Spuffy: the 'Grown-up' Relationship?

[Kean]

Ok this is something that seems to always come up and I am curious as to what people think.

It is almost inevitable that in any kind of Bangel vs Spuffy discussion some Spuffy will remark how Spuffy was a 'grown up' relationship and that's why they are attracted to the ship and more so why they do not like Bangel.

Also, Bangel is automatically dismissed as childish without any real reason other than that it took place during high school and was first love.

I have to wonder how Spuffy is considering a mature relationship when Buffy and Spike's romantic involvement was the least grown up of any the relationships throughout the series.

Enlighten me?

 

[white avenger]

Ok this is something that seems to always come up and I am curious as to what people think.

It is almost inevitable that in any kind of Bangel vs Spuffy discussion some Spuffy will remark how Spuffy was a 'grown up' relationship and that's why they are attracted to the ship and more so why they do not like Bangel.

Also, Bangel is automatically dismissed as childish without any real reason other than that it took place during high school and was first love.

I have to wonder how Spuffy is considering a mature relationship when Buffy and Spike's romantic involvement was the least grown up of any the relationships throughout the series.

Enlighten me?

Because it's an easy argument? No, really, I consider the Spuffy relationship to be a relationship more mature that Bangel, but probably not the "settling down for good" kind of thing. I think that every relationship that Buffy has has is a bit more mature than the last, simply because SHE is more mature when entering into it. Angel, Riley, Spike, and even Satsu, have added to her experience, judgment, and maturity in such a way as to help her to, when the time is right, settle down with the long haul guy that she almost certainly has not met yet.

Angel gave her innocent love. Riley gave her stability. Spike gave her passion. Satsu...I'm not quite sure exactly just what her contribution will be just yet, unless it is to allow Buffy to participate in a relationship with another lonely person who she genuinely likes, considers a friend, and who shares and can sympathize with her way of life, with its dangers, fears, and pain.

 

[Veyron]

Well it's obvious isn't it?

Bangel was a first love for Buffy that's true enough - but if Angelus hadn't of been cursed by the gypsies then Angel and Buffy wouldn't have been in a position to be in a relationship of any kind apart from Buffy staking Angelus. I wouldn't say that Bangel is dismissed as childish at all - the relationship is it's itself flawed because of circumstance - if the gypsies hadn't of cursed him it would never have happened - simple as.

As for Spuffy - well, Spike fell in love with Buffy, you can't deny that. He tried to please her and she blew him off. He went off to get his soul back and succeeded. His efforts to win Buffy's attentions in the romance department didn't go un-noticed and toward the end of S7 Buffy reciprocated that attention.

How do you define the relationship as 'the least grown up'? As I don't actually think it was the least - it was more true to life than a lot of the other ships - it had it's ups and downs, arguements, sex, fighting (with each other and against others) and a whole lot more.

 

[Tueuse de Vampires]

Well, what makes it more 'mature' is all the sex. Like, with Angel it was basically sex bad, they did it one time and the consequences were catastrophic. So they fell back to that nice teenage high school drill. Whereas Buffy and Spike...well, some scenes got cencored, not without a reason. That's one point of the maturiy. Maybe not these days, where every 12yr-old is doing it already, but when I was in that age, sex was always the mighty grown up thing.

Then there's the emotional aspect. Angel and Buffy had this classic relationship teenage girls dream about, meet a guy like that, fall madly in love etc. So I already said it, teenagers dream about it.

 

[Kean]

Well it's obvious isn't it?

Bangel was a first love for Buffy that's true enough - but if Angelus hadn't of been cursed by the gypsies then Angel and Buffy wouldn't have been in a position to be in a relationship of any kind apart from Buffy staking Angelus. I wouldn't say that Bangel is dismissed as childish at all - the relationship is it's itself flawed because of circumstance - if the gypsies hadn't of cursed him it would never have happened - simple as.

As for Spuffy - well, Spike fell in love with Buffy, you can't deny that. He tried to please her and she blew him off. He went off to get his soul back and succeeded. His efforts to win Buffy's attentions in the romance department didn't go un-noticed and toward the end of S7 Buffy reciprocated that attention.

How do you define the relationship as 'the least grown up'? As I don't actually think it was the least - it was more true to life than a lot of the other ships - it had it's ups and downs, arguements, sex, fighting (with each other and against others) and a whole lot more.

