The Contrast of Bangel to Spuffy

[patriot1123]

I hope this is in the right place - I'm not looking to antagonize any Bangel shippers, but just want thoughts from fellow Spuffy shippers, so after a lot of thought I decided to place this here rather than BattleShip. Mods, if you think it should be moved, okay; but as I said, I'm not looking to start any arguments. 🙂

Anyway, we are slowly making our way through AtS, now in the early eps of season 3. We just watched "Fredless" -- and, once I finished ROTFLOL at Cordy's and Wesley's mock-up of Buffy and Angel in the opening scene, I realized that it sums exactly why I prefer Spuffy. The scene is pure genius - to see a show basically making fun of itself, and so well played by all the performers. But it also underscores the constant melodrama of Bangel, a quality that Spuffy does not suffer from. Cordy's gestures as "Buffy," and Wesley's priceless "Buffy, I love you so much I forgot to BROOD." The scene also underscores how superficial Bangel is. Angel even seems to approve of the act, which makes it even funnier.

Spuffy is deeper, more genuine, more complex, and far more enjoyable to watch.

Thoughts?

 

[wickedtiger86]

I just hardcore LOL'd because you capitalized brood in that quote.

I do agree to an extent though. Bangel can get a bit over the top with the drama and Spuffy is more grounded in RL.

I think that has a lot to do with the show though and how it was constructed. In the early seasons, everything was very dramatic and dark. And first love is usually a very intense feeling. And really what Buffy and Angel felt for each other, was the first real love either of them had felt. It can be overwhelming and the way it was done in the show reflects that.

Spuffy took place after Buffy was an adult and had lost the ideals and gleam of that first love. That jades how people look at any relationship following. Their physical relationship was also set during a season where life was the big bad. So a lot of what they went through was backing for that type of story. If that makes sense.

Because they so apply to real life, I really do enjoy watching them more than I enjoy watching Bangel. Not to say that I don't like Bangel, because I do. I just prefer the way that I can relate to Spuffy so much more. I love how long their story arc is and how much more time they have to develop.

Actually, now that I think about it, my first love, was a terrible experience. He didn't even come close to feeling the same for me. So I guess maybe that's why I can't get as into Bangel. I never had anything like that in my life.

The evolution of Spuffy and the way they end up in season seven is much closer to my personal experiences in life. So maybe that's it for me.

Well, now that I've gone all tangenty, I'll just say, that I agree with you. 🙂

 

[zobothehobo]

I always thought Bangel was very overdramatic. It's very overstated in some acts.. Spuffy is very understated, very quiet. If you aren't watching carefully, you're going to miss something HUGE. With Bangel, every gesture is grand. They're so BIG and EMOTIONAL and DRAMATIC where Spuffy is understated and more hidden. It's a thousand time more subtle (if not more). I do think that scene describes Bangel quite well and when I describe it to my mom I pretty much do that as a one man show.

 

[ticonderouga]

One of the things I see is that Spuffy is earned through every action of both characters, both Spike and Buffy earn the love of the other. Whereas Bangel just sort of happens, or to paraphrase Faith puts it in season 3, big love, big loss deal and move on.

 

[StarSlayer]

Ah, yes. The drama of Bangel, beautifully performed by the lovely Cordelia Chase and dashing Wesley Wyndam-Price. 🙂 I always laugh at that scene!

In fairness though, I do like some of the big Bangel moments, mainly in s1 and s2. Bangel represents this "forever" romance, so those moments work with how the relationship is portrayed. (But, don't get me started on "Amends"). Yet, I prefer the subtle Spuffy moments much much more. Spuffy represents an unexpected romance, which makes those subtle moments work perfectly.

 

[patriot1123]

Ah, yes. The drama of Bangel, beautifully performed by the lovely Cordelia Chase and dashing Wesley Wyndam-Price. 🙂 I always laugh at that scene!

In fairness though, I do like some of the big Bangel moments, mainly in s1 and s2. Bangel represents this "forever" romance, so those moments work with how the relationship is portrayed. (But, don't get me started on "Amends"). Yet, I prefer the subtle Spuffy moments much much more. Spuffy represents an unexpected romance, which makes those subtle moments work perfectly.

