Spuffy S7: Friends or Lovers?

[thevikingsgirl]

Season 5 of Angel was definitely my favorite. I thought season 4 sucked.

 

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

Maybe what we need to do is find a group of people who have never seen a single episode of Buffy or Angel, let them watch all of the key Bangel and Spuffy episodes, and then vote on whether they believe that Buffy really loved one, the other, or both vampires. That might be interesting as well as informative.

Well, this is basically what I did with my mother. A couple years ago, we watched all of Buffy/Angel together. She had no preconceived notions about it. And you know what she said at the end? She said she thought it was interesting that there was such debate among the fandom regarding if Buffy loved Spike. She said it seemed pretty obvious to her that Buffy loved Spike, based on the way she "treated and looked at him."

---------- Post added at 05:52 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:24 PM ----------

I see what you mean. And who knows, maybe, in the end, Bangel will be the winner. But it would be a much different relationship, probably with lots of joking, fun, and fighting. And if both characters are happy in the relationship, then I'll accept it. I still won't like it though. 😀

Hope you don't think that I'm butting into your conversation, but I like talking with you. 🙂

I agree with you. I could accept it if Bangel were, in the end, the couple left standing. I definitely wouldn't like it, but in the end, I just want our Buffy to be happy. And if Angel can make her happy, then so be it.

I WILL ALWAYS be a Spuffy, they will always be my preferred ship. That won't change. But...if Buffy ends up with Angel in the end, I'll deal.

I'm quite torn however. I don't really want Spike and Buffy to get together now. I kinda feel like their time now is over. They've both changed, and I can't really see it anymore. Nowadays I'm more interested in Spike being with Angel. Buffy can end up alone. 😀

I know what you mean by this! On some level, I want to remember Spuffy how they were. And you're right, regardless of where Spike is and who she's/he's with, Spike will always have a part of her heart. Just as Buffy will always be a big love of Spike's life. They had a huge impact on each other's lives, went through so much together, it would be hard for each to ever forget each other.

I think Buffy thinks about Spike at night, when she's alone.

Spuffy doesn't have to be together for me to be happy. I know what a positive difference they each made in each others lives. Spike is with her wherever she goes, and I know she thinks of him. They taught each other alot and they won't forget the impact they've had on each others lives. Friends, lovers...the very nature of these are that they are all too often transitory. Yet, the things we learn from our relationships and friendships will always stay with us.

I'm starting to look at Spuffy from a different perspective. Perhaps their time is over, as you say. If that is the case though, it doesn't make me love them any less.

After all, I hardcore ship Cangel, and there time is certainly over. But IMO Cordy had a big hand in making Angel the man he is today, in keeping him on his mission. So, in my book, she was one of the most important women in his life.

So I guess what I'm saying is that the future possibility of a ship is not what keeps me shipping them. But Spike and Buffy still have so much unfinished business...I hope that they get the chance to explore what they could have together. Someday.

Perhaps yes, Spike's future is with someone else. And perhaps Buffy's future is with Angel...but man, I sure hope not. 😉 to be honest, Spangel kind of depresses me even though I love it so much. It depresses me because it would be so hot and it probably won't ever happen (except in Buff's dreams, lol).

Well, Angel was relatively unattainable to everyone. 😀 As for the brushing off, that was part of what made it so interesting: the development. And yeah, they had to get together sometime. Quite honestly it seems like everyone has been with everyone on the show. 😀

Regarding Cangel, right?

It's interesting, because even back in the day in "Angel", Cordy could still make Angel laugh, when no one else could. Little did he know that he'd fall for her years later. 🙂

Haha, yeah, they were pretty different. But they both were loyal, believed in doing what's right, and many other things that I can't remember but I'm sure exist...

Well, Cordy was perfect for Angel. IMO, they were soul-mates. Their relationship was very realistic. They evolved from dear friends and then fell in love. Happens all the time. They made each other better people, as you said. I always wished they'd had a real chance to be together.

Did you know that the original script for 'Chosen' included a conversation between Buffy and Angel where he was going to tell her he was in love with Cordy? It was cut because of time constraints.

Angel season 5, however, is the best season I've ever seen in my entire LIFE. 😀 Of anything, really. It's so amazing. It's lighthearted, it's sentimental, it gets dark, it's the funniest thing I've ever watched, it's interesting... It's completely perfect. So so so fabulous. Even FANTABULOUS, as annoying a word as that is. 😀 It really is the best season anyone has ever seen. I though that pretty much every Angel season other than S5 was kinda all over the place with no real plot and way too dark. But S5 had a clear plot with a good amount of plot twists, and a lovely combination of light and dark and sentimental and funny. Angel was the funniest he's ever been, Fred/ [Illyria] was beautiful and too lovable for words, Gunn was the cutest and sweetest thing ever, and Wes was so amazing. They had the greatest ships I'd ever seen, and so many ships that everyone's always wanted became canon in this season. So I'd DEFINITELY recommend it. 😀

So true. Season 5 is fantastic on all levels.

perhaps. I doubt that she was thinking of Angel all the time though. Like, throughout S6- S7, I'd bet her thoughts were elsewhere. She may always love him, and she may always have feelings for him, but I'd say it's also true for Spike. But then again, maybe she'll and up with Faith. Or Xander. Or Riley. Or Batsu, seeing as she was her first

Spoiler

lesbian love

. I'm still rooting for her to end up alone, however. 😀

I know, it's a bit flattering on Angel's part to assume that Buffy was always thinking of him. I mean, come on! Buffy had more important and pressing matters to deal with circa S6-7.

Hahaha, this is all reminding me off in Angel S5 when Angel is like

Spoiler

"Ours is a forever love"

, totally acting like a jealous little kid. 😀

He also got super-jealous in 'Chosen' regarding Spike. 😉

Thank you, thank you. 😀 I almost don't want to win you over to the spuffy side. (Doesn't "spuffy" remind you of the pillow fight scene with the potentials in Buffy S7? 😀 It sounds like bits of fluff flying around)

Have you checked out white avenger's "Adopt a Bangel" thread? Ha, ha it's pretty funny.

Yep. Which is why I'm planning on having my big Bangel rewatch this summer. I generally avoid the "bangel seasons", so I don't think I really understand Bangel as much as I'd like to. But, during my Bangel rewatch, I'll hopefully be able to come up with even MORE awesome bangel arguments. 😀

I'm doing a Bangel re-watch right now, just for that reason, to understand them better and by extension, to attempt to get some perspective on why people love them so much. I too tend to re-watch S5-7 more often then the earlier ones.

