Spuffy #4 - General Discussion

[zobothehobo]

She's a slayer. It make sense to me a slayer is most comfortable in the dark. I think she meant she's comfortable with him. There's something comforting about the dark... but there's also something scary... the uncertainty. You don't see as well in the dark. I think she meant that too.

 

[Spikefan31]

Just wanted to say I love how the Spuffy forum seems so much more active than the Bangel one. I mean, I rarely see Bangel threads when I click 'New Posts'. We rule! 😀

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StarSlayer agrees: SPUFFIES FTW!!!!
zobothehobo agrees: I was LEGIT just thinking about this! haha It's so true. We are so much more active than them. I think it's because we have more to talk about. Spuffy's more interesting than Bangel.

T to the O to the T to the A to the L to another L to the Y!!! 😀

 

[Tranquillity]

Joan the Vampire Slayer said:

Thirdly, I got chills when I read this line;

You're my dark place, Spike.

This line is interesting on so, so many levels....what do all of you think she meant?

This line caused quite a bit of discussion when it first appeared in the comic. I don't think people will mind if we give a little re-cap:

Miss Kitty bought some great insight into it from Mr. Whedon:
https://www.buffy-boards.com/showpost.php?p=875515&postcount=119

My thoughts:

As for Buffy calling Spike her Dark Place - well I really like the endearment. ‘Dark Place’ is Awesome!! Dark Place is special. Dark Place is the one person in the entire universe who she can tell her deepest, darkest, secret thoughts to without the fear of being judged or rejected or hated. He’s seen the best and worst of her and doesn’t turn away – not even momentarily. Buffy is a girl who lives with secrets and keeps things bottled up so she doesn’t hurt the people around her. She needs a Dark Place; she has things that she can’t tell Xander and Willow or anyone else. She has a need for (and a right to) a relationship that exists completely outside her Scoobies and Spike fulfils that, he always has. The fantasy makes it patently clear that Buffy has missed the Dark Place and she wants it back. And she wants to kiss it too *g*

StarSlayer said:

I saw Buffy describing Spike as her "dark place" as a good thing. Although it was only a daydream, Buffy is still remembering how comfortable she feels around him, and that she can talk to him about anything, even the things she wasn't really suppose to tell (like her feelings about being a slayer in s7, etc).

White Avenger:

Buffy referring to Spike as her "dark place" puts me in mind of the balcony scene when Spike tells her that she "belongs here in the dark" with him. Not necessarily the most romantic moment in the Spuffy relationship, but certainly one of the most sensual and least destructive. I find it encouraging that she would still fantasize about that

Prophecygrrl:

I think you guys are turning me around! I mean, I love that she recognizes the understanding between them and embraces it. I so get that, and it warms my shipper heart. But at the same time, I also want her to acknowledge that he's more than just a dark place. I'll take all the Spuffy I can get from Joss & Co (the so very little they give, anyway!) but somehow I don't see the whole 'Dark Place' sentiment translating well into a happy Spuffy endgame. Then again, maybe I'm just way too cynical about all of this...I'm definitely super suspicious of Joss right now too!

That being said, I did see negative reactions from Spuffy people and well as some... ahhh ...rather barbed comments from 'non-spuffy' folk.

 

[xaphania]

Sorry to change the topic here but today is my posting day at seasonal_spuffy and I left everything until the last minute. I have a fic completed but it needs to be beta read... is there anyone who can quickly look over it (it's short, 1600 words or so) for grammar, spelling, continuity and general improvements?

I would be forever grateful and I can bribe with artwork! 😀

The only thing is it would need to be back to me by the end of my timezone today (Sunday 7th Nov, GMT).

Thank you to anyone who replies. 😀

 

[StarSlayer]

FINALLY got my copy in the mail today 😀

Thoughts On Buffy and Spike in the latest comic (#38) anyone.

Spike sure does get beat down alot in this issue (not just physically either) and Buffy. . . Buffy Buffy Buffy - love her to bits but man, even after seeing the destruction that she and Angel have unleashed she still looks at him with doe-eyed infatuation the minute he walks into the hellmouth!

