Spuffy #4 - General Discussion

[Francy79]

Ugh, that's why I'm not a fan of watching shows through metaphores and real-life glasses. This is a shows
about the difficulty of growing up, but it is set in a fictional universe with demons, witches, Gods.
To reduce everything to a metaphor for real life is over-simplifying things. Seeing Spike=bad boyfriend/abuser and Buffy=victim of abuse who has a co-dependence with abuser takes away most of the beauty and complexity of this story.

If we have to reason about the show removing all the natural elements, well, why are we watching Buffy the Vampire Slayer? I'll go watch Dawson's Creek, instead.

Spike is a vampire in the show. Buffy is the hero that kills vampires. Vampires are evil because they don't have a soul, so their natural state of being is being evil, and doing evil things. They can love, but it's an obsessive kind of love.

In this particular case, thanks to the right circumstances, the monster falls in love with the hero, and the monster's love for the hero pushes him to become a better person, overcoming his nature, and winning the hero's love in the process, in a mutual and difficult journey of growth, forgiveness and growing closeness. I find it absolutely beautiful and uplifting, like the best of the fairytales.

I am frankly quite tired of the AR issue. Even Buffy forgave him. Both Spike and Buffy in season 6 were horrible to each other; she flat out used him, exploiting his love for her that made him more than available to her needs. He took advantage of her depression to get what he wanted (or at least what he could). She shagged him, but at the same time she treated him like shit; she beat the life out of him while lashing out her own issues; he lost control and attacked her, in a mistake almost as tragic for him as it was for her.

As a woman, I don't see the AR as worse than the rest of the stuff they put each other through. In season 6 you had a depressed, suicidal slayer and a soulless vampire getting into a relationship... how could it ever be flowers and roses? It's the recipe for disaster.

These are not a normal woman and a normal man (that would be awful and unacceptable to watch on my screen). These are two supernatural beings, who started out as mortal enemies trying to kill each other multiple times, and ended up being as close as two people can possible be. They put each other through hell, BOTH of them... and they came out of it together, stronger than they were.

If some people can't see the uplifting message, the "genuinely beautiful" relationship (as Joss himself described it) that Buffy and Spike came to have, and only want to focus on the AR (as if it was the only thing that happened in the 6 years the characters interacted), well, that's their prerogative, and their loss! 🙂

JustMe, I'm not attacking you... it's just that I have read this kind of argument hundreds of times, and it gets tiring. To each their own, anyway!

 

[Justme]

That's Ok I don't think you are attacking me.

I don't agree and have some answers but like somebody said earlier this isn't the place!

Anyway I like Buffy and Spike and I wish I could see their relationship as beautiful. I can't though =(

 

[Miss Kitty]

But Buffy doesn't realize this... the writers haven't allowed her to move past this, she's emotionally still stuck there. She still sees Angel as the love of her life. We know Spike is the real thing, but she's not there yet.

In the comics, she was affected by the glow, but the glow didn't create her feelings for Angel, it just freed her from her inhibitions. And she still doesn't look perturbed by the fact that she boinked Twilight. I was hoping that once she was away from Angel it would finally dawn on her what terrible things Angel has done as Twilight, and feel sick that she slept with him, almost causing an apocalypse. But nothing so far! She always forgives Angel for everything, because he's Angel.

One can only hope that season 8 will finally push Buffy to move on from Angel, and if not, at least to remove her blinders about him.

Yes, they amplified the idealized feelings she had for him, and so what ? 😕 It doesn't change the reality. It doesn't change what a lot of fans think about their relationship. They just have make it more OTT than it was since the beggining. But it doesn't change the facts and what we think. We are in the same case than few years ago.

The fact that she doesn't look perturbated is exactly why I think there's something weird/wrong with her... Because this, it's not Buffy and it's not her way of react. That's not the girl who felt guilty when she was thinking that she had killed Katerina.

That's why I think the consequences will come later (she's still a little drugged by the glow). And apparently, it will be huge...

