Spuffy S7: Friends or Lovers?

[Wishing Oceans]

Flannen agrees: For some of us, including me, what Joss says makes no difference so it doesn't make me think I should change my mind. Some people just see things differently, it doesn't mean they're wrong!

IMO, that's just twisting facts to one's own liking. 😀 What Joss says is canon, what canon says is true, so Buffy loved Spike. You may not see it, but it's still there. 🙂

 

[Flannen]

IMO, that's just twisting facts to one's own liking. 😀 What Joss says is canon, what canon says is true, so Buffy loved Spike. You may not see it, but it's still there. 🙂

Nope, it's not twisting anything. I'm a English Literature student and it's been my life for the last three years, and will be my job shortly when I'm teaching the subject, to interpret texts in any way I wish. There's a theory called the 'Death of the Author' which refers to the fact that any writer of any text has absolutely no say over what they have written once its been published or released into the world because once they're dead they can never say anything about it again. Yet people will still continue to 'read' they're work and see whatever they like in it and take whatever they want from it.

Joss could scream that Buffy loves Spike at me until he is blue in the face and it still wouldn't make the slightest bit of difference. Just like, if Joss was telling you that she didn't, never did and never would love Spike, you'd still 'see' it and believe it and THAT is the beauty of interpretation and that means you can't ever tell anyone they're wrong for what they think.

I don't take what Joss says about either or any ship because he says just as much about each one in order to give the fans something they want.

 

[white avenger]

You guys can say you "don't see it" all you want, but it doesn't change the facts. I don't see the love in Bangel, but I still have to admit it existed. 🙂

So, why DO you guys always insist they were just friends in S7? Maybe because you don't consider people in love unless they're actually dating. True, Buffy and Spike weren't dating or sexing it up, but they were physical with each other. Also, "dating" is just a label. Anya and Xander, who broke up a week after Spike and Buffy did, were CLEARLY in love in S7, even though they weren't actually "dating". Amusing enough, they also got phyiscal with each other the same time Buffy and Spike did. 😀

So, end of discussion... Or not. 😀

They don't see it because they're Bangels. There doesn't have to be any reason other than that. They loyally, adamently, support their ship, because they believe that Buffy and Angel do, in fact, belong together at the end of the story. They're hard headed that way.

Just like we Spuffies are. As you say, we for the most part see Buffy's relationship with Angel as an adolescent girl's crush, something that, by Season 7, she has, for the most part, outgrown and moved on from. Buffy sending Angel away on a lame "second front." errand after their kissing, we see as Buffy finally realizing that the Bangel fire had turned to ashes over the years.

Buffy, Spike, Angel, and the others have, to most of us, grown beyond the status of mere fictional characters. They are alive to us, capable of making their own decisions, independently of any master scheme of Joss Whedon's. They have come to the point that, regardless of what Joss, or Sarah, or David, or James, or the guy who delivered the pizza last night says, they make their own decisions. And since they live in our hearts, they make the decisions that our hearts believe that they should make. Buffy ultimately loves only Spike. Or Angel. Or Faith. Or Xander. Or Riley. She loves that person because WE love her WITH that person, to the point that, because some artist draws a picture to go on the front of a comic book, some of us are actually on the verge of no longer following the adventures of Buffy and her merry band.

That's why the Bangels see Spike's relationship with Buffy in Season 7 as nothing more than an intensely close friendship. That's why the Spuffies can't understand how even a blind person could miss the absolute, unconditional love that developed between the Slayer and "her" vampire.

And that's why the Fuffies are standing off to the side, laughing their a**es off at the antics of a bunch of people who have missed the fire and passion generated by the Chosen Two since the evening that they first met.

 

[Wishing Oceans]

They don't see it because they're Bangels. There doesn't have to be any reason other than that. They loyally, adamently, support their ship, because they believe that Buffy and Angel do, in fact, belong together at the end of the story. They're hard headed that way.