No kidding, lol! Oh, Buffy. Hopefully, when Angel (as Twilight) punched Buffy, it seriously woke her up and made her realize the damage she and Angel caused. And I loved how Spike got angry everytime Buffy got beat down by either the Master or Angel. Reminds me of s7 when that happened too 🙂

 

[xaphania]

Coalitiongirl's post for seasonal_spuffy is just wonderful. ♥

A Celebration of Spuffy!

 

[Tranquillity]

This place has gone a bit quiet so I think it's time for some New Questions - answer any or all.

1.Would you keep shipping Spike/Buffy if it turned out that Buffy didn't mean that "I love you" in "Chosen" or if the comics 'sink' the ship?

2. What arguments have you seen about Buffy not meaning the "I love you" in "Chosen", and how would you counter them?

3. Which Spike/Buffy scenes in the show do you consider the most iconic (regardless of whether you like them or not)?

4. I've read a few people criticise Spike's Chip recently (because of the convienience of it mostly) - How else do you think Spike might have been integrated into the series as a regular if the writers didn't employ the chip? Where would the story have gone with no chip - would it have ended in the same place or some place completely different? Give an overview of your ideas.

5. Do you think Spike's feelings for Buffy initially developed because of his thing for Slayers? Would the same have happened with Faith or Kendra?

 

[Spikefan31]

1.Would you keep shipping Spike/Buffy if it turned out that Buffy didn't mean that "I love you" in "Chosen" or if the comics 'sink' the ship?

No. I don't care at all about the comics. And as for the 'I love you', even if it turns out she didn't love him, she definitely had strong feelings for him, and that's enough for me.

---------- Post added at 12:24 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:22 PM ----------

5. Do you think Spike's feelings for Buffy initially developed because of his thing for Slayers? Would the same have happened with Faith or Kendra?

Definitely not with Kendra. And I think Faith is a little too...well, Faith-like, for his inner romantic poet. 😀

---------- Post added at 12:25 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:24 PM ----------

3. Which Spike/Buffy scenes in the show do you consider the most iconic (regardless of whether you like them or not)?

The Chosen scene, certainly. And Smashed. And I can't think of any else right now. 😀

 

[prophecygrrl]

1.Would you keep shipping Spike/Buffy if it turned out that Buffy didn't mean that "I love you" in "Chosen" or if the comics 'sink' the ship?


If Buffy didn't mean the 'I love you' in "Chosen", I think I'd probably sit myself down first and have a good cry. With ice cream. And plenty of Spuffy fan videos.

And though I firmly believe that she DID (as I imagine all of us do), it breaks my heart to say that I might not ship them in canon anymore if she didn't actually love him. Spike shouldn't be tied to someone who doesn't love him back, and if Buffy truly doesn't love him, I'd feel wrong trying to force that. I think I might ship Faith and Spike in canon. I'm a diehard Spuffy, but not gonna lie...the parallels and chemistry they had in Season 7 were very interesting. Plus they'd be hot together. 😛

In my happy/perfect/flawless Spuffy fanon, however, I'd still ship them. completely and forever. 🙂

2. What arguments have you seen about Buffy not meaning the "I love you" in "Chosen", and how would you counter them?

The most common one I hear is that she only loved him as a friend. To which I kindly point in the general direction of Season 7. Because just about everything she did for him was proof that she loved him. I honestly don't know how people can think that she only thought of him as a good friend. Just. What? 😕

And I usually don't take creator input *too* seriously because I do care more about how it reads that what they intended, but a lot of the anti-Spuffies (let's face it, most are Bangels) always pull Joss quotes into the mix. Lotta variations on Joss's "Buffy and Angel's love transcends everything", etc. etc. when we debate. To which I am so glad to be able to pull out a few Joss quotes of our own:

Buffy was in love with Spike the moment their hands clasped.

Spike is the person in her life right now..... What I basically told [James and Sarah] was, 'Play the romance, be proud of him, love him when you say you love him, love her when you say she doesn't love you. Forget about the crumbling world, for that period of time it doesn't exist.'

3. Which Spike/Buffy scenes in the show do you consider the most iconic (regardless of whether you like them or not)?

Chosen, clasped flaming hands. It's painful, passionate, mysterious, and beautiful. Just about everything Spuffy is to me.

