Spuffy #6 - General Discussion

[KellGreen]

I have given my moment of (confused) silence for our lost ones.

For some reason, my mind says "if you can't take the heat, get out of the kitchen." And Spuffy is hot (literally on fire), maybe too much so for some😕

We must remember that some people think that it's good for relationships to be lopsided, full of emotional pain, and doomed to end before it began.

For those of us who see a strong relationship as that of true equality, intense passion (both kinds, of course😛) and hope for more, Spuffy will remain in our hearts.

Some people just speak different "languages" of love. I speak fluent Spuffy.

 

[Chosen Enemy]

What I don't understand about the Bangels' way of thinking, is that....
Angel was clearly Buffy's first love. But, damn, that doesn't mean he's her TRUE love, her LAST love. He was her first love, so of course there are deep feelings there that will always remain. But people usually move on from their first love, because first love is rarely the one you'll love for the rest of your life, the only one you'll ever love. I don't understand this. Can't Buffy love another man after the first one?

 

[zobothehobo]

What I don't understand about the Bangels' way of thinking, is that....
Angel was clearly Buffy's first love. But, damn, that doesn't mean he's her TRUE love, her LAST love. He was her first love, so of course there are deep feelings there that will always remain. But people usually move on from their first love, because first love is rarely the one you'll love for the rest of your life, the only one you'll ever love. I don't understand this. Can't Buffy love another man after the first one?

This is what I don't get aswell. I mean like you said, Angel is Buffy's first love and she will never stop loving him. There will always be strong feelings for Angel in Buffy's heart. But that doesn't mean she'll never move on. First love is a beautiful thing, and it's fantastic when it's the final love... but it seems Bangels use the fact Angel is Buffy's first love (and therefore, feelings will always remain) as an argument that he's her final love. That makes no sense to me.

 

[Chosen Enemy]

This is what I don't get aswell. I mean like you said, Angel is Buffy's first love and she will never stop loving him. There will always be strong feelings for Angel in Buffy's heart. But that doesn't mean she'll never move on. First love is a beautiful thing, and it's fantastic when it's the final love... but it seems Bangels use the fact Angel is Buffy's first love (and therefore, feelings will always remain) as an argument that he's her final love. That makes no sense to me.

See, Spuffies can admit that Buffy loves Angel and always will. But Bangel won't admit that Buffy could love Spike.

 

[zobothehobo]

See, Spuffies can admit that Buffy loves Angel and always will. But Bangel won't admit that Buffy could love Spike.

Which is something that irritates me very much. And it's because they believe because Buffy will always have feelings for Angel, he is her final love. She can't love anyone after she's found her final love.

Though recently, I've found a lot of other differences in the way I think about the show and love in general and they way Bangels do. The thread I created about how your ships and characters relate to your personality has opened my eyes into just how different from me the Bangels are.

 

[KellGreen]

What I don't understand about the Bangels' way of thinking, is that....
Angel was clearly Buffy's first love. But, damn, that doesn't mean he's her TRUE love, her LAST love. He was her first love, so of course there are deep feelings there that will always remain. But people usually move on from their first love, because first love is rarely the one you'll love for the rest of your life, the only one you'll ever love. I don't understand this. Can't Buffy love another man after the first one?

Oh, God. I can't imagine if my high school boyfriend (aka my first love) HAD to be the only man i was ever with or ever loved. I mean, he's not a bad person, but...

 

[Chosen Enemy]

Which is something that irritates me very much. And it's because they believe because Buffy will always have feelings for Angel, he is her final love. She can't love anyone after she's found her final love.

Though recently, I've found a lot of other differences in the way I think about the show and love in general and they way Bangels do. The thread I created about how your ships and characters relate to your personality has opened my eyes into just how different from me the Bangels are.

So basically, if we get into psychology for a minute, the way you love and think about love will determine whether you're a spuffy or a bangel. It's a personality thing. That's interesting. Because I don't love romance or cuteness. So I don't find Buffy and Angel appealing. Whereas Spuffy I love because it's the opposite from Bangel.

 

[zobothehobo]

So basically, if we get into psychology for a minute, the way you love and think about love will determine whether you're a spuffy or a bangel. It's a personality thing. That's interesting. Because I don't love romance or cuteness. So I don't find Buffy and Angel appealing. Whereas Spuffy I love because it's the opposite from Bangel.