Just like we Spuffies are. As you say, we for the most part see Buffy's relationship with Angel as an adolescent girl's crush, something that, by Season 7, she has, for the most part, outgrown and moved on from. Buffy sending Angel away on a lame "second front." errand after their kissing, we see as Buffy finally realizing that the Bangel fire had turned to ashes over the years.

Buffy, Spike, Angel, and the others have, to most of us, grown beyond the status of mere fictional characters. They are alive to us, capable of making their own decisions, independently of any master scheme of Joss Whedon's. They have come to the point that, regardless of what Joss, or Sarah, or David, or James, or the guy who delivered the pizza last night says, they make their own decisions. And since they live in our hearts, they make the decisions that our hearts believe that they should make. Buffy ultimately loves only Spike. Or Angel. Or Faith. Or Xander. Or Riley. She loves that person because WE love her WITH that person, to the point that, because some artist draws a picture to go on the front of a comic book, some of us are actually on the verge of no longer following the adventures of Buffy and her merry band.

That's why the Bangels see Spike's relationship with Buffy in Season 7 as nothing more than an intensely close friendship. That's why the Spuffies can't understand how even a blind person could miss the absolute, unconditional love that developed between the Slayer and "her" vampire.

And that's why the Fuffies are standing off to the side, laughing their a**es off at the antics of a bunch of people who have missed the fire and passion generated by the Chosen Two since the evening that they first met.

Actually, like thevikingsgirl said, if Joss said Buffy never did and never will love Spike then I'd get over it, and I'd accept it. Besides, it's not like I don't have other 'ships I like. I'm also rooting for Spike and Angel, Spike and Illyria, and Spike and Darla/ Cordelia/ Dru/ Fred/ Willow... Buffy can be alone. 😀 But yeah, I always believe what Joss says, it's HIS show after all, not ours. 🙂

Who says what YOU believe is right is the only possibility? I'm gona quote Joss here, "The truth? there is no truth. There's just what you believe."

It's not just what I personally believe, it's what the creator, writer, and director of the show believes and has marked as canon.

 

[sk]

Okay, Spuffy S7, Friends or Lovers?

Thought that I would add how I look at it. This is from someone that really doesn't care about these 'ship thingys.

My overall feeling of their relationship in season 7 is that Buffy cared / worried about him at first but I seriously can't see any love there.
Later it become more like a true friendship she trusted him etc, can still not see any real love though.

Not until the very end of the season something starts to happend. I can actually see something there in the last few episodes.

So for me Spuffy is more something that could have been than something real. It just didn't come far enough for that before the end.

This is just how I saw it while watching the show.
You could obviously argue for other views by pointing at different moments here and there and it might not even be what the writers intended.
But none of that will change my overall feeling of the season, it is what it is. 🙂

/SK

 

[Flannen]

InsaneMystic agrees: yay, there goes the "Bangel transcends anything" argument! we only have Word Of Joss for that one, too, right? (sw)

Yes, obviously! 😛 What kind of raving hypocrite would I be if I argued that still stood? lol

And I'm not saying that no one else is allowed to accept what Joss says, it's just I never have and never will so they don't work in arguments against me! 😛 😉

 

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

thevikingsgirl agrees: Good stuff. But I must lack imagination b/c if Joss said Buffy truly did not love Spike, I'd believe him. To refuse to believe would feel delusional to me.

This is how I choose to interpret the show as well, with Joss' word (or other writers) as being final say. Why? Frankly, it makes it easier and I'm a conservative when it comes to literature/critical analysis of texts. Barthe's theory is too radical for me at this juncture....

Flannen's decision to follow the theory behind Barthe's essay "Death of an Author" is just as valid. It's not delusional, abd saying she is pretty rude, imo. It's merely a choice to not take the author's word as final say. Rather, the idea is that once a work is put out there in the public sphere the reader can choose to interpret it as he/she wishes.