4. I've read a few people criticise Spike's Chip recently (because of the convienience of it mostly) - How else do you think Spike might have been integrated into the series as a regular if the writers didn't employ the chip? Where would the story have gone with no chip - would it have ended in the same place or some place completely different? Give an overview of your ideas.

Perhaps the chip wasn't the greatest piece of writing, but I thought it did fit well in the end. In fact, I'm a little bit confused when people say it was a convenience thing. Like, I see where they're coming from, but I don't see anything convenient about taking a character in an entirely new direction. It's not like it was an episodic thing. It stayed in the story for three and a half seasons. It seems to me that writing for a character that has such severe restrictions would be difficult.

And sure, it's not the most organic way to introduce a character change. But that's just how things go sometimes, right? And let's not forget that Spike was pretty much still evil for a while after the chip was introduced. He may not have been able to physically hurt people, but he tried to wreak havoc in his own way.

5. Do you think Spike's feelings for Buffy initially developed because of his thing for Slayers? Would the same have happened with Faith or Kendra?

I don't think so. His fascination with her may have been started by the Slayer thing, sure, but love? Love is a Spike thing, through and through. 😀

But I still think that Spike/Faith could work if Spike/Buffy doesn't. Not because she's a Slayer, though. It's really more because I can see the parallels in their redemption arcs, former villains and all that, and their personalities can at times be pretty similar.

Great questions! 😀

ETA: forgot to answer the second half of the first question lol. If Season 8/9 sink the ship, to hell with the comics! I'm not a huge fan of them and hardly consider them canon as it is. You just can't change mediums like that! I think the actors were as much a part of the artistry involved in creating BTVS/AtS as the writers and producers were...you take that away, and you get a different product. TV series just doesn't translate well into comic books.

 

[zobothehobo]

1.Would you keep shipping Spike/Buffy if it turned out that Buffy didn't mean that "I love you" in "Chosen" or if the comics 'sink' the ship?
Yes. 1. Even if I found out Buffy didn't mean it, I'd still say she did. It's not denial... It's just... well pretend. haha And she did mean it so I don't think that would be said. 2. If the comics "sink" the ship, I'll just take them out of my canon and stick to calling season 1-7 canon.

2. What arguments have you seen about Buffy not meaning the "I love you" in "Chosen", and how would you counter them?
The biggest one was people just can't get over the bathroom scene and say she didn't love him because what kind of woman could love her rapist. I think that's a stupid and really weak argument from people stretching to find something to prove she didn't... but they can't find real proof because it doesn't exist.

3. Which Spike/Buffy scenes in the show do you consider the most iconic (regardless of whether you like them or not)?
The scene on the stairs in The Gift, the Touched speech, Chosen, the Beneath You church scene, the "you risked everything.. I believe in you" scene in Never Leave Me, and the Intervention kiss.

5. Do you think Spike's feelings for Buffy initially developed because of his thing for Slayers? Would the same have happened with Faith or Kendra?
I think Spike's thing for slayers helped... but I don't think it was just that. Buffy's personality had a lot to do with it too. I don't think anything would have happened wih Kendra... she'd have killed him even with the chip. I don't think he would have fallen in love with Faith. Had sex with her and enjoyed himself, sure... fallen in love? hell no. She has kind of the opposite temperament of Buffy and is a lot like Spike. Too much for them to be together ever. Plus, the walls she put up had no chance of coming down. It was like if Spike season 2 was to have a relationship with a human. The cold hard walls he put up to hide the soft warm William wouldn't have come down at all. The chip allowed those walls to crack and tumble. Faith didn't have a catalyst like that...

 

[Spikefan31]

Btw, when I said 'no' before, I meant no I won't stop shipping them.

 

[StarSlayer]

1.Would you keep shipping Spike/Buffy if it turned out that Buffy didn't mean that "I love you" in "Chosen" or if the comics 'sink' the ship?
Oh, geez. That's a real tough question for me because one of reasons I ship Spuffy is because I strongly believe Buffy did mean it. If she ever says she didn't mean what she said, a part of me would die inside. To have one of my favorite scenes be turned into something meaningless would be devastating beyond comprehension. Joss wouldn't do that to that brilliant scene!!! Would he?? He just can't!!! Damn it, he CAN'T!!!😱 ::tries to control oneself:: :embarrassed:

