Spuffy S7: Friends or Lovers?

[xaphania]

Thanks for posting those Joss comments. Alas, I doubt it means 'case closed' for some.

 

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

I think this an easy argument to make to try and justify why you don't think other people see things the same way as you. I don't see what I want to see, I see what I feel. This is one of the things is these shipper debates that really gets to me. In the same way you don't like the use of the words 'more' and 'better', Becky, I don't get on with people suggesting I'm lying because I feel differently about things.

Ok, fair enough. I didn't mean to call you a liar because you feel differently - I just believe that we are all guilty of "seeing" what we want in some way or another. This is not an insult at all. I see love with S/B and you don't. That's fine. My issue is with people saying that Buffy was lying to Spike.

I totally understand that you see what you feel. So do I. I feel that Buffy loved Spike. I felt she loved him far before she said it. The sadness with them I feel is that by the time she had enough guts to admit it to herself and to him, it was too late. Her mistake was waiting so long to say it, yes, but that doesn't mean she didn't mean it. I feel at that moment in the Hellmouth Buffy had a realization; she realized he was doing to die, and that she had never told him how she felt. She was terrified of him dying not knowing how she felt. So she told him, even if it wasn't at the best time. It felt contrived, I agree. But I blame that on the rushed and bad writing, not on Buffy. The writers wanted to get a lot of ground covered in this ep, and they sure did - but the end result is it's all quite rushed.

I understand that you feel her I Love You lacked conviction - I used to believe that Buffy didn't love Spike either, just as you do. Sure, the writers could have had her say it at a more "convenient" time, such as like you said, in 'Touched', but oh well. This is what we got. 'Chosen' was rushed, everything about it was rushed - Buffy's declaration of love for Spike was no exception to this rule.

I think after the events of the last few episodes of season seven Buffy was aware that she did have the capacity to love Spike romantically, but I don't think she was there yet. IF she had chosen to say those three little words the night BEFORE Chosen, which I was actually waiting for, then I think it's safe to say I'd feel differently about it. But the fact she waited until he was dying to say them had absolutely no conviction for me. For me, that was as much as fan service to Spuffy fans as Angel's return in the last episode was to Bangels.

Interesting. I didn't know you felt this way.

Question; do you think if Spike hadn't died, that in time they would have developed a romantic relationship as you define it?

Buffy's actions speak louder then her words. She treated him with love all throughout the season. I don't feel she had to say it, it was obvious to me, I "saw" it. As always though, this is just my personal opinion.



So, she wouldn't lie about it? No. But she would passionately kiss another man whilst apparently being so in love with someone else? Which for me, does verge on lying and being dishonest. I don't really have much of a problem with disrespecting Buffy's character so it doesn't really make me want to change my mind by suggesting that is what I'm doing. If she was so deeply in love with Spike, the thought of kissing another man would be unthinkable. You don't kiss other people that passionately when you are in love with someone else. And if you do, then those feelings aren't quite so strong as you think they are. To some extent, I do believe as she said, Spike is in her heart, but while she still has such a huge want and desire to kiss Angel, then she is just not madly in love with Spike.

Their friendship in season seven was beautiful, and whilst I think they both had it within themselves to be something more, they were not ready for it yet and Buffy was certainly not in a position to give herself completely to Spike, which is what being in love with someone is all about. She didn't hesitate to remind Angel how she feels about him and for me it just doesn't give enough credibility to her 'I love you' to Spike at the end.

That's my two cents, and it's all you're getting. I need to start saving 😉[/QUOTE]

 

[white avenger]

I don't know why it is so hard foe some people to accept the fact that, by the end of Season 7, Buffy was, indeed, in love with Spike. She just had the bad timong to realize it when the prospect of losing him became, not a mere possibility, abt an almost certainty. Sure, it would have been much more convenient if she had come to that realization the night before, so that she could have spent the night convincing him of the fact, but that simply was not to be. Call it fate, call it karma, call it whatever you care to, but is a fact.

As for Angel's guest shot there at the end, it served to thrill the Bangels and illustrate that Buffy was still in love with Angel. Big deal. We've known that since the middle of Season 1, and I don't think that there's a single Spuffy shipper here, if they're honest about it, who isn't willing to admit that. It was planned that way, it was written that way, and it was acted that way by both Sarah and David. Buffy Summers was in love with Angel, former Angelus, former Liam Hanrahan (don't ask how I found out his real last name. Accept it or not. But to me and someone else, that IS his last name). It was so obvious that even the most rabid Spuffy would have a very hard time denying it.