 

[Wishing Oceans]

Well, this is basically what I did with my mother. A couple years ago, we watched all of Buffy/Angel together. She had no preconceived notions about it. And you know what she said at the end? She said she thought it was interesting that there was such debate among the fandom regarding if Buffy loved Spike. She said it seemed pretty obvious to her that Buffy loved Spike, based on the way she "treated and looked at him."

Yeah, I suppose it all depends on the person. Everyone has different ideas of what constitutes as love, and everyone has different values that they look for. Like, all my relationship are pretty much just like Spuffy, except for the crazy depression/ bondage stuff of course. So I can definitely understand and relate with 'ships like that. 😀

Hope you don't think that I'm butting into your conversation, but I like talking with you.

Of course not. 😀 You're my favorite poster, so any input from you is always welcome.

I agree with you. I could accept it if Bangel were, in the end, the couple left standing. I definitely wouldn't like it, but in the end, I just want our Buffy to be happy. And if Angel can make her happy, then so be it.

You're too nice, Becky. 😀 Although I love Buffy, which is slightly weird since she's a fictional character 😀, I still have a set plan for her. Like, I REALLY don't want her to ever get old or retire. It just seems out of her nature. IMO, she'll be fighting the good fight to the very end. She's a wild girl that's constantly changing and will never really settle down. It's a lot like the song "I Walk Alone" by Greenday. Although she will occasionally stop on her road when somebody finds her, she's just going to keep on going, never really staying in one place, although she may occasionally want company.

I WILL ALWAYS be a Spuffy, they will always be my preferred ship. That won't change. But...if Buffy ends up with Angel in the end, I'll deal.

Same, same. 🙂

I know what you mean by this! On some level, I want to remember Spuffy how they were. And you're right, regardless of where Spike is and who she's/he's with, Spike will always have a part of her heart. Just as Buffy will always be a big love of Spike's life. They had a huge impact on each other's lives, went through so much together, it would be hard for each to ever forget each other.

I think Buffy thinks about Spike at night, when she's alone.

Again, I agree.

I'm starting to look at Spuffy from a different perspective. Perhaps their time is over, as you say. If that is the case though, it doesn't make me love them any less.

Yep, yep. 😀 Although whenever I watch them I'm like "oh they'll be together forever they're so amazing" it does appear that they're different people now. Like,

Spoiler

Buffy robbing a bank and randomly sleeping with a girl?

But, not all for the worse. It seemed like in Btvs Spike often defined himself through Buffy. In fact, in S7 it seemed as though Buffy was the only person Spike cared about or talked to at all. He made no effort to repair his relationship with Dawn, or anyone else. His entire life was basically just Buffy, Buffy, Buffy. But now, I think he has a much more clear and healthy thing going on, and he'll probably end up with some random girl. (Or guy! ) Like

Spoiler

Spider or Illyria

After all, I hardcore ship Cangel, and there time is certainly over. But IMO Cordy had a big hand in making Angel the man he is today, in keeping him on his mission. So, in my book, she was one of the most important women in his life.

I agree. 🙂 Cangel is one of those ships that I want to still like, but I just don't. I have a lot of respect for it, but I'm more into Spike or Darla when it comes to Angel. They bring so much emotion out of him.

So I guess what I'm saying is that the future possibility of a ship is not what keeps me shipping them. But Spike and Buffy still have so much unfinished business...I hope that they get the chance to explore what they could have together. Someday.

Maybe. I guess we'll see how that turns out. Who knows, maybe Buffy's

Spoiler

threesome dreams

are foreshadowing and we're going to get a Spanguffy ship. 😀

Perhaps yes, Spike's future is with someone else. And perhaps Buffy's future is with Angel...but man, I sure hope not. to be honest, Spangel kind of depresses me even though I love it so much. It depresses me because it would be so hot and it probably won't ever happen (except in Buff's dreams, lol).

Who knows, it might. Although I have a feeling that Spike and Angel would have a hard time actually being "together" in the dating sense, seeing how they love to pretend to hate each other. 😀 But, friends with benefits, fun... 😀

Regarding Cangel, right?

It's interesting, because even back in the day in "Angel", Cordy could still make Angel laugh, when no one else could. Little did he know that he'd fall for her years later.

Yeah, that's what makes their early relations to funny. Just like S2 Spuffy. 😀

OK, this is so so off-topic, but I wonder why nobody ever makes fanfics where S2 Spuffy is sent forward in time to S6 Spuffy, preferable during Smashed/ Wrecked? I've read plenty of fics where they're sent BACK in time, but I don't see how that's particularly interesting. Someone really needs to write a story like that. It'd be so funny.

Did you know that the original script for 'Chosen' included a conversation between Buffy and Angel where he was going to tell her he was in love with Cordy? It was cut because of time constraints.

Yep, I heard you say that once before. 🙂 It would've been nice if they hadn't cut it; All the Bangel's seem to go crazy over that scene, saying it meant that they'll be together someday... 😀

I know, it's a bit flattering on Angel's part to assume that Buffy was always thinking of him. I mean, come on! Buffy had more important and pressing matters to deal with circa S6-7.

My thoughts exactly. 🙂 As Spike said in Destiny, "So I guess that means she was thinking of you, all those times I was puttin' it to her!"

He also got super-jealous in 'Chosen' regarding Spike. 😉

Oh, Angel. What are we gonna do with him? 🙂

Have you checked out white avenger's "Adopt a Bangel" thread? Ha, ha it's pretty funny.

Haha yeah I did. And it was so true. 😀 I was planning on adopting Tajana (PrincessBuffy16), but you got her first. So then I decided to adopt Eleftheria. But now I'm thinking of adopting the lovely Meg (Imagineryygirl).

I'm doing a Bangel re-watch right now, just for that reason, to understand them better and by extension, to attempt to get some perspective on why people love them so much. I too tend to re-watch S5-7 more often then the earlier ones.

Same. I keep trying to do a rewatch, but it's hard to subject myself to it. Whenever I watch those overly dramatic Bangel scenes where it's like "just tell me you don't love me" "I can't!!" I just fastforward. 😀

 

[thevikingsgirl]

Last night my husband and I watched the 2nd to last episode of season 7 (finale tonight! His first time, awww). I was thinking about how it ends with Buffy kissing Angel, and Spike watching, having apparently tracked either her or Caleb or both there. We're made to think he's going to get all evil and vengeful over her kissing Angel (ugh, my least favorite scene in season 7, Buffy kissing Angel...lol). But he goes back to Buffy's house and waits for her to come back. He doesn't try to interfere, and he doesn't hatch a plot against her. I was thinking about why they bothered to bring Angel back; the necklace could've come through some other venue and Angel didn't stay and fight; his appearance was pretty pointless from a plot perspective. So what do we get out of it?

