The Buffy Rip Off Diaries

[chasesummers]

Well than...
You want a Buffy reboot?
Yes?
Watch Vampire Diaries, the names are completely different but everything else is pretty much the same. If you haven't seen it you can check some articles about TVD copying BTVS.

I found two perfect videos that I wanted to share.
This is the first...
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WZz89PBE4hM"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WZz89PBE4hM[/ame]

This next video is short... but the most powerful. I mean sure, everything is copied but look at the acting! Sarah & David are top class.
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4771fuz0AsM"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4771fuz0AsM[/ame]

What do you think?

 

[thetopher]

Hmn...well I can't speak to the actual TVD plots. Aren't they based on a series of books? Were they written before or after Buffy? And how much does the series resemble the books?

But everything else, cimematography, lighting and scene placement seems to be very similar, only just not as good.
Also the two 'pretty boy' vampire love interests look so goddam generic- as does the girl. (Bella? Another Bella? Seriously.)

But it's the second video that made the difference in quality clear. The first scene was lame acting school nonsense. It was so cardboard I felt myself drifting off. The second...I got a lump in my throat. (Especially SMG, I can almost hear her heart breaking...🙁)

I've seen a bunch of 'relationship/drama' over the years (Dawson, One Tree Hill, The O.C- which I loathed with a fiery passion) and the shows are all the same. And I have to say, I usually hate all that mushy, soapy crap that makes up most of their plots. Sticking in two vampires doesn't make for a 'vampire' show.

But in Buffy I love it, because of the acting and all the other elements that manage to elevate it above 'teary conversation of the week' or whatever. The drama comes from the characters and that's what works about it.

TVD isn't even in the same league as Buffy, whoever made these video's shouldn't get so upset. In 20 yrs which one of them will be remembered as landmark television?
The reason that Buffy will be remembered isn't just because it was the first, it's because it was the best.

(And that goes for 'adult vampire show' like Tru Blood, which is also based on a series as books, and also isn't as well acted. It has the same good vamp/evil vamp love triangle thing going on. The main female character is a boring, generic 'special person' without any real merit...I could go on, but I'm starting to nod off. 🙂)

 

[Black Eye Guy]

I only watched less then half of that first video as it's way to long with stupid text in between each clip.

But I don't agree.

The first "copy" moment of that first video "I'm a vampire whats your excuse", is a terrible example. The line "I'm a ..., What's your excuse" can be found everywhere, as can a lot of those other moments. The fact that both shows have vampires just means the two get compared like that.

I bet you could find a lot of those moments in other works, or those moments in other shows/movies pre-buffy.

While I agree that the first season is very Twilight-crapesque the show looses that and changes away from that.
I also agree the main character isn't great, she gets a little better once she's turned into a vampire and the actress that plays her is awesome, she has played like 3 other characters on the show and each are very different which is quite cool to watch, but Elena is a bit annoying.

The show isn't a ground breaking series, but if thats your standard for a good show good luck watching most of TV. Ground breaking shows are rare, most of TV is just entertainment and TVD does entertainment very well.

The cast also aren't generic, yes they are all very pretty - it is CW show, but BtVS isn't exactly a troll hangout is it?

---------- Post added at 10:43 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:42 AM ----------

Also Julie Plec is a massive fan of Joss Whedon, so I wouldn't be surprised if a few of those moments are homages.

 

[Still a Scoobie]

I was going to post a thread like this but I knew I would be unable to contain my rage.

Hmm...well I can't speak to the actual TVD plots. Aren't they based on a series of books? Were they written before or after Buffy? And how much does the series resemble the books?

Yes, it is based on some books but anyone who's read them seems to agree they were pretty dire books and the series is lightyears ahead in terms of quality. As someone who's watched Buffy and occasionally has to sit through eps of tVD, and can see the definite downward trend between the two, I can only marvel at how these books ever got published. In fact, if they are that much worse than the series, I suspect they were created by a monkey/typewriter interface. (To answer the when question, I believe they came out around the time of the Buffy movie).

The series does owe more to Buffy than its own alleged basis, imo. But then, a lot of shows owe quite a bit to Buffy, and the modern wave of vampire fiction owes pretty much everything.