I think it was the least mature relationship because when they were actually together Buffy essentially used Spike. He was in love with her and she didn't love him but she played on his emotions just so she could get hers. That isn't anywhere in the relam of mature.
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Edit:
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Well, what makes it more 'mature' is all the sex. Like, with Angel it was basically sex bad, they did it one time and the consequences were catastrophic. So they fell back to that nice teenage high school drill. Whereas Buffy and Spike...well, some scenes got cencored, not without a reason. That's one point of the maturiy. Maybe not these days, where every 12yr-old is doing it already, but when I was in that age, sex was always the mighty grown up thing.

Then there's the emotional aspect. Angel and Buffy had this classic relationship teenage girls dream about, meet a guy like that, fall madly in love etc. So I already said it, teenagers dream about it.

Sex doesn't make a relationship mature, especially the sex life that Buffy and Spike had. It was destructive.

I'm not saying that Bangel was the pillar of maturity because it wasn't but I don't think it deserves the childish, wistful tag it's given. After Angel loses his soul there is no innocence about their relationship.

 

[Perny]

I think so.

Love's three stages:

Innocent - Angel. You fall deeply in love, and your love will never quite leave, since it's the first. You'll always have something with the first love.

The inbetween - Riley. Trying to find the right guy. At the beginning it's great, and you can't get enough, but you'll realize it isn't the love you seek.

Experienced - Spike. Love isn't all flowers and pink ponies! But lust and passion will rule. You'll struggle, but it's worth it. You grow beyond love.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

Well, I think Spuffy was the 'grown-up' relationship because it was the first relationship Buffy had whilst being jaded. She lived in a fairytale make-believe world of innocence and sweat-potato pie. It took a bad relationship and a one-night stand to wise her up and realize that not everyone would treat her as well as Angel did. One cannot ever have a grown-up relationship unless they have been jaded and heartbroken (because you never know the alternative).

Ergo, Spuffy was a more 'grown-up' relationship.

 

[white avenger]

I'm not saying that Bangel was the pillar of maturity because it wasn't but I don't think it deserves the childish, wistful tag it's given. After Angel loses his soul there is no innocence about their relationship.

It wasn't childish, it was simply first. At least as far as we know within the confines of the show, it was first love for both Buffy AND Angel, and first love is a wonderful, unforgettable thing, something to cherish forever. Even at my age, I can remember that. And Buffy's relationship with Angelus is without argument far more destructive than anything that she ever had with Spike, because Angelus, or Angel, was that first, wonderful love, and after a single night, he deteriorated into a monster.
Exactly the opposite of what happened with Spike. He was the monster first.

The childish part comes in when Buffy is portrayed as trying to hang on to that first love after she has obviously grown past it. I still have the same feelings for my first great love now that I had when it was all fresh and wonderful, but neither of us is the same person anymore. That 18 year old boy and 17 year old girl only exist in the minds of two people who have been changing steadily for the last 40 years. We just plain don't belong together anymore. Angel and Buffy were great while the relationship was all fresh and new, but it's in the past. You simply can't go back.

 

[palabravampiress]

I think Spuffy is a more mature relationship largely because Spike was the first of Buffy's love interests to really understand, accept, and even love Buffy's flaws as well as her strengths. Over time and in return, Buffy learned to understand, accept, and even love Spike's unique flaws and strengths. They dealt with the nitty-gritty parts of one another. They saw the best and the worst of one another and, in the end, they both came out as stronger, better people for it. Buffy became the strong, happy, self-confident woman we see smiling at the end of Chosen. Spike became a champion. Neither of them could have reached that point without the other. Without Spike's love, Buffy would have self-destructed in season 6. Without Buffy's love, Spike would have done the same in season 7. It wasn't perfect. A lot of it was just plain wrong. But right or wrong, good or bad, Spike and Buffy faced every aspect of their respective characters. By the end, there were no illusions. They knew each other. It was raw. It was real. That's why I think it was more mature: they had the courage to face the rough stuff which, in the end, made them both better people.

By contrast, Bangel seems more shallow. It is predicated on happy, floppy, bunny feelings. It progressed too quickly from initial attraction to love without much time for knowledge of either the self or the other in-between. It wasn't based so much on what was as on what both parties wanted it to be. And what both parties wanted was that one lasting true love ideal that pretty much only exists in fairy tales, and even then, it's the watered down Disneyfied version. When they were faced with the bumpier, grittier aspects of another, the relationship couldn't survive. The downfall of the Buffy/Angel relationship was, ultimately, that they could not accept themselves, let alone one another. Angel couldn't accept and integrate Angelus. Buffy couldn't accept and integrate the slayer. They fell apart because Angel decided that Buffy would be better off in a "normal" relationship -- as Buffy, not as Buffy the Vampire Slayer. In the end, he didn't love the Slayer just as Buffy didn't love Angelus. They never faced their respective demons together, focusing instead on only the better aspects of their characters. They ignored the elephant in the room. That is a less mature, more innocent kind of love that is certainly valuable and has its place, but is rather illusory and less realistic in nature.