It's not the only thing that determines it... but I think it has a large part. I think a lot of it is what you value from a relationship. Spuffy and Bangel are oppisites in that respect in many ways and I think that Spuffies and Bangels are too. And this is obviously not everyone, there are going to be exceptions. But for the most part (at least on this board) this seems to make sense to me

 

[prophecygrrl]

So basically, if we get into psychology for a minute, the way you love and think about love will determine whether you're a spuffy or a bangel. It's a personality thing. That's interesting. Because I don't love romance or cuteness. So I don't find Buffy and Angel appealing. Whereas Spuffy I love because it's the opposite from Bangel.

What if you ship both? I know some people who do. I ship Spuffy (obviously lol) but in the past few months I've been liking Bangel as well. Definitely not enough to ship it and I don't want a Buffy/Angel endgame at all, but I don't have a problem with it. They are very different kinds of love though, so I suppose that means that it's possible to like multiple interpretations of what love means.

 

[Litheran]

Something I wrote on the difference of the ships a while ago.

Bangel and Spuffy fans are the ultimate expression of an unmovable object meets an unstoppable force. Basically saying Bangel is like a big two ton weight bringing everything down. And Spuffy is like a tropical thunderstorm ready to go hurricane on your ass at the drop of a hat.

Bangel is for the children at heart, the people who believe in the all consuming, grand scale, all or nothing love.

Spuffy is for the adults, a love of shared experience, trust, pain, passion and an acceptance of faults.

Truthfully; when you look at what the Bangels say about their ship and how they act; it becomes evidently clear that they think love should be easy. You should just meet someone and you should just know their the one and you should never have to work at it. Except that's not what happened with Bangel.

Buffy spent quite a while thinking Angel was creepy stalker dude. (which he was) And I don't necessarily buy that she'll will always love him; it's a long shot. For instance; what if tomorrow a sorcerer was able to return her memories from IWRY?

Being a Spuffy means to me that I believe in real love; the kind where someone doesn't keep loving you because they loved you at one time. They love you because you're their world; and your constantly reminding them of that everyday by being a loveable person.

Not by hitching up stakes (hehe) and setting up a freaking detective agency in L.A.; you bloody wanker!

 

[zobothehobo]

What if you ship both? I know some people who do. I ship Spuffy (obviously lol) but in the past few months I've been liking Bangel as well. Definitely not enough to ship it and I don't want a Buffy/Angel endgame at all, but I don't have a problem with it. They are very different kinds of love though, so I suppose that means that it's possible to like multiple interpretations of what love means.

I think this is it. And I think that's the answer to your question.

Also. again, this is only part of it. I mean your personality/what you value in a relationship/interpret love isn't the only thing that would have you ship one ship over another... And this is also my hypothesis that I can't actually prove. So it's probably not exact...

 

[Tranquillity]

New Questions...

1. What are your favourite "nice moments" from during Buffy and Spike's "dark" period (from Smashed to Seeing Red)?

2. If you were to incorporate a Spike/Buffy reunion in an Angel Season 5 episode, without changing its main structure, which would you choose and how would it happen?

3. (Have I asked this already... can't remember... )Do you think Buffy and Spike had sex before the battle in "Chosen"? Why?

4. Three lowest Spuffy-lows? Three highest Spuffy-highs?

5. Do you think Buffy is the love of Spike's life? Do you think Spike is the love of Buffy's life? Do you believe in that concept (or the concept of soulmates and/or other often mentioned romantic concepts)?

Answer away . . .

 

[Litheran]

1. What are your favourite "nice moments" from during Buffy and Spike's "dark" period (from Smashed to Seeing Red)?

2. If you were to incorporate a Spike/Buffy reunion in an Angel Season 5 episode, without changing its main structure, which would you choose and how would it happen?

3. (Have I asked this already... can't remember... )Do you think Buffy and Spike had sex before the battle in "Chosen"? Why?

4. Three lowest Spuffy-lows? Three highest Spuffy-highs?

5. Do you think Buffy is the love of Spike's life? Do you think Spike is the love of Buffy's life? Do you believe in that concept (or the concept of soulmates and/or other often mentioned romantic concepts)?

1.
When he visits her at the DM Palace and tries to make her leave because she deserves better.; the almost conversation at the beginning of Dead Things; and finally the conversation they had at Xanya's almost wedding.

2.
Damage; Andrew does tell Buffy about Spike and she rushes to L.A. just in time to help him recuperate while he regains use of his hands.