For me personally, I feel it's disrespectful to dismiss what Joss has said about his own work and characters. So I choose to take his word as "final say." Joss said Buffy loved Spike, so I believe she did.

 

[thevikingsgirl]

My husband agrees with my take on Angel & Buffy (sappy & more infatuation than love), but I asked him if he thought Buffy loved Spike at the end and he said no, not in a romantic way. He thinks she loved him in a best friend way, and maybe it could have been more if we got another season. I guess I won't divorce him but we may need counseling now.

 

[Wishing Oceans]

Yeah, like I honestly don't understand how some people either don't like Spuffy or insist their love was merely friendship. It's crazy! 😀 It's like saying that Twillow was merely friendship.

I feel as though a lot of people who are bangelers simply don't believe that Buffy would ever love someone as much as she loved Angel. A lot of them are the dreamers, the one's who love Disney movies, first loves, and happily ever afters. Whereas the spuffiers are the more realistic, down- to- earth type people, who love many 'ships besides Spuffy, like Spaith or Spred or Fuffy or Spangel or something. Or, if you're me, ALL of them. 😀 Whereas many bangelers hate any 'ship that has one of the characters in a different relationship, like Cangel/ Dangel/ Spangel. But anyway.

Like, saying that Buffy and Spike didn't have a romantic love in S7 is like saying that Willow and Tara didn't love each other because Willow loved Oz first, or that Anya and Xander didn't love each other because Xander loved Cordy first, etc.

Nope, it's not twisting anything. I'm a English Literature student and it's been my life for the last three years, and will be my job shortly when I'm teaching the subject, to interpret texts in any way I wish. There's a theory called the 'Death of the Author' which refers to the fact that any writer of any text has absolutely no say over what they have written once its been published or released into the world because once they're dead they can never say anything about it again. Yet people will still continue to 'read' they're work and see whatever they like in it and take whatever they want from it.

Joss could scream that Buffy loves Spike at me until he is blue in the face and it still wouldn't make the slightest bit of difference. Just like, if Joss was telling you that she didn't, never did and never would love Spike, you'd still 'see' it and believe it and THAT is the beauty of interpretation and that means you can't ever tell anyone they're wrong for what they think.

I don't take what Joss says about either or any ship because he says just as much about each one in order to give the fans something they want.

Of course I'd believe it, Joss is God. 😀 It's an interesting theory, but I'm more into believing and taking into account what the author thought. Without that, it doesn't feel like the authors story at all to me, more like a propaganda or fanfiction. Like, the creator has something in mind when they're creating something, so whatever they say, IMO, is obviously the message they want us to understand.

Something I find odd is that every Spuffy I've ever known has admitted, if rather reluctantly, that Buffy and Angel WERE in romantic love, but basically every Bangel likes to say it's all some government conspiracy. 😀 Someone (who I can't remember) said it's because everything in Bangel was more dramatic and defined, whereas in Spuffy you have to look deeper. But I really don't get how you could NOT like and understand Spuffy. When you look at their journey and their development and love and passion that they went through from S2- S7 in comparison to the monotone Bangel relationship that always stayed the same and ended as quick as it began, there's a clear winner in my book. Like, it just seems like wistful thinking to ignore all the hints that were dropped in S7. 😀

Back to the spuffiers/ bangelers thing. I think that Angel was a very important and loved person to Buffy, at that time in her life . Which is why I don't go around insisting that their love was all a LIE. 😀 I really don't think that Spike would've been good with Buffy when Buffy was still the immature ditz that she was back when she was with Angel. But she changed, matured, and grew up into a beautiful woman, like Cordy did. 🙂 And Spike was a big part of that, and a very important part of her life at the time. BOTH men were important to her at different times, and it's ludicrous (IMO) to pretend otherwise. I wouldn't want S1-4 Buffy with Spike, and I wouldn't want S5-7 Buffy with Angel. It all works out. 😀

What's REALLY funny, as off- topic as it is, is Buffy/ Spike/ Angel threesome fics. 😀 Kinda weird, but still funny. 😉

Here are some beautiful quotes on Spuffy:

SMG:

The thing about Buffy and Spike is they understand each other on a level that nobody else does. They've both lived a hundred lives and I think there's a connection there that we will see evolve over the next couple of years where she realizes that he really is someone that she can trust, someone that's a companion to her and someone that really understands her unlike anybody else.