I've seen a bunch of 'relationship/drama' over the years (Dawson, One Tree Hill, The O.C- which I loathed with a fiery passion) and the shows are all the same. And I have to say, I usually hate all that mushy, soapy crap that makes up most of their plots. Sticking in two vampires doesn't make for a 'vampire' show.

But in Buffy I love it, because of the acting and all the other elements that manage to elevate it above 'teary conversation of the week' or whatever. The drama comes from the characters and that's what works about it.

TVD isn't even in the same league as Buffy, whoever made these video's shouldn't get so upset. In 20 yrs which one of them will be remembered as landmark television?
The reason that Buffy will be remembered isn't just because it was the first, it's because it was the best.

^^this is so true it should be the thing people have to place their hand on in court.

I only watched less then half of that first video as it's way to long with stupid text in between each clip.

But I don't agree.

The first "copy" moment of that first video "I'm a vampire whats your excuse", is a terrible example. The line "I'm a ..., What's your excuse" can be found everywhere, as can a lot of those other moments. The fact that both shows have vampires just means the two get compared like that.

I bet you could find a lot of those moments in other works, or those moments in other shows/movies pre-buffy.

This is true. I don't like tVD but you can't use this as a stick to beat them with. If every show has to never use a line that any other show used, there'd have been nothing new after the first couple of years of TV.

While I agree that the first season is very Twilight-crapesque the show looses that and changes away from that.
I also agree the main character isn't great, she gets a little better once she's turned into a vampire and the actress that plays her is awesome, she has played like 3 other characters on the show and each are very different which is quite cool to watch, but Elena is a bit annoying.

I agree up to a point. When Elena first became a vampire, she did become a bit easier to watch, but more recently that's gone away, every character is just so annoying. I don't hate Nina Dobrev's acting but there's not a huge amount of difference in the characters she has to alternate between in my opinion.

The show isn't a ground breaking series, but if thats your standard for a good show good luck watching most of TV. Ground breaking shows are rare, most of TV is just entertainment and TVD does entertainment very well.

I agree that ground-breaking shouldn't be the standard you look for but on the entertainment front I would tend to disagree. However, if it entertains you then fair enough. To each his own.

Also Julie Plec is a massive fan of Joss Whedon, so I wouldn't be surprised if a few of those moments are homages.

The question, though, is where does homage end and "rip-off" begin?

The little stuff like "I'm a vampire, what's your excuse" - its being a common phrase notwithstanding - is an homage of sorts. Bonny's dabbling in the darker magicks and getting corrupted and nearly ending the world? I'd say that's heading for the other end of the scale. The werewolf leaving his girlfriend and skipping town? Elena's brother's a "Hunter"?

Silas (I think that was his name) and his ability to look like anyone and his attempts to unleash Hell on Earth do sort of scream "The First" at me.

I'd never stretch an homage out over a whole plotline, despite the temptation when you're homaging something so awesome.

 

[thetopher]

I know that the cast of Buffy were all very pretty people (even 'nerds' like Alyson and Nick), but they could also act. From the evidence of TVD stars, they can't emote that well, they don't interact with each other half as well as the Buffy cast.

Also, doesn't this show have a spin-off called the 'Originals'? Set in New Orleans. I just caught part of an episode a few minutes ago- and its pretty dire. 🙁

I guess something has to be popular in the first place to get a spin-off, but still.

Also talked to my younger cousin in the States about TVD books- they're pretty awful apparently.

 

[Nix]

Well I love TVD and The Originals....and BTVS and Angel 😛

 

[TotallySpiked]

I'm a fan of both Buffy and TVD and I really don't see how TVD rips off Buffy. Yes, theyre both shows about vampires and both have a female lead, but every show is going to have love interests and every supernatural show is going to have witches. There's only so many different storylines shows can come up with.
Buffy is vastly better than TVD. For starters Buffy as a character is a lot better than Elena and a lot less annoying. Generally as a show, the writing is better and so are the characters. But this is just my opinion; a lot of people would probably think the opposite, it just depends on what you prefer.
A lot of people draw similarity between Stefan and Angel and Spike and Damon. Yeah, sure there are similarities with the whole good goes bad and bad goes good. But haven't we seen this in every single show?
I think people just have a tendency to compare these two shows because they're both about vampires. I also think they're targeted at completely different generations.