HOWEVER...

Buffy was, by the end of Season 7, ready to finally recognise and admit admit what she had actually been feeling since probably "Showtime" or earlier. She was definitely in love with Spike. She was in love with Spike AND Angel, each differently, but each definitely and as equally as would be humanly possible. I'm sure that there are some people here who would, and probably will, scoff at that statement, but it is, nonetheless, true. It is possible, and not even that difficult, to be in love with more than one person simultaneously, and to be perfectly happy with either one.

 

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

So, she wouldn't lie about it? No. But she would passionately kiss another man whilst apparently being so in love with someone else? Which for me, does verge on lying and being dishonest. I don't really have much of a problem with disrespecting Buffy's character so it doesn't really make me want to change my mind by suggesting that is what I'm doing. If she was so deeply in love with Spike, the thought of kissing another man would be unthinkable. You don't kiss other people that passionately when you are in love with someone else. And if you do, then those feelings aren't quite so strong as you think they are. To some extent, I do believe as she said, Spike is in her heart, but while she still has such a huge want and desire to kiss Angel, then she is just not madly in love with Spike.

This is your opinion. Perhaps Buffy is in love with both as WA says above. I've heard this argument, and don't necessarily agree, but there is evidence to support it.

So you think that Buffy wouldn't passionately kiss anyone while being in love with someone else? I'm not sure I understand how you can believe this. Don't you Bangels believe that Buffy has always been in love with Angel? That they're soul-mates and what not? That she is the only women he's ever loved? Then how do you reconcile how passionately she kissed Spike, slept with him on numerous occasions, and allowed him to completely take her over while she was still in love with Angel?

By your definition, Buffy must have no longer been in love with Angel by Season 6 - considering her passionate relationship with Spike. Even with Riley, "the rebound guy", she sure enjoyed passionately kissing him, among other things. I'm not trying to be nit picky, I'm just pointing out that your logic here is faulty, my friend.

Their friendship in season seven was beautiful, and whilst I think they both had it within themselves to be something more, they were not ready for it yet and Buffy was certainly not in a position to give herself completely to Spike, which is what being in love with someone is all about. She didn't hesitate to remind Angel how she feels about him and for me it just doesn't give enough credibility to her 'I love you' to Spike at the end.

Again, this is your opinion, that love is about giving yourself wholely to someone. Not everyone believes this.

 

[Kean]

I've just got home from a really long day of college so I haven't read the entire thread yet but since we are quoting Joss I thought I'd throw this in,

"It was important for David to come and do [the Buffy finale], which is really sweet considering he's all over the end of Angel at the same time. It means a lot to me and Sarah and David and the writing staff as storytellers, because Angel was there from the beginning and because their relationship transcends everything. "- About the Finale of BtVs

Her loving Spike in that scene doesn't really bother me at all. That is but a moment, Angel is the forever guy.

 

[Flannen]

This is your opinion. Perhaps Buffy is in love with both as WA says above. I've heard this argument, and don't necessarily agree, but there is evidence to support it.

So you think that Buffy wouldn't passionately kiss anyone while being in love with someone else? I'm not sure I understand how you can believe this. Don't you Bangels believe that Buffy has always been in love with Angel? That they're soul-mates and what not? That she is the only women he's ever loved? Then how do you reconcile how passionately she kissed Spike, slept with him on numerous occasions, and allowed him to completely take her over while she was still in love with Angel?

By your definition, Buffy must have no longer been in love with Angel by Season 6 - considering her passionate relationship with Spike. Even with Riley, "the rebound guy", she sure enjoyed passionately kissing him, among other things. I'm not trying to be nit picky, I'm just pointing out that your logic here is faulty, my friend.

My logic isn't faulty. What is faulty, however, is the assumption that because I'm a Bangel, this is what I must believe, when the fact remains I have never said that Buffy was as wholeheartedly in love with Angel after he left, as she was when she was with him. I think it would be rather pathetic and unnatural for her to have done so.

After Angel left, I stand by the fact that she still loved him but wasn't necessarily completely head over heels in love with him. If she was, then I would agree that she shouldn't have been kissing Parker, Riley or Spike in the way she did and that my logic would be flawed. What I do think is that the love she has always had for Angel is strong enough to suggest to me that ultimately, he is the person she wants to spend her life with. That doesn't mean she isn't allowed, nor shouldn't, experience love with anyone else, like I said, I would think she was pretty pathetic if she'd spent all that time pining over him. The fact that despite all of those relationships, Angel is still such a huge part of her is really significant for me. But to get back to the point, if she was at that moment so utterly in love with Spike, then kissing another person, Angel or not, just doesn't add up for me.