Joss:

I wanted to get a couple of shots -- we were going fast -- and that one I didn't know if I was gonna use, the two of them. And to me, it's almost the most important shot in the show, because it really shows the mystery of their relationship.
-- DVD commentary, "Chosen"

We had a few things in mind with season seven. One, everybody was tired of being depressed including us. Two, this was the last season. Three, lets get back to where we started. Let's go back to the beginning. Not the word, not the bang the real beginning. And the real beginning was girl power. The real beginning is what does it mean to be a slayer? And, not to feel guilty about the power, but having seen the dark side of it, and finding the light again. To explore the idea of the Slayer fully and to see a very grown up and romantic and confusing relationship that isn't about power, but actually genuinely beautiful between two people in the form of Buffy and Spike.

"...what we did want to say was that we could come back to a place of trust between these people. That man could redeem himself." Whedon said he thought that was "the best possible message to get out there." Whedon stated that "in time what went on with Spike and Buffy was very textured and complicated." The relationship, as it evolved in season seven, "has a romantic/sexual angle but not a physical one."
-- FilmForce

Spike is the person in her life right now.
-- "Chosen" Commentary

The great Marsters with a chemistry with Buffy that is just completely different from Angel's - different than David's - and yet works very very well. He's more on Buffy's level. Their vulnerabilities come out, and I don't just mean as characters, but as actors around each other. And that really works, it works on a very different level. Their relationship has clearly been through a lot - much more, in fact, than her relationship with Angel, in a way. You feel that history between these two, and they bring it to the set every time they came to work and that's why we still come to work.
-- "Chosen" Commentary

What I basically told [James and Sarah] was, "Play the romance, be proud of him, love him when you say you love him, love her when you say she doesn't love you. Forget about the crumbling world, for that period of time it doesn't exist."
-- "Chosen" Commentary

I had a lot of structural juggling to do to figure out how to make sense of the two most important men in Buffy's life showing up at once.

Buffy was in love with Spike the moment their hands clasped.
-- San Diego Convention

Marti Noxon:

The thing I keep saying is that it's not black and white. I'd love it to be, but it's not. To me, this is much more real. If these two crazy kids can make it work, it will be a lot more interesting than a kind of perfect romance with obstacles thrown in. To me, this is real life; this is people making their own problems. If they can get it together, that would be amazing. But it was never going to be easy. That's why Spike did something radical at the end of the year. Joss came up with the idea of the house coming down around them while they made love. It was perfect, because we needed something catastrophic to go along with this huge dangerous union.

~

I think when we saw him die at the end of the series, he was transcending, y'know, he had really given in to the best part of himself, and that was because he really loved her.

~

I've always joked around that he became attracted to Buffy because she could hit him the hardest, that he liked to be abused. Then we discovered that there was a real heart to that story-line, and they had a real chemistry together.

~

Afterlife: We thought it was interesting that Spike would be the one she could tell teh truth to . What we were suggesting there was that she knows how much it would everyone else and she doesn't know how much he cares and how much it will effect him that she's in so much pain. In way he's like a neutral party. He won't judge iot, he'll just listen.

~

I think Spike/Buffy relationship has definitly been challenging to write. Some moments of that have been very dark and sexy and felt quite real in peticular the aftermath of their first sexual encounter. I had a good time with that one.