I know where your minds went right there you cheeky buggers....so did mine.


3.
No; I don't believe they consummated their mutual love for each other. I don't think they talked either; at least not anything beyond idle banter. When two people are in sync like Spike and Buffy; they don't need to reassure themselves through constant physical contact. I also don't think they were ready yet to fully start anew. When Spike died it was the death of Spike the demon and the birth of Spike the champion. He is now truly Buffy's equal and worthy of her love. Just the same as she proved herself worthy of his love that last season.

4.
Lows: Seeing Red, Buffy bot; Beat down in Dead Things
Highs: Intervention, After life, Touched, Chosen (I gave one extra high cause I'm a bad boy who doesn't play by the rules; *throws up hand and sneers suggestively*)

5.
Here is my writers minds deconstruction of the whole sordid mess.

Angel is Buffy's soul-mate...let me explain. A soul-mate in my mind is nothing more than the Powers That Be putting a stamp on your soul saying two people need to be together for destiny to work. But Spike turned out to be the fly in the ointment by falling for Buffy and redeeming himself.

Because Spike fits the bill as far as what the Powers deemed necessary as Buffy's soul-mate; (vampire with a soul.) he is suitable for their plans. Because both shows have a central theme of fighting fate and making your own path; it would make sense to me. Angel was the man chosen for her by fate; Spike was the one she chose for herself.

 

[PrettyLilGirl]

1. What are your favourite "nice moments" from during Buffy and Spike's "dark" period (from Smashed to Seeing Red)?

2. If you were to incorporate a Spike/Buffy reunion in an Angel Season 5 episode, without changing its main structure, which would you choose and how would it happen?

3. (Have I asked this already... can't remember... )Do you think Buffy and Spike had sex before the battle in "Chosen"? Why?

4. Three lowest Spuffy-lows? Three highest Spuffy-highs?

5. Do you think Buffy is the love of Spike's life? Do you think Spike is the love of Buffy's life? Do you believe in that concept (or the concept of soulmates and/or other often mentioned romantic concepts)?


1. I have 2 'Older and Far away' Pretty much that whole episode when its like they are having couple moments..like playing cards..and her telling him off for joking about eating people in her house 😀 and he goes to see her at DM 🙂 sayin he will get her money and to leave with him cos shes better then that place

oh wait..and when they are helping Dawn away from the car crash..im not sure why its like a little family 🙂

2. Id have liked her to come find him at some point and say she needed him more then LA did..with fighting and her life 🙂

3. I really argue this point when people say they didnt i believe they did, and i think thats what the writers wanted u to think. Buffy and Spike knew they both might not make it and i think they would have had that one moment..especially as they were finally close. I dont think the writers put it in because it didnt need to be.

4.
Lowest..Bathroom, when buffy beats him up, when she finds out hes been feeding on humans

highest..Touched, Champion, dying..nuff said lol..oh no intervention and after life...and the gift..ok too many 🙂 *guilty smile*

5. I wanted to give a really long intelligent answer here but the simple answer is yes. I think they are the loves of each others lives for the fact that he..well went and got his soul to prove himself, to be a man for him and she looked past everything and believed in him, she saw his soul before he even got it i think, otherwise she'd have got rid ages ago.

 

[StarSlayer]

1. What are your favourite "nice moments" from during Buffy and Spike's "dark" period (from Smashed to Seeing Red)?

1.) In "Doublemeat Palace," when Spike sincerely says, "Buffy" and knows she's not happy working there.
2.) In "Older and Far Away, when Buffy says, "Shut up. He's...sweet" to Spike, and he mockingly responds, "Oh, shut up. He's sweet."
3.) Their scene in "Hell's Bells."
4.) In "Entropy," when Buffy says she knows Spike doesn't hurt her, and he tries to explain that their feelings for each other are real.

2. If you were to incorporate a Spike/Buffy reunion in an Angel Season 5 episode, without changing its main structure, which would you choose and how would it happen

Not Fade Away - Andrew let it slip to Buffy that Angel and Spike came to Italy. Buffy, being more surprised that Spike is now alive, would rush to LA to see for herself. After arriving Wolfram & Hart (since Buffy knows Angel works there and most likely would know where Spike is), Buffy encounters Angel. She finally tells him that she loves Spike and not Angel, and needs to find him. Angel, although hurt by Buffy's confession, accepts it, even tells Buffy he fell in love with Cordelia. Both would share a moment and realize they'll always be friends. Buffy would then find Spike at the poetry slam and they would spend the day together (discuss why Spike never told her he was alive, that she meant what she said in the hellmouth, etc.) before Spike went off to help Angel. 🙂

3. (Have I asked this already... can't remember... )Do you think Buffy and Spike had sex before the battle in "Chosen"? Why?

