Spikes Lack Of A Soul

Your view's understandable. I'm just the type of person who, if something good is happening on on-screen (I thought Spike was one of the best characters on BTVS, and the most interesting)then I don't really care about whatever rules he's breaking. Also, I don't think things should be that black and white in the first place. I'm not a fan of that ever. After all, Buffy should never have been able to have friends, go to high school and have a life, because Slayers didn't do those things. If Buffy wasn't a singularly different type of Slayer, we wouldn't even have our show. Similarly, if Spike wasn't a singularly different type of vampire, we never would have gotten the Spike storyline.

As for him doing good things to make her think more of him, you have to stretch that reasoning pretty far to make it encompass nearly dying for her, staying to protect her friends after she's long gone, and truly caring about Dawn and Joyce. There were a lot of things Spike did that he never even told Buffy or the Scoobs about.

Slayers that work alone isn't a rule but a normality to every slayer's life, a soul however, according to the Buffyverse is solid rule that it gives every creature with a soul a conscience & a sense of right & wrong, you can compare it to the rule in our world that a human cannot live without a heart, its the nature of our world that we cannot live without a heart, & its the nature of the Buffyverse that soulless vampires feel no remorse, its not about black & white, each vampire retains his personality but embedded with a demon's instinct of survival, so they lose the sense of morality. Spike is different than every vampire in the world, the same way you are different than any person in the world, Spike loved poetry, he was love's bitch when he was human, that explains his personality to do everything for Buffy, even if its in a twisted way, if he felt she deserved someone with a soul, he'd get his soul back for her.
 
Hm, but surely Spike's existence and his actions pre-soul calls into question the 'solid rule' of what a soul is in the Buffyverse?

Honestly, I don't think the writers and Joss themselves even really knew what the soul was. In the beginning, it was just a way for Angel to be non-evil. How can we explain why this vampire doesn't want to kill the Slayer? Give him a soul. Then as the series and the characters evolved, it became something more - but something unexplainable.

The fact that Spike (and to a lesser extent, Dru and James on AtS) can and does love, has retained humanity and does good things without a soul surely shows that not everything is as black and white as soul=good, no soul=bad?

I've always found the soul issue to be an iffy one in the Buffyverse. There were so many contradictions across the episodes and the shows themselves - if they couldn't keep it straight, I don't think we can be expected to.
 
K
Kelsey
Thank you! Absolutely agree.
D
dan k
[No message]
Slayers that work alone isn't a rule but a normality to every slayer's life, a soul however, according to the Buffyverse is solid rule that it gives every creature with a soul a conscience & a sense of right & wrong, you can compare it to the rule in our world that a human cannot live without a heart, its the nature of our world that we cannot live without a heart, & its the nature of the Buffyverse that soulless vampires feel no remorse, its not about black & white, each vampire retains his personality but embedded with a demon's instinct of survival, so they lose the sense of morality. Spike is different than every vampire in the world, the same way you are different than any person in the world, Spike loved poetry, he was love's bitch when he was human, that explains his personality to do everything for Buffy, even if its in a twisted way, if he felt she deserved someone with a soul, he'd get his soul back for her.


Again, I get it, I just don't agree with it. And I think it we keep going much more, we'll just be talking in circles. 🙂

As for humans having a concience because of the soul, though, I think that's absolutely untrue. Warren had a soul, and his sense of right and wrong was almost worse than a vampire's. And, if you think about it, humans all have a soul according to Buffy, and yet how many evil humans are there? How many just plain bad people are out there, hurting other innocent people? Yes, the writers attempted to make the soul vs. unsoulled issue very clear, with big fat lines that separated them, but I just never bought it. Maybe that's why our views are so different.
 
from what I see, humans are born innocent, with no drop of hatred, their soul gets corrupted by the way they live their life, even Lilah in the end of Ats S4 showed some kind of humanity left in her, her soul was corrupted beyond repair, but she showed remorse, W&H owned her, & she used the money she had for her mother, & since they owned her, the only thing she could do is be as evil as she could.
however, if you have no soul, you can't be cleansed unless you restore it, its true that there are a lot of contradictions about the definition of a "soul" in the Buffyverse, but they kept it to the end, vampires feel no remorse, & they are the opposite of humans, humans are born innocent, vampires are born evil.

