I agree. While it's sad to see Buffy in this situation, especially coming from her friends, I think the season was building up to this moment.
The episode "Empty Spaces" pisses me off...
- Thread starter wehappyfew
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I agree. While it's sad to see Buffy in this situation, especially coming from her friends, I think the season was building up to this moment.
I agree, the Scoobies had seperate lives in season 7, there was an overall feeling of seperateness amongst that group. They were together in the fight but ultimately set apart.In a way I feel like this was the ending to conversation started by the Scoobies in 'Dead Man's Party'. WA has said everything that wanted to say already so I won't go indepth into why I thought it all went so badly because he has already done it but I think the root of the truth in this situation is the breakdown of the Scoobies relationship and their inability to communicate and work together cohesively.
United we Stand, Diveded we Fall.
white avenger
white avenger
If you think about it, the entire SERIES was building up to this moment. Remember what Spike said? The Slayer fights alone. When we first see Buffy in the premier, that was exactly what she was doing. The Scoobies, Angel, a Watcher who actually took a hand in the fight, those were all to come. Originally, the Slayer fought alone. Gradually, over the next 7 years, we see Buffy becoming the leader of a team, first just as research personnel, but later as full fledged, effective combat troops, friends and allies who she begins to trust and depend on. This episode sees the end of that. Once more, the Slayer had to fight alone.r Ganted, there was moral support from Spike, but when she faced Caleb, there was only the two of them. Even later, in their second confrontation, aside from a single punch from Angel at a critical moment, it was something that she "had to do alone."
"Buffy The Vampire Slayer" from Season 1 through Season 7 is a complete cycle, just like the First Evil told Spike. "We're going back to the beginning." And that's what almost got Buffy defeated and killed. She had become so dependant on her troops that she completely forgot the Buffyverse equivalent of "Star Trek's" Prime Directive. The Slayer is the One. The One ultimately fights alone.
The end of Season 7, the end of the Buffyverse as we knew it, broke that cycle. The Slayer no longer had to fight alone. She had, not just allies, but others of her own kind, others to share the fight. But the cycle, just like the First Evil, may be subdued for a time, but can never be truly defeated.
It reasserts itself in the time and person of Malaka Fray.
Don't hurt me but I actually agree with them going against Buffy.: erm :
Once Buffy's mum dies in the body, I think Buffy has been on some sort of suicide mission. She distances herself from her friends. I don't believe this "the slayer fights alone" rubbish, Buffy is very lucky. Buffy has friends and family to support her, none of the other slayers or potentials have had that. Yet she gradually, throughout the entire series turns her back on everyone but Spike.
I think Buffy does make some crappy decisions throughout the show. A full scale attack after so many being killed from the first one, was a stupid idea. She should have known that stealth was the best bet from the start.
I think the others needed to gang up on Buffy because she does think she is better than them. As Anya points out, she isn't, shes just lucky because she was chosen. The others don't have to be there, she does, they are there through choice. I hate the fact that she thinks she is better than them, it actually makes Buffy my least favourite Buffy character in seasons 5,6 and 7.
I think in season 7, probably because she is now used to Giles not being about, she is unable to listen to others opinions and strategies, except Spikes. All the Scoobies are slayers its just Buffy is the only one with the extra power. Its just a shame that Buffy doesn't respect or notice this about her friends.
Should I duck now? :smiliehom
SpikesAngel
Townie
I actually, kind of understand you. When I first watched Buffy I loved the show! I just didn't like her... She does kind of think she's better than everyone and it's annoying. Not in the earlier seasons but later, yeah. I was kind of impressed that Riley told her that she was self-involved ect.
Anyway, now that I've watched it again and again, I have to say I like her more with every time I watch it. Right now, I'm almost always on her side when she fights with somebody. Weird...
As for the episode Empty Spaces, even when I watched it for the first time, I couldn't believe that they actually did that. Dawn was just unbelievable and Willow... I can't believe that she didn't help Buffy. Faith, on the other hand, seemed unusual nice in this episode.
But if they had never thrown her out, there never would have been the cutest Spuffy scene ever and that would've been a shame.
What annoys me the most is that Buffy has an excellent point. The bad guys goes where the power is, so why are they at that vineyard?
There just must be something there. But no one thinks about it for one second.
I can understand that they hesitate to do a full front attack. I didn't work that well the last time after all. But Buffy are willing to talk strategy.