I agree, I don't think Joss writes Bangel in that way without reason. We are supposed to see how destructive it is, for both characters. I'm not saying Buffy/Angel will have their happily everafter..they won't. But I don't think Buffy will end up with Spike either. And I don't even want her too, if he's still the second choice.

The problem is, there, the story still don't show to me that Spike is her second choice. With all the elements we have, I don't see it in this way. And the Universe could say whatever he wants, it doesn't change the facts and the reality to me.

I seriously doubt that. He will probably sit on the fence until the very end of Buffy, never clearly picking one vamp over the other... and Buffy will probably end up alone, or with Xander.

Me, disillusioned much? 😀

I hope it won't be the case. But if she kills her idealization of Angel as I think she will do, it won't be the case. I really hope that they will end this story because they really need it. And WE really need it. I'm an optimistic person, and I won't change that 😛


***

Concerning the attempted rape, I wrote an essay about this few weeks ago, but it's in French. Hmm, I'll try to explain my point of view 😱 , but it's more easier in my maternal language... 😱 I apologize for my bad English. Hum, let's go ! 😱

First of all, I accept this part of their story, as I accept each other part. It makes their story more complex, and I like this.

In my opinion, Spike in seasons 5 and 6 was lost between two worlds, and no one of them accept him : the human world reject him because he's a vampire (thanks to Xander and Giles more specifically) and the the demon world reject him because he kills demons and vampires, and because he's with the Slayer (as we see it in Life Serial for example). Since the beggining of season 6, Spike was presented as a vampire with two parts of him who were in conflict. The human part was in love with Buffy and pushed him to do beautiful things, like looking after Dawn, helping her friends during 5 months, and try to do his better for her. But the demon part is still here, somewhere, and even if his evolution permits to him to be better, trying to fight his nature, he's still a vampire on some aspects. Marti Noxon said it very well :

He sort of represents Buffy's other side. He's her id. He's hang dog because he loves Buffy, and he's not been getting his way. But in some ways I think he's the most powerful. And he's constantly struggling with his nature, which is also a part of Buffy's character arc. So, to me, he is heroic in the Buffy universe, because he's right there representing what the show's about, which is the struggle to be a hero and the other part of you that wants to drag ya on down into the abyss. -- Marti Noxon (Metro, 9-02)​

A part of him tries to be an hero, and the other part of him wants to drag him into the abyss.

And I think it's important to note that he's NOT perfect, but he TRIES to be, he tries to change. And for a vampire, it's an amazing thing. In Smashed, when he discovers that his chip doesn't work on Buffy, he thinks he's free. And he decides to try to kill a girl, but, well... he's not really convinced by his attempt. David Greenwalt said it very well in the commentary of Smashed ; the real question is : does he want to kill the girl, or convince himself that he wants to kill the girl ? The scene speaks itself.

SPIKE to Buffy : A man can change.

And later, Spike to the woman :

SPIKE: She thinks I'm housebroken. She forgot who she's dealing with.
WOMAN: Anything you want, please-
SPIKE: Just 'cause she's confused about where she fits in, I'm supposed to be too? 'Cause I'm not. (pacing back and forth) I know what I am. I'm dangerous. I'm evil.
WOMAN: (scared) I-I'm sure you're not evil.
SPIKE: Yes, I am. I am a killer.

He wants to prove to Buffy that he can be someone and he wants to prove to *himself* that he can be someone. He wasn't a vampire anymore, but he wasn't an human. There, he has an opportunity to be someone, and a chance of proving to Buffy that he's not " a thing" (and when she said that to him, she tries to convince herself that her attraction to him is not a good thing, so she's violent in her words, but I don't think she means it).

In season 6, Buffy was depressed and she was lost. But Spike was a lot like her. But they have more insisted on the case of the Slayer because, well, she's the heroine of the show. But again, in Smashed, they show this very well for Buffy as for Spike :

SPIKE: Oh, poor little lost girl. She doesn't fit in anywhere.
BUFFY: Me? I'm lost? Look at you, you idiot! Poor Spikey. Can't be a human, can't be a vampire. Where the hell do you fit in?


