The character that changed / evolved the most?

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evolved the most?

Who would you pick and even more important, why?

I am thinking about Willow or Spike, but I am unsure, and by the way, I am fully counting on you. 😉
 
Surely for change and the measurement of, it has to be Wesley. 🙂

Spike's character did evolve, out of his love for Buffy, but Wesley started out as this meek, comic relief character and morphed into a total badass, but he was still Wesley. He changed because of his surroundings and his experiences, not because of one singular person.
 
Sure, Wesley, I totally forgot him, because only rewatching Buffy and not Angel. 😉
 
I agree with Wes. I don't think anyone else really changed that much at all. They are all essentially the same people they started out as. Xander may be a very far distant second.
 
Have to mention Cordy. She went from vapid cheerleader to Champion, that's quite a change
 
P
Puffy
Good Point :)
Change and evolution are very different things imv.
Evolve means changing for the better- and not every character did that.

Willow evolved from lonely high school nerd to wicca powerhouse, good change because she conquerer her fears faults.
Xander matured a lot- evolution, from class clown tryin gto get attention to guy who's okay with being in the background, being what others need.
Faith psycho dark slayer mess to a more resilient, contemplative slayer.
Cordelia from shallow Sunnydale ditz to brave monster fighter.

There are some popular characters- like Giles, Wesley or Buffy, that don't evolve/get better, they just get changed by circumstance.
 
Most changed? Obviously the Mayor.

Greatest personality change? Wesley (to the extent that it is not that believable).

Best change? Cordelia.
 
Wes and Cordelia, although Cordelia's evolution wasn't handled the best. I think the fact that Wes and Cordy were Buffy characters who ended up on Angel, we see their change more. Because of their roles on Buffy as comic relief, and for the fact that Buffy is a lighter show than Angel, means they naturally will change more than say, Gunn or Fred.
Outwith that point, Wesley's character progression is outstanding and I don't think you could have pulled that off without Alexis Denisof's subtlety.
 
Iwearthecheese said:
There are some popular characters- like Giles, Wesley or Buffy, that don't evolve/get better, they just get changed by circumstance.
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You don't think Wesley evolves from the pretentious uber-nerd in Buffy? I guess we have a different view of getting better - or evolving. Imagine BTVS season 3 Wesley dealing with Illyria, and I'd say there's some evolution there.

1. Wesley
2. Spike
3. Willow
4. Fred
 
bespangeled said:
You don't think Wesley evolves from the pretentious uber-nerd in Buffy? I guess we have a different view of getting better - or evolving.
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I think he evolved very well until mid-S3 and then he turned into a grumpy self-rigeous jackass who refused to apologise for using and hurting people; Angel, Connor, Lilah, Fred.
And while he got better in Angel S5 it was too late to save his character- he didn't have to feel bad about stuff 'cause he signed on with Evil Inc and had his mind edited with/wiped by his puppet-master Boss.
You can't evolve if someone plays with your mind to do it.
 
Iwearthecheese said:
I think he evolved very well until mid-S3 and then he turned into a grumpy self-rigeous jackass who refused to apologise for using and hurting people; Angel, Connor, Lilah, Fred.
And while he got better in Angel S5 it was too late to save his character- he didn't have to feel bad about stuff 'cause he signed on with Evil Inc and had his mind edited with/wiped by his puppet-master Boss.
You can't evolve if someone plays with your mind to do it.
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Disagree here - I don't think I have to like the reasons behind every change - they all have some fairly horrible decisions. After all,Wesley kept a girl in a cage, but he never flayed a man alive.😀

More important -by that standard, since all of the Ats crew were manipulated by Jasmine, then no one on Ats evolved.
 
bespangeled said:
Disagree here - I don't think I have to like the reasons behind every change - they all have some fairly horrible decisions.
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That isn't really the distinction I'm making.
I don't have a problem with characters doing bad things exactly- that's drama- but evolving and becoming better as a character doesn't apply to Wesley imv- because his character goes off a cliff and never recovers.
Love for his characters comes first from a place of the guy who tries and fails, and then it's 'look, he's used two guns at the same time!' 🙄

bespangeled said:
After all,Wesley kept a girl in a cage, but he never flayed a man alive
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Wesley betrayed his best friend and condemned a complete innocent to a hell dimension. Killing a raping murderer doesn't really compare.

But hey, Willow evolved from her dark-root days and got all the better for it. Wesley just got stubbley, grumpy and self-righteous. Never apologise, never explain.

bespangeled said:
More important -by that standard, since all of the Ats crew were manipulated by Jasmine, then no one on Ats evolved.
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Only if you believe Skip and Jasmine and their lies.
Which I don't becasue S4 is a steaming pile. 😉

I believe Gunn- the game can't be fixed that much, not all the way.
 