~

I do think Buffy and Spike have feelings for eachother but they are trying to hide from all of that- Marti Noxon 9-02

David Fury:

He's definitely, in many ways, her counterpart, and closer to her than a lot of the other characters. He goes to the dark side of what Buffy is. He goes to what Slayers are, and what it means to be something different in this world.
~

Spike-. Buffy-. Spike provided Buffy with an emotional throughline that she wouldn't have had else, otherwise. I mean, um, Angel was gone. Angel was on his own show. She needed to have someone and making it her mortal enemy was an interesting way to go.

~

Spike is something special. Spike retained enough compassion. Some part of his soul was always there that allowed him to fall in love with Buffy where no vampire could.

~
But with Spike, I think that he is - I think that what makes him so interesting as a character is that there's something different about him. There's something different. When Angel was a vampire, he was this Angelus. When Spike was a vampire, he was able to fall in love with a Slayer.
-- Season 6 Overview
~

Jane Espenson:

If someone is there for you, is asking nothing of you and has loved you faithfully and unconditionally for all those years, and if that person is the one that you turn to for comfort and support when you are at your most vulnerable, and if they give you that comfort and support unconditionally asking nothing in return, then whether you acknowledge it or not, that is love, so yes, Buffy loved Spike.

Some would say Angel and Buffy really had more of an idealized first love while Spike and Buffy have the more adult, messy, kind of love which is more realistic. That's right. It's not idealized and it's just so often ugly and yet when James Marsters does stuff where you look in his face and you go, 'Oh, my God, he loves her so much!' Ahh! It's just so wonderful.

~
How do you follow-up her romance with Angel? I like the romance with Spike better. I'm more interested in the heat between those two characters because I felt Buffy and Angel had romantic love. Spike and Buffy have something so much more complicated that it's got that romance and all this other stuff on top of it which makes it so interesting for me.
~

Hercules T.:

Spike has earned Buffy's love in ways Angel couldn't contemplate.

Jenoff:

In a lot of ways, Buffy's relationship with Spike is the most normal relationship she has ever had. There are no secrets between them. When she first met Angel, he kept his vampire identity a secret. And it wasn't until it was too late that she found out all the details of the spell. Parker posed as a nice guy, but was just looking for another notch on his bed post. Riley turned out to be part of an experiment and half brother to a cyborg monster. Each of these lovers turned into something Buffy definitely did not want. But Spike is what he appears to be. Buffy knows all his failings and if he has any surprises, they are positive ones. It's interesting that this is the hardest relationship for Buffy to commit to while at the same time being the most honest and open of her relationships (she deceives her friends, but she and Spike do not deceive each other).

RRK: About Touched: From the minute I knew about this episode where Spike and Buffy just held each other I sort of finagled to get it because that was really how I thought of them and that's what I've wanted since I was a fan of the show.

Quotes taken from this website: Angel - Spikeà¢â„¢Â¥Buffy #3: - Fan Forum

I mean really, after reading those quotes, how can you NOT like and appreciate spuffy? 😀

 

[Flannen]

Yeah, like I honestly don't understand how some people either don't like Spuffy or insist their love was merely friendship. It's crazy! 😀 It's like saying that Twillow was merely friendship.

I feel as though a lot of people who are bangelers simply don't believe that Buffy would ever love someone as much as she loved Angel. A lot of them are the dreamers, the one's who love Disney movies, first loves, and happily ever afters. Whereas the spuffiers are the more realistic, down- to- earth type people, who love many 'ships besides Spuffy, like Spaith or Spred or Fuffy or Spangel or something. Or, if you're me, ALL of them. 😀 Whereas many bangelers hate any 'ship that has one of the characters in a different relationship, like Cangel/ Dangel/ Spangel. But anyway.

Don't be too hasty to tell the Bangels what they think or what they believe. It's not very respectful to suggest that someone is a dreamer, unrealistic and not down to earth just because they like something you don't and you assume they have a certain set of values.