That's why I think Spuffy was more mature. I don't necessarily mean that Spike and Buffy were made for each other and should be together forever or anything. I just mean that it was more mature because they faced all aspects of one another and, through doing so, they grew as people. Buffy and Angel didn't face the negative aspects of their respective personalities and, as a result, they became stuck in a physical and emotional rut in which their relationship was unable to progress to the next level.

 

[Blair Waldorf-Bass]

Spuffy was so much more mature then any of the other relationships that Buffy was in, and Spike, for the matter. They both changed each other a lot. Buffy went from being this young and innocent sweet girl to this dark woman and eventually she learned what it was to use someone and finally grow beyond that. For Spike he didn't care because he was in love with Buffy but eventually he went and got a soul because of the bathroom scene. But Buffy never treated Spike right in season six, even though there was all that passion from him, she was always just using him and that's what always makes me angry whenever I watch season six, I think it's because she is, at first, *ashamed* to be seen with Spike, and the fact that she's in love with him but too afraid to admit it. But goodness, there season seven relationship was so raw and rich and beautiful and really made me cry the most. All the times that they were there for each other and learned how to move on from how they'd hurt each other the previous year is really what makes Spuffy both the best and the most mature relationship in both of the shows.

 

[Tranquillity]

I haven't read all the answers yet, I didn't want them to influence my thoughts so forgive me if I repeat what has already been said:

I think what it comes down to, for me, is the amount of work that was put into maintaining the relationship and how it coped with the changes that went on in the participant's lives.

Angel & Buffy "“ were in love, first love for both of them. But as individuals they were both going through some enormous changes. Still developing and maturing (yes, even though Angel was a 240 year old vampire, he was only just beginning to "˜find himself'). They also had some major hurdles to try and navigate; Vampire, age, the curse, their "missions". The relationship did not adapt well to these problems. They did try though; all through season three they were on-again-off-again. But, ultimately, the fact that they couldn't have sex was insurmountable and their individual missions were incompatible. Angel had to leave Sunnydale and Buffy to find purpose in his life. He's just not the sidekick type. That's not to say that Buffy stopped loving him or he her. They didn't. They preserved that love; they set it amber where it could never die but also could never change.... Poor Riley never stood a chance.

Buffy & Riley "“ Riley was the rebound guy. Poor deluded fella' thought he was the long-haul guy. But really, he was very much like Angel, only without the vampire parts. He was an Angel substitute. This relationship had no work put into it. It was very much taken for granted, particularly on Buffy's side and Riley wasn't keen on the sidekick thing either. No surprise when this relationship failed. Which brings us to Spuffy...

Buffy & Spike "“ had relationship that thrived on change. From mortal enemies, to reluctant allies, to one-sided love, to kind-of-friends, to groin-buddies, to the intimate relationship they had in the end; the one consistency we have is the very survival of the relationship. At various time one or the other fights to keep the relationship (in whatever guise) alive. After the debacle with his declaration of love in Crush Buffy says that it's the end "“ she wants him out of Sunnydale and out of her life. But he won't budge. He fights to stay in her life and wins when Buffy needs him to help protect Dawn. By surviving torture at glory's hand, by staying constant when she is dead, Spike proves himself reliable and Buffy values that. When she comes back from the dead she feels a connection to him that she doesn't feel for anyone else. So at first they have a friendship and then it changes into the intensely passionate "˜thing' that they have. And feeling and emotions get all jumbled and confused; there's definite attraction but he's a vampire and she's a slayer, there's unbelievable sex but no soul, Spike's good but he's also bad. So of course, Buffy ends the relationship. But wait "“ she doesn't end the relationship as a whole; she ends that part of the relationship. Buffy and Spike continue to exist even though she doesn't want to have sex with him anymore. And then the AR - the low point for Buffy and Spike. Surely now this must be the end of everything? But that's the thing with Spike and Buffy "“ it's not. He goes to get a soul and she wonders when he'll be back. Which brings us to season seven in which we see Buffy fight for someone as we've never seen her fight before (I'm talking on a personal level here, not apocalypse-type fighting). Once she finds out about the soul she will not let him give up. Her belief in him is infectious and together they forge a new relationship based on what they are and on what they were. It's not starting again; it's re-working what they had. That's why I find this relationship more mature, more adult - because they are shown to actively work at the relationship. It has highs and lows but it survives because both of them want it to.