In my interpretation, no. I don't think they did. I think they cuddled, possibly talked, and shared some kisses.

4. Three lowest Spuffy-lows? Three highest Spuffy-highs?

Lows:
1.) The bathroom scene
2.) The alley scene in "Dead Things"
3.) Buffy cuts her hair (in that she did it because Spike called her "goldilocks" and pointed out how he loves her hair)

Highs:
1.) Flamey hands!!! 😀
2.) "Touched"
3.) The kiss in "Intervention"
4.) All their back-steps scenes (I added one too) 😉

5. Do you think Buffy is the love of Spike's life? Do you think Spike is the love of Buffy's life? Do you believe in that concept (or the concept of soulmates and/or other often mentioned romantic concepts)?

Buffy is definitely the love of Spike's life, without a doubt. My Spuffy heart says that Spike is the love of Buffy's life, and no one else. Yet, my brain says both Angel and Spike were the loves of Buffy's life because she loved them both, but in different ways.

I do believe that someone can be the love of your life, but at the same time, I think you're not limited to one person because people can affect you in different ways. Similarly, I think people can have more than one soulmate. Yet, I don't know if I personally believe in soulmates. If presented through TV or movies, I'll believe it based on the story told.

When it comes to the Buffyverse, I think Buffy and Angel are soulmates in the sense that the universe destined them to be together for a particular purpose. It really has nothing to do with love IMO. I think Buffy and Spike are soulmates based on their love for each other. Together, both their souls are strong, which makes them perfect mates. 😉 (I'm sorry if that sounds korny, but I don't how else to describe it, lol).

 

[PrettyLilGirl]

1.

5.
Here is my writers minds deconstruction of the whole sordid mess.

Angel is Buffy's soul-mate...let me explain. A soul-mate in my mind is nothing more than the Powers That Be putting a stamp on your soul saying two people need to be together for destiny to work. But Spike turned out to be the fly in the ointment by falling for Buffy and redeeming himself.

Because Spike fits the bill as far as what the Powers deemed necessary as Buffy's soul-mate; (vampire with a soul.) he is suitable for their plans. Because both shows have a central theme of fighting fate and making your own path; it would make sense to me. Angel was the man chosen for her by fate; Spike was the one she chose for herself.

I love that 🙂 thats such an amazing way to put it 🙂

 

[zobothehobo]

1. What are your favourite "nice moments" from during Buffy and Spike's "dark" period (from Smashed to Seeing Red)?
I love their exchange in Hells Bells... cute. Spike's cute in Older and Far Away, and when Spike comes to the DMP in DMP.

2. If you were to incorporate a Spike/Buffy reunion in an Angel Season 5 episode, without changing its main structure, which would you choose and how would it happen?
Right at the end. I want her to get wind that Spike and Angel were both in Rome looking for her... The way I imagine it would happen is Andrew accidentally spilled it. Like he didn't want to and told himself he wouldn't, but it's just one of those things that came out when Andrew talks and goes off on a tangent. And then Buffy's like "Spike? As in William? And the former William the Bloody?" And Andrew's like "uh... oops. Yeah... kinda..." And Buffy's like "He's alive?! What? How? Huh?" And Andrew's like "Did I not mention that? Yeah... He's with Angel. He was brought back to life by that necklace thing *tangent about the amulet*" "Andrew, Spike!" "Oh yeah, anyway... so he was like a ghost and then this thing happened and he's real again and yeah." She goes to LA to see for herself because she can't even believe it. She sees them and tells Angel she doesn't agree with what he's doing at W&H and he tells her it's not her place to judge 'cause she doesn't know blah blah blah... it's all very dramatic like Bangel stuff always is. And then Buffy and Spike find some chill "quiet" location to sit and talk... like the back steps. I think Spike finds it first, and Buffy finds him. Normally, it's the other way around... but I think Spike would be trying to stay out of Buffy's way. I think he would think Buffy was there for Angel... And she finds Spike and he gets up to leave and she's like "where are you going?" and he's like "oh, I just thought..." "What?" "I just thought you might want to be alone." "I can be alone with you here." (I love that line so much, I want it repeated) Spike sits down and waits for Buffy to speak and she's waiting for him to talk. Then they do that awkward talk at the same time and they're both like "you go first." Buffy concedes and says something like "It's nice out here." And they small talk and then silence for a bit and then finally Spike gives Buffy some sort of advice about her fight with Angel and she shrugs it off and they go back and forth about it a bit and he's all like "I mean you came all the way out here to-" and she cuts him off and says "Spike, I came here for you. I came to see you, not Angel." And he smiles and she smiles back and that's the end of the scene.