They're both lost. That's one of the reason why they find each other in this season.

So, what I'm saying is, Spike is lost between two parts of himself. A part who tries to be good in despite of his nature (he doesn't try to change who he is, but WHAT he is, only his nature) ; and a part of him who makes him commit mistakes (like eggs demons, and I still find this part of the story ridiculous, but whatever).

Now, we are in Seeing Red. All the season, Spike and Buffy were both lost, they have both done mistakes ("You always hurt the one you love", good line for thought in their case), and even if (and I'm totally convinced of it) feelings were there in Buffy's side as in Spike's side, they weren't in the good emotional context for developping this in a good way. When Spike came in the bathroom in Seeing Red, initially, he came to apologize to her. He talks to her about feelings and love. It's a desperate action. We know that he's sincere.

And there, we have exactly the conflict between his human part and his demon part who appears. The human part talks to her about love, and his demon part crossed the boundary for getting what he wants. On the moment, he doesn't realize how bad his action is (and, as it has been said, because of their relationship in season 6 where "no" means "yes", it wasn't clear to him) and he has done probably the biggest mistake of his life.

It's important to say that I DON'T APOLOGIZE or minimize his act ! I just try to explain it.

But after, Spike realizes what he has done. He's angry at him, he feels culpability and remorses (and it's really not common for a soulless vampire). He doesn't support the idea of what he has done to the woman he loves more than anything. This ? It's the human part of him who blames the demon part of him.

And there, exactly, at this moment, he decides to make a choice. He goes to recover his soul. Recover his humanity. He goes in Africa for destroying the demon part in him ; the demon part who pushes him to cross the boundary and to hurt the woman he loves. No duality anymore. With this soul, he has an indentity. He just... makes a choice. And it's just amazing from a soulless vampire.

That's why I don't understand fans who think that he goes in Africa for remove the chip. It's a nonsense to me. Because the changes are rooted in him. And his action towards Buffy, his culpability and his remorses pushes him to make a choice. The GOOD choice.

Season 7 was the reconstruction on better basis of their relationship. Feelings were still there, but the context was better. They forgive each other and they forgive to themselves they own mistakes. Yes they have done mistakes, but yes, they can move on from this.

Look at Conversation with dead people, 7x07 :

BUFFY
I just—(sighs) if you knew what I've done, what I've let myself become. My best friends don't even—You'd laugh, you heard some of the things I've done to them.

HOLDEN
(sits on nearby headstone) Buffy, I'm here to kill you, not to judge you.

BUFFY
The last guy I was with, it got really— I behaved like a monster, treated him like— But at the same time, I-I let him completely take me over. Do things to me that— (starts to cry, Holden stands) I'm sorry. (wipes eyes) Wow, I didn't mean to get all true-confessions there. I don't know what's wrong with me.



And look at Never leave me, 7x09 :

BUFFY
I don't hate like that. Not you, or myself. Not anymore. You think you have insight now because your soul's drenched in blood? You don't know me. You don't even know you. Was that you who killed those people in the cellar? Was that you who waited for those girls?

SPIKE
There's no one else.

BUFFY
That's not true. Listen to me. You're not alive because of hate or pain. You're alive because I saw you change. Because I saw your penance.

SPIKE
(lunges violently at her, but chains hold him back) Window dressing.

BUFFY
Be easier, wouldn't it, it if were an act, but it's not. (walks toward him) You faced the monster inside of you and you fought back. You risked everything to be a better man.

SPIKE
Buffy...

BUFFY
(in his face) And you can be. You are. You may not see it, but I do. I do. I believe in you, Spike.


