Spuffy #4 - General Discussion

[Francy79]

I may open this up to the BB, but I wanted to see what other Spuffies thought first 🙂 I've been reading a lot around the BB lately that although Spike loved Buffy, he's better off without her and should find someone else who treats him better.

Now, as a die-hard Spuffie, I completely disagree with that. Regardless of how Buffy treated him in the past, she was still the woman that inspired him to change and fight for the good side. If anything, he deserves her more after getting his soul and saving the world in "Chosen." Yes, Buffy didn't expressly state her feelings for him until the 11th hour, but she didn't dismiss him after he came back in s7. She helped him, made him strong again, and so on. I guess I just don't see anyone else better suited for Spike than Buffy, and anyone else better suited for Buffy than Spike 🙂

So, what do you guys think? Even if you're a Spuffie, do you think Spike is better suited for someone else?

I think that Buffy and Spike would be perfect together. They are each other's shadow figures, they are each other halves, equals and partners in every way, and if it wasn't for the fact that Spike is an eternally non-aging vampire and Buffy is going to grow old, I think they would be happy together. I so wish that would happen.

Problem is, so far Buffy has never shown to think of Spike as "the one". Unless things change in season 9, Angel is still the one Buffy would spend her life with, if she had the chance. Many people, me included, want Spike to be with someone who loves him the way he deserves to be loved, and while I'm sure Buffy loves him, I don't think it's in the all-encompassing, earth-shattering, you're the one way in which Spike loves her.

So yes, unless things change (and I don't see them changing), I want Spike to be happy, even if it means it must be with someone else. Still carrying a big torch for Spuffy, but I have lost hope that we will ever get what we want in canon.

 

[Spikefan31]

I can't imagine Spike with anyone but Buffy and vice versa. They complement each other. Being in a Spuffy sanctuary I can freely say that I really don't think Buffy and Angel suit each other anymore. They've both changed so much as characters over the years apart that I don't think their love-at-first-sight puppylove high school (for Buffy) romance has weight now. I can't see them getting back together and everything being okay (not to mention Angel is way too overprotective). Spike and Buffy, on the other hand, I can. They just have this sort of relationship that doesn't diminish over time. They could meet again after 50 years and sparks would still fly. Hell, if Buffy was physically game, they could still have house-smashing sex. 😀

Even if Bangel eventually wins (I did not just admit that's a possibility), Buffy and Spike will always have feelings for each other.

NOTE: This is all pretty much disregarding the comics and I acknowledge that Buffy and Spuffy probably won't get their happily ever after in canon. Quick, somebody, I need a good fanfic to fulfil my HEA Spuffy fantasies! 😀

But, answering your question, I think Spike is best suited to Buffy, and Buffy is best suited to him (not the least because she knows he's a vamp)

 

[zobothehobo]

I think Buffy is the one for Spike... but I wish she'd treated him better. I understand that without the hurt she caused him, he wouldn't have grown the way he did... I just wish there was a way to do that without Buffy being quite so mean. It breaks my heart when I see her treat him like a piece of trash... When she comes into his crypt to play "kick the Spike." He loved her and she couldn't just accept it. She fought it with everything she had. And she was mean even after he got his soul... less so but still. There's that scene in Selfless where Spike sees, I guess it's The First as Buffy or maybe imaginary Buffy, be really kind and compassionate to him and offer to help him out... and then we see real Buffy come and the first thing out of her mouth is a really harsh almost accusatory tone "You have a soul now? Fine. Show me." It's like "bitch, can you just be kind to him for a minute? He needs your kindness, he needs your compassion. He did this for you." Throughout the rest of season 7 though, I feel Buffy starting to accept Spike's love and even return it.

I'm a Spuffy... I am. Buffy was and will always be Spike's "one." But as much as I love Spuffy, I love Spike more. It breaks my heart when he hurts. He deserves to not hurt. He deserves to be with the woman he loves and be happy. He deserves Buffy... and he deserves her love.