 

[Black Eye Guy]

I agree up to a point. When Elena first became a vampire, she did become a bit easier to watch, but more recently that's gone away, every character is just so annoying. I don't hate Nina Dobrev's acting but there's not a huge amount of difference in the characters she has to alternate between in my opinion.

Yeah actually I agree, Elena took a massive step backwards at the strt of the most recent season.
Given how different Katherine and Elena are though I don't see how someone could see different characters. They are completly different, I've liked the show a lot better since Katherine took over as lead, I haven't seen the most recent eps but I hope it stays that way for a while

The question, though, is where does homage end and "rip-off" begin?

The little stuff like "I'm a vampire, what's your excuse" - its being a common phrase notwithstanding - is an homage of sorts. Bonny's dabbling in the darker magicks and getting corrupted and nearly ending the world? I'd say that's heading for the other end of the scale. The werewolf leaving his girlfriend and skipping town? Elena's brother's a "Hunter"?

I wouldn't see the 'whats your excuse' line as a homage, as it's a common phrase, I'd see the close your eyes line as a homage, and the rest of the stuff is stretching.
The werewolf left his girlfriend becasue they are a couple on TV, and they never stay together, it's not like they thought that if they brought in a werewolf character he could never leave his girlfriend becasue then they'd be copying Buffy. Surely there is a werewolf character in TV/movies who's left his girlfriend before Buffy?
One character leaving another is common place on TV, and each of the couples on the show have broken up.

It's a sci-fi fantasy show focusing on Vampires, so it makes sense to bring in werewolves and Hunters, Buffy didn't invent those ideas, it copied them and repurposed them, same way TVD has.

I actually think TVD gave it's vampires and werewoves a better mythology then Buffy did. I dont know if you guys know the story behind the vampires and werewolves but they actually created a who big backstory for how and why vampires and werewoves came to exist, whereas in BtVS they just are.

Silas (I think that was his name) and his ability to look like anyone and his attempts to unleash Hell on Earth do sort of scream "The First" at me.

Didn't Charmed have demon that was 'the source of all evil' and could shapeshift and merge with other evil demons from like it's 3rd season on, well before The First came in with a developed plan. They may have had The First in an earlier episode, but it didn't have a plan till the last series, after Charmed had done that story.

Same goes for other stuff too, charmed did a story about piper thinking she was in a mental asylum before buffy did that story.

I'm not saying Charmed is a better/more creative series (far from it) but Buffy isn't the fountain of originality it gets credit for, it just reused similar ideas and did them better then other shows.

Also, doesn't this show have a spin-off called the 'Originals'? Set in New Orleans. I just caught part of an episode a few minutes ago- and its pretty dire. 🙁

Well that is the best way to judge a show, catch a couple of mins of a random episode.

People who have never seen Buffy and accidentally flick on a few mins of Beer Bad often wonder how Buffy never got an Emmy. 🙂

The Originals is a completely different show to TVD, similar to how Angels tone was more grown up and darker, The Originals is too.
The Originals did a disservice to TVD as it actually some of the best characters, and actors, and spun them off.
The Originals is a great show, probably better then TVD but like Angel was to Buffy, it will always just be the spin off.

I guess something has to be popular in the first place to get a spin-off, but still.

Well it's been on for 5 years now, renewed for another and is the CWs second most watched show usually, so it's probably popular enough.

 

[thetopher]

Well, it was more like twenty minutes, and yes, the acting was very bad, the characters has a complete lack of chemistry with each other. If this is the stronger series then TVD must be pretty poor. 🙂

But you're right, to judge a series properly on its own merits you have to invest time and effort in it. I'm glad vampire/teen romance fans have a show they can watch, but I'll stick with Buffy/Angel.

Anyway, it seems to me that people think its a rip-off because of the vampire/romance angle, which isn't exactly fair that it gets singled out because of this.

You want to see an actual blatent rip-off- watch 'Charmed' take off of 'Harry Potter' it's breath-taking, it really is.