I don't think anything needs to be said in response to the things you have suggested about Bangels, because if these shipper debates have taught me anything, it's that every single person, Bangel/Spuffy/no particular ship at all, is an individual who sees beauty in different things. And even if they disagree with me, they're not dreamers, or delusional or pre-destined to think a lot of things simply because they like a certain relationship. Every single Bangel, and Spuffy, fan has taken the time to post in all these sorts of threads and give their own personal opinions on why they like the ship that they do and they've been respectful and honest and not once have they been unrealistic or not down to earth about it. And that is what makes this place, and the people here, so great! 🙂

Of course I'd believe it, Joss is God. 😀 It's an interesting theory, but I'm more into believing and taking into account what the author thought. Without that, it doesn't feel like the authors story at all to me, more like a propaganda or fanfiction. Like, the creator has something in mind when they're creating something, so whatever they say, IMO, is obviously the message they want us to understand.

Well, after years of learning about literary criticism and having to apply it myself, I have to disagree with you. Take Shakespeare. He's long dead and gone and not a single thing of what he intended with his plays exists, yet he is the most famous and highly regarded writer and for the last four hundred years people have devoted their life to interpreting his work they see fit. Propaganda or fanfiction I really don't get? It's not rewriting it anyway its defining what a text what means to you; what it says to you; what it teaches you about yourself and the world around you. I hate to have anyone, writer or not, dictate that to me. The strongest writers are the ones who let the readers work it out for themselves.

But this is getting a little off-topic. And I've said all I have to say and everyone knows where I stand. If something 'new' occurs to me, I'll be back 😉

 

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

Spike is something special. Spike retained enough compassion. Some part of his soul was always there that allowed him to fall in love with Buffy where no vampire could.

This one is particularly interesting to me. Do you know who said this?

Many fans don't believe - 'verse mythology withstanding - that Spike had the capacity to love Buffy without a soul. Me, I'm on the fence. At times it seemed he did, but his actions are were so often attached to an agenda that it's hard to tell.
The thing that made Spike special was his ability to be good without a soul. A ability that no other vampire had. Spike still had humanity in him. While almost everyone will admit that Spike was different then other vampires, many don't believe he loved Buffy pre-soul. Yet, Dru does say in 'Crush' that vampires can love quite well, if not "wisely." So, either you can believe Dru, or not, but regardless, Spike did do good deeds before he got his soul, even if the entirely of his actions were not always good.

The war will never end whether or not Spike loved Buffy without a soul, but the fact still remains that he broke the mythology when he did his first good deed for Buffy and her sister in 'Intervention.' There was nothing in it for him. He allowed Glory to torture him and he refused to disclose who the Key was. Any other soulless vampire would, in a similar situation, be interested in self-preservation at this point, but not Spike. He knew that if Dawn died it would "destroy" Buffy. So, what caused this change in him? Certainly not the chip. It could be said that his love for her changed him and inspired him to be a good man. Yet, if you don't believe he loved her truly at this point then there's really no reason for his actions in 'Intervention.'

Anyway, I'd like to know who said that quote. Sounds like Joss to me.

But with Spike, I think that he is - I think that what makes him so interesting as a character is that there's something different about him. There's something different. When Angel was a vampire, he was this Angelus. When Spike was a vampire, he was able to fall in love with a Slayer.
-- Season 6 Overview

I like this one a lot, too. It only proves the obvious fact that Spike was different, an anomaly, and capable of more human-like actions/emotions then other vampires. It was this difference in him that made it possible for him to fall in love with Buffy and as a result, his desire for a soul and to self-improve to be the kind of person she deserved.

Spike has earned Buffy's love in ways Angel couldn't contemplate.

Eek, I love this! A member on here said this, right?

Again, my love of this quote is totally based on my personal opinion that Spike deserved Buffy's love. Not everyone believes that, especially after the events of "Seeing Red."