Now I'll go and read the other answers🙂

 

[Kana]

I definitely get both sides of the argument. From a Spuffy perspective, a lot of fans felt Bangel was a lot to do with teen romance, about idealist expectation and to be honest, I agree and even said it in another post.

The extreme argument seems to be that Spike and Buffy truly knew each other and grew in understanding of themselves and of the other.

Bangel was about first love, falling in love at first sight. Sure first love has it's place but Spuffy is more adult, emotional honest etc.

Also Buffy was an older more mature person when she was with Spike.

When I told my mother about this she scoffed but then she is biased by the Riley love and the fact that she doesn't like the idea of either vampire being with Buffy s I stopped the conversation short.

I then asked my Bangelist friend and she said something similar to Keanoite. "Mature?" she said. "If anything Buffy emotionally regressed! She used Spike to eshew her responsibilities. This is the exact opposite of sacrificing love to save the world, hence the exact opposite of mature."

Whilst I'm not really all that biased either way I played devil's advocate.

"Ah but maturity is not just about being perfect and moral. Sometimes you need to explore more complex relationships to grow beyond the simple notion of teen romance where everything is about holding hands. Buffy needed to grow as a person."

At this point she sighed with exasperation "Why??!!!" she almost screamed. "Why do you have to enter into an unhealthy relationship to grow? Is this is generalisation we should make? Is this what you'd recommend to your kids?!! 'Hey use a guy, you'll be a more mature and centred in the long run.

I calmly brought her attention to to the fact that she was placing more focus on Season 6 then Season 7. "Don't get me started on Buffy in Season 7..." she started.

I gave up and we had some more drinks and went to another bar.

Ok so a Spuffy fan she is not. It did get me thinking though. While she was adament that Buffy actually regressed in Season 6 AND 7 I couldn't help thinking she was just as dogmatic as most shippers. Bangel= true love and Spuffy=lust+depression and settling for the most available vamp or Spuffy=something real, complete understanding and Bangel= teen delusions of what you might have thought was a mature relationship...ten years ago.

I was no closer. So I thought I'd do what I normally do: break down the question. My friend however, biased she may have been hit upon an interesting rebuttle to the orginal query. Is older necessarily more mature? Bangelist often say that age means nothing and that Buffy was mature and wise beyond her years and she came back from hell, she was never same and not in a good way. I can't totally agree with this. While older doesn't necessarily equate to 'more mature', we are still products of our experiences. We learn and changed and suffer as a result of everything we go through. I actually agree that Buffy wasn't perfect in Season 6 and 7 but she also got some insight into herself that she never got before and in my eyes I can't bet money on Buffy gaining this experience with or without Spike. I couldn't tell you either way, but I suppose I'd agree with my friend that not everything she went through with Spike had to happen but the same could be said of her relationship with Angel.

To go to the other side of the fence, a lot of Bangelist don't realise that Spike and Buffy did share a connect that was virtually unrivalled. He really did see the best and worst in her and carried on loving her. I actually think that this has a lot to do with Spike. He actually became more emotionally honest with Buffy than Angel ever was. This can give relationships strength and foundation.

Oh dear. Have we just sided with the Spuffies? Is maturity equated to the grittiness of truth and however harsh it may seem? The Bangelist grumble. However it is not a grumble of admittance. They in fact do the side step and give their best attribute, idealistic expectation. Now isn't this just sticking your fingers in your ears, closing your eyes (yeah ok, pun intended) and hoping it's all going to be ok?

Yes well, I'm one of those people who think you can't seperate the love from the lover. It is that way because Angel partly makes it that way. The representation of what could be and seeing her as your destiny. What's wrong with that? Is that unhealty? Is it immature to have a love that isn't tainted in self-loathing? Well certainly not immature for that reason no.

We cannot even get a straight conclusion from the Buffster. I've always stated that there is a truth in how we feel and the emotional reactions to our experience. Bangelist cheer and the infamous quote in Selfless and Spuffies bask in Buffy's declaration in Chosen.

