is all about how Buffy is willing to talk to him about her problems- yet still shows shame about him and not is willing to talk to her friends about Spike. Isn't that enough reason to seek a soul? Buffy had repeatedly told him that he is a soulless monster, prior to Seeing Red. She made it perfectly clear in Crush that she dated Angel, the souled vampire, making the distinction between Angel and a neutred vampire.

I understand that my ideas above are fairytale-ish, dull from a storytelling perspective and unrealistic, but I would much prefer them than what we got. The fact they went with an extremely triggering scene, followed by Spike's pain, not Buffy's, speaks volumes. Also, if you ever rewatch Seeing Red and want to skip the AR, you can't. The next chapter starts right at the middle of the AR- not kidding. It's a scene that was chucked right into the viewers face, followed by incredibly manipulative and gross scenes of Spike's pain and so called 'redemption'.

 

[white avenger]

Oh please, don't even pretend to act like you are the neutral, middle ground in all of this. Your POV is as partisan as mine is.

I never have even pretended to be neutral on the subject of Spike. I said that I wouldn't need to be so outspoken about that lack neutrality if it weren't for the constant attacks on his character and motivation in every act and statement that he ever said. Spike colored glasses can either magnify his good qualities or blind someone to them, as well as blind, or at least attempt to justify, his bad actions, or magnify them.

 

[Kean]

I never have even pretended to be neutral on the subject of Spike. I said that I wouldn't need to be so outspoken about that lack neutrality if it weren't for the constant attacks on his character and motivation in every act and statement that he ever said. Spike colored glasses can either magnify his good qualities or blind someone to them, as well as blind, or at least attempt to justify, his bad actions, or magnify them.

Why defend his actions in this particular scene at all? Attempted rape can't and shouldn't be romanticised. I pass no apologies for voicing my distaste at his actions. Or apparently "forcing" you to come to his defense. Nor will I sway in my assessment for his motivations for getting a soul. Quite frankly, I still don't believe he was even going for a soul, but canon is canon. The Spike we saw preparing to "give that bitch what she deserves" was not acting of love, not love as I understand it. It was vengeful and hateful. I'm not stretching the story by any means by suggesting that he went to get a soul, not because he was a man who wanted to change, but because he thought the next time he made sexual advances towards her she might not kick him across a room if he had one.

 

[white avenger]

I don't defend Spike's attempted rape any more than I defend his plot with Adam. What I do is try and give my opinion as to why that scene was done and why it was the required catalyst in Spike's motivation in seeking out a way to regain his soul.

 

[Black Eye Guy]

Each of us sees what we want to see in the actions of Spike in general and "Seeing Red" in particular. each of us is right from our own point of view, but we can't, or won't, accept or even consider the views of the other blind men (and women) I've always wondered why there is so much dissension about this single character while others are just as guilty of their own particular crimes and acts of heroism, and their character and motives are never, or at least seldom questioned.

That is not true at all. No other characters actions are excused like Spikes are, no one justifies Angels actions, the show depicts them as separate and still Angel is shown as a character seeking redemption, and you never see an Angel fan saying "hes done enough now, let him become human now." but with Spike his actions are excused while the show says there is a connection between souled and unsouled Spike.

and I'm sorry but it's not a case of all of us seeing what we want it's a case of people seeing the show and Spike-fans seeing their excuses.

How do you justify how Spike speaks about getting his soul, about how "they bitch is gonna see a change" or how Buffy can't love him becasue she see's herself as better then her.
Can you give any sources from the show in the final 3 episodes of season 6, that supports the argument that Spike got his soul back for noble/romantic reasons?

 

[white avenger]

That is not true at all. No other characters actions are excused like Spikes are, no one justifies Angels actions, the show depicts them as separate and still Angel is shown as a character seeking redemption, and you never see an Angel fan saying "hes done enough now, let him become human now." but with Spike his actions are excused while the show says there is a connection between souled and unsouled Spike.

and I'm sorry but it's not a case of all of us seeing what we want it's a case of people seeing the show and Spike-fans seeing their excuses.