It's just that it seems that they all already has decided to throw her out. No one was interested in what she had to say.
Anya might be the worst for me actually.
Her case doesn't make sense to me. Buffy is better than them because she is the choosen one. That makes her automatically the leader. Not luckier.
And saying that she didn't earn it or work for it is just ludicrous. That is exactly was Buffy has done for the past 7 years.
Something that Faith certainly hasn't done.
/SK
There just must be something there. But no one thinks about it for one second.
I can understand that they hesitate to do a full front attack. I didn't work that well the last time after all. But Buffy are willing to talk strategy.
It's just that it seems that they all already has decided to throw her out. No one was interested in what she had to say.
Anya might be the worst for me actually.
Her case doesn't make sense to me. Buffy is better than them because she is the choosen one. That makes her automatically the leader. Not luckier.
And saying that she didn't earn it or work for it is just ludicrous. That is exactly was Buffy has done for the past 7 years.
Something that Faith certainly hasn't done.
/SK
E
EveryNiteISaveU
if anya doesnt like it then why is she even there?
I agree. But her plan isn't that good. Buffy was able to steal the scythe because the First, Caleb and their troop were busy setting up Faith and the potentials, so Buffy was able to sneak in unnoticed. I think if Buffy was willing to listen to a suggestion or a plan from the others, no one was going to be kicked out of the house.
I disagree. Obviously, they were all willing to listen to Buffy, they just didn't agree with her plan. In their last attack, everybody was actually against Buffy's plan, but they blindly followed her and it ended with a mess. They don't want another mess, so they argued their point across.
But she was willing to discuss a plan.
Buffy: Look, I'm willing to talk strategy, OK, I'll hear suggestions on how to break this down, but this is the plan. We have to be together on this or we will fail again.
Her basic plan was just to visit the vineyard again and find out why Caleb hanged there of all places. The details was up for discussion. But no one wasn't even willing to do that.
/SK
She was willing to discuss finer points of the plan, not plan itself. Also her reasoning to go back to there were stupid as well. It turned out to be right course of action, but as someone said right actions for wrong reasons does not mean the person was right.
To be honest i hate that episode a lot. It is like writers made decision of separating Buffy from others and failed to come up with better way. I would not say anyone in that house were acceptable, that includes both Buffy and Anya. In fact Anya is my favorite char and Buffy might have deserved a speech, but not that utter nonsense she said. I think that is one of two times i am really disappointed about her, altough given entire episode BS i am not going to let it bother me.
Spike and Andrew were only ones that were spared only because they were not there. Lucky them, I so wish Giles had sent Anya instead Andrew, but oh well.
To be honest i hate that episode a lot. It is like writers made decision of separating Buffy from others and failed to come up with better way. I would not say anyone in that house were acceptable, that includes both Buffy and Anya. In fact Anya is my favorite char and Buffy might have deserved a speech, but not that utter nonsense she said. I think that is one of two times i am really disappointed about her, altough given entire episode BS i am not going to let it bother me.
Spike and Andrew were only ones that were spared only because they were not there. Lucky them, I so wish Giles had sent Anya instead Andrew, but oh well.
But right after that:
GILES
We are clearly demonstrating that we are not together on this!
BUFFY
(commandingly) Which is why you have to fall in line!
I wish Xander and Willow were still in the hospital, because even if they didn't agree with Buffy, I don't think they'll stand by and watch her leave. That's pretty much a badly written episode.
True, thats whats annoys me.
That they don't understand that Buffy has a good point. I don't think her reasoning to go back was stupid.
It's not that her plan isn't good enough. She doesn't have more of a plan than that there is something important in that vineyard. The exact plan is still to discuss.
They just don't want to go back there and don't care or listen to what she has to say imho.
I agree that Buffy doesn't handle it very good though. Going for the "fall in line" approach was hardly the right thing to do at that moment.
The whole thing kinda works for me anyway. They where all still shaken up and scared from that last time. Xander was badly hurt etc.
Going back was the last thing they wanted do so they just refused to listen to it and Buffy wasn't understanding enough so it all got out of hand.
It still annoys me though and to see Giles not backing up his slayer always sadden me...
/SK
Skanky Vamp
Sniffin' the Slayer
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His Slayer? Buffy pointed out in more than one occasion that she was not his slayer; that she did not want nor need his 'backing up' or guidance. Buffy was not 'his slayer' after Lies My Parents Told Me and his correct approach to dealing with Spike.
wehappyfew
Animus
Okay so wrong word choice (same as Buffy's problem).