soul doesn't mean evil, but it means you don't have your senses of right & wrong, you don't feel remorse, & because you can't possibly know what's right & what's wrong, you'll just give in to the demon inside of you. Spike however was chipped, & he couldn't be the vampire he was, so after falling in love with Buffy, he used her as his template, what she thinks is right, he thinks is right, & vice versa. he never felt remorse for all the evil he did, he still dragged Buffy in the darkness, but he never did hurt intentionally, he did what he did because that's how vampires love, he wanted to torture Dru until she loves him again. in the end, he knew she won't love him until he restores his soul.
 
But there are people just like that! People with souls who cannot tell the difference between right and wrong, who have NO moral values whatsoever, and who do terrible things for no reason at all. There are people who are incabable of feeling remorse. And the whole "humans born innocent, no drop of hatred" theory doesn't ring true to me at all. Yes, people can be corrupted throughout life, but to make a blanket statement that all humans are born good and never instinctively hate is just... wrong, to me.

Yes, she adopted her values, and yes, he parroted her beliefs because he couldn't figure out any on his own, but I don't agree that he's completely, physically incapable of remorse. Through my own perception of the show, I've seen him feel remorse for what he's done. It wasn't just, "Oh, no, Buffy can't love me now. I should go out and get a soul." There was a real, emotional conflict going on with him. In the end, I believe he didn't want to hurt her, and he felt terrible for doing so.
 
D
dan k
totally agree
But there are people just like that! People with souls who cannot tell the difference between right and wrong, who have NO moral values whatsoever, and who do terrible things for no reason at all. There are people who are incabable of feeling remorse. And the whole "humans born innocent, no drop of hatred" theory doesn't ring true to me at all. Yes, people can be corrupted throughout life, but to make a blanket statement that all humans are born good and never instinctively hate is just... wrong, to me.

Yes, she adopted her values, and yes, he parroted her beliefs because he couldn't figure out any on his own, but I don't agree that he's completely, physically incapable of remorse. Through my own perception of the show, I've seen him feel remorse for what he's done. It wasn't just, "Oh, no, Buffy can't love me now. I should go out and get a soul." There was a real, emotional conflict going on with him. In the end, I believe he didn't want to hurt her, and he felt terrible for doing so.

so you're saying some people are born evil? this doesn't make sense, not in our world or in the Buffyverse. everyone is born innocent, they have no memory, & their soul is fresh, their moral values are built by the way they live their life, & the way they see others live it.

& if Spike had any sense of remorse, he wouldn't go looking for someone to eat the MOMENT he finds out that his chip doesn't work anymore, he wouldn't dump a body of a dead woman, or he wouldn't even try to rape Buffy. true some humans do that, but as you said, their souls have been corrupted to the last bit of humanity, they felt no remorse because their moral values since the day they were born were different than Buffy's moral values. if a human showed no remorse, then his soul is beyond repair, if a vampire isn't feeling remorse, then he doesn't have a soul. Lindsay had a bit of humanity in him, even though his soul was corrupted, but in the end he couldn't take it anymore, he still had a drop of conscience left in him, so he stopped the murder of the 3 kids. if Spike could feel any remorse, he would see how a monster he was, & he wouldn't try to kill a girl, & he wouldn't try to rape the woman he love & watch how helpless she was.

if A has a soul, he can feel remorse, but if his soul is corrupted he can live without any feelings of remorse, yet he still has a chance of being cleansed.
if B doesn't have a soul, he cannot feel any remorse, he can love, he can adapt, but he can never be cleansed until he restores his soul.

that's how I see it.
 
Spike's obsession with Buffy over time changed into love which meant he cared about her feelings. The attempted rape scene saw him clearly upset with himself. The way he says "Buffy i didn't mean" shows that he is disgusted with himself and knows that what he did was wrong, he felt remorse.