How do you justify how Spike speaks about getting his soul, about how "they bitch is gonna see a change" or how Buffy can't love him becasue she see's herself as better then her.
Can you give any sources from the show in the final 3 episodes of season 6, that supports the argument that Spike got his soul back for noble/romantic reasons?

You just proved my point for me. Thanks.

 

[Black Eye Guy]

You just proved my point for me. Thanks.

How?

cuz I see no sources in your post to back up the argument you made above? Where are you getting your information about Spike getting a soul for romantic reasons?

You say in your post that no one seems to ask more questions then about this scene and the reason is no one actually give factual proof to their arguments. Every other argument in BtVS requires and source and backup, so the same should apply to this topic, where are the sources for Spike going for a soul for noble reasons?

 

[Lyri]

I don't think I'll ever get over this scene or forgive the writers for thinking it was a good idea to write an attempted rape storyline without giving the right and proper screen time to the only person who matters in this scene - THE VICTIM.

I couldn't care less about Spike, I pretty much think he should have been dusted after 'Crush', but I absolutely HATE the fact that everything that came out of this scene revolved around SPIKE when the only person we should have been caring about was BUFFY.

Do we even know how she felt, knowing that someone she trusted at one point tried to violate her in the most intimate way possible? No, we don't, because everything after that scene revolved around Buffy stopping a deranged Willow from trying to end the world, meaning she didn't have time to even think about it, and the only reaction we actually got was how it affected SPIKE, the ATTACKER. It's such bad, lazy writing.

Afterwards, we're left with a three month long gap, during which the only thing we know is that Buffy was trying to teach Dawn how to fight and Xander was building a new school.

The MINUTE Buffy finds out that Spike is back in town, it's back to being all about him and the fact that he now has a soul, meaning that Buffy can't bring herself to hold him responsible for what he did to her in that bathroom, and it once again becomes all about Spike.

I'm not saying that Spike should have been dusted the second Buffy saw him in 'Lessons', but what I AM saying is that there damn well should have been some sort of dialogue between the two of them during which Buffy explained how she felt and how she dealt with what happened. It's all well and good saying that Buffy has moved on because she knows that Spike has a soul now and isn't the same monster that was in that bathroom, but for three months she DIDN'T know that. For all she knew, Spike was off trying to get the chip out. She had no idea that he was off getting himself a soul.

I understand that there is a need or at least a call for rape in certain TV shows and movies - like SVU, for example - but in this case, it was completely uncalled for. In a storyline like this, the victim should be the most important person, it is their reactions and feelings that should be explored and it should be about getting justice for them.

It should NOT be about how remorseful the attacker is and how sorry they are and how they swear they're going to change.

The thing I most take away from this scene is James Marsters' reaction. He was horrified when he found out what he had to do. He was disgusted. He tried to get the writers to change their minds. He was physically ill after he filmed that scene. That right there speaks volumes to me.

 

[Black Eye Guy]

How?

cuz I see no sources in your post to back up the argument you made above? Where are you getting your information about Spike getting a soul for romantic reasons?

You say in your post that no one seems to ask more questions then about this scene and the reason is no one actually give factual proof to their arguments. Every other argument in BtVS requires and source and backup, so the same should apply to this topic, where are the sources for Spike going for a soul for noble reasons?

Just to be clear anyone can answer this, not just WA, if he doesn't know of any. I'd love for someone to point out any of the proof for the romanticized version of how Spike got his soul, not just "oh he did it for love" but actual evidence to back that up?

🙂

 

[EVIL UU]

[MENTION=5973]Black Eye Guy[/MENTION]

The main thing that actually annoyed me about this incident was the fan reaction/feedback. How people try and justify it

Rape is the most popular sexual fantasy among women, now take into consideration that most of the ardent Spike's fans are female. Long story short, a cognitive dissonance between the sexual and the intellectual is born and to reduce it those fans come up with a giant pile of utterly baseless intellectual garbage instead of just admitting that the scene turns them on. Add some usual terminal Spike/Buffy, character idealization and over-identification and all this bullshit is what you get.

