Spikes Lack Of A Soul

[TheHalfBreed]

Something I dont understand is why after attempting to rape Buffy would Spike go in search of a soul? Sure he loved her but love dosen't give you a consience and thats exactly what vampires lack, so why did he go in search of one if he didn't feel bad about trying to rape her and make amends?
It just dosent sit right with me, if he was truly souless he would of raped her and laughed about it even if he loved her. Maybe he could of slowly started to regain a soul bit by bit after the help he's given the scoobies over the years?

 

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

something i dont understand is why after attempting to rape buffy would spike go in search of a soul? sure he loved her but love dosent give you a consience and thats exactly what vampires lack, so why did he go in search of one if he didnt feel bad about trying to rape her and make amends?
it just dosent sit right with me, if he was truly souless he would of raped her and laugthed about it even if he loved her. maybe he could of slowly started to regain a soul bit by bit after the help he's given the scoobies over the years?

Yes, I think that was part of it. After Spike was made into a vampire, for some reason a little bit of his humanity remained. This little bit of humanity still left in him allowed him to have the capacity to have the desire to be the only vampire to seek out a soul willingly.

Spike went in search of a soul because of exactly what he said - to give Buffy "what she deserved", i.e. a "real" man with a soul. Spike was different. He was an anomaly in the 'verse. He had the capacity to love without a soul, hence the guilt he felt over the attempted rape.

 

[Kitten Poker]

Spike went in search of a soul because of exactly what he said - to give Buffy "what she deserved", i.e. a "real" man with a soul. Spike was different. He was an anomaly in the 'verse. He had the capacity to love without a soul, hence the guilt he felt over the attempted rape.

This. He loved her and yet she always made it clear that his "monsterness" disgusted her, that it meant they could never have more because he wasn't human. Personally I don't think his decision to get his soul was spur of the moment, I think it had been building up for a while. His rejection by both Buffy and the Scoobies... I think the idea was probably sparked around the time he had Anya in The Magic Box and Xander's (very callous) speech after it. I think that would hurt William's feelings and make him realise what he had to do. The attempted rape was the final straw in a long sequence.

The thing that seemed odd to me was that the challenges he had to go through to get it all seemed to involve fighting, although of course we don;t see all of them. Shouldn't he have had to write an essay about why he should get it back or something? 😛

 

[white avenger]

I have always liked to think that Spike, once he began a friendly association with the Summers women, restrained himself from doing them any harm initially through sheer force of will. He and Joyce became friends long before the chip, when he could have harmed or even killed her without a single qualm. At the beginning of Season 5, when the demon bikers were wrecking Sunnydale, he made the statement to Dawn that it looked like fun. He didn't join in that fun, however, not because he thought that it was wrong, but because he had made a promise to a lady to protect Dawn, but it was because of his will power and sense of honor, not any feelings of right or wrong that he did that. In the bathroom scene in "Seeing Red," when Buffy finally pushes Spike away, I have always interpreted his look of astonishment as him coming to the realization that he can no longer restrain himself from acting in a normal vampire's fashion. His control is at last slipping, and he is becoming a danger once more to people who he really cares for (I know, I'm probably reading too much into a single facial expression, but that's how I see it) THat in no way excuses what he had just attempted to do. Rather, it simply meant that he actually felt, for the first time, that something that he had done actually WAS wrong, a truly amazing realization for someone who should not have seen any difference whatsoever in right or wrong.

As for Spoke's quest to regain his soul, logic would, I believe, dictate that that wasn't as much a spur of the moment thing as it was depicted to be. Again, this is only my theory, not actual fact, fut he knew where to go, who to see, and pretty much what would be required of him when he got there. Also, he apparently made arrangements about getting to and returning from his destination in advance, even apparently going so far as to assure that there would be someone there who he trusted to get him back after the trials, otherwise he would never have been able to get back to Sunnydale.

As I said from the beginning, this is only my conjecture and theory, with no conformation whatsoever from Joss, James, or anyone else associated in any way with the show, but it seems logical to me, and it's what I'm sticking with until actually proven wrong.

 

[Kana]

I always took it that he almost hurt someone who he loved. As Joss said, Spike's love was at least defined by wanting to see the person happy. He also felt the same about Dru but because she was a masochist and a sadist he was so used to violence, sex and love being mixed together. Being in love with someone who didn't think like that sparked off an identity crisis. He wanted Buffy and it had been so long since he'd been an actual threat. He couldn't be a monster but without a soul he couldn't quite come close to being a person that Buffy would consider as her lover. I don't, however believe that Spike knew it was wrong in itself. If he did, he wouldn't need a soul.