For one, we get that Spike has grown up. He loves Buffy, and he wants her to be happy, and he's not going to turn against her now no matter what happens.
For another, we get to find out that Buffy may still have feelings for Angel, but that she will also send him away and go into battle (and bed... 😉 ) with Spike at her side.

It seems to me that the whole point of bringing Angel back and his interaction with Buffy was to show that Buffy and Spike really love each other.

 

[Kelsey]

I know what you mean by this! On some level, I want to remember Spuffy how they were. And you're right, regardless of where Spike is and who she's/he's with, Spike will always have a part of her heart. Just as Buffy will always be a big love of Spike's life. They had a huge impact on each other's lives, went through so much together, it would be hard for each to ever forget each other.

I think Buffy thinks about Spike at night, when she's alone.

Spuffy doesn't have to be together for me to be happy. I know what a positive difference they each made in each others lives. Spike is with her wherever she goes, and I know she thinks of him. They taught each other alot and they won't forget the impact they've had on each others lives. Friends, lovers...the very nature of these are that they are all too often transitory. Yet, the things we learn from our relationships and friendships will always stay with us.

I'm starting to look at Spuffy from a different perspective. Perhaps their time is over, as you say. If that is the case though, it doesn't make me love them any less.

Shockingly, I disagree with you. =P Or just the angle that their time has past. I think they can pretty easily be together once the reunion happens. They were more or less at the couple stage in S7, and they're both old enough and wise enough to know how to act once they are together. Then again, I didn't read the comics, so their relationship is relatively "fresh" to the story.

But if Spuffy's time has past, I just want to say that I think Bangel's time has past, too. They're such different people now.

I agree with you about Cangel! I really enjoyed Cangel. Again, we get a more serious, real-to-life love story than Bangel's "forever love." I haven't watched Angel in a long time, but I do remember really enjoying Cangel.

 

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

Last night my husband and I watched the 2nd to last episode of season 7 (finale tonight! His first time, awww). I was thinking about how it ends with Buffy kissing Angel, and Spike watching, having apparently tracked either her or Caleb or both there. We're made to think he's going to get all evil and vengeful over her kissing Angel (ugh, my least favorite scene in season 7, Buffy kissing Angel...lol). But he goes back to Buffy's house and waits for her to come back. He doesn't try to interfere, and he doesn't hatch a plot against her. I was thinking about why they bothered to bring Angel back; the necklace could've come through some other venue and Angel didn't stay and fight; his appearance was pretty pointless from a plot perspective. So what do we get out of it?

For one, we get that Spike has grown up. He loves Buffy, and he wants her to be happy, and he's not going to turn against her now no matter what happens.
For another, we get to find out that Buffy may still have feelings for Angel, but that she will also send him away and go into battle (and bed... 😉 ) with Spike at her side.

It seems to me that the whole point of bringing Angel back and his interaction with Buffy was to show that Buffy and Spike really love each other.

AH! This is the BEST post I've read all week! *gives you mass karma*

I agree with everything you've said. The B/A supporters always use this scene as "evidence" that there is a future for the two, but I have always seen Angel's appearance in this episode as completely pointless to the plot, and at worst, blatant fan service.

I think one one level, Joss knew the fans wanted an Angel cross-over, one last time. He knew fans wanted some sort of "closure" for Buffy and Angel. The kiss, the 'cookie dough' speech, and the subsequent Buffy asking Angel to leave and spending the night with Spike were meant to make all the fans happy. Joss wasn't about to take a stance on the Spuffy/Bangel debate just yet.

Also, in the original script, Angel was originally going to tell Buffy how he loved Cordy, and about Conner. But in the end, it wasn't shot because Joss thought it would confuse viewers who maybe hadn't been keeping up with Angel's own show.

There's a lot of interesting trivia regarding the episode on this page: The Buffy and Angel Trivia Guide

 

[white avenger]

I think Buffy thinks about Spike at night, when she's alone.

This is gonna get a lot of eyes rolling, but I can't help it, I just HAVE to say it, so, eyeballs, get ready to roll!

In the John Wayne movie, "The Cowboys," the Duke is about to leave on a long cattle drive. He's saying goodbye to his wife, and she says, "I'll think of you when I go to bed at night."

Wayne smirks in the way that only he ever could, and replies, "You do, and you won't be getting much sleep."

I'll never be able to think of that line again without seeing Buffy and Spike, and wondering just how much sleep our Slayer manages to get.

 

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

Shockingly, I disagree with you. =P Or just the angle that their time has past. I think they can pretty easily be together once the reunion happens. They were more or less at the couple stage in S7, and they're both old enough and wise enough to know how to act once they are together. Then again, I didn't read the comics, so their relationship is relatively "fresh" to the story.

But if Spuffy's time has past, I just want to say that I think Bangel's time has past, too. They're such different people now.

I agree with you about Cangel! I really enjoyed Cangel. Again, we get a more serious, real-to-life love story than Bangel's "forever love." I haven't watched Angel in a long time, but I do remember really enjoying Cangel.

Well, I don't necessarily think their time is past...frankly, I just don't know how anything is going to pan out. I believe unquestionably that Buffy and Spike had a very special connection, and that the importance of each other in each others lives can not be overstated, but...

On some level, I want Spike to find his own path, his own destiny that for once, is not linked to a girl he loves. On the other hand, nothing would make me happier then to see Buffy and Spike fighting side-by-side again. *sigh* Spike is my favorite character, and I want him - for once - to do something for himself. I'm not sure he can do that when Buffy's around, because he cares so much about her and believes in her so much, I believe he'll always make "her mission his."

I agree about Bangel's time being past, obviously. I'm just scared, honestly...that Joss will have them end up together in the end. For him, it was always about the two of them. But, if he does one day stomp on the head of the shipper wars, by making a clear stance on who ends up with who - fans are going to be mighty angry. I just don't think he'll do that though. He wants fans to keep arguing, keep speculating...that's what keeps his Buffyverse alive.

I'm not giving up my Spuffiness by any means...I'm just preparing for the worst 😉

---------- Post added at 11:45 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:44 AM ----------

in Chosen commentary Joss said it was fan service.

See, I knew it! Totally fan-service.