 

[Gum Gnome33]

Just to be clear anyone can answer this, not just WA, if he doesn't know of any. I'd love for someone to point out any of the proof for the romanticized version of how Spike got his soul, not just "oh he did it for love" but actual evidence to back that up?🙂

I'll keep this short as I've answered this question many times by citing direct quotes from the creators and writers of the show in which they state very clearly that his intention all along was to get a soul. Yes it's true that you won't find obvious dialogue in the last 3 episodes of 6 in which he reveals this because his words and actions are meant to be a misdirect, (as the writers/director/Joss have explained to us). Their entire plan (albeit a ridiculous one) was for us to believe he might be getting the chip removed and as a result the dialogue intentionally points us in that direction. In "Beneath You" of course we have Spike's confession that he did it "for her, to be hers" and to "be the kind of man that would never...to be a kind of man" but I'm assuming you're not interested in this justification because it comes post soul? That's fair enough.

But here's a thought: Spike could obviously hurt Buffy as much as he pleased with the chip still very much in place. He could also kill/destroy the lives of all of her loved ones even while chipped. Mind games, minions, setting the house on fire. They all trusted him at that point, it'd have been so easy to lead them into a deadly trap of his choosing. If he wanted revenge on Buffy for rejecting him, he didn't need to go to Africa, enduring torture to get it.

Do we even know how she felt, knowing that someone she trusted at one point tried to violate her in the most intimate way possible? No, we don't, because everything after that scene revolved around Buffy stopping a deranged Willow from trying to end the world, meaning she didn't have time to even think about it, and the only reaction we actually got was how it affected SPIKE, the ATTACKER. It's such bad, lazy writing.

[MENTION=6332]Lyri[/MENTION], I completely agree with you. There is also no attempt to explore how she is coping after having a fight to the death against her best friend. It is bad writing and it's lazy; there is a push for a resolution so that season 7 can move forward with probably the most lame "big bad" they've ever devised.

And I fully admit that the push for Spuffy in season 7 is responsible for the lack of discussion where Spike's transgressions and Buffy's state of comfort (or lack thereof) are concerned. Again, everything is rushed. But what I do think they handled well is the nature of their relationship in the aftermath of the previous season. There is no physical intimacy (except for that one scene in question) and more importantly Spike makes no move to resume a physical relationship with Buffy. I think that's really important. I like that the season opens the possibility for a romantic relationship between them but focuses on their bond as friends as well, now that Spike is ensouled and ready to stand by her side.

But (and please guys don't jump down my throat as I bring up this parallel--it's certainly happened before), the show is known for not addressing the deeds of certain vampires in the aftermath, after they have been re-ensouled. Look. Angelus tried to murder Buffy and her friends and family--he killed Jenny. He comes back newly ensouled and the two resume their relationship.

I of course don't bring that up as a means of saying "since she forgave one she obviously has to forgive the other" or "look if it's been done already that makes it ok." Because it doesn't. And I mention it because this recurring means of "moving on" is actually one of the biggest problems I have with the show. By season 7 there is this precedent for irresponsible writing--measures to avoid and dodge do nothing to address the state of the victims as they embrace their would-be attackers. And yes the writers sort of give us an out with this tabula rasa that is the ensouled vampire but as has been said, coping is never addressed.

Obviously one of the main differences is that Spike had been able to achieve a certain level of humanity (and Buffy's trust along with it) while soulless, before the regression that was Seeing Red. When he attacked her, she trusted him not to. Whereas Angelus was never a "grey area," never anything but a monster so where he was concerned Buffy probably felt far more grief (and guilt, actually) than she did betrayal.