They know they have both done mistakes and they regret it. Their relationship in season 7 was a reconstruction, it was all about forgiveness, trust, understanding, and love. If Buffy hadn't push him to forgive to himself his own mistakes in order to move on (Never leave me), and if Spike hadn't be there for her for give her the strenght to fight (Touched), they wouldn't save the world. If they haven't believed in each other, if they haven't push each other to the better, we probably don't get Chosen in the way we know this episode. Spike hadn't save the World alone in Chosen ; they have both saved the World, simply because of their faith in each other during all this time. And Buffy knew that he needed to save the World ; he needed to do this.

So, yeah, the attempted rape is shocking and it's a part of their story. But it's just this : a PART of their story. This part has played her role, period. But it's a nonsense to stay focus on it, because when fans do this, they totally forget the amazing development of their love story in season 7, which is an important part (maybe the MOST important part). They had a beautiful dynamic in this season, which permits to move on from their mistakes. It was all about this.

So it's a nonsense to me when fans stay focus in the attempted rape.

I hope my English is understandable 😱

 

[Francy79]

The problem is, there, the story still don't show to me that Spike is her second choice. With all the elements we have, I don't see it in this way. And the Universe could say whatever he wants, it doesn't change the facts and the reality to me.

Believe me, I wish I could see this the way you do, but I simply don't. I used to, for the longest time, but with time I started seeing it in a more negative way. Maybe my opinion will change again, in the future, but as of now, I have seen nothing that makes me believe that she would choose Spike over Angel. I will be very happy if I'm be proved wrong in my pessimism! 🙂

If she kills her idealization of Angel as I think she will do, it won't be the case.

We all hope so! 😀

I really hope that they will end this story because they really need it. And WE really need it. I'm an optimistic person, and I won't change that 😛

Good for you! 😀 That makes life easier! 😉

That's why I don't understand fans who think that he goes in Africa for remove the chip. It's a nonsense to me. Because the changes are rooted in him. And his action towards Buffy, his culpability and his remorses pushes him to make a choice. The GOOD choice.

Because the writers royally messed up the misleading ("oooh, we will make everyone think Spike wants to get the chip out, only to shock everyone revealing that he was actually after his soul!") by doing it very badly, (and James Marsters' s performance didn't help... poor him, if they had told him what were Spike's real intentions, he would have known how to play it more subtly, for sure!), giving leeway to the people who don't like this plot development to think otherwise. That's something that never fails to annoy me, when I watch the show!

Season 7 was the reconstruction on better basis of their relationship. Feelings were still there, but the context was better. They forgive each other and they forgive to themselves they own mistakes. Yes they have done mistakes, but yes, they can move on from this.

Look at Conversation with dead people, 7x07 :

BUFFY
I just"”(sighs) if you knew what I've done, what I've let myself become. My best friends don't even"”You'd laugh, you heard some of the things I've done to them.

HOLDEN
(sits on nearby headstone) Buffy, I'm here to kill you, not to judge you.

BUFFY
The last guy I was with, it got really"” I behaved like a monster, treated him like"” But at the same time, I-I let him completely take me over. Do things to me that"” (starts to cry, Holden stands) I'm sorry. (wipes eyes) Wow, I didn't mean to get all true-confessions there. I don't know what's wrong with me.



And look at Never leave me, 7x09 :

BUFFY
I don't hate like that. Not you, or myself. Not anymore. You think you have insight now because your soul's drenched in blood? You don't know me. You don't even know you. Was that you who killed those people in the cellar? Was that you who waited for those girls?

SPIKE
There's no one else.

BUFFY
That's not true. Listen to me. You're not alive because of hate or pain. You're alive because I saw you change. Because I saw your penance.

SPIKE
(lunges violently at her, but chains hold him back) Window dressing.

BUFFY
Be easier, wouldn't it, it if were an act, but it's not. (walks toward him) You faced the monster inside of you and you fought back. You risked everything to be a better man.

SPIKE
Buffy...

BUFFY
(in his face) And you can be. You are. You may not see it, but I do. I do. I believe in you, Spike.