 

[ubi4soft]

There's the transcript (Transcript) Audio commentary for 7.22 Chosen - stormwreath

[Angel fades into the shadows]

This exit for Angel was meant to mirror his first exit; him backing off in the darkness. Something hopefully iconic enough, and something to give people hope that Buffy and Angel might one day work out, because *some* fans "“ now, I realise not many, but there were a few fans who feel that the Buffy/Angel romance was, like, a big deal. And clearly I thought Parker was the most important romantic relationship of her life; other people disagreed; that's fine, I guess they can do that. They care about the Angel thing. Some people care about the Spike thing. I don't know why we couldn't get Parker in there too, but apparently"¦ whatever. That vocal minority who care about Buffy and Angel meant that we had to do service by him.

BTW about trivia, there's a continuous shot scene from Buffy/Angel kissing to Spike & First!Buffy. Well Sarah was near James and David was kissing her stunt double.

 

[GrrArghx]

I'm NOT saying this as a Bangel: But, I thought Angel belonged in the series finale. Even if it was only for a minute. He was there from the beginning and he was such a big part of the show while he was on there. It wouldn't have mattered to me if he were kissing Buffy or not, I was just glad he was there. It felt right. Of course I didn't mind the kissing 😛

& whether it was 'fan service' or not, it still happened 😀

 

[Imaginaryygirl]

I'm quite torn however. I don't really want Spike and Buffy to get together now. I kinda feel like their time now is over. They've both changed, and I can't really see it anymore. Nowadays I'm more interested in Spike being with Angel. Buffy can end up alone. 😀

Yeah, I can definitely see Buffy being a loner. I mean some characters would just be better off (Harry Potter anyone? Or am I alone on that. 😛 ) Besides, Buffy's relationships never end on a happy note. Poor girl. 🙁

Really? Oh, I'd definitely recommend watching them. I never really feel as though I understand a ship or a character until I've watched their whole story.

Angel seasons 3-4 are generally considered the worst seasons EVER, but they are still extremely telling and hold a lot of information and crazy events. Like

Spoiler

Angel's son and CORDY together, and Cordy having a baby from Angel's son.

Angel season 5, however, is the best season I've ever seen in my entire LIFE. 😀 Of anything, really. It's so amazing. It's lighthearted, it's sentimental, it gets dark, it's the funniest thing I've ever watched, it's interesting... It's completely perfect. So so so fabulous. Even FANTABULOUS, as annoying a word as that is. 😀 It really is the best season anyone has ever seen. I though that pretty much every Angel season other than S5 was kinda all over the place with no real plot and way too dark. But S5 had a clear plot with a good amount of plot twists, and a lovely combination of light and dark and sentimental and funny. Angel was the funniest he's ever been, Fred/ [Illyria] was beautiful and too lovable for words, Gunn was the cutest and sweetest thing ever, and Wes was so amazing. They had the greatest ships I'd ever seen, and so many ships that everyone's always wanted became canon in this season. So I'd DEFINITELY recommend it. 😀

I'm definitely going to take the time to watch Angel 3-5 like it was meant to be watched: in order and all the way through. I sadly can't afford the DVD sets right now. College has me drained of all cash. D: But I think TNT has all of the episodes online, so I'll check those out.

Haha I definitely watched one of the episodes on TNT one morning regarding

Spoiler

a pregnant Cordy and Connor living together in an abandoned building.

. Nothing had ever caught me so off guard before. 😀 That was when I realized it might be a good idea to do some research or watch the episodes in order. I'm leaning towards option 2. xD

Oh, I've seen a lot of season 5 episodes and they are definitley the most entertaining. Spike and Angel's bickering was the best thing in the world. Cavemen vs. Astronauts? Amazing. 😀

But seriously. 😀 It's so odd how a lot of Bangels (not you) love that quote and find it terribly romantic. As you said, I view it more as the downfall of that ship.

Yeah, I never saw that quote as romantic. I never understood why fellow Bangel's ever did. 😀 Her tone of voice was enough to give it away if anything. It was definitely the start of my Bangel ship plummeting to the ocean floor. xD The leverage (for lack of a better word) you Spuffies have over us Bangel's is the friendship that developed between Buffy and Spike. That's more than I can say for her and Angel.

Perhaps. I doubt that she was thinking of Angel all the time though. Like, throughout S6- S7, I'd bet her thoughts were elsewhere. She may always love him, and she may always have feelings for him, but I'd say it's also true for Spike. But then again, maybe she'll and up with Faith. Or Xander. Or Riley. Or Batsu, seeing as she was her first

Spoiler

lesbian love

. I'm still rooting for her to end up alone, however. 😀

Oh I bet her mind was hardly on Angel at least during season 6. Seven had a little more Angel on the brain. xD But very little. Regarding the comic books I've heard the writers are putting a little flirtation and possibilities for a potential romance between

Spoiler

Xander

and Buffy. When I first heard that, I wanted to scream. Like really? No. They're BFF's. Keep it that way.

Hahaha, this is all reminding me off in Angel S5 when Angel is like

Spoiler

"Ours is a forever love"

, totally acting like a jealous little kid. 😀

Hahaha jealous Angel is the best. 😀

Thank you, thank you. 😀 I almost don't want to win you over to the spuffy side. (Doesn't "spuffy" remind you of the pillow fight scene with the potentials in Buffy S7? 😀 It sounds like bits of fluff flying around)

haha it totally does now that you mention it. xD Now whenever I see that scene, I'll be thinking Spuffy. 😀

Yep. Which is why I'm planning on having my big Bangel rewatch this summer. I generally avoid the "bangel seasons", so I don't think I really understand Bangel as much as I'd like to. But, during my Bangel rewatch, I'll hopefully be able to come up with even MORE awesome bangel arguments. 😀

Perfect! Then I'll have a Spuffy rewatch this summer and hopefully be coming up with some more Spuffy arguments. 😀

Haha yeah I did. And it was so true. I was planning on adopting Tajana (PrincessBuffy16), but you got her first. So then I decided to adopt Eleftheria. But now I'm thinking of adopting the lovely Meg (Imagineryygirl).

Awh, I'd be honored. 😀

I'm NOT saying this as a Bangel: But, I thought Angel belonged in the series finale. Even if it was only for a minute. He was there from the beginning and he was such a big part of the show while he was on there. It wouldn't have mattered to me if he were kissing Buffy or not, I was just glad he was there. It felt right. Of course I didn't mind the kissing

& whether it was 'fan service' or not, it still happened

I agree with you on this. I'm not saying that because I'm a Bangel either, but I do really feel like his presence was needed for the series finale. He'd been there since "Welcome to the Hellmouth", it was only appropriate.

However, I felt the kiss didn't make much sense. I'm still all for Bangel, but the kiss just felt like..."Oh what the hell. It's our last episode." Like, I may not have kept up with Angel that much, but I even I knew he moved on to Cordy and Buffy was dealing with her feelings for Spike. It just seemed a little odd that they made out for a few minutes and then when it was over they continued on like that didn't just happen, or that wasn't abnormal or anything. I feel like I'm probably the only Bangel in the world to ever say that, but hey, I can't help that that's how I view that scene.