But in both cases, we see that Buffy is more than eager to put the past behind her, embracing each vampire and implicitly forgiving almost immediately. And in this case as I said above the tabula rasa of the soul makes the choice much more conveniently simple. But for the sake of those watching who have endured something similar, I agree that the thought process needs to have been addressed.

Personally I'm not sure how they could have done it in a way that was both responsible and healthy, while continuing to forward the plot. What do you guys think?

 

[Black Eye Guy]

I'll keep this short as I've answered this question many times by citing direct quotes from the creators and writers of the show in which they state very clearly that his intention all along was to get a soul. Yes it's true that you won't find obvious dialogue in the last 3 episodes of 6 in which he reveals this because his words and actions are meant to be a misdirect, (as the writers/director/Joss have explained to us). Their entire plan (albeit a ridiculous one) was for us to believe he might be getting the chip removed and as a result the dialogue intentionally points us in that direction. In "Beneath You" of course we have Spike's confession that he did it "for her, to be hers" and to "be the kind of man that would never...to be a kind of man" but I'm assuming you're not interested in this justification because it comes post soul? That's fair enough.

But like I said in my original post, I'm not talking about the misdirect. The misdirect was to make the viewer believe Spike was going to get his chip out.

I agree there was never an intention to get the chip out, it was always about the soul. But the misdirect doesn't cover his motive for getting the soul.

Some of the bits I think are clear misdirect:

SPIKE: You know, everything used to be so clear. Slayer. Vampire. Vampire kills Slayer, sucks her dry, picks his teeth with her bones. It's always been that way. I've tasted the life of two Slayers. But with Buffy... (grimacing in anguish) It isn't supposed to be this way!

SPIKE: (angrily) It's the chip! Steel and wires and silicon. (sighs) It won't let me be a monster. (quietly) And I can't be a man. I'm nothing.

SPIKE: Get nice and comfy, Slayer. I'll be back. And when I do ... things are gonna change.

DEMON: And you want to return to your former self.
SPIKE: Yeah.

SPIKE: It's this bloody chip-

SPIKE: So you'll give me what I want. Make me what I was. So Buffy can get what she deserves.

But not all the language is a misdirect, I dont see how this applies to Spike wanting to get his chip out:

SPIKE: (nods, barely concealed anger) Thinks she's better than me. Ever since I got this bleeding chip in my head, things ain't been right. Everything's gone to hell.

SPIKE: Bitch is gonna see a change.

Why would Buffy think she's better then him becasue he has a chip, I dont see how Spike could think that if he were getting his chip out, he's clearly talking about getting a soul.

I agree that there is a misdirect, but if you rewatch the scene knowing it's his soul he wants everything he says still applies, but none of points towards a romantic, doing it for the girl reasons people say. It definitely implies he's doing it to prove she love him, becasue he believes she does and the only thing stopping her is his lack of a soul.

Even the language he uses after getting a soul says the same thing to me:

SPIKE
Hey, hey, hey! No touching. Am I flesh? Am I flesh to you? Feed on flesh. My flesh. Nothing else. Not a spark. (nods) Oh, fine. Flesh then. Solid through. (starts unzipping his pants) Get it hard; service the girl.

Buffy is disgusted and smacks his hands away from his pants.

BUFFY
Stop it!

Spike reflexively reaches up and grabs her by the throat. Buffy grabs his shoulder and throws him across the room. Spike lands on top of some pews, breaking them into pieces. He sits up a little, propped on his elbows behind him.

SPIKE
Right. Girl doesn't want to be serviced. Because there's no spark. Ain't we in a soddin' engine?