The truth as I see it is that both men and relationships correspond to the Slayer in one way or another. Contrary to what both parties sometimes protest, Buffy didn't lose the part of her that we fell in love. She actually developed other parts of herself, some positive and negative. Is she a stronger person? Measured by what? Some of her acheivement seems of more qualitive value in her earlier years, I'd also contend that some of her later failing we due to circumstance and wouldn't necessarily be a sign of regression.

I don't like to see the dichotomy as clear cut as it has been represented as it undermines both romances. Both extreme arguments ignore highlights of the apexes of the other side of the chasm and also the sweep under the carpet their own select few unpleasentries. I hear screams of the pandemonium almost deafening my ears but in the end I hear in unison from both sides, "it's not perfect but at least it's true love". Can we not reconcile both sides? Can there not be elements of regression and progression in both? Does it have to be one or the other? I suppose my own delusions and bias renders me incapable of hearing the inevitable "No, no and yes" as the answers to my questions

 

[Relic]

Love is more than facing demons together, sometimes there comes a point where you have to walk away and get your crap together for the benefit of the person you love.
Angel did this for Buffy, he wanted a life free of Angelus for the both of them.

Angelus is not a part of him or an ability that defines him, it's an infliction, one that has caused both him and her much pain. Until he could mend this and have a natural life with her, he stepped away hoping she would either find someone new or that maybe in time they both could be together again if he could riddle out away of being free of Angelus and become mortal.

This doing the hard thing was not a break up in my eyes for an immature reason, rather the opposite in my opinion. It had nothing to do with Buffy not accepting Angelus; it was about Angel not accepting Angelus... I can't see how it has anything to do with Buffy not accepting the Slayer part of her identity.

I think Angels decision was to save her the pain and risk of killing Angelus again...and Angel along with him. I don't believe he sees the slayer and Buffy as seperate entities as palabra suggests, he left because he knows they are one in the same and he wanted to be as happy of an influence on her life as he can because he loves her. I think he did the right thing for their love. As Kenny chesney sings it "I'm better as a memeory than as your man." ..............or maybe cursed vampire?

Who knows, maybe once he's mortal (if that has not allready happened and Buffy Satsu/ Suffy is over)...maybe they will end up together again. I dunno.

Now my Spike information is admittedly lacking, I'm re watching season five currently and have not seen season six or seven yet (But have heard spoilers) With Spike we have a creature that wants to kill her, finds out he can't and gets Stockholm syndrome to the point it seriously changes him and he falls in love with Buffy. This relationship shows alot of growth...mainly by Spike

I believe there comes a point where he finds out he can hurt her and tries to rape her? Then has regret and goes on a quest for a soul and goes through much pain for her? I'm kind of sketchy on those details. When he gets souled he's still a vampire, correct? So he won't grow old while she will. He's setting himself up for having to go through much of pain to eventually go through some more assuming he'll outlive her. There is no doubt in my mind that Spikes love for her is true.

As long as she's with Spike though, her life is compounded by unnaturalness, his and hers. I'm not saying that Angel walking away so Buffy can have at least an opportunity at an illusion of normal life makes his love more mature, but that seems a very responsible way to act in consideration of the other persons feelings.

Given the perfect ending Buffy could be like a supernatural police officer with a husband that knows about her gig and will age naturally with her. Hell, maybe even a white picket fence, a dog, and little Buffies if she wanted them.

This opportunity is denied by a relationship with either Spike or Angel, but perhaps she doesn't even want that kind of ending. I realize that there are no such thing as perfect endings but there are such thing as perfectly wrong ones. I've always thought of Angels self induced exile as sort of a rehab that doesn't have a solution yet.

Keanoite, I'm curious as to why you think Buffy did not love Spike and used him. The reason why I ask is that maybe Buffy on some levels resents Spike chasing after her because of the cost of it all,(normalcy or as close as she can get to it) a cost Angel did not want her to have to pay.

I actually think Buffy could have a closer to normal relationship with Spike as a chipped vampire than Angel as a souled vampire because of intimacy and overall carefree approach to stuff.
But is chipped Spike the same as souled Spike?
Would souled Spike aka William come to grips with the eventual cost of their relationship and do the right thing for Buffy (Like angel did) if his quest for a soul came at a price like angels curse and William the Bloody could go on a tear as soon as the consummate their relationship? Given time and motive...walking in Angels shoes for a bit with his own version of Angelus hanging in his shadow, I bet William would walk away as well

Me, I love both ships, I don't have a favorite, but I have alot more to watch. They both are equal in maturity in my eyes. I feel kinda like a kid talking out of turn during adult dicussion, but like son like father. (atleast were honest with our feelings 😉 )

 

[Kana]

The thread is very much alive again. I have to remind myself to karma Keanoite for the new twist in an old debate.