 

[white avenger]

BTW about trivia, there's a continuous shot scene from Buffy/Angel kissing to Spike & First!Buffy. Well Sarah was near James and David was kissing her stunt double.

I KNEW IT! I KNEW IT! The real Buffy would NEVER lock lips with nasty ol' Angel (Ptooie. We will speak of him no more!) when she had Spike all hot and ready back at Slayer Central.

I knew it all along. Just like the REAL Buffy would never sully Spike's memory by cuddling up to the Immortal in Rome.

Ah, vindication is truly sweet!

---------- Post added at 07:13 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:07 PM ----------

I'm NOT saying this as a Bangel: But, I thought Angel belonged in the series finale. Even if it was only for a minute. He was there from the beginning and he was such a big part of the show while he was on there. It wouldn't have mattered to me if he were kissing Buffy or not, I was just glad he was there. It felt right. Of course I didn't mind the kissing 😛

& whether it was 'fan service' or not, it still happened 😀

And I'm not saying this as a Spuffy shipper when I say that it shows how much Buffy has grown, both as a person and as a champion, that this time, she was the one to realize that Angel was needed more somewhere other than Sunnydale. In Season 3, for better or worse, it was Angel who saw the need to go, while Buffy wanted him to stay. In Season 7, it was Buffy who saw the need for him to go, while he wanted to stay.

 

[Wishing Oceans]

Yeah, I can definitely see Buffy being a loner. I mean some characters would just be better off (Harry Potter anyone? Or am I alone on that. ) Besides, Buffy's relationships never end on a happy note. Poor girl.

Interesting point about Harry Potter. I honestly never compared Harry and Buffy together before, but I definitely will now. Although, while reading HP, I'd always thought Buffy should end up with Ginny, which, obviously,

Spoiler

he did.

It seemed like after

Spoiler

defeating Voldemort

he would be able to more or less "retire" and settle down with his love. 🙂 As the last words of the series went, "all was well". But still, I'll think about that. (By the way, are you a HP geek like I am? 😀 )

I'm definitely going to take the time to watch Angel 3-5 like it was meant to be watched: in order and all the way through. I sadly can't afford the DVD sets right now. College has me drained of all cash. D: But I think TNT has all of the episodes online, so I'll check those out.

Ahh, college. I can't wait 'til I'm old enough to go, it sounds so fun. But anyway, maybe you could rent them from the library. I used to do that all the time, before I became in love with Buffy/ Angel.

Haha I definitely watched one of the episodes on TNT one morning regarding

Spoiler

a pregnant Cordy and Connor living together in an abandoned building.

. Nothing had ever caught me so off guard before. That was when I realized it might be a good idea to do some research or watch the episodes in order. I'm leaning towards option 2.

Definitely. 😀 Season 3+4 will probably be a bit torturous to watch, but there are still some AMAZING scenes that I wouldn't have wanted to miss for the world. 🙂

Oh, I've seen a lot of season 5 episodes and they are definitley the most entertaining. Spike and Angel's bickering was the best thing in the world. Cavemen vs. Astronauts? Amazing.

Oh my gosh, yes! That was one of the funniest scenes in existance. I love when Angel is like

Spoiler

"it's not about what I want!"

Unbelievably funny. 😀

Yeah, I never saw that quote as romantic. I never understood why fellow Bangel's ever did. Her tone of voice was enough to give it away if anything. It was definitely the start of my Bangel ship plummeting to the ocean floor. xD The leverage (for lack of a better word) you Spuffies have over us Bangel's is the friendship that developed between Buffy and Spike. That's more than I can say for her and Angel.

Yeah, some Bangelers kinda confuse me (no offense to all you Bangelers, of course.). Like, I visit other websites occasionally, and I look up 'shippers wars. And they say the most ridiculous things... But I digress. 😀 Friendship is a pretty touchy subject though. Like, I love Dangel, and that didn't exactly have friendship. But Cangel did, and I don't particuarly like that, although it had some adorable scenes that are literally impossible not to fall in love with. You'll see. But with Bangel, even Joss says it's "an eternal love". And if Joss believes it, then friendship or not, they'll probably get together again.

But I've recently (like, a couple minutes ago 😀 ) realized what their "everlasting love" is really like. Like, I find it similar to Riley's speech in As You Were. Riley said that Buffy was the first woman he ever loved, all the bad things she did didn't touch her, and he'd always kinda love her. But, at the same time, he loved his new life and he loved his new wife, and he wasn't going to get in another relationship with his past lover just because he would always slightly love her. It's the same with Bangel. They were each others first real loves, and they'll always love each other. But they DO have new lives and they DO have new partners who they love very much and are not going to leave for past lover. Like, Angel wasn't going to leave Cordy for Buffy if he could, and Buffy wasn't going to leave Spike for Angel if she could, if that makes sense.

Oh I bet her mind was hardly on Angel at least during season 6. Seven had a little more Angel on the brain. xD But very little. Regarding the comic books I've heard the writers are putting a little flirtation and possibilities for a potential romance between

Spoiler

Xander

and Buffy. When I first heard that, I wanted to scream. Like really? No. They're BFF's. Keep it that way.

Exactly what I was thinking! I really hate it when people ruin a perfectly good friendship. It was like I was reading some awful fanfic. Funny story, I actually DID read a fanfic suspiciously similar to it. So when I found out it actually happened I was quite confused... Second thought really wasn't that funny. 😉

Hahaha jealous Angel is the best.

Totally. 😀

haha it totally does now that you mention it. Now whenever I see that scene, I'll be thinking Spuffy.

Haha yeah... You know, I still can't believe you're a Bangeler. You're... different from them. (To quote from Hush 😀 ) In fact, you sound a lot like our Becky (Joan The Vampire Slayer). But I'm probably just imagining things.

Perfect! Then I'll have a Spuffy rewatch this summer and hopefully be coming up with some more Spuffy arguments.

Wow, that's ironic. When I wrote that I was positive that that was what you'd say in response. 🙂 And you can count on it, I can't wait. I'm discovering new things about Spuffy every day, and I've been watching Spuffy scenes since I was eight.

Awh, I'd be honored.

🙂

I agree with you on this. I'm not saying that because I'm a Bangel either, but I do really feel like his presence was needed for the series finale. He'd been there since "Welcome to the Hellmouth", it was only appropriate.