If like you said he didn't feel remorse then he wouldn't have showed signs that indicated he felt he did something wrong. He may have just stayed quiet and got the soul for selfish means but that didn't happen. His body language and the way he spoke told the audience he'd reached a point where he wanted to change because he felt remorse for what he did to Buffy.

He didn't feel remorse for anyone else other than Buffy and perhaps Joyce. They both treated him differently hence why he respected them. I believe he still had a sense of humanity in him which allowed him to love and feel.
 
K
Kelsey
[No message]
so you're saying some people are born evil? this doesn't make sense, not in our world or in the Buffyverse. everyone is born innocent, they have no memory, & their soul is fresh, their moral values are built by the way they live their life, & the way they see others live it.

Yes, I think some people are born evil. Children are not always innocent; they, too, can commit terrible crimes. There are people who are incapable of feeling remorse--sociopaths and psychopaths--and who are completely unable to feel anything for anyone besides themselves. Sometimes murderers are created throughout life, and sometimes they're just born that way. Sometimes they come from a good family and have no reason at all to do what they do.

In fact, children, if left to their own devices, can develop completely different views of right and wrong, ones that don't at all match up with society's views. Have you read Lord of the Flies? Sometimes it is society's constraints and teachings that create a person's concience, rather than the person him- or herself.

Specific personality traits, genetics, whatever the reason, not all people are good. This is an entirely different topic, but humans as a species can be pretty damn rotten.

& if Spike had any sense of remorse, he wouldn't go looking for someone to eat the MOMENT he finds out that his chip doesn't work anymore, he wouldn't dump a body of a dead woman, or he wouldn't even try to rape Buffy. true some humans do that, but as you said, their souls have been corrupted to the last bit of humanity, they felt no remorse because their moral values since the day they were born were different than Buffy's moral values. if a human showed no remorse, then his soul is beyond repair, if a vampire isn't feeling remorse, then he doesn't have a soul. Lindsay had a bit of humanity in him, even though his soul was corrupted, but in the end he couldn't take it anymore, he still had a drop of conscience left in him, so he stopped the murder of the 3 kids. if Spike could feel any remorse, he would see how a monster he was, & he wouldn't try to kill a girl, & he wouldn't try to rape the woman he love & watch how helpless she was.

if A has a soul, he can feel remorse, but if his soul is corrupted he can live without any feelings of remorse, yet he still has a chance of being cleansed.
if B doesn't have a soul, he cannot feel any remorse, he can love, he can adapt, but he can never be cleansed until he restores his soul.

that's how I see it.

Oh, I'm certainly not saying Spike really feels a ton of remorse. He doesn't. He doesn't care for the people he's killed, and he doesn't care for the people whose deaths he has helped facilitate. He does, however, care for Buffy. His remorse is incredibly limited, which supports your theory of vampires losing it, but it's not completely absent.
 
I believe that Joss saw the character of Spike as the perfect way to show Buffy, the Scoobies, and the audience that there can be evil out there that isn't completely evil, it's all shades of gray. Of course, he also used other characters to show the other side of the spectrum, that even good isn't always completely good (this is apparent in Buffy, Giles, and let's not forget, Faith). Spike's chip was a place-holder, to an extent, for where his soul should be. He was forced to bring no harm to anything "good," which even included Buffy for a while. With that in mind, why is it that chipped-Spike still hung around? Sure, the chip kept him from hurting good things, but it didn't force him to pal around with the good guys, especially after Buffy died. Why would anybody who was generally shunned by a group of people stay around to help them? I think it's quite clear that it was because he cared for Buffy enough that he would continue to help the people that she loved even with her gone and even though they didn't like him overly much. This isn't something one might observe in other "evil" demons. I agree that Spike was very obsessive over Buffy, but if that's all he was, obsessed, then wouldn't he leave the gang after Buffy died? After all, she was gone, dead, he had no idea about Willow's plan to resurrect her, and yet he stayed. This sort of sentiment was also seen when Glory was torturing him for information. As we all know, Spike didn't tell her anything because he knew that if he did, it would bring harm to Buffy and Dawn. If that is just plain obsession, then WOW... I mean, I've had plenty of obsessions in my life, but let me tell you, I'd never die for Harry Potter. The only emotion or feeling that we as human beings understand that could bring out such loyalty is love. It doesn't have to be love love. Giles would have done the same for Buffy, and I think it's safe to say that his love for her was purely platonic. Spike's love, as we know, was not platonic, but a fiery, passionate, romantic one.