 

[Blaze]

Meh, I couldn't care much for TVD, or Twilight. Just because the story includes a love triangle with vampires doesn't mean its anywhere near the league of Buffy, independently of whether it rips it off or not (I haven't seen much of TVD so I can't say for sure). All I know is that I tried watching TVD, and I thought that it was pretty bad. Honestly I tend not to like vampire shows very much, just goes to show how good BtVS is. Or maybe the reason I don't watch many vampire shows is because none can top my expectations set by BtVS.

The only thing that I hate about the shows being compared is that when I mention Buffy, I'll often get "oh that show that is like Twilight, ew", from people that have never seen BtVS, but associate it with other shows/movie that does the genre very poorly in comparison.

 

[Still a Scoobie]

Yeah actually I agree, Elena took a massive step backwards at the strt of the most recent season.

Given how different Katherine and Elena are though I don't see how someone could see different characters. They are completly different, I've liked the show a lot better since Katherine took over as lead, I haven't seen the most recent eps but I hope it stays that way for a while

If they were real people they'd be different, but there's something there - on the writing side, I think, because as I say, the acting there is not horrendous - that makes them feel quite samey to me. Just a personal opinion.

I wouldn't see the 'whats your excuse' line as a homage, as it's a common phrase, I'd see the close your eyes line as a homage, and the rest of the stuff is stretching.

No, I do agree that pointing out phrases like that is not a good way of comparing stuff, because those phrases appear everywhere, what I meant was it's stuff of that level that I would consider an homage, stuff that flashes past and has little or no impact on the show. A one-off character, something in the background of an episode that never has an effect on the story, a little crack in the fourth wall, these things are homages.

As for the similarities I mentioned (some of which were lazy ones for me to point out), I agree to a certain point that just because there is similarity doesn't mean there's any copying - or ripping off or whatever you want to call it - going on. However when there are so many similarities (including more I would mention if I'd remembered the details) all put together it's fingernails down the blackboard of my soul. It's about the feeling you get when you watch and personally, the feeling I get is: "Buffy was successful, so here's something sort of similar, now we will be successful".

It's not just tVD, either. I love both Castle and The Mentalist, and there are a lot of similarities between them that up until recently were OK, but as time's gone on they've started to feel lazy and the overlaps have started to drive me crazy, to the point that I'm starting to think I'm going to have to give one of them up.

Same goes for other stuff too, charmed did a story about piper thinking she was in a mental asylum before buffy did that story.

I'm not saying Charmed is a better/more creative series (far from it) but Buffy isn't the fountain of originality it gets credit for, it just reused similar ideas and did them better then other shows.

^ This is my beef with tVD, it's not the, shall we say overlapping, of certain elements, it's the fact that it adds nothing. When some shows redo stuff it's because there are only so many storylines that can actually be written but they manage to make it better or at least different (or they're sending up other shows), but when other shows do it, it feels like it's because they didn't know what else to do and/or they're struggling to differentiate themselves. To me, tVD falls into the second category. It's just my personal feeling from seeing the show and giving it a chance (more of a chance than I normally would, to be honest).

As I said before, to each his own. If you like it I'm not going to sit here and say you're wrong, but if it weren't for the fact that others in my house like it, I probably would have stopped watching a long, long time ago.

 

[Black Eye Guy]

Anyway, it seems to me that people think its a rip-off because of the vampire/romance angle, which isn't exactly fair that it gets singled out because of this.

Exactly, The show has that in common, as they do with almost all other shows out there, but becuase both are built around vampires, both get compared more then most.

^ This is my beef with tVD, it's not the, shall we say overlapping, of certain elements, it's the fact that it adds nothing. When some shows redo stuff it's because there are only so many storylines that can actually be written but they manage to make it better or at least different (or they're sending up other shows), but when other shows do it, it feels like it's because they didn't know what else to do and/or they're struggling to differentiate themselves. To me, tVD falls into the second category. It's just my personal feeling from seeing the show and giving it a chance (more of a chance than I normally would, to be honest).

I can see why you wouldn't like it.