I don't think he felt guilt outside the scope of knowing he caused unhappiness to the woman he loved. I doubt he felt it in the larger sense, otherwise there would be plenty of other things he would have felt guilty for.

 

[Kelsey]

Oooooh, I have so many opinions on Spike and his soul. I don't have time to post them right now, though! I shall be back. =D

 

[ubi4soft]

I don't think he felt guilt outside the scope of knowing he caused unhappiness to the woman he loved. I doubt he felt it in the larger sense, otherwise there would be plenty of other things he would have felt guilty for.

Feeling the guilt because he hurt Buffy was enormous for a soulless being like him. In "The Gift" it was "I know I am a monster, but you treat me like a man..", now after he behaved like a monster, Spike understood that it's not enough, he couldn't go back to be a monster, so he decided to be a man if he wanted to be treated like a man. That's why he went for the soul.

 

[Kana]

Feeling the guilt because he hurt Buffy was enormous for a soulless being like him. In "The Gift" it was "I know I am a monster, but you treat me like a man..", now after he behaved like a monster, Spike understood that it's not enough, he couldn't go back to be a monster, so he decided to be a man if he wanted to be treated like a man. That's why he went for the soul.

But my point is, is that he's done worse over years and never really gave it a moments thought. He was gauging his sense of morality and identity by Buffy's standard. Intellectually, he was deft enough to know that Buffy wouldn't want to be with monster (to have a monster in the man and to be a monster, not the same thing), so his sense of self-worth was defined by that. I think it started out external and worked inwards which was often the case with him. It's not a bad thing, hell we got another soulled vamp out of it.

I'm not in general arguing moral integrity because honestly it's not fair to judge any soulless vampire like that, but the problem becomes determining what's special about our blond haired anti-hero.

Is it sufficient to call him amoral, like Riley? No because he's not a lion killing a gazelle. He understands he's causing suffering even if he doesn't focus on it. He was deft enough to know lonely uncertain it was to be a Slayer but he didn't care.

Also what's left of his humanity after vamping. Talking about him having more residual humanity in him also becomes dangerous because that's makes him more of a bastard to doing the horrible things he did.

Anyway, I'll left dinner on the stove so, more fun in a minute...

 

[Kean]

I'm not in general arguing moral integrity because honestly it's not fair to judge any soulless vampire like that, but the problem becomes determining what's special about our blond haired anti-hero.

Is it sufficient to call him amoral, like Riley? No because he's not a lion killing a gazelle. He understands he's causing suffering even if he doesn't focus on it. He was deft enough to know lonely uncertain it was to be a Slayer but he didn't care.

Also what's left of his humanity after vamping. Talking about him having more residual humanity in him also becomes dangerous because that's makes him more of a bastard to doing the horrible things he did.

What you've outlined here is the core of my problem with Spike and how he is viewed as a character.

I don't feel we can dismiss an absolve him of what he did pre-soul by simply chalking it up to him not having one. Nor was he merely a monster out for the kill, there was the capacity for feeling in him. That was shown countless times.

I think he is a combination of both and I suppose that does make him more of a bastard for the things he did.

I don't even think I'd have a problem with him being that if it was recognised more.

 

[Skytteflickan88]

I don't think there's only one level of evil, so I can get Spike caring for Buffy even tough he had no soul, just more humanity than some vamps.

I think he left to get a soul, because he thought that was the only way he could get Buffy back.

It might have been because he felt sorry, but the line "Why didn't I do it?"(a line Jane Espenson later regrets they had him say) makes me think he just wanted her back. He probably felt sorry it hadn't worked ( if he had managed to rape her and she came back to him, he probably wouldn't have given a damn, even if he might have "broken" her), but I doubt he felt guilty in the true sense of the word.

I've read a few fanfics where it turns out that he did go there to get the chip removed, but his soul got removed instead, or he succeded in losing his chip. I wouldn't be suprised if we one day find out that he was lying to everyone about trying to get a soul (probably lying to himself as well), and it turns out he was after removing the chip(to what end, I have no clue,. Revenge? Freedom?) After all, Marsters didn't know Spike would get a soul until the ensouling scene, so he played it with anger, not guilt or hope, like I think Spike would have if he had gone for the soul.

The anger could be fanwanked and explained(maybe he was determined, not hateful towards Buffy), but I think guilt, sadness or a similar feeling would have made more sense as he went on the soulquest.