The passion in his love, mixed in with the part about him not having a soul (and also able to hurt Buffy at this point) led to the attempted rape. This sort of thing, sadly, happens everyday and from what I've heard, the act of committing it doesn't necessarily mean that the attacker is soulless. If anything, it breaks up one's soul, never to be whole again. However, Spike's lack of a soul at this crucial moment did not separate him from the agony and yes, remorse, that he felt for the pain he caused Buffy. Humans deal with remorse and guilt in different ways, and I suspect that it is quite possible for demons to as well. After all, vampires still retain a little bit of the essence of their human-selves (as seen in vamp-Willow and her tendency towards women). When Spike became a vampire, he became what he always wanted to be... the right amount of fighter and lover. To further the point, when Angel became a vampire, one of the first things he did was kill his father. Afterward, he went on to being the killing-machine that he was until his soul was restored. Spike's first thought after he became a vampire was to, yes, kill his mother, but only to save her from what he thought was worse, death. This, I think, shows a fundamental difference between two inherently evil vampires who both eventually had their souls returned to them. So does that mean that soulless Spike was more capable to love, to feel remorse, do what other vampires couldn't do? My answer? Shades of gray...
 
D
dan k
great post
Spike's obsession with Buffy over time changed into love which meant he cared about her feelings. The attempted rape scene saw him clearly upset with himself. The way he says "Buffy i didn't mean" shows that he is disgusted with himself and knows that what he did was wrong, he felt remorse.

If like you said he didn't feel remorse then he wouldn't have showed signs that indicated he felt he did something wrong. He may have just stayed quiet and got the soul for selfish means but that didn't happen. His body language and the way he spoke told the audience he'd reached a point where he wanted to change because he felt remorse for what he did to Buffy.

He didn't feel remorse for anyone else other than Buffy and perhaps Joyce. They both treated him differently hence why he respected them. I believe he still had a sense of humanity in him which allowed him to love and feel.

yes he knew what he did was wrong, but he didn't feel guilt or remorse, what made him know what he did was wrong was, as I said before, he picked up Buffy's traits & her senses of right & wrong, so after attempting to rape her, she kicked him & he saw the tears in her eyes, then he realized that what he did was something monstrous, he wanted his soul because he loved Buffy, he wanted to know what's right & what's wrong. in S7 you see the guilt he felt for attempting to rape her.

a look in Spike's face that can be interpreted in any way vs a rule set by Joss Whedon...I'd take the latter.

Yes, I think some people are born evil. Children are not always innocent; they, too, can commit terrible crimes. There are people who are incapable of feeling remorse--sociopaths and psychopaths--and who are completely unable to feel anything for anyone besides themselves. Sometimes murderers are created throughout life, and sometimes they're just born that way. Sometimes they come from a good family and have no reason at all to do what they do.

In fact, children, if left to their own devices, can develop completely different views of right and wrong, ones that don't at all match up with society's views. Have you read Lord of the Flies? Sometimes it is society's constraints and teachings that create a person's concience, rather than the person him- or herself.

Specific personality traits, genetics, whatever the reason, not all people are good. This is an entirely different topic, but humans as a species can be pretty damn rotten.

I didn't mean children, I meant new born babies, they can never be evil, nor can they be good, they can't think, & they have no ability to speak or anything for that matter...they're innocent. but you're right lets just not discuss that, its not something we wanna get deep into.