They know they have both done mistakes and they regret it. Their relationship in season 7 was a reconstruction, it was all about forgiveness, trust, understanding, and love. If Buffy hadn't push him to forgive to himself his own mistakes in order to move on (Never leave me), and if Spike hadn't be there for her for give her the strenght to fight (Touched), they wouldn't save the world. If they haven't believed in each other, if they haven't push each other to the better, we probably don't get Chosen in the way we know this episode. Spike hadn't save the World alone in Chosen ; they have both saved the World, simply because of their faith in each other during all this time. And Buffy knew that he needed to save the World ; he needed to do this.

So, yeah, the attempted rape is shocking and it's a part of their story. But it's just this : a PART of their story. This part has played her role, period. But it's a nonsense to stay focus on it, because when fans do this, they totally forget the amazing development of their love story in season 7, which is an important part (maybe the MOST important part). They had a beautiful dynamic in this season, which permits to move on from their mistakes. It was all about this.

So it's a nonsense to me when fans stay focus in the attempted rape.

I hope my English is understandable 😱

This, x10000. But some people just can't get over the AR issue, while they can get over murders and other ugly things portrayed in the show. I guess we all respond to things in a different way.
Also, some people tend to compartmentalize things, many consider "Spuffy" just the season 6 relationship, and they fail to understand why people love it.

Spuffy fans, instead, see the Spuffy relationship as the whole journey from School Hard to Chosen, in all its different stages, and we see SR as just one of the many stages of that journey, which is painful and complex, but leads to a beautiful place.

Long live Spuffy! <3

 

[Spikefan31]

I completely disagree. I think this scene was necessary for Spike's journey. Without it, he wouldn't have made the choice to get his soul. It was the realization he had almost raped Buffy that sent him to Africa. Yes, this scene pushed a boundary with audience comfort... but I don't think that was it's soul purpose. I think it's primary purpose was to send Spike to get his soul. Leaving the audience with a feeling of discomfort was a neat side effect.

I agree it was necessary for his journey, but I just think that if they were planning on having it happen all along that they shouldn't have made him do so many 'good' things beforehand. They get your hopes up that he's different from other vamps, that he isn't pure evil, then bam!, they throw out the AR scene. 🙁 They could have had him do something else that would propel him to get a soul...Anyway, this is a Spuffy thread and I like to stay focused on the happy stuff, so...

And no offense to ppl who really hate the AR scene, but when I watched it I was ilke "oh. that wasn't so bad". Like, I'd read so much about how horrible it was that I expected more horribleness, I guess. Excuse my horrible use of the English language in those last sentences. It's 6am. Same goes with the Spuffy sex in S6. From what I'd read I expected much more of it and for it to be really graphic, but it wasn't that graphic at all and there wasn't much of it anyway.

 

[Francy79]

I was glad that they made it clear that Spike was still evil in season 6, and not some kind of puppy with fangs. I have never liked the idea of Spike being different from the other vampires (or the stupidity of the "partial soul" that David Fury talked about... that's nonsense), it would have taken away from the magnitude of his journey from villain to hero (also, if soulless Spike was less evil than other demons, it would make his serial killings even worse). The fact that he was as evil as any other vampire and yet he managed to overcome that thanks to his love for Buffy made what he accomplished more meaningful and poignant.

His initial evilness just adds to his story, it doesn't detract from it! 🙂

To change the topic.. I was thinking about Crush earlier. I always wondered... what do you think would have happened if Dru hadn't shown up, and Buffy had found Spike alone when she went back to his crypt to talk things out with him, and make sure he understood there was no chance with her? Do you think they would have talked in a civil way? Or what?

 

[Tranquillity]

what do you think would have happened if Dru hadn't shown up, and Buffy had found Spike alone when she went back to his crypt to talk things out with him, and make sure he understood there was no chance with her? Do you think they would have talked in a civil way? Or what?

Good question! I'm not really sure what I think - Buffy went there with a conciliatory attitude - she was going to fight with him but let him down gently. So yeah, I think there is a high chance that they would have talked civilly. I'm gonna think on this some more...

 

[StarSlayer]

The conclusion I came to is that certainly the writers meant for her relationship with Spike to be far from love.