Love is more than facing demons together, sometimes there comes a point where you have to walk away and get your crap together for the benefit of the person you love.
Angel did this for Buffy, he wanted a life free of Angelus for the both of them.

To me, this goes back to my point that you cannot seperate the love from the lover. Angel believed he was doing the right thing for Buffy but he does tend to make decision for people that greatly affect them without consulting them. He may also lie to protect people. His love isn't perfect because he isn't.

As for Spike...The relationship was destructive in Season 6 but as many Buffy defenders tell me, he is just as guilty for letting it happen as Buffy is for instigating it. Couldn't the truth seer Spike see that she was miserable? Couldn't he see that it wasn't healthy for either of them? Again the love he had wasn't perfect because etc, you get the picture.

Angelus is not a part of him or an ability that defines him, it's an infliction, one that has caused both him and her much pain. Until he could mend this and have a natural life with her, he stepped away hoping she would either find someone new or that maybe in time they both could be together again if he could riddle out away of being free of Angelus and become mortal.

Well I don't judge soullessSpike or Angelus that much anyway. To say that Buffy should accept Angelus is like saying that Oz should have loved and accepted VampWillow. At the very least Angelus is a qualitively different person from Angel.

This doing the hard thing was not a break up in my eyes for an immature reason, rather the opposite in my opinion. It had nothing to do with Buffy not accepting Angelus; it was about Angel not accepting Angelus... I can't see how it has anything to do with Buffy not accepting the Slayer part of her identity.

I've always felt that both of them struggled with their identity throughout. This isn't dependent on who she was with. Even in Season eight she's struggling. As for Angel, he was trying to protect Bufy but he does that with everyone. He's the protector. This isn't macho thing, it's just who he is.

I think Angels decision was to save her the pain and risk of killing Angelus again...and Angel along with him. I don't believe he sees the slayer and Buffy as seperate entities as palabra suggests, he left because he knows they are one in the same and he wanted to be as happy of an influence on her life as he can because he loves her. I think he did the right thing for their love. As Kenny chesney sings it "I'm better as a memeory than as your man." ..............or maybe cursed vampire?

Whether he was right or wrong, at the very least Buffy understood and even agreed with his reasoning. In Season 6, Buffy had the make the hard choice by letting Spike go. It was difficult for her but she had to respect herself and Spike as well.

Have to go now, but I'll address some of the other points later.

 

[Blodeuedd]

Could it be that when it came to Spike she knew what she wanted.
She was well aware of what he was and what he was capable of, and i don't think it had anything to do with the "bad boy" persona

 

[Relic]

You could say the same for Angel, Riley and now Satsu. Least I think so...and I agree that it had nothing to do with a bad boy persona.

I honestly don't think buffy wants a monster in her man so much as someone like Spike or Angel that could see the darkness in her, all the oddities, and love her anyway. love her in spite of as well as because of what she is.

I don't think Spike is a special case of knowing what she wants; she wanted each relationship she knew who/what they were (well not in Rileys case initially) and she took the plunge.

I can't really say anything about Satsu because I know jack squat about her other than Buffy has moved on since Spike to her.

 

[Kana]

Just to get back to Relics points...

Now my Spike information is admittedly lacking, I'm re watching season five currently and have not seen season six or seven yet (But have heard spoilers) With Spike we have a creature that wants to kill her, finds out he can't and gets Stockholm syndrome to the point it seriously changes him and he falls in love with Buffy. This relationship shows alot of growth...mainly by Spike

A lot of external change but I'll only go into the details of that, if I'm forced to. I believe he changed the most, internally, after he got his soul.

I believe there comes a point where he finds out he can hurt her and tries to rape her? Then has regret and goes on a quest for a soul and goes through much pain for her? I'm kind of sketchy on those details. When he gets souled he's still a vampire, correct? So he won't grow old while she will. He's setting himself up for having to go through much of pain to eventually go through some more assuming he'll outlive her. There is no doubt in my mind that Spikes love for her is true.

Essentially, but I suppose it's important for Spike to love regardless. The eternity bit isn't the most important bit but being able to have experienced love.

As long as she's with Spike though, her life is compounded by unnaturalness, his and hers. I'm not saying that Angel walking away so Buffy can have at least an opportunity at an illusion of normal life makes his love more mature, but that seems a very responsible way to act in consideration of the other persons feelings.