Nevertheless, after I cried it out, I would still ship Spuffy 🙂

2. What arguments have you seen about Buffy not meaning the "I love you" in "Chosen", and how would you counter them?
1.) Buffy loved Spike only as a friend - "What show are you watching? Buffy clearly loved Spike more than friend, especially by the end of s7."
2.) Buffy had a brotherly love toward Spike - "EWWW! I wouldn't snuggle like that with my brother!"
3.) Buffy just didn't mean it - "Um, that's not Buffy's character. When she says she loves someone, she always means it."
4.) Buffy only said it because she knew Spike was going to die, so she didn't mean it. - "Yes, Buffy believed Spike was going to die, but she said she loved him after she felt the connection between them when the fire burst. She didn't say it after that look of 'Oh my God! This may be the last time I see Spike!' She said it after she grabbed his hand, the fire burst, and she had like an epiphany!" 🙂
5.) Buffy may have loved Spike, but she loved Angel more - "Give me a break!" :tongue3:

3.) Which Spike/Buffy scenes in the show do you consider the most iconic (regardless of whether you like them or not)?
1.) When Spike first sees Buffy at the Bronze, and Buffy first sees Spike in the alley (how she just whips her hair, lol)
2.) When Spike explains how he wants to help Buffy save the world in "Becoming Part 2" - "Hello cutie!" 😀
3.) Spike stopping himself from shooting Buffy and patting her on the back in FFL
4.) Their kiss in Intervention
5.) When Spike first sees Buffy back from the dead and their brief conversation after Buffy comes downstairs
6.) Their kiss in OMWF
7.) Last scene in "Smashed" - enough said 😀
8.) The last scene in "Beneath You"
9.) Their conversations in "Never Leave Me."
10.) Their scenes in "Touched"
11.) Their conversation in "End of Days"
12.) Their last scene together in "Chosen"

Okay, maybe that's way too many scenes, but Spuffy is just iconic 😀

4. I've read a few people criticise Spike's Chip recently (because of the convienience of it mostly) - How else do you think Spike might have been integrated into the series as a regular if the writers didn't employ the chip? Where would the story have gone with no chip - would it have ended in the same place or some place completely different? Give an overview of your ideas.
I hate the argument that the storyline of Spike's chip was only for convenience because while it may have started out like that, it clearly had a huge impact on his character as the series progressed. It turned out to be way more than a convenience thing.

I honestly have no idea how the story would have gone if Spike had no chip or where the story would have ended. I'd like to think Spike would still have fallen in love with Buffy (since Dru noticed it before he got the chip), but he would have struggled more with his feelings. Maybe he would have dismissed them more easily, since he would still have the ability to fight and possibly kill her.

5. Do you think Spike's feelings for Buffy initially developed because of his thing for Slayers? Would the same have happened with Faith or Kendra?
I think Spike's obsession with Buffy developed because of his thing for Slayers (he was obsessed with them too), but I don't think his feelings for Buffy developed because of his thing for Slayers. Spike fell in love with Buffy the woman, not just Buffy the vampire slayer 😉

 

[StarSlayer]

prophecygrrl agrees: I love your counterarguments for #2! Perfect

And that's me being nice, lol :biggrin3:

 

[prophecygrrl]

And that's me being nice, lol :biggrin3:

Oh, I can definitely empathize with that. Some arguments are just SO ridiculous it's like O.O how did you even come up with that. "Brotherly love" my ass.

 

[xaphania]

1.Would you keep shipping Spike/Buffy if it turned out that Buffy didn't mean that "I love you" in "Chosen" or if the comics 'sink' the ship?

I don't like the comics, don't pay attention to them so what happens in them doesn't matter to me. So, no. Besides, I thought Joss already said in the Chosen commentary that Buffy did mean it when she said 'I love you'. Words to that effect, anyway.

3. Which Spike/Buffy scenes in the show do you consider the most iconic (regardless of whether you like them or not)?

The final scene together in Chosen, the scene at the end of Intervention, the porch scene at the end of Fool for Love and the moment Buffy gives the amulet to Spike.

5. Do you think Spike's feelings for Buffy initially developed because of his thing for Slayers? Would the same have happened with Faith or Kendra?

No.