In a lot of ways, Buffy's relationship with Spike is the most normal relationship she has ever had. There are no secrets between them. When she first met Angel, he kept his vampire identity a secret. And it wasn't until it was too late that she found out all the details of the spell. Parker posed as a nice guy, but was just looking for another notch on his bed post. Riley turned out to be part of an experiment and half brother to a cyborg monster. Each of these lovers turned into something Buffy definitely did not want. But Spike is what he appears to be. Buffy knows all his failings and if he has any surprises, they are positive ones. It's interesting that this is the hardest relationship for Buffy to commit to while at the same time being the most honest and open of her relationships (she deceives her friends, but she and Spike do not deceive each other).

AH! This is fantastic. I've never seen this one before.

Thanks for posting these. 🙂

Here are some more Spike/Spuffy ones:

From Buffyversefan, just regarding Spike in general:

Angel's my favorite character, but I'd say Spike was a more impressive artistic feat. I can't think of another character that had such an organic journey from Super Villain to Comic Relief to Antihero to Champion.

And from James himself:

There are very, very few people Spike connects with, actually. His connection with Buffy is one of the reasons he was so attracted to her.

Also, did you know James wrote the "every night I save you" line?

And another one from James on the S4 commentary for "Who Are You":

...he would very much like to have kissed Buffy. And that's why he can't kill her, because he's in love with someone who's truly good. And so he's going to try and be the kind of man that Buffy would like to have.

So, according to James - the actor who played Spike for 7 years and who is obviously the "expert" regarding the character - Spike was in love with Buffy before he had a soul, and it was that love that prevented him from attempting to kill her and in the end, caused him to want to get a soul.

This is a bit off-topic, but I'm a sucker for couples that make each other better people. Spike was a monster until he met Buffy. His love for her make him human.

But, as great as your quotes are, they don't hold any water with those who don't take Joss and Co. as final say.

I sort of wish on some level that Spuffy had been actually obviously sleeping together in S7. At least in that case, there could be no argument if they were friends or lovers. *sigh*

 

[thevikingsgirl]

I surveyed the kids & they both say Buffy loved Spike. They're 3 and 5, so take it for what it's worth. lol Though my 5 year old is oddly insightful.

I definitely have noticed that there seems to be a certain personality type in Buffy/Angel shippers (and Bill/Sookie shippers for that matter). On average, they do seem to be more romantic natured, more into the idea of first love, etc. That's not to say all Bangel shippers are that way, just on average, more so than Spuffy shippers. It makes sense, considering Spuffy was raw and sometimes ugly and not all that romantic prior to season 7. I'm sure it's mostly our own life experiences that color our perceptions. I don't put first love on a superior level to any other love; I think often it's inferior in some ways, to love between people who have more life experience. That's jmo from my observations & my own life.

 

[Kelsey]

This is off-topic, but I'll just throw out there that I completely believe Spike loved Buffy without a soul. In the last few episodes of Season 5, his love for Buffy was one of the purest we'd seen so far, in my opinion. He wasn't asking for anything from her at this point--he just wanted to help her. Even then he showed his capacity to completely dedicate himself to her cause, and to support her without asking anything in return. He will, of course, resume this manner of thinking in Season 7.

Obviously S6 is a completely different story, but I do have to say that I think he still loved her. I don't believe love can always be idealistic and selfless. We're all people, and we're all flawed. Spike was always that way, just more so because of what he was. He loved her, but he was selfish, as people in love can sometimes be. I don't think that selfishness proves he didn't love her, just that he couldn't move past his own desires. Yes, theoretically love should always be kind and giving, but that just can't always be the case. There's a reason the people you love are the ones who can hurt you the most.

Anyway, the whole S7 Friends/Lovers debate is a moot point, I think. I believe there is complete proof that Buffy loved Spike as more than just a friend, but it's just not concrete enough for people not to try and argue the opposite. And that's okay, because I know I'll never believe Angel and Buffy should be together, no matter the arguments that people stack up against me.

 

[Wishing Oceans]

Don't be too hasty to tell the Bangels what they think or what they believe. It's not very respectful to suggest that someone is a dreamer, unrealistic and not down to earth just because they like something you don't and you assume they have a certain set of values.