The passion in his love, mixed in with the part about him not having a soul (and also able to hurt Buffy at this point) led to the attempted rape. This sort of thing, sadly, happens everyday and from what I've heard, the act of committing it doesn't necessarily mean that the attacker is soulless. If anything, it breaks up one's soul, never to be whole again. However, Spike's lack of a soul at this crucial moment did not separate him from the agony and yes, remorse, that he felt for the pain he caused Buffy. Humans deal with remorse and guilt in different ways, and I suspect that it is quite possible for demons to as well. After all, vampires still retain a little bit of the essence of their human-selves (as seen in vamp-Willow and her tendency towards women). When Spike became a vampire, he became what he always wanted to be... the right amount of fighter and lover. To further the point, when Angel became a vampire, one of the first things he did was kill his father. Afterward, he went on to being the killing-machine that he was until his soul was restored. Spike's first thought after he became a vampire was to, yes, kill his mother, but only to save her from what he thought was worse, death. This, I think, shows a fundamental difference between two inherently evil vampires who both eventually had their souls returned to them. So does that mean that soulless Spike was more capable to love, to feel remorse, do what other vampires couldn't do? My answer? Shades of gray...

they retain their memories & their personalities, but a demon replaces the soul, the soul gives you morality, the sense of right & wrong, guilt & remorse. the demon gives you power, & demonic instincts, since you have no morality, you just give in to the demon inside you. Spike got a chip, so he slowly began to come closer to his human self, & further from his demon self (he's still soulless, so he can never feel remorse, but you can say he felt remorse if you want to, or if you see it that way), in S4 he was around with the scoobies either for food or business, half of S5 was the same, he also wanted the chip out to kill Buffy, until he fell in love with her, & started to copy her traits & her senses of right & wrong.
 
To be honest, I found the whole rule about souls and lack of souls on the show to be rather infantile. Once Whedon set up that rule, he set out to break it. He and his writers should have recognized in the end that the whole soul/lack of soul business did not really hold up very well.

Spike, Drusilla, Darla and a few other vampires proved they were capable of love and/or at least compassion in their vampiric state; regardless of whether they "had a soul or not". For me, having a soul is not about having moral standards or the ability to love. It's about having a sense of individuality. The only beings that appeared on "BUFFY" and "ANGEL" that struck me as soulless were zombies.

As for Spike's reasonings behind his good deeds . . . who cares? One, I don't believe in the existence of selflessness. I believe that all beings have some kind of selfish reasons for their "good deeds", whether those reasons have the ability to harm others or not. You can cite Mother Teresa and I would respond that a part of her felt a sense of self-satisfaction over her good deeds or attempts to do good.

I still find Buffy's reasons for engaging in her Slayer duties very questionable. The series has made it clear that she dislikes being a Slayer. Yet, she believes that she has no choice but to carry out her duties. I find nothing admirable about that. On the other hand, I would not be surprised if she also felt a sense of moral superiority for taking part in Slayer duties in the first place.

This whole soul=good and lack of soul=evil strikes me as rather silly. Considering what Whedon did with characters like Spike, Buffy, Willow, Drusilla, Lorne, Clem and Warren; I cannot help but feel that Whedon should have acknowledged that his whole rule regarding vampires and soul was meaningless and a good example of a black-and-white morality that he had pretty much dismissed.
 
K
Kelsey
Nice points!
To be honest, I found the whole rule about souls and lack of souls on the show to be rather infantile. Once Whedon set up that rule, he set out to break it. He and his writers should have recognized in the end that the whole soul/lack of soul business did not really hold up very well.

Spike, Drusilla, Darla and a few other vampires proved they were capable of love and/or at least compassion in their vampiric state; regardless of whether they "had a soul or not". For me, having a soul is not about having moral standards or the ability to love. It's about having a sense of individuality. The only beings that appeared on "BUFFY" and "ANGEL" that struck me as soulless were zombies.

As for Spike's reasonings behind his good deeds . . . who cares? One, I don't believe in the existence of selflessness. I believe that all beings have some kind of selfish reasons for their "good deeds", whether those reasons have the ability to harm others or not. You can cite Mother Teresa and I would respond that a part of her felt a sense of self-satisfaction over her good deeds or attempts to do good.