I watched the pilot when it first started and absolutely hated it, like I thought it was the dumbest show ever, but then about a season and a half ago I decided to try again becasue it was being mentioned everywhere. I thought the first half of season 1 was terrible but got better. But by season 3 or so I loved it.

I think it added and built a much better vampire mythology then Buffy did. Buffy is a show about the slayer line and it's mythology, whereas TVD is about Vampires and werewolves, and it builed a really interesting mythology around the history of Vampires and Wolves, one that Buffy didn't build as it wasn't really about vampires and one Angel didn't need to build and the mythology of his show was his own past.

One of Buffys weakest elements is building the world around it, Both Buffy and Angel are contained stories, for the majority of the time there could only be one slayer, only one Vampire with a soul.
I LOVE those stories, but the world of BtVS always felt so much bigger and we never got to see it, TVD explores the world more.
I will forever think it's a crime that we haven't seen a BtVS spin off even completely unrelated to BtVS but based in the same world, the whole mythology it's built is fantastic, but for some reason Joss seems to think it needs Buffy to work.

TVD isn't my favourite show, wouldn't even be in my top 10, but it's enjoyable and I love it for the areas it grew on and added that Buffy didn't explore.

 

[Still a Scoobie]

You're right about the mythology of the demons and stuff. That is one thing that was missing from Buffy and the Vampire Diaries definitely does better with that.

 

[Evil Angelus 95]

Coming from someone who's read the books, and loved them, but then watched the show and disliked them, I hope I can at least bring something to the table. The books were published before Buffy started (Even before the movie came out I believe), and were pretty straightforward about things. The show, from what I've noticed, really does rip off Buffy a lot more than I think the writers would ever admit. I've heard this from a lot of people, but I can't say I've ever really gotten that far into the series to ever really find out any specific examples of things I haven't heard.

I think in one of the latest episodes (I don't really keep up with the show), one of the main vampire characters was locked in a crate and then sent to the bottom of the ocean? Anybody recognize that from a certain season of Angel?

 

[Fuffy Baith]

I am curious to find out about this better vampire mythology some of you agree with, but I do not want to watch the whole show to find out. I thought Buffy over the course of 7 seasons did a good job with the mythos, some times it subtle and in dropped lines but I thought it was clear. I don't think there was anything that I was curious to know more about, except maybe Draculas powers. Buffy didn't do werewolves very well, I'll give you that.

Even Nina in S5 AtS still leaves me with more questions than answers. There's a good episode in S2 of Once upon a Time that deals with human/werewolf transformation that I think can be applied to the Buffyverse. But if you guys say it's better it makes me curious to see the show because the one thing that I like about Buffy is they keep vampires separate from humans. They may have their human personalities but it's a demon on the inside and they are inherently evil. Unless you got a chip or a soul. Again I don't know what the mythos is on TVD, if they have souls or not but I like that Buffy makes a distinction and keeps vampires separated and evil.

I've only seen like the first 4 episodes of TVD so I don't know if it rips off Buffy or not it's just a little too Twilight dramaesque for my tastes and the actors are generic and not good with emotions. The thing I love about Buffy is yes there is drama, but there is also good action and comedy that makes it more fun.

 

[Still a Scoobie]

I think they did a better job of presenting the mythology, rather than their mythology is much better. They're more explicit in their examination of vamps, whereas Buffy, as you said, was more subtle. I prefer Buffy vamps really, because they fit more with my personal "beliefs" of what a vampire is about. This, though, is largely because the show doesn't say a lot about them, so it can't contradict my preconceptions.

 

[Black Eye Guy]

But if you guys say it's better it makes me curious to see the show because the one thing that I like about Buffy is they keep vampires separate from humans. They may have their human personalities but it's a demon on the inside and they are inherently evil. Unless you got a chip or a soul.

That is actually one of my big problems with the Buffy vampire mythology, and something they didn't do well. They set is up that Vampires and humans are completely separate by defining Angel/Angelus and setting up what having a soul does to vampire , but they throw it all out for Spike and don't explain why he's not that different, same with Harmony.

Vampires are explained in the show as starting as humans the last demon fed on before leaving the plane, but doesn't explain all the other demons that exist in BtVS and doesn't expand on that.