Wow, that was a long answer... almost like a ficlette. haha

3. (Have I asked this already... can't remember... )Do you think Buffy and Spike had sex before the battle in "Chosen"? Why?
I used to say yes automatically. But now that I've re-watched so many times, read so many metas, thought myself about the characters and the relationship, I feel like the answer is no. Buffy and Spike loved each other. But sex in their relationship hadn't been equated to love. The only time it had was in Spike's soulless mind. And the last time that showed itself was in Seeing Red. I imagine their last night in Chosen resembled Touched. They just held each other. I'm not even sure they kissed each other, and if they did it was on the forehead or cheek.

4. Three lowest Spuffy-lows? Three highest Spuffy-highs?
Lows: the bathroom scene, the alley scene, the balcony scene (even though it's the hottest sex scene IMO)
Highs: Chosen, Touched, the Intervention kiss

5. Do you think Buffy is the love of Spike's life? Do you think Spike is the love of Buffy's life? Do you believe in that concept (or the concept of soulmates and/or other often mentioned romantic concepts)?
I've said this before, but the concept there's only one person in this world out there who "completes" you is terribly depressing to me. When I say "soulmate" I mean this person does complete you, but it doesn't necessarily mean they're the only one that can or ever will. When I say "the love of so-and-so's life," I mean the soulmate that best completes them and that they love "most." (most is in quotes because I'm theoretically quantifying love, though I don't believe that's really possible.)

That being said, I think Buffy is the love of Spike's life. He's lived for over a hundred years and she makes him a better man. She makes him a better man than anyone could have ever imagined. She helped him be the only vampire in the whole Buffyverse to ever willingly fight for and win his soul back. That's something special.

I think Spike is Buffy's soulmate. I can't say he's the love of her life, because I honestly don't know. He completes her and she can truly be herself with him. I thin he's the first guy we've seen in canon that it's like that with and I think that's important. That's where the soulmate comes in... I hope he'll be the love of her life and the only guy she's ever felt that comfortable with, but I don't know. I guess I could say Spike is the love of Buffy's life thus far. Yeah, I think that's an accurate statement. Just because I don't believe Angel completed her as much as she thought he did.


Wow, I had long answers... haha Gah this is such a homework distraction!

 

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

I'm sad to hear that we've lost some comrades, and even sadder to hear that they've been seduced by the twisted, dysfunctional Bangel Delusion. Good riddance.

The reality is this: they will never understand us and we will never understand them its a losing battle to relate. Let them have their doomed and sinking ship, and let us have ours - who still has a lot of wind in her sails.

I've said this before, but I truly believe that one of the reasons the Bangels loathe Spuffy so much is because Bangel is threatened by it.

 

[zobothehobo]

I've said this before, but I truly believe that one of the reasons the Bangels loathe Spuffy so much is because Bangel is threatened by it.

I completely agree. Most of what makes me feel that way is that a lot of them can't even admit Spuffy loved each other, while we can pretty much all agree Bangel did. We don't deny the existence of a romantic link in their ship, yet they do in ours. I feel like if a lot of them admitted Spuffy existed in a romantic sense and both of them truly loved one another, they'd admit that Bangel's not as wildly consuming as they suggest. Spuffy's love is for lack of a better word, epic. To quote the fabulous Logan Echolls, "Spanning years and continents. Lives ruined, bloodshed. EPIC." They're love is so epic, to admit they loved at all would be admitting Angel isn't the only contender for Buffy's heart, AKA she let someone else in, AKA Bangel isn't the ultimate everything. It is not the alpha and the omega for Buffy, it is only the alpha.

 

[StarSlayer]

I really need to finish my meta where it's clear as day that Buffy loved Spike. I know we Spuffies believe, but I've been working on for non-believers, lol. Life has just been keeping me extremely busy...