I still find Buffy's reasons for engaging in her Slayer duties very questionable. The series has made it clear that she dislikes being a Slayer. Yet, she believes that she has no choice but to carry out her duties. I find nothing admirable about that. On the other hand, I would not be surprised if she also felt a sense of moral superiority for taking part in Slayer duties in the first place.

This whole soul=good and lack of soul=evil strikes me as rather silly. Considering what Whedon did with characters like Spike, Buffy, Willow, Drusilla, Lorne, Clem and Warren; I cannot help but feel that Whedon should have acknowledged that his whole rule regarding vampires and soul was meaningless and a good example of a black-and-white morality that he had pretty much dismissed.

I agree that the soul issue had the biggest contradictions on the show, they never proved soulless creatures can't love, what they made clear was that soulless vampires have no conscience, Spike said himself that he only felt guilt after he got his soul, its been a while since I've watched Btvs S7, yesterday I watched a few eps, & Spike showed his conscience side, he felt the guilt & remorse for what he did, he never showed that side before S7, he only showed his love for Buffy. though Angel did say he didn't love Darla because he was soulless, he proved otherwise, he just couldn't admit that he did love her. Darla, James, Spike, Harmony, & maybe Dru did show that they could love. I can't say anything about demons because the show never mentioned anything about how they work, whether they were soulless or not, or whether they could love or not. I can say that Lorne was from another dimension & he is an exception, nothing I can say about the rest, though.


I know it's wikipedia, but I found it's page on the soul to be informative. Perhaps it could help this discussion.

Wikipedia's Soul page.

this is exactly what we know as a rule about the soul, love & other emotions were never concrete, moral consciousness was.

yeah wikipedia isn't reliable, but the show was reliable, & it stated more than once that soulless vampires feel no remorse. this is the part about Btvs in wikipedia's soul page:

In the TV series Buffy the Vampire Slayer and Angel, a soul is often defined as the human moral conscience, which is lost when a human is "sired" and becomes a vampire. Souls play a particularly prominent role in the histories of the vampire characters Angel, Spike, and Darla; all three regain their souls at various points in the series, thus allowing them to feel guilt and grief over their past crimes and motivating them on a path to redemption.

& this is the only rule about the human soul we know in Btvs, they never said anything about a demon soul, & they never said anything concrete about the vampires' ability to love.
 
yeah wikipedia isn't reliable, but the show was reliable, & it stated more than once that soulless vampires feel no remorse.

I disagree. I don't think the show was reliable in its attempt to define the soul or what it meant to have one, for reasons I (and other people) have stated. And as for Wikipedia not being reliable, the same goes for its definition of souls on BtVS. Someone added that entry, and it's their opinion. The show never sat down and defined every single rule about the soul. They alluded to it, they made whole episodes about it in relation to Angel, but they never gave enough for me to believe the soul meant as much as they tried to tell me it did.

Just as you claim vampires absolutely, positively cannot feel remorse, other posters on this very forum will claim that vampires absolutely, positively cannot love. And just as many of us will claim that they, or at least Spike, have the capability to feel both. Limited and often twisted because the channels through which the emotions travel are, but love and remorse all the same. It is because there is no concrete definition of the soul that all of these opinions are possible.
 
I think every single character saying that a soul gives you your moral consciousness, including the 2 vampires who actually got their souls, & the gypsies who cursed Angelus just to make him feel the guilt for what he did, is concrete enough.
am not saying its a fact, am saying that in my opinion, what I mentioned above makes it concrete enough from my point of view, if its not concrete enough in your opinion I understand.
 
I think every single character saying that a soul gives you your moral consciousness, including the 2 vampires who actually got their souls, & the gypsies who cursed Angelus just to make him feel the guilt for what he did, is concrete enough.
am not saying its a fact, am saying that in my opinion, what I mentioned above makes it concrete enough from my point of view, if its not concrete enough in your opinion I understand.