Well, we really do see a lot of things differently.😉

Iwearthecheese said:
That isn't really the distinction I'm making.
I don't have a problem with characters doing bad things exactly- that's drama- but evolving and becoming better as a character doesn't apply to Wesley imv- because his character goes off a cliff and never recovers.
Love for his characters comes first from a place of the guy who tries and fails, and then it's 'look, he's used two guns at the same time!' 🙄
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You see a character who goes off a cliff and never recovers - I can see that view, particularly if early season Wesley was your guy. I see a character who was raised in hell, and who has vast doubts about his abilities - who really believes that he is doing what has to be done to save Angel, and to save Connor. He didn't set out to steal Connor and send him to a hell dimension. He goes through a lot of changes, including saving Angel at least twice, but he never returns to innocence until his memories are raped (as Cordelia put it) by W&H with Angel's approval.

Iwearthecheese said:
Wesley betrayed his best friend and condemned a complete innocent to a hell dimension. Killing a raping murderer doesn't really compare.

But hey, Willow evolved from her dark-root days and got all the better for it. Wesley just got stubbley, grumpy and self-righteous. Never apologise, never explain.
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That was kind of a joke - I was quoting Willow and Wesley. But Wesley also rescued Angel from his watery grave, gathered and dropped off information, gave Angel warnings of pending plans, and brought Faith in to make sure Angelus survived, so that he could be resouled. And, to be fair, Willow also tried to kill Dawn and Buffy, and destroy the world.

Iwearthecheese said:
Only if you believe Skip and Jasmine and their lies.
Which I don't becasue S4 is a steaming pile. 😉

I believe Gunn- the game can't be fixed that much, not all the way.
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Season 4 is a steaming pile - but if I'm gonna believe Sahjon, then i can't see why jasmine and Skip aren't credible. And, as it happened, the father did kill the son. So what Sahjon changed became a new prophecy.

It fits the theme of the show - Angel as a tool for the PTB, who screw him over - as a target for the SP, who screw him over. This is a show about free choice, and how much knowledge counts, or doesn't, to make the right choice. From the very beginning unseen forces have been pulling Angel's chain - and he's in the dark even with the family he gathers. So if the PTB have been involved, why couldn't a rogue PTB make a few changes to come down and save the world. Jasmine's intent was peace, bliss, no war, no hunger - the ultimate good.
 
Most of the characters changed, several of them drastically. But I think the only one that actually became a better person was Faith. She overcame her defensiveness and insecurities and inner pain to become mature, reasonable, and just an awesome person. I love her <3. Actually that's not true, Cordelia did became a better person. Buffy was still a good person, but she was more cold, tired and militant. Willow was still a good person, although I'm still not convinced she had gained wisdom or become a better person, certainly not the way Faith had. She just was kind of able to ignore the problems that she had. Wesley was a decent person but not better than he used to be. Spike was only better because he gained a soul. So Faith and Cordelia for the win! Though Faith's evolution was the most impressive😀
 
bespangeled said:
You see a character who goes off a cliff and never recovers - I can see that view, particularly if early season Wesley was your guy. I see a character who was raised in hell, and who has vast doubts about his abilities
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I think if Wesley doubteds his 'abilities' more, then lots of pain could've been avoided. The fact that he thinks he knows everything later on is why I dislike him so much.

bespangeled said:
But Wesley also rescued Angel from his watery grave
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And slapped away Angel's offer to apologise and come back the very next episode. Self-righteous.

bespangeled said:
gathered and dropped off information, gave Angel warnings of pending plans
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Whislt being in bed with W&H?
Yep, having some hot sex with Lilah is tearing him up inside. 😀

bespangeled said:
brought Faith in to make sure Angelus survived
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I'm not denying that Wesley was useful- few characters on either show are wastes of space- but he was more useful before when he was part of the group.

bespangeled said:
that he could be resouled. And, to be fair, Willow also tried to kill Dawn and Buffy, and destroy the world.
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Again, I'm not gonna play the 'which character did worse' game- that isn't the point.🙄
The point is that Willow recognised the damage she had done, felt bad about those she had hurt and changed/got better after- with help sure, but she got better- evolved.

Wesley did not get better or stronger, he just got 'cooler' or darker, the guy for whom 'the ends will always justify the means'.
He didn't learn from his mistakes or even attempt to make amends, he never even acknowledged them, he just went on about how everyone was a big meanie to him.

bespangeled said:
Season 4 is a steaming pile - but if I'm gonna believe Sahjon, then i can't see why jasmine and Skip aren't credible
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There is a difference between saying one thing is destiny- trying to manipulate it and failing because it was meant to be (Sahjahn still gets killed by Connor- THAT was the prophecy) and simply saying that 'oh, I manipulated everything ever'.

Jasmine is saying 'I am the writers, I am the reason that you've done everything thus far.' It's nonsense (or at the very least a pov, not the exact truth) spouted by the bad guy- you can't fix everything just so, otherwise Jasmine would've succeeded in her utopia vision.
I think Jasmine simply saw an opportunity and then took it. The rest was deception on her part.

bespangeled said:
It fits the theme of the show - Angel as a tool
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I agree with this. 😉
 
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