First, welcome to the BB 😀 But, yeah. Since this was said in a Spuffy thread, I completely disagree. I think the writers certainly wanted to show that Buffy and Spike's relationship, especially in s7, was real love. I think Jane Espenson (one of the writers) said it best: 🙂

If someone is there for you, is asking nothing of you and has loved you faithfully and unconditionally for all those years, and if that person is the one that you turn to for comfort and support when you are at your most vulnerable, and if they give you that comfort and support unconditionally asking nothing in return, then whether you acknowledge it or not, that is love, so yes, Buffy loved Spike. -- Jane Espenson

I actually was extremely confused and maybe something bordering on offended by the way she acted with spike in S7. The guy had tried to rape her, admittedly with no soul but still. Sorry if this is going a little deep but Buffys irrational protection and obsession with Spike seemed a lot like an abusive relationship. "He only hurt me because he had no soul" seeming very similar to "He only hurt me because he was drunk/angry/upset etc etc". This in itself I have no problem with only Buffy never realises it.

You're forgetting that Buffy is full of love. If she was able to forgive Angel for killing Jenny, torturing Giles, and nearly killing her and her friends as Angelus, why can't she forgive Spike for his evil acts, including the AR scene? As Buffy says in "Him," she knows that Spike now knows what he did was wrong, which is why he went away. Despite what he did, she said she felt for him. She was willing to understand the pain and guilt he was going through since getting his soul 🙂

Spike is a fairly typical male abuser in my eyes, he wants to possess Buffy, his "love" for her is completely irrational and destructive. I could waffle a lot more about this but I wont.

In the beginning, yes. He was obsessed with her. However, "Intervention" was a turning point for him. He almost died in order to protect Buffy and Dawn from Glory, not asking anything in return. That was a pretty selfless act for a soulless vampire, and Buffy recognized it.

---------- Post added at 10:34 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:08 PM ----------

Spike tries to rape Buffy. Spike then get's his soul back but every action after is entirely selfish, he just wants Buffy. This relationship is destructive in the extreme. Buffy puts Spike above all others despite the pain he caused her.

To me this relationship is entirely abusive.

In s7, if anything, Spike tries to stay away from Buffy. He hides in the school basement when he gets back. When he tries to help her in Beneath You, it leads to him hurting Ronnie, forcing him to retreat back to being alone. As he says in the church, "It didn't Work. Costume. Didn't help. Couldn't hide." He felt like even with his soul, he couldn't become a good person. He then stays in the school basement until Buffy tells him to get out, but he goes to stay with Xander. Even when he stays at Buffy's house, he wants to stay away from her and everyone else, mainly because of the First and how he is being controlled.

It really isn't until "Touched," that Spike feels like Buffy accepts and wants him. He was going to leave, but she asked him to stay. He was then going to sleep on the chair, until she told him to lay next to her and hold her. The fact that Buffy and Spike can regain that trust and comfort after everything they've been through, including the AR scene, just fascinates me and is one of the reasons why I love them so much 🙂

Like I say my thoughts aren't entirely formed here. I am not hatin' on the Buffy/Spike relationship as much as trying to figure it out. Up until the rape scene I thought it was great. Without the rape scene I would still think it was great. With the rape scene the whole thing is much darker but could have been redeemed if it was addressed and dealt with correctly. Part of the problem is probably the time factor. It was the last series after all.

Do you mind me asking what you hoped would have been addressed? 🙂 Cause, with the AR scene, I think that no matter what Spike said, it wouldn't have changed what happened. In the past, he tried to say he was sorry to Buffy, like how he slept with Anya. Yet, that still didn't seem to be enough for Buffy. She still said she didn't love him and couldn't trust him. Now, he goes and gets a soul, and has actually changed for her. As he says in "Beneath You," "I can't say I'm sorry. I can't say forgive me. All I can say is Buffy, I've changed." And that was the thing that always seemed to hold Buffy back from really committing to him...the fact that he didn't have a soul. Now that he does, it completely changes the game 🙂

Yikes. I apologize for the long post, but I seriously could write a book about Spuffy 😀 Hope I'm making sense 🙂

Yes I started by saying I am sure I have nothing new to add, but it's new to me. If anyone is willing to chat about it that's great. Like I say in the post I made while you were making this one I like Spike and I even like his and Buffys relationship in the main. Anyway hint taken! I shall mosey off somewhere else, I am new here so sorry about the posting in the wrong place!