Well, I never said being a dreamer was a BAD thing! 😀 And I also never said that Bangelers are unrealistic or not down to earth, I said that Spuffiers are USUALLY more so. And that's because the Bangel relationship was more of an idealized, fantasy type first love, whereas Spuffy was more realistic and adult- like. Naturally, one would assume that the fans would choose a 'ship that most meets their personal preference, the 'ship they can relate with. 😀

Like, check out this thread: Question Your Ideal of Love = Your Favorite 'Ship? - Buffy-Boards
That should probably explain what I mean. 😀

I don't think anything needs to be said in response to the things you have suggested about Bangels, because if these shipper debates have taught me anything, it's that every single person, Bangel/Spuffy/no particular ship at all, is an individual who sees beauty in different things.

True, but as thevikingsgirl pointed out, there's usually a general trait that all 'shippers of a particular 'ship possess. Like, most Bangelers are pretty romantic, and most Spuffiers AREN'T very romantic. Sure, everyone is unique and different, but most of us have things in common with each other. 😀

And even if they disagree with me, they're not dreamers, or delusional or pre-destined to think a lot of things simply because they like a certain relationship.

Once again, being a dreamer is NOT an insult. 😀 It's merely a love for the more "fantastical" side of things. I'm kind of a dreamer, too. And Bangelers on a whole aren't ridiculous, although some of us sometimes think their beliefs are... 😀 And it sometimes does, although obviously not in every case. Like, most bangelers love Cander and Woz, because they're more into that type of love. Just like most Spuffiers are into Twillow and Xanya.

Every single Bangel, and Spuffy, fan has taken the time to post in all these sorts of threads and give their own personal opinions on why they like the ship that they do and they've been respectful and honest and not once have they been unrealistic or not down to earth about it. And that is what makes this place, and the people here, so great! 🙂

Most of us anyway. 😀 I just mean, as I've aforementioned, that the Bangel 'ship is more unrealistic than other 'ships, not that Bangel supporters themselves are unrealistic. 🙂

Well, after years of learning about literary criticism and having to apply it myself, I have to disagree with you. Take Shakespeare. He's long dead and gone and not a single thing of what he intended with his plays exists, yet he is the most famous and highly regarded writer and for the last four hundred years people have devoted their life to interpreting his work they see fit.

True, true. This is obviously your area of expertise (and definitely not mine...) so I won't debate with you about it. 😀

Propaganda or fanfiction I really don't get? It's not rewriting it anyway its defining what a text what means to you; what it says to you; what it teaches you about yourself and the world around you. I hate to have anyone, writer or not, dictate that to me. The strongest writers are the ones who let the readers work it out for themselves.

What I mean is taking the facts and kinda twisting them to a certain perspective that the reader prefers, instead of looking at it from every perspective. 🙂 As for your last statement, that's true, which is another reason I don't like Bangel too much. Everything was so completely obvious and pretty impossible to look deeper into, IMO. Whereas Spuffy was mysterious, deep, and pretty much completely up to one's imagination. 😀 Like, as Joss said about that spuffy shot in Chosen, "I wanted to get a couple of shots -- we were going fast -- and that one I didn't know if I was gonna use, the two of them. And to me, it's almost the most important shot in the show, because it really shows the mystery of their relationship. -- DVD commentary, "Chosen"

But this is getting a little off-topic. And I've said all I have to say and everyone knows where I stand. If something 'new' occurs to me, I'll be back 😉

Also, I noticed how you didn't comment on my Spufftastic quotes or Spuffy arguments. 😀 What's your opinion on those? 😉

This one is particularly interesting to me. Do you know who said this?

That was said by David Fury, actually. 🙂 Also, I've included the website that had the quotes and the person who said the quote right above the quote if you want to check it out. 😀

Eek, I love this! A member on here said this, right?

No, it was said by Mr. Hercules T. Strong, a news writer. 😀