I dunno, I have mixed feelings about it. I thought it felt slightly out of place, but you're probably right. I kinda reminds me of how in Angel S5

Spoiler

Lindsey was brought back after being gone since S2. He was there in the beginning, they needed to bring him back in the end. But I LOVE Lindsey, so my opinion's probably biased. 😀

However, I felt the kiss didn't make much sense. I'm still all for Bangel, but the kiss just felt like..."Oh what the hell. It's our last episode." Like, I may not have kept up with Angel that much, but I even I knew he moved on to Cordy and Buffy was dealing with her feelings for Spike. It just seemed a little odd that they made out for a few minutes and then when it was over they continued on like that didn't just happen, or that wasn't abnormal or anything. I feel like I'm probably the only Bangel in the world to ever say that, but hey, I can't help that that's how I view that scene.[/spoiler]

Nah. don't worry m' dear. I criticise my 'ships all the time. Part of really loving and understanding a ship is to distinguish and accept that it has faults. No ship is perfect, and the person who really understands their ship is the person who knows the most and best arguments against it.

Like, I know TONS of awesome arguments against Spuffy that no one's ever used, and I always know how to rebut anything that I say in an argument/ debate. But, since I'm not about to let the other side win, I keep it to myself. 😀

As for 'ships in general: I'm in a pretty neutral place right now. Like, I really hate Bangel, it kinda grosses me out... Like, in Graduation Day pt 2 with the biting... Like, seriously, Bangel fans CANNOT say that they love that scene, and then say that they hate the Spuffy S6 relationship that "confused pain and love and sex and violence", because that scene was WAY darker than anything in S6. 😀 I mean, he was KILLING her, LITERALLY, and she was getting off on it! I dunno, it's probably just me being crazy, but I just can't watch that scene. 🙂 Plus, she's so so so incredibly young with Angel, it's kinda pedophile-ish. But, those of you who've known me for a while know that we spent like four months arguing about whether or not Angel is a pedophile (oh, memories), so I'll just say check out my thread if you're interested (Angel and Buffy: The Age Difference? - Buffy-Boards). Anyway, as for Spuffy... whenever I watch them I think how perfect they are for each other and how incredibly beautiful their relationship is. I even love their S6 relationship. Like, maybe I'm delirious, but perhaps the reason some Bangelers detest the S6 'ship is because how beautifully passionate, destructive, and fun/ painful it was, when Bangel has never had that level of feeling and raw emotion? Then again, many Bangelers hate violent relationships. So perhaps not. But anyway, Buffy was still pretty young when she was with Spike. Only 21. Her brain probably hadn't even stopped growing yet. While I do believe that Spike was an extremely important part of her life at the time, they've both grown and changed a lot, and I don't see the point of having her end up with someone she met so early in life. Many people don't meet their life long significant other until they're at least 30, if they even stay with one person at all. Buffy doesn't seem like the type to settle down with anyone. But, I envision Joss ending the series while Buffy's still in her 20's, probably going into an apocalyptic battle with the scoobies, no boyfriend, and no definite answer. The perfect, un-answered cliff- hanger. So, in the end, it probably won't even matter.

Which brings me to another question. What are we even debating? It's obvious that both couples loved each other dearly, so are we simply debating which 'ship had the greater love? I'm assuming so. Then again, it has practically been stated that both loves are equal. So either we're arguing because arguing is (mad) fun 😀, or we're debating a matter of opinion.

Oh, rhetorical questions, how I love you so... 😀

 

[GrrArghx]

Like, I really hate Bangel, it kinda grosses me out... Like, in Graduation Day pt 2 with the biting... Like, seriously, Bangel fans CANNOT say that they love that scene, and then say that they hate the Spuffy S6 relationship that "confused pain and love and sex and violence", because that scene was WAY darker than anything in S6. I mean, he was KILLING her, LITERALLY, and she was getting off on it! I dunno, it's probably just me being crazy, but I just can't watch that scene.

That's not really the same thing at all. Buffy and Spike were sleeping together for selfish reasons; Buffy made Angel drink from her so he'd live, which is pretty unselfish. Regardless, I don't see how it's gross or dark. That's pretty much the sexiest scene I've ever watched on television 😛 Yes, if you look at it literally, he was killing her but she forced him to do it so he'd live regardless of what happened to her. They were both fine afterwards anyway.

 

[Wishing Oceans]

That's not really the same thing at all. Buffy and Spike were sleeping together for selfish reasons; Buffy made Angel drink from her so he'd live, which is pretty unselfish. Regardless, I don't see how it's gross or dark. That's pretty much the sexiest scene I've ever watched on television 😛 Yes, if you look at it literally, he was killing her but she forced him to do it so he'd live regardless of what happened to her. They were both fine afterwards anyway.

I suppose it's all perspective. 🙂 I see it as kinda disturbing, but I'm sure many people disagree.

 

[GrrArghx]

I suppose it's all perspective. 🙂 I see it as kinda disturbing, but I'm sure many people disagree.

I can see why you would think it was though. If you look at it literally, he bit into her neck and drank her blood so that is pretty gross from a normal perspective 😛 But it's BtVS and we all know the Buffyverse is alot different from our world 😀

 

[Wishing Oceans]

BillyidolwannaB agrees: But Buffy wasn't 'with' Spike in the first place to leave him for Angel. Still, i get what you mean with the cordy comparison.

She was with him in every way except actually being labeled as "together". 🙂 Spike was the person in her life at the moment, as said by Joss.

 

[Imaginaryygirl]

Interesting point about Harry Potter. I honestly never compared Harry and Buffy together before, but I definitely will now. Although, while reading HP, I'd always thought Buffy should end up with Ginny, which, obviously,

Spoiler

he did.

It seemed like after

Spoiler

defeating Voldemort

he would be able to more or less "retire" and settle down with his love. 🙂 As the last words of the series went, "all was well". But still, I'll think about that. (By the way, are you a HP geek like I am? 😀 )

Well I suppose I like

Spoiler

Harry & Ginny

together, but I always just saw Harry as this total loner. Not like when it came to friends and stuff, just with romance. And now that you mentioned it, I'm kind of liking Buffy the loner. It's one way for both ships to calm down a bit. 😀 (and yesss, i'm totally a HP geek 🙂 )

Ahh, college. I can't wait 'til I'm old enough to go, it sounds so fun. But anyway, maybe you could rent them from the library. I used to do that all the time, before I became in love with Buffy/ Angel.

You know what's sad? I totally just forgot that libraries still exist. D: WOW. I buy all of my books so I guess thats why it didn't occur to me, but still...pretty sad. xD But yeahh, thats a good idea. Thank goodness for those library card keychains or else I'd never find that card. I'll stop Tuesday (since they're closed tomorrow) before class and keep you updated on my thoughts. Who knows? Maybe I'll even learn to appreciate, and perhaps even grow to like, Cangel.