Again, this is your opinion, that love is about giving yourself wholely to someone. Not everyone believes this.

Of course it's just my opinion, (as is the fact you shouldn't be kissing someone who isn't the person you're meant to be so clearly in love with) rooted in my own experiences of love, but it is the reason why I don't believe her when she said 'I love you' and it's always going to be simple as that for me, I'm afraid.

 

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

I've just got home from a really long day of college so I haven't read the entire thread yet but since we are quoting Joss I thought I'd throw this in,

"It was important for David to come and do [the Buffy finale], which is really sweet considering he's all over the end of Angel at the same time. It means a lot to me and Sarah and David and the writing staff as storytellers, because Angel was there from the beginning and because their relationship transcends everything. "- About the Finale of BtVs

Her loving Spike in that scene doesn't really bother me at all. That is but a moment, Angel is the forever guy.

*sighs*

Here's my "rebuttal" for that quote:

Joss, regarding S/B:

"And that really works, it works on a very different level. Their relationship has clearly been through a lot -- much more, in fact, than her relationship with Angel, in a way."

---------- Post added at 01:56 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:46 PM ----------

My logic isn't faulty. What is faulty, however, is the assumption that because I'm a Bangel, this is what I must believe, when the fact remains I have never said that Buffy was as wholeheartedly in love with Angel after he left, as she was when she was with him. I think it would be rather pathetic and unnatural for her to have done so.

Alright, if that's the case, then I apologize. From what I've heard from many Bangels, this is the common belief - that Buffy will always/has always loved Angel, and that is why all of her other relationships have failed in part. The belief that she would go back with him anytime if the opportunity was presented and the situation allowed for it.

Forgive me, I shouldn't have assumed anything, you're right.

After Angel left, I stand by the fact that she still loved him but wasn't necessarily completely head over heels in love with him. If she was, then I would agree that she shouldn't have been kissing Parker, Riley or Spike in the way she did and that my logic would be flawed.

Yes, again, I'm sorry. My comment about your faulty logic was based on the assumption you believe she has/is/always will be in love with him.

What I do think is that the love she has always had for Angel is strong enough to suggest to me that ultimately, he is the person she wants to spend her life with. That doesn't mean she isn't allowed, nor shouldn't, experience love with anyone else, like I said, I would think she was pretty pathetic if she'd spent all that time pining over him. The fact that despite all of those relationships, Angel is still such a huge part of her is really significant for me. But to get back to the point, if she was at that moment so utterly in love with Spike, then kissing another person, Angel or not, just doesn't add up for me.

I respect that. I can see where you're coming from.

Well, I absolutely agree she'll always have feelings for Angel - like many of us do for our first loves - but I don't agree that is who she plan on/wants to spend her life with. I will always see Angel and her as the past. The fact that they are still important to each other proves nothing to me, it certainly doesn't suggest that they're still in love.

Of course it's just my opinion, (as is the fact you shouldn't be kissing someone who isn't the person you're meant to be so clearly in love with) rooted in my own experiences of love, but it is the reason why I don't believe her when she said 'I love you' and it's always going to be simple as that for me, I'm afraid.

Regardless, if looks as though the person in "her heart" right now is not Angel or Spike - but

Spoiler

Xander. She's in love with him now, or at least she thinks she is.

Perhaps we should start arguing who she loves more - Angel, Spike OR

Spoiler

Xander.

😉

(Just kidding. Sort of.)

 

[GrrArghx]

I appreciate your honesty here, yet this is where I have a really hard time understanding you guys - and believe me, I've heard this before on several occasions. How can you honestly say that you didn't "see" how Buffy felt about Spike? The ways he treated him clearly illustrates how much she loved him.

*sigh*

I just don't get it.

I understand that, but I think this is the line between us that makes you a Spuffy and me not a Spuffy. lol Just like most non Bangels think Buffy & Angel have moved on from one another, I don't see it that way. Everyone is different and we each have our personal opinions on things which I'm sure alters our perceptions on how we view the 'ships.

& again, some of you are saying that whoever doesn't see that Buffy loved Spike isn't 'accepting' it and that isn't the case. It's not a matter of accepting it.