No need to apologize, especially since you're new 🙂 I always like chatting about Spuffy and helping others find the beauty of Spuffy that many of us see 😀

 

[prophecygrrl]

Sorry to bring you all back to the AR discussion, which I know isn't very fun 🙁, but I had to weigh in.

The attempted rape scene was absolutely horrible for me. Buffy is one of my heroes (I know she's fictional, but still! That woman is incredible.) and to see her like that...my heart broke.

And here's the thing: I don't think the attempted rape was necessary at all. There could have been a thousand ways for Spike to realize that he's still a monster, and a writing team that's proved to be incredibly talented over the years should have been able explore that. Instead, they used rape as a plot device, and that bothers me to no end. The reason I can forgive Spike for the attempted rape (though I could NEVER do it in the context of real life, of course) is that in-story, it makes sense that that would happen.
The concept of a soul, of monsters and demons, and of what it means to even have a soul in the Buffyverse is ENTIRELY different from our world. (Our monsters still have "souls"- BTVS's don't, not always.) As a vampire, Spike is a soulless monster. End of story, except that he has some semblance of humanity left in his devotion to Buffy. They are in a relationship based on dubious consent, and him forcing himself on her to get her to love him in the only way he knows how- it makes SENSE. I'm not saying it's understandable or "okay", but BTVS makes it clear that having a soul is worth a LOT. It stands to reason that not having a soul is just as important to how the character changes or acts. His quest for a soul, penance, and self-flagellation after the fact also make sense in the context of the story. This is what I know to be true, and that's why I think their relationship IS beautiful, for everything they've been through.

Look, I know what BTVS tries to do with metaphors, but in this case, with a scene so graphic and portrayed so realistically, it failed horribly. With the events of Seeing Red and everything that happened after it (Spike getting his soul, rebuilding their relationship in Season Seven, etc.), there's simply no reasonable real-life equivalent. I can't see it simply as an abuser-apologist relationship because, well, it's not.

ETA: Sorry, I hadn't read the fourth page of this yet! Again, really sorry to go off topic and bring the discussion back to the AR.

 

[StarSlayer]

The attempted rape scene was absolutely horrible for me. Buffy is one of my heroes (I know she's fictional, but still! That woman is incredible.) and to see her like that...my heart broke.

My heart broke for both of them 🙁 Spike had come so far and even said that although he may lie, cheat, manipulate, and kill, he didn't hurt Buffy. And Buffy knew that too (somewhat). It like threw everything he ever did to try and be better for her out the window because it was a harsh reminder that he was still a soulless vampire. He couldn't really control that inner demon inside him.

And here's the thing: I don't think the attempted rape was necessary at all. There could have been a thousand ways for Spike to realize that he's still a monster, and a writing team that's proved to be incredibly talented over the years should have been able explore that. Instead, they used rape as a plot device, and that bothers me to no end. The reason I can forgive Spike for the attempted rape (though I could NEVER do it in the context of real life, of course) is that in-story, it makes sense that that would happen.

I agree. Although it was used as a plot device and made sense with the story, I sometimes wish they chose some other way for Spike to get his soul. Like, what if he bit Buffy and almost killed her because he drank her blood? Maybe that wouldn't have been as dramatic or pushed the envelope, but it could have avoided a lot of controversy. Nonetheless, I accept that it was part of Spuffy's journey.

---------- Post added at 01:06 AM ---------- Previous post was at 01:01 AM ----------

To change the topic.. I was thinking about Crush earlier. I always wondered... what do you think would have happened if Dru hadn't shown up, and Buffy had found Spike alone when she went back to his crypt to talk things out with him, and make sure he understood there was no chance with her? Do you think they would have talked in a civil way? Or what?