 

[Tranquillity]

Yeah, I can't see anyone else meaning that much to Spike ever. Even if he and Buffy don't 'end up' together (which they most likely will not) I just can't see Spike moving on from Her. I thought Buffy treated him really well in season seven and I think that that little glimpse we got in #37 shows that they are quicly getting back to that status quo. I don't want to be too hard on Buffy because I love her as much as I love Spike and there are reasons why she was not so nice to him in season six - and, well, he wasn't always very nice to her either. The reason i love Spuffy is becuase they overcome all these obsticals and they both become better for the association. I don't think that will be forgotten.

 

[StarSlayer]

The thing for me too is that even if Buffy and Spike move on or don't end up together (because let's face it, when do Joss' characters live happily ever after, lol), Spuffy will always be the couple for me in the Buffyverse. I mean there's so many TV and movie couples that didn't end up together, but you knew there was love between both of them. I think that's why I'll always ship Spuffy, lol 🙂

 

[Miss Kitty]

I understand what you mean zobothehobo, but I disagree with your way of seeing it 🙂

And she was mean even after he got his soul... less so but still. There's that scene in Selfless where Spike sees, I guess it's The First as Buffy or maybe imaginary Buffy, be really kind and compassionate to him and offer to help him out... and then we see real Buffy come and the first thing out of her mouth is a really harsh almost accusatory tone "You have a soul now? Fine. Show me."

You know, personnaly, I think that Buffy's behaviour toward Spike is more a problem of context. This moment in Selfless, yeah, it's sad, but it's only 5 episodes after the beggining of the season. She was angry at him after the bathroom scene, and even if I'm pretty sure that she missed him during his absence (it's emotionaly complex, that's what I love about their relationship ♥ ), she can't go too fast. What I remember about them in this season, it's the moment where she brings him at Xander's home ; the moment she said she will help him ; the moment she said to him that she believes in him ; the moment she saves him from the Turok-han in the 7x11, the moment she asks to him to stay because she's not ready for him to not be here ; the moment she runs for saving him from Wood ; the moment she said to Giles that Spike is the one who looks after her, the one she trusts ; the moment she wants him to hold her ; the moment she choses him as her champion... I mean, yeah, she's not always sweet because she has a lot of emotional barriers and fears, but she shows so much love in her actions. Spike was and is still loving by her. What's really sad, it's the fact that he doesn't think that it's the case. And I really, really don't understand the fans who don't see love there...

Spike deserves this love and he has this love. But yeah, they needed more time for developping their relationship in a sweeter way ♥

But as much as I love Spuffy, I love Spike more.

It's different for me. I love Spike's character, I love Buffy's character ; but I love Spuffy more 🙂

Problem is, so far Buffy has never shown to think of Spike as "the one". Unless things change in season 9, Angel is still the one Buffy would spend her life with, if she had the chance.

It's more a problem of idealization, as always, and in the comics, the way they show it to us, she's affected by the glow. I really don't take it serious... I really can't. In Chosen, Spike was the one she has chosen as her champion. In a way, she made her choice ; a choice between fantasy and reality. I 'm totally convince that her love for Spike was stronger than her love for Angel, not because of a level of intensity, but simply because of a level of reality. She loves Spike, and we know that she loves him for who he is, because she knows him, and because they are themselves around each other. That ? It's real.

On other hand, some people think that she still loves Angel, but she doesn't know him and he doesn't know her, as she said herself. We don't even recognize them when they are together ! What we see in the comics for Bangel is a little OTT, and I think it's not an accident... This kind of love, I definitely don't believe in it and the comics are a confirmation of this.

For me, the answer is pretty clear. Even in the comics.

I can't imagine Spike with anyone but Buffy and vice versa. They complement each other.

It's the same thing for me 😀

This is all pretty much disregarding the comics and I acknowledge that Buffy and Spuffy probably won't get their happily ever after in canon.

