The character that changed / evolved the most?

[bespangeled]

I thought he went in to save Lilah?

Yeah, then found Connor was there, got Lilah out, and left her to go get the others and rescue Connor - who would have died without that rescue

I still don't think he cared about either of them besides a 'having some super-powered muscle to utilize' because he never showed any emotion even resembling warmth towards them.

He keeps saving their lives in order to have muscle to...well, save their lives again. Okay - odd hobby - can't see that it gets him anything except almost killed.

No, I never did- you were the first to bring in Willow's 'flaying' as a comparison to Wes's actions, not me. I never compared them. Your mistake I guess.

Really?🙄

Why did Wesley have to have warm feelings towards Faith? She brutally tortured him, one of the most despicable crimes of all - if Angel hadn't arrived in time, she would have burned him. Wes was being a Watcher - he wanted to save his friend and the world, he was focused on the mission. And Faith used to be a sick, filthy psycopath - and suddenly, she wasn't anymore.

Did Faith ever apologize - I forget. 😀

But I reject the narrative that he ever had her wellbeing in mind. She was a useful tool and that's all.

You really must have an incredibly low opinion of Faith - that she's nothing more than a tool, and doesn't realize it!🙁

She was never a psychopath though, she just hated herself and took that anger out on Buffy because of jealosy.

As well as the people she murdered - she took it out on them, too

If you don't see it fine, but lots of other people clearly do- which is why she's listed as one of the most improved/changed/evolved. 😉

Which list? This one? If that's the metric, the fact Wesley is on most lists means yours is a minority opinion. Not sure why that would matter, though. You see it the way you see it.

Holding grudges for past sins- when the person who commited them is actively trying to make amends- is pointless.

I see repeatedly saving lives - starting with Angel's - as making amends. YMMV - no way will we ever agree on this.

 

[Iwearthecheese]

I agree, but forgiving those we love/like it's easier...

I honestly don't think forgivness should be graded by how 'easy it is, but on how earned it is.
If a person is truly contrite and has changed for the better through their own efforts, then they should have a shot at forgiveness.

I don't really buy into 'this person deserves/this person does not' depending on what character you happen to favor- all of them that fit the criteria should get the same treatment.

Buffy had her mind set for "evil soulles thing". What she did to Spike was bad and ugly (the alley beating), but he could have fought back; he accepeted taking it all, as he accepted what she was giving him at the moment.

Buffy still knew that Spike loved her, and when it became obvious that he wasn't fight at all she still kept on viciously beating him. Doesn't make it okay imv.

Buffy can't be blamed for choosing insanity over reality - she was out of herself, she was sick.

Well, I see that... but she still made a choice. The cure was in her hand and she chose not to take it.
I'm sure Spike's poorly timed speech made the choice easier but its still on Buffy.

Mistakes we all do. Faith didn't make mistakes, she commited several serious crimes.

And by S7 so did a lot of other characters on Buffy; Andrew, Anya, Willow, Spike...

When Faith escaped prison to help Faith, Wes was focused on the mission; and he had (good) reasons to not care much about Faith.

I'm not even saying that he should care, I don't think Wesley cared about that many people in S4- as long as they were useful to him he would use them. He acted the same around Connor and he had good reasons for being nice to him- ruining his life for instance...

Giles did worst, when he looked for her asking to kill a human; at that point, he should know better.

Sadly I agree with you on this. Giles actions were not good.
 

He keeps saving their lives in order to have muscle to...well, save their lives again.

So it just means that he helps them stay alive because they are useful, nott hat he cares about them.
And again, when did Wesley save Faith's life?

Really?

Yes. Go and see where this little tangent started. You started it. No biggie but for accuracy's sake. 😉

You really must have an incredibly low opinion of Faith - that she's nothing more than a tool, and doesn't realize it!

I never said that's how I saw her, only that's my impression of how Wesley saw her (and probably how Faith felt actually...).
Wesley needed somebody to get Angel back- to save the world- and so he picked Faith and pushed her hard to 'go dark', even using their shared past to viciously goad and attack her.
But Faith picked a different path and so I admire her for that, not Wesley.

As well as the people she murdered - she took it out on them, too

And when did I say different?
Explaining motivation is in no way excusing behaviour. Faith behaved monstrously but she also improved greatly.

Which list? This one? If that's the metric, the fact Wesley is on most lists means yours is a minority opinion. Not sure why that would matter, though. You see it the way you see it.

Like I said before 'if you don't see it, that's fine'.
It seems like there's a lot of love for Wesley and a lot of hatred for Faith. Whatever, I'm used to being in the minority.

 

[thetopher]

I honestly don't think forgivness should be graded by how 'easy it is, but on how earned it is.
If a person is truly contrite and has changed for the better through their own efforts, then they should have a shot at forgiveness.

I agree but there does seem to be a different standard for some characters and Faith seems to be one of them. Apprently facing actual punishment for your crime over many years is deemed as 'nothing'.

Well, I see that... but she still made a choice. The cure was in her hand and she chose not to take it.