Oooo, interesting topic 🙂 I somehow doubt they would have talked in a civilized way. I think it would have started out that way, mainly on Buffy's end, but Spike wouldn't accept that. This would lead to the conversation escalating, and Buffy still punching Spike into his shrine of Buffy. But, I'm really glad Dru shows up in the episode. It gives it so much more meaning.

 

[Spikefan31]

I agree about the Spuffy sex in s6 (maybe b/c I watch True Blood and that is a hell of a lot more graphic)

Yeah, I heard that True Blood, or maybe it was Vampire Diaries, was just Twilight with a lot more sex and nudity. lol 😀

---------- Post added at 05:20 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:18 PM ----------

And here's the thing: I don't think the attempted rape was necessary at all. There could have been a thousand ways for Spike to realize that he's still a monster, and a writing team that's proved to be incredibly talented over the years should have been able explore that.

Those are my thoughts exactly! 😀

 

[StarSlayer]

zobothehobo agrees: I tried to watch True Blood... but here's the thing... It's like vampire softcore porn... which is not my thing.

It's definitely not for everyone. But, I do really like the story and the underlying themes.

Okay, kind of got off topic there, lol! Back to Spuffy...although Eric and Sookie do remind me of Spuffy at times 😉

 

[Spikefan31]

I'm sorry to True Blood fans, but I hate the name Sookie.

 

[StarSlayer]

Kind of off-topic with where the Spuffy discussion has been lately, but I need to say it. At work today, I found out that one of my co-workers is a Buffy fan, but even better...a Spuffy fan!!! 😀 You have no idea how excited I was because I've never found a fellow Spuffie outside the BB!!! It was awesome 😀

 

[zobothehobo]

Kind of off-topic with where the Spuffy discussion has been lately, but I need to say it. At work today, I found out that one of my co-workers is a Buffy fan, but even better...a Spuffy fan!!! 😀 You have no idea how excited I was because I've never found a fellow Spuffie outside the BB!!! It was awesome 😀

EXCITEMENT!
*makemypostlonger*

 

[prophecygrrl]

Kind of off-topic with where the Spuffy discussion has been lately, but I need to say it. At work today, I found out that one of my co-workers is a Buffy fan, but even better...a Spuffy fan!!! 😀 You have no idea how excited I was because I've never found a fellow Spuffie outside the BB!!! It was awesome 😀

OH MY GOD I AM SO JEALOUS!!!!

Finding new Spuffies is SO awesome. 😀

 

[Manderz]

ok so help! I am makin a spuffy banner and i need reasons why the ship is so amazing and touching. I will use the top three and credit those whom i take them from. I wanna make a banner from yalls prospective of spuffy in a way, so plz help and thanx 🙂
Posted via Mobile Device

 

[zobothehobo]

ok so help! I am makin a spuffy banner and i need reasons why the ship is so amazing and touching. I will use the top three and credit those whom i take them from. I wanna make a banner from yalls prospective of spuffy in a way, so plz help and thanx 🙂
Posted via Mobile Device

Spuffy is about the journey. It's not about the "in the now," it's about the "how far we've come." It's about the journey.

 

[prophecygrrl]

Spuffy is about the journey. It's not about the "in the now," it's about the "how far we've come." It's about the journey.

*nods* Exactly.

For me, it's also about who they become with each other. It's not always about who they are, but who they inspire each other to be. At the same time, they have no illusions about each other- their time together in season six proved that. It isn't a fairytale, and it's not always pretty. But it's real.

 

[zobothehobo]

*nods* Exactly.

For me, it's also about who they become with each other. It's not always about who they are, but who they inspire each other to be. At the same time, they have no illusions about each other- their time together in season six proved that. It isn't a fairytale, and it's not always pretty. But it's real.

Yes! Exactly! It's not always pretty, but it's real. It's the realest ship