When I say, "I love you," it's not because I want you or because I can't have you. It has nothing to do with me. I love what you are, what you do, how you try. I've seen your kindness and your strength. I've seen the best and the worst of you. And I understand with perfect clarity exactly what you are. You're a hell of a woman. You're the one, Buffy.

🙂

 

[The Unspoken]

I'm gonna answer the questions sorta/partially, lol.

1.
In the first issue, 'The Long Way Home', there was a huge

Spoiler

Willow/Kennedy/Warren/Amy

retcon (we're talking Titanic huge). That should already be an indication that the comics shouldn't be treated the same as the show.

2.
Spuffy in season 7 is very understated and subtle, which means those opposed to Spuffy, will see what they want to see. There is virtually no physical contact in this season, but it's not because Buffy and Spike don't love each other. It's supposed to contrast season 6, where there was plenty of sex, but it was never healthy.

4.
Spike's chip is no more convenient than Angel's soul. And the chip also fits in with season 4's theme of the conflict between science and magic, the modern and the arcane.
I imagine chipless Spike (lol) would at the very least team up with Buffy to stop Glory, just like he did with Angelus.

 

[Tranquillity]

1.Would you keep shipping Spike/Buffy if it turned out that Buffy didn't mean that "I love you" in "Chosen" or if the comics 'sink' the ship?

I read the comics - I enjoy the comics in a love/hate kind of way. Some crazy sh*t has happened in the comics and if they chose to, they could easily retcon the 'I love you' into something shallow and meaningless. I don't think they will - but there are plenty if disenfranchised Spuffies out there who already feel that they've done just that. I choose to read her curt acknowledgement of his return from the dead as her trying to cover her hurt feelings because he didn't tell her himself, but others see it as confirmation that Spuffy was always an illusion and that Spuffy is effectively dead (did anyone read the cake or broccoli post on LJ?). Whoa i've gone off topic a bit haven't I... Anyway - I would probably continue to ship spuffy right up until the story finally comes to an end because I would always have a sliver of hope that they would get back together again. I still ship Robin and Barney (HIMYM) and the writers broke them up. So I would be of the optimistic 'It's not over till the fat lady sings' view.

2. What arguments have you seen about Buffy not meaning the "I love you" in "Chosen", and how would you counter them?

"She loves him but she's not 'in love' with him"
"She didn't mean it" or "She lied"
"She said it because she knew he was about to die so just said what he wanted to hear"
"Spike said she didn't mean it and Spike is intuative like that"

Mostly I refute such arguments I refer them to this

3. Which Spike/Buffy scenes in the show do you consider the most iconic (regardless of whether you like them or not)?

Flaming Hands in Chosen, the church scene in Beneath You and every time Buffy and Spike are on the Back Steps 🙂

4. I've read a few people criticise Spike's Chip recently (because of the convienience of it mostly) - How else do you think Spike might have been integrated into the series as a regular if the writers didn't employ the chip? Where would the story have gone with no chip - would it have ended in the same place or some place completely different? Give an overview of your ideas.

First up, I'm a big fan of the chip - I don't think its any more convienient that say, Willow becoming a Witch or Angel's soul. The chip allowed Spike to walk a path between demon and human; good and evil and actively decide which side of the line he wanted to be on. But if there was no chip then perhaps the writers could have played up the fact that Spike was an outcast in the demon world to a bigger degree than they did, perhaps then Spike could have been forced to ally with Buffy and leading to his eventual epiphany. But I think that would have been much harder to swallow than the chip.

5. Do you think Spike's feelings for Buffy initially developed because of his thing for Slayers? Would the same have happened with Faith or Kendra?

Maybe. I don't think Spike and Kendra would have hit it off, as others have observed, Kendra would have just killed him (and enjoyed it!). Spike and Faith might have had a fling but nothing serious. I agree with those who said that Spike fell in love with Buffy because of who she was, not what she was.

 

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

Hey everyone! I'm new to the boards but I am madly in love with Spuffy, so I wanted to join in.

Is anyone else slightly perturbed that Buffy refers to Spike as her "dark place"?

Hey, girl! Welcome to The Back Steps, where itis all Spuffy, all the time. 😉

In response to your question, no I'm not perturbed. I think that she said was beautiful and perfect. It gives me shivers. I know exactly what she meant. Or at least I think I do.