What's wrong with Amends? Setting aside Giles's incredible hotness when he faces Angel in his flat 🙂 the "dead by sunrise" scene is actually one of my favorite Bangel moments, though it is a bit dramatic. My other favorite Bangel moments are when he comes to Joyce's graveside in Forever and when he shows up to help defeat Caleb in Chosen and the ep right before it. Interestingly my favorite Bangel moments have big drama while my favorite Spuffy moments have sweet, loving, loyalty and depth of feeling.

 

[white avenger]

To me, the difference between the two relationships is that Angel was always trying to protect and shield Buffy from whatever harm might come her way. On the other hand, Spike wanted nothing more than to stand at her side or cover her back against anything that might come.

 

[zobothehobo]

What's wrong with Amends? Setting aside Giles's incredible hotness when he faces Angel in his flat 🙂 the "dead by sunrise" scene is actually one of my favorite Bangel moments, though it is a bit dramatic. My other favorite Bangel moments are when he comes to Joyce's graveside in Forever and when he shows up to help defeat Caleb in Chosen and the ep right before it. Interestingly my favorite Bangel moments have big drama while my favorite Spuffy moments have sweet, loving, loyalty and depth of feeling.

I hate Amends. It's so *puts on dramatic voices* "Buffy! I must die! I'm a horrible being! I've done so much bad! OH NO!!!!!!!" "ANGEL! I love you! You can't die! Because I love you!" "Oh but Buffy! I MUST!" "NO! You musn't!" Powers that be: "Oh no! We need Angel! Quick! Get the snow stuff!" *TADA! Miraculous snow with no sun (which isn't how snow works) that sticks to the ground even though the ground is like 70 degrees (which is not how snow works, I don't care how freaking cold it is all of the sudden, or how fast it's falling... that's not right)*

That's the episode in a nutshell to me.

 

[StarSlayer]

What's wrong with Amends? Setting aside Giles's incredible hotness when he faces Angel in his flat 🙂

Here's my problem with "Amends." We have the scene between Buffy and Angel, where Buffy is desperately pleading for Angel not to kill himself. She tells him to keep fighting and that if he gives up, it'll just prove he's a monster. Yet, even after everything Buffy says, Angel still feels like he's not worth saving. This scene showed me how wrong Buffy and Angel are for each other IMO. They don't bring out the best in each other, but rather the worst. To make matters worse, it's actually a very serious conversation that they have (despite the bad acting and melodramatics). Yet, it gets brushed off by a cheesefest. It starts to snow! OMG! It's a Christmas miracle! It's a sign from the Powers That Be or whoever that Angel is worth saving! He can make amends! And he can do it with Buffy! Awww, how sweet! 🙄

But, I get if others love that scene. I just don't, even after several re-watches. However, some of my favorite Bangel scenes are the clauddaugh ring scene (I'm Irish, so it's very sweet), the scene at the ice rink, the last scene in "Halloween," and the prom scene (except for the choice in music, lol). I need my Spuffy fix after that, lol! 🙂

 

[patriot1123]

I hate Amends. It's so *puts on dramatic voices* "Buffy! I must die! I'm a horrible being! I've done so much bad! OH NO!!!!!!!" "ANGEL! I love you! You can't die! Because I love you!" "Oh but Buffy! I MUST!" "NO! You musn't!" Powers that be: "Oh no! We need Angel! Quick! Get the snow stuff!" *TADA! Miraculous snow with no sun (which isn't how snow works) that sticks to the ground even though the ground is like 70 degrees (which is not how snow works, I don't care how freaking cold it is all of the sudden, or how fast it's falling... that's not right)*

That's the episode in a nutshell to me.

Fair enough, that makes sense. I haven't seen the episode since my Spuffy kicked in, and maybe I'll feel differently about it next time.

Well, except for the exceptional hotness of Giles. ("And the funny keeps on coming.") I don't think that's going to change on rewatch. 🙂 (You best not respond. I know you're not a Giles fan. 🙂 )

 

[Marisa]

I think the contrast was pretty dead on and it is one of the reasons why I don't like Bangel as much as Spuffy. To me the over-dramatic nature of the relationship doesn't display love to me but force. I also just don't really believe it I feel when it is that in your face for that long it just doesn't come across right and LOL that is actually one of my favorite scenes with Cordy/Wesley.

 

[Gum Gnome33]

This scene showed me how wrong Buffy and Angel are for each other IMO. They don't bring out the best in each other, but rather the worst.