I think it depends on the person. Spike offered to leave when he thought he would put Buffy's life in danger after he got his soul but before, he continued his relationship with Buffy even though it was most likely unhealthy for both of them.

Given the perfect ending Buffy could be like a supernatural police officer with a husband that knows about her gig and will age naturally with her. Hell, maybe even a white picket fence, a dog, and little Buffies if she wanted them.

I've always said that I didn't want to define Buffy's idea of happiness before she did, however, I'm not adverse to that image. 🙂.

This opportunity is denied by a relationship with either Spike or Angel, but perhaps she doesn't even want that kind of ending. I realize that there are no such thing as perfect endings but there are such thing as perfectly wrong ones. I've always thought of Angels self induced exile as sort of a rehab that doesn't have a solution yet.

Interesting way of looking at it.

Keanoite, I'm curious as to why you think Buffy did not love Spike and used him. The reason why I ask is that maybe Buffy on some levels resents Spike chasing after her because of the cost of it all,(normalcy or as close as she can get to it) a cost Angel did not want her to have to pay.

I think she definitely used Spike at first but even in Season 6, she felt for him and that was one of the reasons she couldn't use him anymore. I believe what she said when she said she couldn't love him and she was being selfish and weak. At that point she couldn't love him, maybe she couldn't have a healthy romantic relationship on account of how she was feeling about herself.

I actually think Buffy could have a closer to normal relationship with Spike as a chipped vampire than Angel as a souled vampire because of intimacy and overall carefree approach to stuff.

Hmm, the soul still seemed kind of important to Buffy, I'm not sure if she could be with a being that has the same metaphysical properties as the very creatures she kills, not without conflicts anyway.

But is chipped Spike the same as souled Spike?

Whole other debate.

Would souled Spike aka William come to grips with the eventual cost of their relationship and do the right thing for Buffy (Like angel did) if his quest for a soul came at a price like angels curse and William the Bloody could go on a tear as soon as the consummate their relationship? Given time and motive...walking in Angels shoes for a bit with his own version of Angelus hanging in his shadow, I bet William would walk away as well

It's a little different because Spike isn't cursed and soullessSpike certainly isn't as sadistic as Angelus. Seen as Spike got hmself a soul, he may just get a soul again if he lost it, who knows...

Me, I love both ships, I don't have a favorite, but I have alot more to watch. They both are equal in maturity in my eyes. I feel kinda like a kid talking out of turn during adult dicussion, but like son like father. (atleast were honest with our feelings 😉 )

Yeah like them both too, but I also have issues with both of them. I also like Ruffy lol.

 

[Relic]

Its fun to talk about this stuff with you Kana, you have a nice introspective way of looking at all this. I can see where you get your title. 🙂

I won't quote your quotes with my quotes to make qoutefest 08, but I'll reply to what you've said to the best of my abilities. If I misunderstand or misrepresent something, its not my intent.

(starting with the post above)

I agree with much that you say when I think on it, but I assume the change in Spike once he gets a soul must be huge because I'd argue that he changed a great deal with just the chip.

I think a big change happened to Spike pre soul, in fact that chip did whatever voodoo it did so well, Spike went on his own little forced vacation after attempting to rape Buffy because he believed she deserved better and was determined to find that in himself, make that in himself.

He wanted to give her that happy ending (mind out of the gutters Spuffers) Thats not too much unlike why Angel left. The only difference, I assume, is Spike pulls it off without fear of a curse? In a way it was like what I believe would have happened should Angel become mortal, it makes me happy to know I'll get to watch this coolness happen, and makes me pretty jazzed to watch season 6 and 7.

To make things clearer, I'm not saying that when William got his soul back, he went through less of a change than when Spike got his chip, I haven't saw this first hand yet because I haven't watched the episodes so it's hard for me to say one way or another.

What I can attest to is a huge change in early chipped Spike. He went from Spike the betrayer in season 4 to Spike the near martyr to Glory (to protect what Buffy cares about) in season 5. I think between bringing flowers to the Summers house with no card upon Joyce's passing, to taking a shine to and protecting Dawn, to defeating glory Spike was a different animal, but I think in his heart he knew still somewhat an animal.
This can be confirmed by the awkward and terrible thing that happenes in latter seasons. (How he can latter try to rape Buffy in season 6 or 7 is beyond me. I'm not sure how I'm going to wrap my mind around that one.)