Even if he and Buffy don't 'end up' together (which they most likely will not)

Am I really the only one who think that it's possible ?! 😱 I mean, I know how Joss works, and he obviously dislike happy ending, but really, for the Buffy & Spike relationship, I just can't imagine it in another way (okay, I'm a little bit biased 😛 ). And of course, Joss must suspect that no one of us expecting an happy ending from him. Maybe it's the occasion of surprising us ? 😛

 

[Spikefan31]

I mean, yeah, she's not always sweet because she has a lot of emotional barriers and fears, but she shows so much love in her actions.

Yes! This! Actions speak louder than words! She loved him dammit and I will defend that against the Bangels and their cynicism til the day I die! 😀

 

[Miss Kitty]

Cool banner btw. Et vous etes francaise? Awesome! J'apprend le francais au lycee 🙂

Thanks ♥ And aww, yes, I'm French ! You learn our language ? Cool 😀 Ton Français est très bon d'ailleurs !

 

[prophecygrrl]

I think that Buffy and Spike would be perfect together. They are each other's shadow figures, they are each other halves, equals and partners in every way, and if it wasn't for the fact that Spike is an eternally non-aging vampire and Buffy is going to grow old, I think they would be happy together. I so wish that would happen.

Problem is, so far Buffy has never shown to think of Spike as "the one". Unless things change in season 9, Angel is still the one Buffy would spend her life with, if she had the chance. Many people, me included, want Spike to be with someone who loves him the way he deserves to be loved, and while I'm sure Buffy loves him, I don't think it's in the all-encompassing, earth-shattering, you're the one way in which Spike loves her.

So yes, unless things change (and I don't see them changing), I want Spike to be happy, even if it means it must be with someone else. Still carrying a big torch for Spuffy, but I have lost hope that we will ever get what we want in canon.

Yes, yes, yes yes. This is just how I'm feeling, and to be honest, I hate it. Normal people carry a torch for Spuffy- I carry a small FOREST FIRE for them. I hate this ominous feeling SO much. But I am very pessimistic about how their relationship will go in canon, mostly because the Bangel one is emphasized so strongly in order for the S8 story arc to make sense (ARGH at Joss for sacrificing character development for the sake of rewriting some stupid mythology...I have feelings on this!!)

I think that Buffy loves Spike a lot more than she lets on, and a lot of the nuance of their relationship in Season 7 proves (to me) that she can see a future with him too. Like in End of Days, when she and Spike are talking about their night together in Touched, she starts to say "maybe when this is over..." before Spike cuts her off and tells her to leave it, that they need to go be heroes. Their love isn't as plainly reiterated in canon like some of the other ships, but I think there is still tremendous potential left for a true, equal partnership to be formed. Unfortunately, the comics are so focused on Twilight and the mythology that the characters are second to the plot. If they continue like this, I don't think their relationship will be explored the way it should be. Heck, they hardly even explained or tried to justify the Bangel! They just slapped the 'true wuv' label over it and assumed it spoke for itself. Argh.

Rambling post is rambling. Sorry. 😛

At least we have fanfiction. 😉

 

[Spikefan31]

Love this! I found the best fluffy/romantic/beautiful Spuffy fanfiction the other day, btw. I don't know if that's your speed, but have you ever heard of the fanfic author Lirazel? Look her up- she writes some of the BEST Spuffy I've ever read.

Thanks! I've never heard of her, but I'll be sure to look her up! 😀

 

[Francy79]

It's more a problem of idealization, as always, and in the comics, the way they show it to us, she's affected by the glow. I really don't take it serious... I really can't. In Chosen, Spike was the one she has chosen as her champion. In a way, she made her choice ; a choice between fantasy and reality. I 'm totally convince that her love for Spike was stronger than her love for Angel, not because of a level of intensity, but simply because of a level of reality. She loves Spike, and we know that she loves him for who he is, because she knows him, and because they are themselves around each other. That ? It's real.

Of course it's a problem of idealization. The whole Buffy/Angel love has been idealized and put on a pedestal by both of them, because they weren't allowed to live it. So it is forever the impossible dream. They don't know each other, and they don't trust each other... that love is based on the idea they have of one another, not the real thing.