Think about it. The darkness in her was that allowed her to let him in. And it's what drew him to her. We all have darkness in our hearts to some extent. A part of us we're scared to show the world. That's one of reasons why Spike and Buffy connect. They share a similar darkness.

Spike is a part of her. He was there for her when she was at her darkest - that's what I think she means. It's not an insult, it's a fact. He brought her back from that. He accepted her and loved her even at her worst. She kisses him after she says this. Her words are loving.

In fact, I'm sick at home watching Dead Things right now. Buffy cut herself off from everyone and Spike was the only one she let in. His darkness trumped even hers. I think her words - "you're my dark place" - suggest a kind of ownership. Like, that he "owns" a part of her that she can never give to someone else. A part of her heart.

I don't think I'm making much sense. But that's my interpretation. I've been doing a lot of thinking on it and hopefully I can come up with something more eloquent soon, lol.

.1 Would you keep shipping Spike/Buffy if it turned out that Buffy didn't mean that "I love you" in "Chosen" or if the comics 'sink' the ship?

To be honest? I'd be devastated if Buffy retracted her words.

Would I stop 'shipping Spuffy? Nope. I'd just burn the comics and denounce Season 8.

2. What arguments have you seen about Buffy not meaning the "I love you" in "Chosen", and how would you counter them?

The most common one I hear (and the most maddening) is that she was "lying to make him feel better because he was about to die." I always see that as an insult to Buffy's character.

I tell them that I like to think that Buffy is not a liar, and that she meant what she said.

3. Which Spike/Buffy scenes in the show do you consider the most iconic (regardless of whether you like them or not)?

Boy, this 'ship is full of epic scenes!

The door scene in Dead Things.

Their first meeting in School Hard.

Their kiss in OMWF.

The balcony scene in Dead Things.

The kiss in Intervention.

5. Do you think Spike's feelings for Buffy initially developed because of his thing for Slayers? Would the same have happened with Faith or Kendra?

No. Of course initially, Spike's interest in Buffy was just that - to kill her and add another notch to his belt. That's why he came to Sunnydale, after all. But he fell in love with her because he got to know her. I believe he saw a similar darkness in her, a kindred spirit - and knew he could relate to her. He also admired and idolized her. He thought she was beautiul. Combined, that makes a good recipe for infatuation. Later, when he got to know her better, he fell for her, the girl, Buffy herself - not the Slayer as he'd been obsessed with before. His speech in Touched perfectly describes his selfless love for her.

---------- Post added at 08:24 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:30 PM ----------

Is anyone else slightly perturbed that Buffy refers to Spike as her "dark place"?

I think Caroline Herman, in her article "Buffy the Vampire Slayer and Dichotomy of Self: A Study in the Shadow Selves of Buffy and Spike" describes what I was trying to say above, but way better:

Buffy and Spike hold one another in tension for five seasons (2, then 4-7). Buffy allows herself to be seduced into Spike's darkness, then draws him into her light. They are intimately related, obstinately apart, able to mutually understand the vast spectrum of pain that exclusively theirs. As Spike says in The Gift (5022), "I know you'll never love me. I know that I'm a monster. But you treat me like a man." (Whedon, "The Gift")

You can read the rest of her article here: http://www.watcherjunior.tv/01/herman.php

 

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

"the dark place"

I really like this;

10. Finally, the dark place. This is one of those things where the pessimists and rabid B/A fans can say is a reference to the season 6 badness; or Buffy's desire to keep Spike a secret. For myself, it fits right into the big framework I've always had which is that the problem with Angel is that he tries to separate his good from his bad, and that to grow, Buffy needs to integrate her light and her dark. Spike was there for her in the dark, but they didn't stay there. They ended up in effulgent radiant beaming light. Fantasy vs. reality again. Buffy can be real with Spike. She can stop pretending that she doesn't have a dark side. She can be whole. I love that. And the image is of a look of longing between them, not the hatred or self-loathing of season 6. They've worked through that ugly dark into something much better. (Also note that the images of them kissing and making love are bathed in radiant light).

http://2maggie2.livejournal.com/30479.html

 

[Tranquillity]

I might also starting to use this to refute the 'she didn't really love him' theorisers too 🙂