It's funny; I also think this is the exact moment when I started to realize that these two weren't right for each other. And as I've stated before, I started out as a Bangel because it was Buffy's first love and I wanted it to work for her. But after this scene--after watching a woman beg the "man" she loves not to kill himself, only to find that the "man" selfishly refuses to listen to her and, furthermore, keeps insisting that he's a terrible monster all the while, (geez, self-fulfilling prophecy, anyone?)* I was completely convinced that these two were not good for each other. It went beyond immaturity, or "forbidden love"; it was just not working.

* Woman: "I want to be with you!"
Man: "You can't! I'm a terrible terrible person! I've done so many terrible things."
Woman: (cries) "Please! I'm begging you! You're breaking my heart! Stop doing this 'terrible thing' to me!"
Man: "No, I'm terrible!" (shakes her violently). "See?! I'm so terrible! I'm really terrible."

*Rolls eyes*

And the truth is, I really like Angel. And I understand the dramatic purpose of this scene. Angel feels he can no longer atone; that he should die instead. But it's really taken to the extreme, and makes his character appear to have, well...no character.

 

[KellGreen]

I agree that a lot of it stems from whether you view love in realistic terms or as a fairy tale. Additionally, I just don't see any real relationship with Bangel: he's mysterious, she finds out he's a vamp, she kinda crushes on him, then he's taken by Spike & Dru and then they start making out after she rescues him. Not much progression there beyond what is represented by most high school relationships. I liked it when it first aired, but, being an adult, i really felt more pulled to Spuffy. Also, while many Bangels and others cringe at the AR (which is such a poorly written plot device IMO), when we see when Angel first saw Buffy and is falling for her right there it makes me sick. It's all due to personal experiences: I find adult men starting relationships with teens to be infuriating, disgusting and pathetic...and all too frequent in my days in high school and beyond. Moving past that, though, they just don't bring out the best in each other: they amplify each other's insecurities and weaknesses well, though. Part of it just the dynamics, and I don't see "true love" in an unequivocal relationship. He treats her like a child way too often to me, and how he makes decisions regarding her and their relationship many times i find to be condescending and demeaning to Buffy. Also, I don't believe in true love and while love at first sight does on occasion occur, it doesn't often last. I know Bangels see it as an instant, effortless love that "just is," but i see nothing but pain and emotional exhaustion. I think that's because my ex is a drama queen almost as much as Angel is. Everything is so "epic" that i find it tiring just to watch. Again, though, it's all about POV related to personality and experiences. I liked Bangel the first time through, before Spuffy of course...but it just made me cry. Aside from the prom, everything always seemed too doomed and sad and like we and Buffy were just waiting for the next thing to tear them apart, end their chances forever or just emotionally damage her irrevocably. I thought that was normal when i was younger, but now i just find a relationship like that to be a sign of emotional immaturity. Spuffy was organic and evolved over time. To some they just tear each other down, but really, the challenges they bring to each other makes them stronger. I feel pulled by Spike's ability to love, and most importantly, his unconditional love for Buffy. She never feels insecure around him and only once can i recall her feeling jealous (aside from Entropy...when Faith and Spike are talking in the basement Buffy definitely seems a bit jealous). They not only journey through life together in so many different ways, they also push and pull the other to where they need to be. They offer each other what no one else can and as equals it makes their relationship that much more real to me.

Sorry for rambling so much...I just find that writing like this helps me sort out my thoughts better.

 

[caritas08]

To me, the main difference is there is so much humanity in Spike's vampire self. Angel and Angelus have a clear cut line between the two so it was easier for Buffy to fall in love with Angel and to forgive him for Angelus' actions. I mean Angel and Angelus are two different characters entirely.

The line between William/Spike the Vampire is so thin that it was very confusing for Buffy to allow herself to love him and tell where the human began and the demon ended. For whatever reason, the humanity that Spike retained when he was turned into a vampire is something that Buffy (and the viewers) have never encountered before.

 

[ticonderouga]

Spike's first act as a vampire was one of love and concern for his mother, he sires her in order to save her from tuberculosis, and only kills her after she becomes a vampire and becomes very cruel.