There's no explanation for why the hellmouth is a mouth like split in the earth in season 4, and a special seal in season 7, or where the hellmouth demon we saw in season 1 and 3 was in season 7. We can theorise the answer, but there isn't an official one

TVD shows you how vampires came to exist, It shows you how they were created, why they can't walk in daylight and why they crave blood.
They basically started cuz a mother cast an immortality spell on her 5 children, who are the 5 original vampires. All other vampires stem from them, those 5 originals basically can't be killed and any vampires they created after them are like a weaker version of them (normal vampires)
Vampires in TVD don't have souls they have humanity, which they can choose to turn on or off.

The whole vampire mythology gets explored in detail in the 3rd season (I think) when they bring in the original family, who later spin off into their own show.

Most shows/movies, BtVS included, are lazy in defining vampires cuz we know what they are, BtVS has no explanation for why they can't walk in daylight, why they're afraid of crosses or why they can't enter houses, all that stuff is just expected cuz of vampires from other vampire stories.

TVD gives all that stuff an alternate and new story, which I really enjoyed seeing unfold. One of my favourite things in Buffy was seeing the Slayer mythology explored, even when they brought in Kendra, it was a small thing, but it had massive implications for the mythology and it was one of the things that got me hooked. Love a mythology.

---------- Post added at 10:20 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:06 PM ----------

I think they did a better job of presenting the mythology, rather than their mythology is much better. They're more explicit in their examination of vamps, whereas Buffy, as you said, was more subtle. I prefer Buffy vamps really, because they fit more with my personal "beliefs" of what a vampire is about. This, though, is largely because the show doesn't say a lot about them, so it can't contradict my preconceptions.

Yes totally, it's not that TVD story of how vampires came to be is better or that it's the best possible explanation, it's just that I like that TVD took the time to give context to that mythology where BtVS didn't, it's an interesting area to cover in your mythology.

The funny thing is if you like Whedons verion of vampires better cuz they fit what with you know, it's cuz he ripped it off from another storyteller. Vampires not being able to enter homes isn't in all vampire folklore, he got to pick and choose from an existing array of vampire qualities to build his vampires, though the sorce is a lot older.

Same for werewolves, the 3 nights a month isn't standard werewolf mythology.

 

[Evil Angelus 95]

Spike's a fluke in the writing 😛 Jk, I mean no offense.

In all honesty, I think Spike is kinda like a anomaly. It happens in almost every species, and in many different walks of life, so why can't it happen to vampires?

 

[Fuffy Baith]

Ah ok, I get it. Yea knowing all those extra details would be cool, but I like Buffys explanation of the last demon biting a human better than a spell. I think in Earshot Angel says something about why vampires have no reflection and why you can't read their minds, but that's about the only quality that gets explained I think. I think that crosses and holy water affect the demon inside similar to like an exorcism. But what does the garlic have to do with anything? Since it's about a vampire slayer and not just vampires it doesn't have to explain it all but it would be cool just in a dropped line while the scoobies do research or something. The slayer mythos is interesting but I think it could have been explored a little bit more especially the watchers council. I have so many questions about them. I'm curious as to what TVD says about werewolves. Even with Oz, Nina and Veruca there is not a whole lot. There are tons of questions about it.

 

[Still a Scoobie]

The funny thing is if you like Whedons verion of vampires better cuz they fit what with you know, it's cuz he ripped it off from another storyteller. Vampires not being able to enter homes isn't in all vampire folklore, he got to pick and choose from an existing array of vampire qualities to build his vampires, though the sorce is a lot older.

Same for werewolves, the 3 nights a month isn't standard werewolf mythology.

I'm really not a fan of the way Joss does werewolves. I'm pretty sure the day either side of full moon was added so they wouldn't have to wait a month before discovering Oz was the werewolf.

As for the other, you could say Joss' vamp mythos was ripped off, or you could say mythical creatures are so prevalent in our stories that they're practically public domain. I'm not denying there's a lot of Buffy that comes from other shows/stories but I don't think a mythology is a thing that you can blame someone for copying, as it would be nigh impossible to invent an entirely original one. Having said that, I do applaud tVD's efforts in that direction, as their background stuff is fairly original.