But Buffy doesn't realize this... the writers haven't allowed her to move past this, she's emotionally still stuck there. She still sees Angel as the love of her life. We know Spike is the real thing, but she's not there yet.

In the comics, she was affected by the glow, but the glow didn't create her feelings for Angel, it just freed her from her inhibitions. And she still doesn't look perturbed by the fact that she boinked Twilight. I was hoping that once she was away from Angel it would finally dawn on her what terrible things Angel has done as Twilight, and feel sick that she slept with him, almost causing an apocalypse. But nothing so far! She always forgives Angel for everything, because he's Angel.

One can only hope that season 8 will finally push Buffy to move on from Angel, and if not, at least to remove her blinders about him.

On other hand, some people think that she still loves Angel, but she doesn't know him and he doesn't know her, as she said herself. We don't even recognize them when they are together ! What we see in the comics for Bangel is a little OTT, and I think it's not an accident... This kind of love, I definitely don't believe in it and the comics are a confirmation of this.

I agree, I don't think Joss writes Bangel in that way without reason. We are supposed to see how destructive it is, for both characters. I'm not saying Buffy/Angel will have their happily everafter..they won't. But I don't think Buffy will end up with Spike either. And I don't even want her too, if he's still the second choice.

Am I really the only one who think that it's possible ?! 😱 I mean, I know how Joss works, and he obviously dislike happy ending, but really, for the Buffy & Spike relationship, I just can't imagine it in another way (okay, I'm a little bit biased 😛 ). And of course, Joss must suspect that no one of us expecting an happy ending from him. Maybe it's the occasion of surprising us ? 😛

I seriously doubt that. He will probably sit on the fence until the very end of Buffy, never clearly picking one vamp over the other... and Buffy will probably end up alone, or with Xander.

Me, disillusioned much? 😀

 

[Spikefan31]

Well, I'd rather her end up with Xander than Angel 😀

 

[Francy79]

Well, I'd rather her end up with Xander than Angel 😀

Me too, actually! 😀

 

[Justme]

Hello all,

I am new here and given the amount of discussion on this topic I am sure I have little to add so please forgive me!

I ended up stopping following Buffy after S3 mainly due to other real world things. I did watch sporadically and then followed the last half of S7. Since that I have rewatched it 4/5 times from the start. So ANYWAY there is a point to explaining this.

I hated Buffy at the end of S7 (I still do infact) and so when it came to rewatching it I hated her throughout. Therefore I pretty much ignored all of her "emotional" story lines and just took for granted the things I had (wrongly I know think) assumed in S7 and the few times I watched the interim. These things were that Buffys love for Reilly was the same as Angel and only surpassed by her love for Spike.

Now I think I am wrong, I just rewatched again and this time I loved and sympathised with Buffy throughout until S7 halfway through.

The conclusion I came to is that certainly the writers meant for her relationship with Spike to be far from love.

I actually was extremely confused and maybe something bordering on offended by the way she acted with spike in S7. The guy had tried to rape her, admittedly with no soul but still. Sorry if this is going a little deep but Buffys irrational protection and obsession with Spike seemed a lot like an abusive relationship. "He only hurt me because he had no soul" seeming very similar to "He only hurt me because he was drunk/angry/upset etc etc". This in itself I have no problem with only Buffy never realises it.

Spike is a fairly typical male abuser in my eyes, he wants to possess Buffy, his "love" for her is completely irrational and destructive. I could waffle a lot more about this but I wont.

My thoughts aren't fully fleshed out on this topic but the whole thing leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

Anyway that's my two pence.