I'll take Angel & Cordelia for example: It's obvious he was in love with her, and I have to accept it whether I like it or not. But for Buffy being in love with Spike; it wasn't obvious to me.

I don't deny that she cared for Spike deeply and that they had a special bond - they have been through alot, but I just don't think she was in love with him.

 

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

"It was important for David to come and do [the Buffy finale], which is really sweet considering he's all over the end of Angel at the same time. It means a lot to me and Sarah and David and the writing staff as storytellers, because Angel was there from the beginning and because their relationship transcends everything. "- About the Finale of BtVs

Also, with this quote, Joss is in no way saying that the two are "in love."

He says B/A have a "relationship", which they undoubtedly do and always will but he is not necessarily implying that the relationship is a loving one. He could simply be referring to their bond, all they've been through together, their friendship, and their history.

Kean, perhaps your "interpretation" of this quote is an example of seeing what you want to see?

 

[Flannen]

I hope I didn't come off as being really peeved in that last post because I didn't mean too! You know how I am, I don't like being lumped in with the crowd! 😉

At the end of the day, as long as we can make time to respect each other's opinions, it's all that matters.

I guess I just have a soft spot for first loves, or don't necessarily assume that a first love isn't your 'only' love - in the sense of being the one you end up with. My other favourite ship ever is Lucas and Peyton from One Tree Hill and they are the epitome of that so if you ever get round to watching that, you'll probably understand me a lot more! lol

But that's enough of being off-topic! I guess another reason why I feel so strongly that they are only friends at this point in the show because I honestly think it is beautiful and touching and I just wish that sometimes a show could just explore that for a while, y'know? Explore it for what it is in itself instead of it having to be just a part of something else.

 

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

I hope I didn't come off as being really peeved in that last post because I didn't mean too! You know how I am, I don't like being lumped in with the crowd! 😉

At the end of the day, as long as we can make time to respect each other's opinions, it's all that matters.

Seriously, amen! I do respect all of you, I just don't understand you, lol.

My other favourite ship ever is Lucas and Peyton from One Tree Hill and they are the epitome of that so if you ever get round to watching that, you'll probably understand me a lot more! lol

It's in my Netflix queue. 🙂

But that's enough of being off-topic! I guess another reason why I feel so strongly that they are only friends at this point in the show because I honestly think it is beautiful and touching and I just wish that sometimes a show could just explore that for a while, y'know? Explore it for what it is in itself instead of it having to be just a part of something else.

I agree with this on some level. Yet for me, Spuffy is true love, so of course I didn't want them to remain friends.

Yet, I think I feel the same way about

Spoiler

Buffy and Xander

as you do about Buffy and Spike.

Spoiler

Xander and Buff's

friendship has always been one of my favorite elements of the show. You could say they're my Friendship 'Ship. 😉 So, her new "feelings" for him have left me peeved to say the least.

 

[white avenger]

Man, this is getting to be a bigger dance than my high school prom, and I didn't even buy anybody a corsage. On top of that, I have to go and teach a TKD class for the rest of the evening. SHUCKS!

 

[thevikingsgirl]

Totally off the original topic but after reading these spoilers I am so not EVER going to read the comics. Yuck!

I have fun debating this subject, regardless of the fact that no one is ever going to change his or her mind. For me personally though, I'm not invested in any future stuff. I love Spike for himself, not just the whole Spuffy ship element. I know a lot of people probably feel that way. I believe Buffy loved him, but I totally loved season 5 of Angel just for having him around. If Joss said tomorrow, "Forget all that other stuff I said; Buffy didn't really love Spike," I wouldn't care very much. *I* love Spike and that's all that matters to me 😉

 

[Kean]

Also, with this quote, Joss is in no way saying that the two are "in love."

He says B/A have a "relationship", which they undoubtedly do and always will but he is not necessarily implying that the relationship is a loving one. He could simply be referring to their bond, all they've been through together, their friendship, and their history.

Kean, perhaps your "interpretation" of this quote is an example of seeing what you want to see?

Honestly, I think I am seeing what actaully is there.

This is the shooting script from Chosen, it was cut due to lenght.

BUFFY
Angel. I do. Sometimes... think
that far ahead.
He stops, smiles a bit.


BUFFY (cont'd)
We both have our lives, but...
sometimes...
ANGEL
Sometimes is something.

BUFFY
It'd be a long time coming. Years,
if ever.

He walks backwards into the dark, smiling at her.