To be fair Buffy was under the influence of demon poison- she didn't choose to be stabbed and have her reality played with.

Wesley needed somebody to get Angel back- to save the world- and so he picked Faith and pushed her hard to 'go dark', even using their shared past to viciously goad and attack her.
But Faith picked a different path and so I admire her for that, not Wesley.

A bit harsh. I saw tenderness in the way Wesley was concerned for Faith after the Beast beat her very badly, but she shrugged it off. I think they have a great dynamic in their episodes together.

As for the 'going dark' bit- I think Wesley didn't mean what he said to Faith- I think he understood her a lot more about her now, how that darkness can take you to a place without you even realising it.
There is a mirroring between Faith/Mayor and Wesley/Lilah- finding belonging and comfort with somebody who is evil and has done bad things- but you don't care because they are all you have now.

And Faith's reaction- THAT was great. I think that the temptation/need to give into the darkness in yourself to find stength there was done much better here than in 'Get It Done' which had similar themes.

Like I said before 'if you don't see it, that's fine'.
It seems like there's a lot of love for Wesley and a lot of hatred for Faith. Whatever, I'm used to being in the minority.

There's a lot of Wesley love and a lot of Faith love. Just some haters too. I don't think you're in that much of a minority. 😉

 

[Mr Trick]

I'm actually not sure if I agree that Faith did change that much. Although she does go from being very evil, bad etc.. to hitting rock bottom and then working for the good side, does her actually personality change that much? She seems to act pretty semilar in S7 as she did in S3 its just that she's now working for the good guys.

 

[thetopher]

I'm actually not sure if I agree that Faith did change that much. Although she does go from being very evil, bad etc.. to hitting rock bottom and then working for the good side, does her actually personality change that much?

I think her personality did change; she goes from very reckless, loner with major trust issues to somebody who's more responsible and can work as part of a team. She leads instead of follows (when needed) but otherwise is content to stay on the sidelines without resentment. She wasn't like that before.
The only part that really remains is her somewhat easy going attitude, but even that's tempered by the time she gets out of jail.
To say that she had much less screen time than someone like Wesley or Spike she changed a hell of a lot.

 

[Snyder]

evolvement as in improvement? then Spike hands down. An unsouled evil vampire who willingly gets his soul back and then dies to save the world is basically unbeatable. Wesley, Buffy, Cordelia also evolved a lot. Gunn changed but didn't exactly improve. Same Fred. Willow and Xander grew up as all kids do so I don't see that as a change, neither an evolvement. Anya and Andrew did evolve but the process was so hurried I can't really feel it. Angel, Giles, Lorne are pretty much the same.

 

[Monkey Pants]

I'm actually not sure if I agree that Faith did change that much. Although she does go from being very evil, bad etc.. to hitting rock bottom and then working for the good side, does her actually personality change that much? She seems to act pretty semilar in S7 as she did in S3 its just that she's now working for the good guys.

To me, Faith changes a LOT, and seems almost like an entirely different person by season 7. In season 3 she was immature, reckless, flirtatious, and self destructive...by season 7 she seems a lot older, more mature, laid back, and just totally different. She can take control and be a leader. Even her voice is huskier 🙂. For me her personality changed the most out of any character except Wesley and maybe Cordelia.

 

[Mr Trick]

To me, Faith changes a LOT, and seems almost like an entirely different person by season 7. In season 3 she was immature, reckless, flirtatious, and self destructive...by season 7 she seems a lot older, more mature, laid back, and just totally different. She can take control and be a leader. Even her voice is huskier 🙂. For me her personality changed the most out of any character except Wesley and maybe Cordelia.

I was just thinking of the thing with Wood and when she takes the portentials out clubbing those sorts of things did seem like the old Faith, but no, mostly I can see the change.

1. Wesley
2. Willow
3. Spike
4. Faith

 

[GoSpuffy]

I was just thinking of the thing with Wood and when she takes the portentials out clubbing those sorts of things did seem like the old Faith, but no, mostly I can see the change.

1. Wesley
2. Willow
3. Spike
4. Faith

I like you're top 3 because there change was beyond what people normally go through but Faith was mostly just the change that comes from normal growing up. Willow became a witch and really grew. Wesley put his insecurities behind him and became much bolder and more confident. And Spike, well yeah, all different person in S7 than S2.

 

[Monkey Pants]

I like you're top 3 because there change was beyond what people normally go through but Faith was mostly just the change that comes from normal growing up. Willow became a witch and really grew. Wesley put his insecurities behind him and became much bolder and more confident. And Spike, well yeah, all different person in S7 than S2.

I don't think most people commit murder and go to prison...

 

[GoSpuffy]

I don't think most people commit murder and go to prison...

No, but people who go to prison often change. Faith's changes were normal for a human growing up and learning from experience. Most humans don't become witches. And most witches don't go crazy and try to end the world. Most nerds don't become uber confident demon killers. Most demons don't choose to get a soul and fall in love with a human. Faith never really changed to the same level as the others on that list.