 

[ubi4soft]

Oh, yes of course, but in his own evil soulless amoral way, he thought he will never hurt Buffy. Soulless Spike didn't give a damn if it was something not about him or the ones he loved. So because he still hurt her and didn't understand why he hurt her, he felt something was wrong with him (of course Buffy's "you're a monster, you don't have a soul" repeated lines helped) and he went for the soul, "to be a kind of man..".

 

[PrincessBuffy16]

Uf. Well, I don't think so. Spike was evil yeah, without soul, there would always be some big evil part of him, but he was soraunded by humans, good people with best atention. I think you can't just get a soul bit by bit. You have to work for it. In the Buffy world it's through the torture, in real life it's by doing good things. I think he didn't laughed after he tried that because of his humanity, he knew it was wrong. Spike was never so cruel, even like a vampire, he captured his human side.

 

[thevikingsgirl]

I think part of Spike's character too is that he's fairly impressionable. In his "early" years as a vampire (pre-Buffy), his influences were Angelus, Darla, Drusilla. He took his cues from them. They (particularly Angelus and Darla) were extremely evil and sadistic. he was a vampire like them, and they were his "parents" in a way. It would be hard for him not to be influenced by the way they acted. His first exposure to a vampire not doing evil was in School Hard with Angel. I don't think he really started getting back in touch with that little seed of humanity until after he met Buffy. The fact that it was always there maybe does make him more of a bastard for the things he did. I'm not sure it was within his control though, not really.

 

[InsaneMystic]

After all, Marsters didn't know Spike would get a soul until the ensouling scene, so he played it with anger, not guilt or hope, like I think Spike would have if he had gone for the soul.

Do you mean playing the quest with anger or the ensouling scene itself? Because in the latter, I don't see anger in his face, I just see PAIN.

 

[Skytteflickan88]

I mean fromt leaving the crypt ("B***h is gonna see a change") up until the moments when the pain from the trials took over. You can see some hateful feelings then too, but then there's directed towards the demon.

It was a long time since I saw those scenes tough, so I could be wrong.

It just pains me to watch Buffy and Spike hurt each other throughtout the season so I rarely watch any of it, and the last Spuffy/Spike scenes of the season, I might just have watched once or twice several years ago.

 

[Kelsey]

Okay, okay, I'm back! The issue of Spike and his soul is a big one for me, so it's always been something I love to talk about. I've even written a rather lengthy essay on it, but it's not on this computer. Aw, well.

First, I have to say I don't always like the way the show views souls, because it's far too often black and white. Angel is good with a soul and bad without one, and demons are more or less bad because they don't have them. The show doesn't fully take into account the grey area there. It never really addresses the evil humans with souls (Warren), or the good demons without them (Lorne). And what about Anya? And Dawn? And other humans who come from less-than-normal circumstances? There's just too much ambiguiety there to say, "People are good because they have souls. Demons are bad because they don't."

Granted, with a vampire it's different because it's basically possession. The demon is reanimating the living corpse and taking it over. However, I just don't believe Spike needed a soul to be good. I know a lot of people disagree, and I admit you have good reason to. But there's enough evidence there for me to conclude that in different circumstances, Spike could have been redeemed without needing the soul.

Granted, the soul was the easiest route to redemption, and it was also the only way to Buffy's heart. But to me, it never mattered that he had a soul. I loved him without one. It mattered that he fought to get his soul"”that's what makes the difference.

I think the fact that Spike feels guilt for what he does proves he could have found another way to redemption if given the chance. I know it sounds twisted, but I think it's true. Consider the guilt he felt. Consider how much it tortured him"”enough for a soulless creature to not only consciously choose to get his soul, but to fight for it. Imagine what he'd do if the soul wasn't an option; if he didn't have that out. How would he have reacted then? I'll always be dying to know.

Spike always had humanity in him"”that's canon. But if someone had shown him support, if someone had really, truly said, "You can be good. You can change," then I think it could have made a difference. He still would have needed a wake-up call, because he was too bogged down with his wickedness to realize what he could do. But the fact that he felt guilty for hurting Buffy, the fact that he had to talk himself into killing that woman once he thought the chip didn't work, the fact that there are moments in the show where he reaches out to characters because of a real, honest need to give comfort"”I think those mean he could have done it.

 

[Kana]

The problem is defining the soul. If the soul is not important when why would Spike go out and get one? If he was able to feel guilt on a wider scale other than wanting see the person he loves happy (a trait which I've agreed Spike has always had) then why not feel guilty for all the other people he's hurt. I agree with Joss is that Spike capicity for love goes as far as wanting to see the other person happy. Torturing Dru until she likes him again is something that is consistant of his character, because he's doing what he thinks the girls wants. Getting a soul for Buffy was a part of that. It was journey. I agree but it was something that happened from the outside in. What was more unique about Spike was ability to disregard his vampiric nature for love, but I don't think he contemplated strongly about morality outside the realm of one Buffy Summers. Again, I argue, if Spike knows what the right thing is, then why does he need a soul? What significance does it have?