Yes, the soul generally makes a huge difference. I'm not disputing that. I'm just saying, in my point of view, there were way, way too many weak spots that the show didn't cover, with Spike and Dawn and Anya and Warren and so on and so forth, for me to believe that this is how it works 100% of the time, every time without fail. I don't believe in concrete, black and white rules, as I've said before. I believe for every one there is, there is one person/being out there that will break it.

Ironically, the only character to ever bring up my dispute about the concept of souls on BtVS was one of the characters I liked least until that point. Dawn said, "But to get a soul? Like that would make him a better man? Xander had a soul when he stood Anya up at the altar." And of course, she's completely written off by Buffy, who calls her Rant-Girl. For ONCE, Dawn actually said something I liked, and everybody ignores it!

I think I might now be Rant Girl.
 
I didn't like when Dawn said that since she used Xander not marrying Anya as her main reason. I agreed with his decision. Dawn could have mentioned all of the rapists, child molesters, cannibals, torturers, serial killers, terrorists, wife beaters, etc, that have souls. And instead she went with Xander not marrying the former demon that felt absolutely no remorse for over 1100 years of killing humans due to the fact that he didn't want to turn into his alcoholic emotionally abusive father "To my lovely wife Jessica. Where would I be without you? Well, for starters, I probably wouldn't drink so much." and ever cause Anya a lifetime of misery "I want my life back. If I hadn't married you I wouldn't have had to hate myself for the last thirty years!".
 
K
Kelsey
Hah, well, true. But I guess at that point I was taking what I could get.
Yes, the soul generally makes a huge difference. I'm not disputing that. I'm just saying, in my point of view, there were way, way too many weak spots that the show didn't cover, with Spike and Dawn and Anya and Warren and so on and so forth, for me to believe that this is how it works 100% of the time, every time without fail. I don't believe in concrete, black and white rules, as I've said before. I believe for every one there is, there is one person/being out there that will break it.

Ironically, the only character to ever bring up my dispute about the concept of souls on BtVS was one of the characters I liked least until that point. Dawn said, "But to get a soul? Like that would make him a better man? Xander had a soul when he stood Anya up at the altar." And of course, she's completely written off by Buffy, who calls her Rant-Girl. For ONCE, Dawn actually said something I liked, and everybody ignores it!

I think I might now be Rant Girl.

those aren't things that fail or succeed, nor black & white.

by failing or succeeding in your concept, it means when a vamp sires someone, the soul extraction fails sometimes, which isn't the case here.

the soul means consciousness, not good & evil, its just that when humans have no morals, they tend to kill, & feed, especially when a demon is inside them.

notice the emphasis on tend, Spike at first was forced to stop the immoral acts, until he fell in love with Buffy, then he wanted to actually stop, when he thought the chip doesn't work anymore, he looks for a happy meal. its not his fault he has no sense of morals, he just does all those things for Buffy. of course he realized that he has no sense of morals very late, after attempting to rape her, so he went for his soul to get his senses of right & wrong. to be the man Buffy deserved.

of course he came back crazy at first, he wanted to rip his soul out because he hated the guilt, he complained about why didn't Angel warn him, he finally felt self-loathing, later Buffy started supporting him, & he became a better man.


there is a lot of difference between S6 Spike & S7 Spike...because he got his consciousness back. he finally feels remorse for everything he did.
 
I always thought he DIDNT want his soul.

The way i've taken his ramblings etc (pre soul) were that he wanted his feelings for buffy gone, and the chip gone so he could go back to being 'the big bad'.

and the demon (whatever it's called that put him through the trials and gave him his soul back) seemed to me to be laughing at him.

like he gave spike 'what he came for/what he wanted' so yea spike got his soul... But it seemed (to me) that spike did'nt KNOW he wanted his soul back as he seemed surprised/angered etc. that he got it.

thats my take on it.
 
at first I thought that demon from the trials double crossed him, but Joss Whedon himself said he just wanted to surprise us, Spike wasn't Angry, he was determined, I guess.
 
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