 

[Monkey Pants]

No, but people who go to prison often change. Faith's changes were normal for a human growing up and learning from experience. Most humans don't become witches. And most witches don't go crazy and try to end the world. Most nerds don't become uber confident demon killers. Most demons don't choose to get a soul and fall in love with a human. Faith never really changed to the same level as the others on that list.

I think she did. There are a million reasons why. All of the stuff you listed that the other people went through is fictional, over the top stuff. And still, just by going to prison and disciplining herself she was able to change just as much as them, which is more impressive. In her episodes in season 4 of Angel, she seems just as different from her old self as Wesley does. They've pretty much completely reversed positions. That wouldn't be possible if she hadn't changed.

 

[RomanticSoul]

Wesley had the best character arc out of anyone. Doesn't mean good or bad but the writing for his arc can't be topped by any other character in either verse. Faith comes in second for me. Cordelia potentially could have had even more change if she hadn't been high-jacked by romance plot.

Worst character arcs I would let Buffy and Willow battle it out. Both were downhill developments for me.

 

[Mr Trick]

Wesley had the best character arc out of anyone. Doesn't mean good or bad but the writing for his arc can't be topped by any other character in either verse. Faith comes in second for me. Cordelia potentially could have had even more change if she hadn't been high-jacked by romance plot.

Worst character arcs I would let Buffy and Willow battle it out. Both were downhill developments for me.

Total disagree on Willow. One of the great things about her character is that she is so distinctive and retains that throughout yet we see subtle littles changes. Going from nervious nedy Willow, to loyal best friend Willow, to Vamp/Sexy and dangeous Willow to which Willow to confident Willow to addicted Willow/egomanic Willow is great a ride and Hannigan plays everyone with ease. I think the lack of change for Buffy can be related to her restricted role as the Slayer. Still think there's a fair amount of growth though. Couldn't see her being a mother figure back in S1.

 

[Monkey Pants]

Total disagree on Willow. One of the great things about her character is that she is so distinctive and retains that throughout yet we see subtle littles changes. Going from nervious nedy Willow, to loyal best friend Willow, to Vamp/Sexy and dangeous Willow to which Willow to confident Willow to addicted Willow/egomanic Willow is great a ride and Hannigan plays everyone with ease. I think the lack of change for Buffy can be related to her restricted role as the Slayer. Still think there's a fair amount of growth though. Couldn't see her being a mother figure back in S1.

They both did change, but I agree with @RomanticSoul , I fond them less likeable as time went on.

 

[bespangeled]

All of the stuff you listed that the other people went through is fictional, over the top stuff. And still, just by going to prison and disciplining herself she was able to change just as much as them, which is more impressive.

The show is fictional over the top stuff. Most people who go to prison can't break out whenever they want, and when they do break out it's not to save the world. Faith is a slayer - that's what makes her arc, the fact she could get out any time but didn't. And the fact that when she did it was to save the world, as well as when she didn't go back it was to save the world. Fictional - and over the top.

 

[RomanticSoul]

Total disagree on Willow. One of the great things about her character is that she is so distinctive and retains that throughout yet we see subtle littles changes. Going from nervious nedy Willow, to loyal best friend Willow, to Vamp/Sexy and dangeous Willow to which Willow to confident Willow to addicted Willow/egomanic Willow is great a ride and Hannigan plays everyone with ease.

And it's fine that we disagree. The thing I loved most about Willow was her intelligence. This was a girl who hacked into websites long before Buffy came along. To see her hold her former self in contempt as shown in the Restless dream includes her brainy side. By S7 Willow couldn't use a computer past google. And freaking Dawn had to translate Sumerian texts. The only growth Willow experienced was her arrogance which grew exponentially with her magical powers. And then she did things just to see if she could pull it off, no scruples, including raising the dead.

I think the lack of change for Buffy can be related to her restricted role as the Slayer. Still think there's a fair amount of growth though. Couldn't see her being a mother figure back in S1.

She was even less of a mother figure in later Seasons. First of all Buffy was neither emotionally nor mentally healthy enough to raise a child. Which is kind of proven as Dawn spends most of S6 screaming for attention while Buffy is off screwing a soulles demon. And Buffy harrassing the social worker who was just doing her job? Kind of enough proof that Buffy was unfit to raise Dawn.

 

[sparethetragic]

Overall evolution was probably Cordelia. I'm not sure there is a more prominent character growth/change. Hated her initially, but over time, she became one of my favorites.

Loved Wesley's evolution. I would say that he grew into being the person that he was. I feel that he was so used to being shunned and being the family disappointment (as referenced in S5, when his 'father' comes too visit) that he was all too accommodating to play that role. I feel that leaving the Watcher's Council (or rather, fired) and finding a place with Angel and co. really helped him break free from that strangle on his persona.

 

[NatRosenberg]

Best change within BTVS and AtS? Cordelia. (Then Faith.)
Most change within BTVS and AtS? Wesley. (Then Cordelia.)
Best change within only BTVS? Spike. (Then ???)
Most change within only BTVS? Spike. (Then Willow.)
Personal favorite with regards to change in BTVS? Spike.
Personal favorite with regards to change in AtS? Fred.