Angel's first act is to kill his little sister, arguably the only person he really seems to care about until Buffy comes along. Then Angel gets his soul, and essentially mope for over a hundred years before he truly begins to seek redemption, and change. He does so only after Whistler convinces him to and he sees Buffy. The changes he goes through in order to become someone Buffy can love takes a very long time and a lot of outside help

All it really took for Spike was one short speech from Buffy about not holding back.

 

[Chosen Enemy]

The idea of Bangel: the tragic love, two lovers who can't be together, is both beautiful and parodical (is this a word?!) On one hand, I think it's a story that can attract people (even though not the most original one, because it's been done by the most famous love story "Romeo and Juliet"), it's interesting. But on the other hand, I think it's not a story to keep interest for that long. I mean, how long can you go with the tragic love story of "we can't be together, becaues..."? It gets sick. That's why in season 3 of Buffy, I couldn't stand Bangel anymore. It became annoying. And as much as I love it in seasons 1-2, later on it became laughable. It wasn't fun anymore. Then I moved to Spuffy, which doesn't have much to do with me being a Bangel back then, just that I saw how beautiful and intereting for the long run Spuffy was.

 

[sisterofmercy]

Although I am a Spuffy, Amends is one of my favourite episodes for some reason. It's cheesy and cliche and stupid (we never do get clarification whether it was the PTB that saved him and why they didn't intervene at any other point), but it always leaves me with a warm fuzzy feeling inside.

The contrast between Bangel and Spuffy is extreme though. The former is the very definition of young love- it's passionate, innocent and overly dramatic. The latter is something more subtle, beautiful and tender, where instead of one of them protecting the other they work together as a team and become true partners, rather than boyfriend and girlfriend. It's the kind of love that people aim for as it's stronger and more complex than a childhood obsession.

 

[the pack]

What a topic for my first post. I hope I don't get anyone twisted because when it comes to Buffy it's all good. First I often wonder how your view changes depending on how and when you came to watch Buffy. I pretty much started watching Buffy during season one. Although I won't claim to have watched every episode live. I certainly missed my fair share and often had to catch up with reruns. But for the most part I was a steady watcher (no pun intended) since season 3. For me Spuffy was hard to accept. It seemed Buffy's character had been taken to horrific lows at the time Spuffy came about. Sometimes I wonder if some view the two relationships unconsciously based upon who they would rather date. One thing I will suggest however is Bangel seems to be out of Buffy's control. Whereas Spuffy seems to be within her control.

 

[StarSlayer]

What a topic for my first post. I hope I don't get anyone twisted because when it comes to Buffy it's all good. First I often wonder how your view changes depending on how and when you came to watch Buffy. I pretty much started watching Buffy during season one. Although I won't claim to have watched every episode live. I certainly missed my fair share and often had to catch up with reruns. But for the most part I was a steady watcher (no pun intended) since season 3. For me Spuffy was hard to accept. It seemed Buffy's character had been taken to horrific lows at the time Spuffy came about. Sometimes I wonder if some view the two relationships unconsciously based upon who they would rather date. One thing I will suggest however is Bangel seems to be out of Buffy's control. Whereas Spuffy seems to be within her control.

First, welcome to the BB!!! 😀

For me, I started watching Buffy last summer, beginning with season 1. I didn't jump around during my viewing either. I watched each episode, each season, in chronological order. Based on my viewing experience, I did like Bangel in seasons 1 and 2. I thought Buffy and Angel were a great romantic pairing, especially for a first love. It had nothing to do with me personally wanting to date someone like Angel. In fact, I don't want to date someone like Angel, at least the one we saw in BtVS (I like the Angel we see in AtS much better). He's way too broody for my taste. I disliked Bangel before I ever fell in love with Spuffy.

I grew to love Spuffy as I watched season 5, season 6 (even with my doubts at times), and especially in season 7. It wasn't because I wanted to date someone like Spike (although s7 Spike has qualities that I truly admire and would like to see in a partner), but because Buffy and Spike are a perfect match for each other IMO.

 

[KellGreen]

Izobothehobo agrees: Same about the no real relationship thing
Miss Kitty agrees:
Ms.Trick agrees: Post of the year! I agree with every single thing you said.
Gum Gnome33 agrees: Um...when did you break into my home and literally steal the thoughts out of my brain?! I thought I wrote this for a second.

I firmily believe that Spuffy is an existential, shared consiousness...much like a Heavenly dimension we all inhabit together😛