Definitely. 😀 Season 3+4 will probably be a bit torturous to watch, but there are still some AMAZING scenes that I wouldn't have wanted to miss for the world. 🙂

Yeahh, my friend told me those seasons were pretty rough. She actually said she didn't even hold her interest for the rest of season 4. But I'll be positive. Maybe it won't be too terrible. xD

Oh my gosh, yes! That was one of the funniest scenes in existance. I love when Angel is like

Spoiler

"it's not about what I want!"

Unbelievably funny. 😀

I know, right?? I had that favorited on youtube and one day it was gone. My heart sank. Stupid youtube and their copyrights. >.< That was the reason my Bangel video was deleted. >.<

Yeah, some Bangelers kinda confuse me (no offense to all you Bangelers, of course.). Like, I visit other websites occasionally, and I look up 'shippers wars. And they say the most ridiculous things... But I digress. 😀 Friendship is a pretty touchy subject though. Like, I love Dangel, and that didn't exactly have friendship. But Cangel did, and I don't particuarly like that, although it had some adorable scenes that are literally impossible not to fall in love with. You'll see. But with Bangel, even Joss says it's "an eternal love". And if Joss believes it, then friendship or not, they'll probably get together again.

Wow, Joss said that? That actually surprises me. I always got "I don't particularly care for Bangel, I just do it for fan service" kind of vibe from him. Especially when he said Parker was the most important relationship of her life. As hard as I try, I can't understand why. But there is this new rumor, especially regarding the new major plot twist in the comic series that

Spoiler

Bangel are finally getting their happy ending, as vauge as that sounds.

I just blocked that off in case it's true, as far as I know it's just a rumor.

But I've recently (like, a couple minutes ago 😀 ) realized what their "everlasting love" is really like. Like, I find it similar to Riley's speech in As You Were. Riley said that Buffy was the first woman he ever loved, all the bad things she did didn't touch her, and he'd always kinda love her. But, at the same time, he loved his new life and he loved his new wife, and he wasn't going to get in another relationship with his past lover just because he would always slightly love her. It's the same with Bangel. They were each others first real loves, and they'll always love each other. But they DO have new lives and they DO have new partners who they love very much and are not going to leave for past lover. Like, Angel wasn't going to leave Cordy for Buffy if he could, and Buffy wasn't going to leave Spike for Angel if she could, if that makes sense.

Interesting! I did always like his speech, too, although I wasn't a fan of Riley at all. I can relate to it as I'm sure everyone can in some way. I, too, wouldn't leave a current boyfriend/husband for an ex. And I don't see either of those characters doing the same. I can accept that Buffy and Angel will always love one another. If they never actually get together in the end, I can deal. As long as the love is there, I'm good.

Exactly what I was thinking! I really hate it when people ruin a perfectly good friendship. It was like I was reading some awful fanfic. Funny story, I actually DID read a fanfic suspiciously similar to it. So when I found out it actually happened I was quite confused... Second thought really wasn't that funny. 😉

Oh goodness, me too! Buffy &

Spoiler

Xander

have such this great friendship. I always love how they kept it from going any farther than that. They just don't suit each other in that way.

Haha yeah... You know, I still can't believe you're a Bangeler. You're... different from them. (To quote from Hush 😀 ) In fact, you sound a lot like our Becky (Joan The Vampire Slayer). But I'm probably just imagining things.

Haha, I'm going to take that as a compliment. xD Different is good. I like to think I'm not as aggressive as some that I, myself, have come in contact with. I'm open to all interpretations and perceptions. 😀 Oh yeah, I've met Becky! She was the first to greet me on the boards. I'll take the fact that I sound like her as a compliment, too. 😀

Wow, that's ironic. When I wrote that I was positive that that was what you'd say in response. 🙂 And you can count on it, I can't wait. I'm discovering new things about Spuffy every day, and I've been watching Spuffy scenes since I was eight.

You were a super young Buffy fan, too? I started watching the show when I was 7, a few months after it started airing. I came in on season 2. Other kids our age had Nickelodeon, we had Buffy. I'd say we win. xD

I dunno, I have mixed feelings about it. I thought it felt slightly out of place, but you're probably right. I kinda reminds me of how in Angel S5

Spoiler

Lindsey was brought back after being gone since S2. He was there in the beginning, they needed to bring him back in the end. But I LOVE Lindsey, so my opinion's probably biased. 😀

It's always nice to see old characters from the beginning that have since left, come back. I mean, Angel was the only one in the series finale but I LOVED that scene in "Lessons" where all of the big bads from every season came back for 10 seconds of screen time. So. Excellent. And I don't know about you, but I was uber impressed that Mark Metcalf (The Master) and George Hertzberg (Adam) came back, got put under possibly 5+ hours of make-up for 10 seconds of screen time. If that's not dedication, I don't know what is. xD

Nah. don't worry m' dear. I criticise my 'ships all the time. Part of really loving and understanding a ship is to distinguish and accept that it has faults. No ship is perfect, and the person who really understands their ship is the person who knows the most and best arguments against it.

Like, I know TONS of awesome arguments against Spuffy that no one's ever used, and I always know how to rebut anything that I say in an argument/ debate. But, since I'm not about to let the other side win, I keep it to myself. 😀

Very true. No ship is perfect. I like what you said about part of loving a ship is accepting it's faults. I'm 100% with you on that.

Haha I wish I knew some never-been-used Bangel arguments, but I can pretty much guarantee that every single one of them has been used at some point.

As for 'ships in general: I'm in a pretty neutral place right now. Like, I really hate Bangel, it kinda grosses me out... Like, in Graduation Day pt 2 with the biting... Like, seriously, Bangel fans CANNOT say that they love that scene, and then say that they hate the Spuffy S6 relationship that "confused pain and love and sex and violence", because that scene was WAY darker than anything in S6. I mean, he was KILLING her, LITERALLY, and she was getting off on it! I dunno, it's probably just me being crazy, but I just can't watch that scene. 🙂 Plus, she's so so so incredibly young with Angel, it's kinda pedophile-ish. But, those of you who've known me for a while know that we spent like four months arguing about whether or not Angel is a pedophile (oh, memories), so I'll just say check out my thread if you're interested Anyway, as for Spuffy... whenever I watch them I think how perfect they are for each other and how incredibly beautiful their relationship is. I even love their S6 relationship. Like, maybe I'm delirious, but perhaps the reason some Bangelers detest the S6 'ship is because how beautifully passionate, destructive, and fun/ painful it was, when Bangel has never had that level of feeling and raw emotion? Then again, many Bangelers hate violent relationships. So perhaps not. But anyway, Buffy was still pretty young when she was with Spike. Only 21. Her brain probably hadn't even stopped growing yet. While I do believe that Spike was an extremely important part of her life at the time, they've both grown and changed a lot, and I don't see the point of having her end up with someone she met so early in life. Many people don't meet their life long significant other until they're at least 30, if they even stay with one person at all. Buffy doesn't seem like the type to settle down with anyone. But, I envision Joss ending the series while Buffy's still in her 20's, probably going into an apocalyptic battle with the scoobies, no boyfriend, and no definite answer. The perfect, un-answered cliff- hanger. So, in the end, it probably won't even matter.