 

[Spikefan31]

It's cool. Everyone's entitled to their own opinion. I just really wish they hadn't done the AR scene at all. It's caused a lot of controversy. And if they were always planning on having it happen, they shouldn't have lulled us into believing Spike could possibly be good without a soul. I could go on forever about how I don't like the ambiguity, but I'm tired and should go to bed because I have school tomorrow, so goodnight! 😀

 

[zobothehobo]

Honestly, I don't look at it as an attempted rape. He didn't attempt to rape her. He attempted to have sex with her. I don't think he realized there wasn't a part of her that wanted it until she kicked him across the room... that's why he was so horrified and disgusted with himself. He was confused and frustrated and just trying to make her love him in the only way he knew how. When that didn't work, he went to get a soul so he could know how to love her and be the man she needed. It's an awful scene to watch, but not because he's raping her... but rather because he's so confused. He has no idea what's going on. And it's heartbreaking. He's hurting her, which is the last thing he wants to do and comes to the realization, as he is at that point, he'll never be the man she needs... the man she loves.

 

[Justme]

Honestly, I don't look at it as an attempted rape. He didn't attempt to rape her. He attempted to have sex with her.

Sorry but I really don't see the difference, he attempted to have sex with her against her will, it's rape. It really doesn't matter how sorry, confused or hurt he was. All of these things are again fairly typical in abusers.

Anyway I don't dislike Spike depsite what I am saying. As a character I like the guy, I just think that you can't paint it any other way.

One thing I will say though Spikefan has made me think about this in the context of a writing mistake. Take away this scene and everything is more open to interpretation. I think you have a really good point, they probably should never have done this at all, maybe they just wanted to push another boundary without thinking about the consequences.

---------- Post added at 12:04 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:56 AM ----------

For Spike-Buffy Fans Only

Eeek I just saw this at the top of the thread and now I feel bad.

Sorry.

 

[zobothehobo]

Sorry but I really don't see the difference, he attempted to have sex with her against her will, it's rape. It really doesn't matter how sorry, confused or hurt he was. All of these things are again fairly typical in abusers.

I get that.. but he didn't think she didn't want to have sex with him. I honestly believe he thought it was going to be like every other time they had sex. She starts saying no and resisting and ends up enjoying herself. I don't think he realized that wasn't what was going to happen until she kicked him off of her.

One thing I will say though Spikefan has made me think about this in the context of a writing mistake. Take away this scene and everything is more open to interpretation. I think you have a really good point, they probably should never have done this at all, maybe they just wanted to push another boundary without thinking about the consequences.

I completely disagree. I think this scene was necessary for Spike's journey. Without it, he wouldn't have made the choice to get his soul. It was the realization he had almost raped Buffy that sent him to Africa. Yes, this scene pushed a boundary with audience comfort... but I don't think that was it's soul purpose. I think it's primary purpose was to send Spike to get his soul. Leaving the audience with a feeling of discomfort was a neat side effect.

 

[Tranquillity]

Hello all,

I am new here and given the amount of discussion on this topic I am sure I have little to add so please forgive me!

I ended up stopping following Buffy after S3 mainly due to other real world things. I did watch sporadically and then followed the last half of S7. Since that I have rewatched it 4/5 times from the start. So ANYWAY there is a point to explaining this.

I hated Buffy at the end of S7 (I still do infact) and so when it came to rewatching it I hated her throughout. Therefore I pretty much ignored all of her "emotional" story lines and just took for granted the things I had (wrongly I know think) assumed in S7 and the few times I watched the interim. These things were that Buffys love for Reilly was the same as Angel and only surpassed by her love for Spike.

Now I think I am wrong, I just rewatched again and this time I loved and sympathised with Buffy throughout until S7 halfway through.

The conclusion I came to is that certainly the writers meant for her relationship with Spike to be far from love.

I actually was extremely confused and maybe something bordering on offended by the way she acted with spike in S7. The guy had tried to rape her, admittedly with no soul but still. Sorry if this is going a little deep but Buffys irrational protection and obsession with Spike seemed a lot like an abusive relationship. "He only hurt me because he had no soul" seeming very similar to "He only hurt me because he was drunk/angry/upset etc etc". This in itself I have no problem with only Buffy never realises it.

Spike is a fairly typical male abuser in my eyes, he wants to possess Buffy, his "love" for her is completely irrational and destructive. I could waffle a lot more about this but I wont.

My thoughts aren't fully fleshed out on this topic but the whole thing leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

Anyway that's my two pence.