ANGEL
I ain't gettin' any older.
He disappears into shadow. She watches him go.

http://www.buffyworld.com/buffy/scripts/144_scri.html

Here is Buffy clearly telling Angel that she thinks about a future with him, specifically. Previous to that she kissed him, ALOT, and topped that off with some Angel baskage. That's not how I say hello to old friends, not even old boyfriends, least of all someone that I no longer view in a romantic way. So I don't believe there is any other way to interpret that quote than being about Buffy and Ange's romantic relationship.

I would even counter your argument and say that you are ignoring what is said in that quote and focusing on what isn't said to fit what you want to see.

 

[thevikingsgirl]

Joan the Vampire Slayer agrees: I'm sorry for giving you a spoiler...

I read them on purpose. I'm glad too! Some of the things I've read about the comics have made me really want to not ruin the story in my head by reading them, though I'm not sure I'll be able to resist in the long term.

 

[white avenger]

Honestly, I think I am seeing what actaully is there.

This is the shooting script from Chosen, it was cut due to lenght.



.

I have no objection to what went on in that scene, and I can accept the fact that when Buffy envisioned a future, she saw Angel in it. And I'm not even gonna use the "she loves him as her best friend" crutch. I've already said that I do believe that Buffy was in love with Angel. Where we disagree is in the fact that I believe that she was also in love with Spike. I do object, however, to using dialog taken from a shooting script that was never aired. It's one thing to quote Joss or anyone else connected with the shows as to what they have said in formal interviews, but if we're not going to quote what Joss said off record to some fan somewhere or over thanksgiving dinner with his friends, I think that we should stick to what actually appeared on screen or was included in the disc sets.

 

[ubi4soft]

Here is Buffy clearly telling Angel that she thinks about a future with him, specifically.

Ah, the forever transcended to if ever. The whole cookie dough speech (btw didn't Angel eat some with ice cream and regurgitated in IWRY? ) She clearly tells Angel that she's not ready to decide on anything. What she reveals is that she sees herself becoming a finished product to present to the person of her choice if ever.

 

[sosa lola]

IMO, the best part about S7 was the Spuffy story. They appeared more as friends than lovers, and that's the beauty of their relationship. They can be friends. They had a great connection, had each other's backs, and believed in each other. We've seen Spike at his lowest point, and Buffy was there for him. We've seen Buffy at her lowest point, and Spike was there for her. IMO, them being friends doesn't they're not in love with each other, things are just too complicated for them to start a relationship, they're not there yet, but if there was another season, I can see them making a step forward towards a relationship. As I said, they're obviously in love with each other, I mean, you can't watch that scene in Showtime when Buffy saves Spike and not see the love in her eyes. She was in love with him, she was just too late when she admitted her feelings -she always is sadly.

 

[Wishing Oceans]

OK, guys, this is starting to just be plain annoying. 😀

Point I am trying to prove: Buffy and Spike were in love in S7.

Joss Quotes:

"in time what went on with Spike and Buffy was very textured and complicated." The relationship, as it evolved in season seven, "has a romantic/sexual angle but not a physical one."

Spike is the person in her life right now..... What I basically told [James and Sarah] was, 'Play the romance, be proud of him, love him when you say you love him, love her when you say she doesn't love you. Forget about the crumbling world, for that period of time it doesn't exist.'

To explore the idea of the Slayer fully and to see a very grown up and romantic and confusing relationship that isn't about power, but actually genuinely beautiful between two people in the form of Buffy and Spike.

Joss said that Buffy loved Spike. Joss said that their relationship was "romantic". Joss said that their relationship was beautiful and grown up.

You guys can say you "don't see it" all you want, but it doesn't change the facts. I don't see the love in Bangel, but I still have to admit it existed. 🙂

So, why DO you guys always insist they were just friends in S7? Maybe because you don't consider people in love unless they're actually dating. True, Buffy and Spike weren't dating or sexing it up, but they were physical with each other. Also, "dating" is just a label. Anya and Xander, who broke up a week after Spike and Buffy did, were CLEARLY in love in S7, even though they weren't actually "dating". Amusing enough, they also got phyiscal with each other the same time Buffy and Spike did. 😀

So, end of discussion... Or not. 😀

 

[thevikingsgirl]

I figure when a writer/creator says something of his/her own creation, it's the truth, whether I like it or not. I guess that could be the root of part of the disagreement, if someone thinks what they feel about a work of fiction can be more "real" than what the writer of said work intended.