Whatever the case may be though, something other than the chip started him down the road to get a soul...which makes a chip restriction look sorta weak in comparison. This is the same chip he was trying to get Adam to cut out of his skull in season 4 but it's not the same Spike.

His motives completely change even if he holds on to some of the wicked behavior. Basically what I'm saying is the want to change in the first place is a huge change for Spike, one that I admire. From a blood thirsty creature that would make Buffy's throat his chalice and drink deep to a thing with guilt that strives to be a person worth loving and that could love her 'safely'. Spike changed bucket loads, in my opinion before he reacquired his soul. I believe that loved caused this change.

I agree that its important that he simply just love as well, I just felt the need to differentiate it from the Stockholm syndrome that I suggested, though that might have started the ball rolling (I'm not sure in earnest how Stockholm syndrome works, is it falling in love with your captors or just agreeing with them?)

You did bring an important question into my noggin about William walking away from Buffy like Angel did, if the cost of physical intimacy/complete happiness with Buffy, would be Spike on the loose.

Yes, Spike isn't half the psychotic misery making monster Angelus is, at least not a chipped Spike with behavior modified...for that matter I just theorized that Spike had changed awhole lot!

That Spike also went on a quest to get a soul because he was so grieved by what he had done to Buffy, he did the change-arro. If William loves Buffy as much as Spike did, would he risk reverting back to the other thing that tried to hurt her so? That vampire so desperate to 'evolve' for love sake that it inspired the change?

I can't say for sure but my hearts telling me no.

This has been alot of fun and a good topic! I hope it continues
: popcorn:

I hope this post wasn't too hard to follow, it's kinda a mis mash of my reaction to your reaction of my reaction. If its as difficult to understand as I think it is, I apologize. 🙂

 

[Blair Waldorf-Bass]

I hope this post wasn't too hard to follow, it's kinda a mis mash of my reaction to your reaction of my reaction. If its as difficult to understand as I think it is, I apologize. 🙂

Hmm, it was a bit hard to follow but I think I undestood most of what you were saying. 🙂

 

[Kana]

Its fun to talk about this stuff with you Kana, you have a nice introspective way of looking at all this. I can see where you get your title. 🙂

Thanks, but, title? 🙂.


(starting with the post above)

I agree with much that you say when I think on it, but I assume the change in Spike once he gets a soul must be huge because I'd argue that he changed a great deal with just the chip.

Well for me his biggest internal change happened on Ats Season 5. Spike never much contemplated morality much but mainly did what he did for love whether for good or evil.

I think a big change happened to Spike pre soul, in fact that chip did whatever voodoo it did so well, Spike went on his own little forced vacation after attempting to rape Buffy because he believed she deserved better and was determined to find that in himself, make that in himself.

Absolutely, it was a huge change but I think it was for Buffy but not for himself. This isn't to do with selfishness or selflessness, it just made me wonder what Spike really believes himself, independent of Buffy, I got the answer to that in Ats.

He wanted to give her that happy ending (mind out of the gutters Spuffers) Thats not too much unlike why Angel left. The only difference, I assume, is Spike pulls it off without fear of a curse? In a way it was like what I believe would have happened should Angel become mortal, it makes me happy to know I'll get to watch this coolness happen, and makes me pretty jazzed to watch season 6 and 7.

Again, this goes back to the lover's love argument. I think both Spike and Angel had the best intentions. Both had weaknesses but they did their best for Buffy.

To make things clearer, I'm not saying that when William got his soul back, he went through less of a change than when Spike got his chip, I haven't saw this first hand yet because I haven't watched the episodes so it's hard for me to say one way or another.

Ooh, you got to watch, hope I haven't spoilt it too much.

What I can attest to is a huge change in early chipped Spike. He went from Spike the betrayer in season 4 to Spike the near martyr to Glory (to protect what Buffy cares about) in season 5. I think between bringing flowers to the Summers house with no card upon Joyce's passing, to taking a shine to and protecting Dawn, to defeating glory Spike was a different animal, but I think in his heart he knew still somewhat an animal.

I think a lot of it was adaptation. There are some quotes in Season 7 that support my claim from Spike himself but I'll let you watch it first.

This can be confirmed by the awkward and terrible thing that happenes in latter seasons. (How he can latter try to rape Buffy in season 6 or 7 is beyond me. I'm not sure how I'm going to wrap my mind around that one.)

Again I think it's explained if you watch the seasons.

I'll analyse the rest later, but got to go.