This section of the board, The Back Steps, is populated by Spuffy shippers. I don't think there is one of us here who is not aware and fully concious of Spike's history and the regrettable circumstance of the AR or the fact that Buffy's love for Spike is highly debatable. These are not new ideas. The AR is a complicated thing - it comes as the culminating event of a destructive relationship but, and this is the important part - it led to better things. Spike went and got a soul, Buffy re-engaged with her life. Both characters had to hit rock bottom in order to move upward, onward and forward.

In season Seven Buffy is very defensive of Spike after she finds out that he has the soul, because, in her world, that is an absolutely HUGE deal. This is a girl who blames herself for causing the man she loved to lose his soul - She sees herself as a destroyer of souls (and it's not just Angel, she also blames herself for what happened to Riley too). And then Spike, goes and challenges that self concept. He goes and seeks out a soul, faces the monster inside and defeats it - for HER, because of HER. That's why she champions Spike in season seven - because she believes he can be a good man, not because she's excusing her abuser. I find Buffy and Spike frank and honest with each-other in season seven, certainly not weak or pathetic or deluded.

 

[Justme]

I get that.. but he didn't think she didn't want to have sex with him. I honestly believe he thought it was going to be like every other time they had sex. She starts saying no and resisting and ends up enjoying herself. I don't think he realized that wasn't what was going to happen until she kicked him off of her.



I completely disagree. I think this scene was necessary for Spike's journey. Without it, he wouldn't have made the choice to get his soul. It was the realization he had almost raped Buffy that sent him to Africa. Yes, this scene pushed a boundary with audience comfort... but I don't think that was it's soul purpose. I think it's primary purpose was to send Spike to get his soul. Leaving the audience with a feeling of discomfort was a neat side effect.

Perhaps it was important in the arc but it could have been done other ways. My feeling of discomfort didn't come from the scene itself though it came from what happened afterwards. Spikes actions throughout are entirely selfish, which is cool he is a vampire after all. The Buffy being completely "in love" with him throughout is what caused the discomfort.

Let me try and summarise the problem I have with it.

Spike tries to rape Buffy. Spike then get's his soul back but every action after is entirely selfish, he just wants Buffy. This relationship is destructive in the extreme. Buffy puts Spike above all others despite the pain he caused her.

To me this relationship is entirely abusive.

All of the above is absolutely fine with me *if* the writers actually addressed this properly, which to me they didn't instead opting for... God knows what.

Like I say my thoughts aren't entirely formed here. I am not hatin' on the Buffy/Spike relationship as much as trying to figure it out. Up until the rape scene I thought it was great. Without the rape scene I would still think it was great. With the rape scene the whole thing is much darker but could have been redeemed if it was addressed and dealt with correctly. Part of the problem is probably the time factor. It was the last series after all.

---------- Post added at 12:16 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:11 PM ----------

This section of the board, The Back Steps, is populated by Spuffy shippers. I don't think there is one of us here who is not aware and fully concious of Spike's history and the regrettable circumstance of the AR or the fact that Buffy's love for Spike is highly debatable. These are not new ideas.

Yes I started by saying I am sure I have nothing new to add, but it's new to me. If anyone is willing to chat about it that's great. Like I say in the post I made while you were making this one I like Spike and I even like his and Buffys relationship in the main. Anyway hint taken! I shall mosey off somewhere else, I am new here so sorry about the posting in the wrong place!

---------- Post added at 12:36 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:16 PM ----------

Tranquility you didn't chase! I thought your response was lovely considering I have basically walked into the Spike room and called the guy a dog!

Anyway I know I said I would stay away but I just realised something.

Spike dies to save the world. I always skim over this in my mind as I know he doesn't *really* die (that actually sort of sucks thinking about it now).

One way of looking at this is it's the ultimate unselfish act, he IS a good man. He gives up a possible life with Buffy to do the right thing.

I am not sure if I totally agree with the above yet but I can't believe how much I dismissed his death. I am such a muppet.

I know take all this too seriously and once again sorry for the previous posts I just thought I would add this as a sort of apology.