Also the the idea that he lacks enough humanity to feel guilty on a wider scale protects him in a way, (just like it would protect Angel.) because if he could then it makes him worse than Angelus if there is some kind of metaphysical sense still in him.

 

[ubi4soft]

The problem is defining the soul. If the soul is not important when why would Spike go out and get one? If he was able to feel guilt on a wider scale other than wanting see the person he loves happy (a trait which I've agreed Spike has always had) then why not feel guilty for all the other people he's hurt.

Soulless Spike didn't give a damn if it wasn't about himself or somebody he loved or cared and he was fine with it (I'm not good and I'm OK). Feeling guilt after he attacked Buffy, he finally recognized that is something wrong with him, he couldn't understand what, but he admitted the need for a radical change.

I argue, if Spike knows what the right thing is, then why does he need a soul? What significance does it have?

While soulless, he thought it's ok to hide Katrina's body, or demon eggs not enough researched, or to offer [Buffy] financial support while Buffy constantly reacted differently to his sense of right/wrong. If we look back this kinda started "Into the woods": seeing Buffy running from the vampho's house and continued in that candy monologue to the blond mannequin. Soulless Spike thought that vamping his mum will save her, he didn't like the result and dusted her.

He went for the soul to be able to choose between good and evil as defined by Buffy standards (I'm not saying human standards because we saw a lot of humans behaving worst than soulless creatures). Loving her, he also learned how to be a hero from Buffy (I'm thinking in here about his speech in Touched).

 

[Kana]

Soulless Spike didn't give a damn if it wasn't about himself or somebody he loved or cared and he was fine with it (I'm not good and I'm OK). Feeling guilt after he attacked Buffy, he finally recognized that is something wrong with him, he couldn't understand what, but he admitted the need for a radical change.

While I agree that Spike is never one for self reflection, I'd argue that this is taking it a little too far. If he was killing and maiming for 100 years and never gave it thought then suddenly thought, "Hang on this is a bit wrong" that makes him quite the crap moral example. To me he explained why he got a soul, it wasn't because it was wrong for a vampire not to have a soul in general (it's actually the natural state for most vamps and he was comfortable with that lifestyle before he met Buffy), it was because he wanted to be the sort of man Buffy would want. This to me makes more consistent sense than anything else. He even says that Buffy's going to see a change. I'd contend it was all about her.

While soulless, he thought it's ok to hide Katrina's body, or demon eggs not enough researched, or to offer [Buffy] financial support while Buffy constantly reacted differently to his sense of right/wrong. If we look back this kinda started "Into the woods": seeing Buffy running from the vampho's house and continued in that candy monologue to the blond mannequin. Soulless Spike thought that vamping his mum will save her, he didn't like the result and dusted her.

Exactly, agreed. He tended to what he thought the person wanted. Nothing wrong with that in itself.

He went for the soul to be able to choose between good and evil as defined by Buffy standards (I'm not saying human standards because we saw a lot of humans behaving worst than soulless creatures). Loving her, he also learned how to be a hero from Buffy (I'm thinking in here about his speech in Touched).

I think we more or less agree. You don't have part without the other. To compare to soulled Angel( not for the sake of who is better but to illustrate my point), he tried to help people before he met Buffy when really he had no reason to do so. He didn't even have anyone to love or to love him. This suggests an internal change independant of Buffy. Now of course we'd expect this because he has a soul so it makes more consistent sense. The only evidence of Spike identity crisis happened after meeting Buffy and falling in love with her. Again I'm not ragging on him, but trying to reconcile him with the rest of the verse. He's unique, but I'm reluctant to assume there is any metaphysical difference in him. That may also serve to incriminate him.

 

[thevikingsgirl]

It took Angel quite a long time to start helping people. Didn't they show that dude come to find him living on rats and alienated from the world? And it was seeing Buffy that changed him, when that guy took her to Buffy's school in LA? How's that different, except that he didn't know her at all when it happened. With Spike, he got to know her and loved her, and that's what changed him. Soul or not, it seems Buffy has the capacity for bringing out something better in her men. I saw evidence of Spike getting in touch with his moral side well before he got a soul, but it does seem true to me that it was Buffy who brought it out in him, just like she did with Angel.