That scene in GD pt. 2 was pretty dark yes, but...I liked it. Like not in a creepy "Oh! Biting!" way, but in a "Buffy is willing to potentially give her life for the man she loves" kind of way. But you're not crazy, you're not the only one with issues with that scene. Sometimes it's even hard for me to watch even though I know she lives through it, I still always have that thought like he's actually going to kill her this time watching it. xD

Oh, and I checked out your thread ("The Age Difference"). I know it's going to sound strange, but the age difference between Bangel has never bothered me. Angel was turned at the age of 26, so I've always really thought of it that way even though he's technically over 200 years old. Not saying 15 and 26 is such a great thing either. After thinking about it, it really should've bothered me. xD So I suppose he would be breaking the law anyway, like you mentioned in your thread. So Bangel was at one time legally unacceptable even if you took away the vampire years? Of course it was. xD

Which brings me to another question. What are we even debating? It's obvious that both couples loved each other dearly, so are we simply debating which 'ship had the greater love? I'm assuming so. Then again, it has practically been stated that both loves are equal. So either we're arguing because arguing is (mad) fun 😀, or we're debating a matter of opinion.

Oh, rhetorical questions, how I love you so...

hahaha, I dont' really think we're debating about anything anymore. I think we've changed into a POV discussion on things. Because you're right, it's obvious that both respective couples loved each other and that both, at least we've come to agree upon, are equal. I can deal with that. xD

 

[thevikingsgirl]

Maybe I'm the only Spuffster who thought the scene with Angel biting Buffy was sexy. I wish there'd been some biting mixed in with the Spuffy sex. Hello! This is vampires we're talking about. The only time they really made the blood taking sexy was in the Dracula episode. I wish they'd done that other times. It's part of the whole vampire mythos. Good stuff.

 

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

Which brings me to another question. What are we even debating? It's obvious that both couples loved each other dearly, so are we simply debating which 'ship had the greater love? I'm assuming so. Then again, it has practically been stated that both loves are equal. So either we're arguing because arguing is (mad) fun , or we're debating a matter of opinion.

Well, we have sort of went off-topic, but that's OK! We're having a good conversation!

We're supposed to be arguing about if Buffy and Spike were friends or lovers in S7. 😉

Wow, Joss said that? That actually surprises me. I always got "I don't particularly care for Bangel, I just do it for fan service" kind of vibe from him. Especially when he said Parker was the most important relationship of her life. As hard as I try, I can't understand why. But there is this new rumor, especially regarding the new major plot twist in the comic series that Spoiler - Highlight to view:Bangel are finally getting their happy ending, as vauge as that sounds.I just blocked that off in case it's true, as far as I know it's just a rumor.

I wouldn't say B/A are getting their happy ending. I think a lot will be revealed in the next couple issues, and I don't necessarily think the covers that were leaked are what they seem. I believe they're parodies. Many Bangels aren't happy about what's going down, actually. I'm not sure if you have been spoiled to who Twilight is. If you have, check out the threads devoted to this topic in the Season 8 forums. If you don't want to be spoiled, DON'T LOOK AT THEM!

Now, back on topic:
Buffy/Spike - friends or lovers?

There's been a lot said regarding how Joss felt about Spike, and how he felt about the B/S pairing and the B/A pairing. James said this regarding how Joss felt about Spike in general:

"Every character on the show was a version of Joss, but Joss didn't see Spike that way. Spike was the other guy. He was the guy who might mess up the show, actually, because vampires are supposed to be ugly and hated"¦ whenever Joss would write an episode, Spike would have, like, five lines. That's fine. I mean, the man gave me a job and he's a great guy and everything."

I think it's safe to say that the only reason Spike was kept on the show was as a result of the intense fan reaction to him. He was a favorite of the other writers.

Also, here's what Joss said regarding Spuffy:

He's [Spike] definitely, in many ways, her counterpart, and closer to her than a lot of the other characters. He goes to the dark side of what Buffy is. He goes to what Slayers are, and what it means to be something different in this world.

"And that really works, it works on a very different level. Their relationship has clearly been through a lot -- much more, in fact, than her relationship with Angel, in a way.

Somewhere along the line, I think Joss warmed up to Spuffy. Here's what he had to say regarding the two in Season 7:

To explore the idea of the Slayer fully and to see a very grown up and romantic and confusing relationship that isn't about power, but actually genuinely beautiful between two people in the form of Buffy and Spike.

He used the word "romantic" in relation to Spuffy. Period. I think it's pretty clear that Buffy and Spike were in love 🙂

And of course, my all-time favorite quote of his:

Buffy was in love with Spike the moment their hands clasped.

So, my point is, if you're taking Joss' word as final (which I do) Buffy and Spike were MUCH more than friends in S7. 🙂

Haha, I'm going to take that as a compliment. xD Different is good. I like to think I'm not as aggressive as some that I, myself, have come in contact with. I'm open to all interpretations and perceptions. Oh yeah, I've met Becky! She was the first to greet me on the boards. I'll take the fact that I sound like her as a compliment, too.

lol, you think I'm aggressive? I'll try to settle down. 😉
Hell yes I was the first to greet you! I love new people joining this board. And I'm so glad you're here! You have interesting opinions.

Maybe I'm the only Spuffster who thought the scene with Angel biting Buffy was sexy. I wish there'd been some biting mixed in with the Spuffy sex. Hello! This is vampires we're talking about. The only time they really made the blood taking sexy was in the Dracula episode. I wish they'd done that other times. It's part of the whole vampire mythos. Good stuff.

Nah, I'm a Spuffy, and even I can admit that was a damn good scene. It was beautifully filmed and very subtly erotic. Spuffy's scenes are always very blatant. Bangel's sex scenes were always about being "classy" - the scene in 'Innocence', 'I Will Remember You' , and the one in 'Graduation Day.'