Whats the spark? That entire exchange says he's talking about love, he thought getting his soul would mean instant love from Buffy, becasue he believed she already love him, and now with a soul she could accept that.
So he tries once again to initiate sex, but Buffy smacks him down and he realizes there is no spark/love there (For the sake of argument, leaving what you think developed later in season 7 between them aside, at this stage she didn't love him, she cared for him, but she never loved him while he didn't have a soul - what develops during season 7 is an entirely different argument)

SPIKE
I think they were dreams. So weak. Did you make me weak, thinking of you, holding myself, and spilling useless buckets of salt over your... ending? Angel"”he should've warned me. He makes a good show of forgetting, but it's here, in me, all the time. (walks around toward her from behind) The spark. I wanted to give you what you deserve, and I got it. They put the spark in me and now all it does is burn.

This to me again is all about love, he thought getting soul would make Buffy accept it, Buffy would feel it. He hadn't full comprehended what getting the soul involves, and now he sees it's all about him, there's no change on Buffys side, it's all on his.

SPIKE
She shall look on him with forgiveness, and everybody will forgive and love. He will be loved.

this ones important too, as it shows more of the same, he believed getting the soul meant instant forgiveness and love, but after getting it he realizes what it actually means.

But here's a thought: Spike could obviously hurt Buffy as much as he pleased with the chip still very much in place. He could also kill/destroy the lives of all of her loved ones even while chipped. Mind games, minions, setting the house on fire. They all trusted him at that point, it'd have been so easy to lead them into a deadly trap of his choosing. If he wanted revenge on Buffy for rejecting him, he didn't need to go to Africa, enduring torture to get it.

I also never mentioned the word revenge, getting his soul was about proof. He wanted to get his soul so he could prove to Buffy, not that he was a great man, but prove that she loved him but couldn't accept him without a soul. He wanted to get a soul so she could let herself love him, and again leaving what you think could develop over season 7 aside, he believed in season 6 she loved him, and a soul meant instant acceptance, which it wasn't.

But (and please guys don't jump down my throat as I bring up this parallel--it's certainly happened before), the show is known for not addressing the deeds of certain vampires in the aftermath, after they have been re-ensouled. Look. Angelus tried to murder Buffy and her friends and family--he killed Jenny. He comes back newly ensouled and the two resume their relationship.

I of course don't bring that up as a means of saying "since she forgave one she obviously has to forgive the other" or "look if it's been done already that makes it ok." Because it doesn't. And I mention it because this recurring means of "moving on" is actually one of the biggest problems I have with the show. By season 7 there is this precedent for irresponsible writing--measures to avoid and dodge do nothing to address the state of the victims as they embrace their would-be attackers. And yes the writers sort of give us an out with this tabula rasa that is the ensouled vampire but as has been said, coping is never addressed.

Obviously one of the main differences is that Spike had been able to achieve a certain level of humanity (and Buffy's trust along with it) while soulless, before the regression that was Seeing Red. When he attacked her, she trusted him not to. Whereas Angelus was never a "grey area," never anything but a monster so where he was concerned Buffy probably felt far more grief (and guilt, actually) than she did betrayal.

But in both cases, we see that Buffy is more than eager to put the past behind her, embracing each vampire and implicitly forgiving almost immediately. And in this case as I said above the tabula rasa of the soul makes the choice much more conveniently simple. But for the sake of those watching who have endured something similar, I agree that the thought process needs to have been addressed.

Personally I'm not sure how they could have done it in a way that was both responsible and healthy, while continuing to forward the plot. What do you guys think?

I mostly agree with that, the only problem I have is, this reason is brought out when needed. The rest of the time it's "Spike is different, he was capable of love and growth as a souless vampire". In the thread about would Anglus have gone like Spike if he was chipped thread a while back, I think the majority of people said he wouldn't, and one for the reasons was Spike was different. I just dont think you can call him different when its for good, and then compare him to Angel to draw the parallel when it's for the bad.

 

[Gum Gnome33]

I agree there was never an intention to get the chip out, it was always about the soul. But the misdirect doesn't cover his motive for getting the soul.

I see what you mean. That's true, it doesn't. I mean we have the writers' explanation but it is still vague as to the exact motivation.

I agree that there is a misdirect, but if you rewatch the scene knowing it's his soul he wants everything he says still applies, but none of points towards a romantic, doing it for the girl reasons people say. It definitely implies he's doing it to prove she love him, becasue he believes she does and the only thing stopping her is his lack of a soul.

Yeah I mean it's tricky to call it "romantic" because of course Spike is still soulless when the decision is made. But romance is relative of course. Spike thought bringing Dru birds to eat or whatever was super romantic because it was, for a vampire. So I think he might have thought that getting a soul for Buffy would be interpreted as a grand, romantic gesture in the aftermath of his assault.

But it's more than that; you touched on it above--it's his lack of soul that prevents her from loving him. When she breaks up with him she says " I CAN'T love you and it's killing me." It's clear to him that he needs what Angel has: a soul. And you're right, I think this is clearly the "spark; the missing piece" that makes him whole. But he's not entirely wrong to see it that way--indeed he isn't whole without the soul and his assault on Buffy is the proof. Therefore the assault is a catalyst (albeit a terrible one on the part of the writers) toward getting the soul.
And for sure the reasoning is totally selfish: love girl, want girl, get soul so girl will love me. But that logic/course of action is not exactly unique to soulless beings 🙂

He wanted to get a soul so she could let herself love him, and again leaving what you think could develop over season 7 aside, he believed in season 6 she loved him, and a soul meant instant acceptance, which it wasn't.

I agree.

I mostly agree with that, the only problem I have is, this reason is brought out when needed. The rest of the time it's "Spike is different, he was capable of love and growth as a souless vampire". In the thread about would Anglus have gone like Spike if he was chipped thread a while back, I think the majority of people said he wouldn't, and one for the reasons was Spike was different. I just dont think you can call him different when its for good, and then compare him to Angel to draw the parallel when it's for the bad.

I honestly can't say, if exposed to the same phenomena (chip, group acceptance, etc) that Angelus wouldn't go down the same path as Spike--I'm not ruling it out.

The thing is that it's not hypocritical/inconsistent to say that Spike and Angelus were different in some ways and similar in others. Spike did good while soulless but eventually regressed, gave into his demon and attacked Buffy. Angelus was always pure evil. In terms of how they are to be viewed post attack, I think there has to be consistency, (either forgive both or neither) because the parallel is obvious. Both vampires attacked Buffy because of their soulessness, and both are asking to be forgiven because they are now ensouled. That's the parallel.

Both transgressed royally against their former lover. The reason it gets tricky is because as a soulless vampire Spike had earned himself a level of her trust and her compassion and so when he attacked her it was an actual betrayal. With Angelus, his reversion to evil was the result of their union and a lack of information--therefore his transgression is (conveniently) not exactly through fault of his own--he was arguably compelled to act as he did. Conversely Spike had progressed to a point where he had shown that he'd learned to understand the difference between good and evil, making his attack arguably worse because of the weight of it.

I suppose it's like if you encountered a lion who tried to eat you, you couldn't really blame the lion because that's what he's compelled to do. But if you trained a lion and befriended it and invited it into your home and it eventually tried to eat you, the act would be more profoundly hurtful.

So I understand I guess the notion that Spike's act can be considered worse-- but that assumes that one acknowledges that he was worthy of trust before he committed it. The inconsistency I see with some fans is that they aren't willing to admit that Spike made some progress toward understanding the difference between good and evil yet they treat Spike's transgression toward Buffy as though it was worse than Angelus's. In order for it to be considered worse, we have to acknowledge that it was a betrayal in addition to an act of violence (whereas with Angelus it was murder at the hands of--essentially--a stranger). So if we acknowledge that Spike should have known better, we also acknowledge that he'd made progress toward that knowledge of his own will, (clearly I see it as an intentional act to better himself for Buffy's approval in seasons 5 and 6). And he deserves credit for this. And that credit doesn't take away from the chastisement he deserves for his attack in season 6; in fact it adds to it (the blame).

Do you see what I'm saying?