But Giles is Buffy's dad...that's been established.
And he's taught her to see the big picture and all that crap....
Spike said it perfectly when he called them "sad." And called Giles "Rupert"
Buffy's surpassed the a-h.
I think Buffy should have arranged a meeting with the Scoobies instead of talking about her plan in front of everybody else. Things would have gone smoother if the number of people discussing it is limited, as well as them being more experienced.
The plan was to march into there and grab whatever supposed to be there. It's hard for them to do that when they're not sure if there was actually something there. They need to make sure first and put on a well structured plan.
Knowing now that Buffy was right about going in makes everyone want to be on her side after the fact while watching this, and I agree I am on her side 100 percent, but they did have a lot of good points at the time. But in no way does that justice driving her out of the house. Faith seemed to be the only one who wasn't completely different. Giles was being a dumb ass.. because Buffy wouldn't listen to him anymore, Wood didn't like her choices with Spike, Willow..wtf..Xander eh I can see why he'd be upset with her after loosing his eye... but he did give that heartwarming speech ... an episode ago? Come on. Totally would never let her leave like that. And don't get me started on Dawn. She acted in character, a brat. Yelling at romawhatever her name was proved nothing against the fact. Kicking her sister out of her sisters house, this is the blobby ball of energy who was made out of buffy and shouldn't even be alive or exist in the first place, calling it her house. Please. Anyone who makes Buffy cry like that doesn't deserve to live! Except Anya, imo and that obviously didn't happen because they kill her at the end *cries* But Anya had a point even though Buffy wasn't "Lucky" as she said it, she did get chosen by chance and didn't have to work for it... other than all the times she's saved the world... which was a lot.. Anyways I digress. Eww Dawn! Bad bad bad little blobby energy ball. *pops away*
Revolver
Sir Douche
Probably one of the worst written scenes of the series. I can understand (though still hate) the potentials because they were new to fighting evil and not quite ready to face it, but the Scoobies? They've faced a hell god, seen beloved friends die in the fight against evil, and know all that Buffy has done and sacrificed for them. Why would they behave as they did in the face of Caleb and The First Evil (which frankly, aren't even among the scariest villians the show trotted out)? As someone else said, I can kind of understand how Xander reacted. He did just lose his eye, but at the same time, he's shown great bravery in the past for someone with no super powers and I don't think it was in character for him to let Buffy leave. The writing for Willow was even worse, because she was harsher than Xander and really there was no reason for her to be. Was her entire motivation to let her best friend get kicked out of her own home the fact that her spoiled brat girlfriend wanted Buffy out? I can sort of see why Giles wouldn't be on her side. They'd pretty much fallen out by this point, though that doesn't make his actions any less wrong (especially since he's always been about the greater good and how can sending away one of their strongest fighters be in their best interest?). Faith really wasn't so bad. Anya was out of line, but this isn't necessarily out of character for her. She's a blunt person, and on occasion a little cowardly (Graduation). Dawn is the absolute worst. I don't even think I need to explain that.
Kana
Soulless human
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I wrote this either on another forum. I maybe repeating points but...
I actually see everyone's point of view and how their actions are understandable.
Now lets look at all the characters and their reactions.
Willow and Xander
We have to understand this isn't the first time Willow has questioned Buffy's actions but never has the consequence been so grave. Xander in the earlier episode was talking about trusting Buffy because she's earned it and I believe this is true.Buffy greatest strengths has been her instinct and compassion, yet she leads them to die in Dirty Girls. Xander is really struggling to see Buffy's point because she's just contradicted what he said with her actions and wants to go again. The reason Buffy has been trusted this far because she's always got them through safely so they never had any reason to doubt her but now she wants to lead them to a place where some of them were killed and poor Xander was badly hurt ( a miracle he wasn't killed actually) and it surprises me that people can't see their perspective.
Giles
As for Giles, he was doubting Buffy's judgment anyway. Although I don't agree with his duplicity in LMPTM, it doesn't mean that he was necessarily in the wrong. The whole Spike thing was a judgement call and while it was Buffy's call, it doesn't make it the right call. If Spike had been left alone and the trigger was still activated then I'd agree with Wood (his revenge was actually arguabley irrelevent to the utilitarian argument when you analyse it logically) that Spike could have been a threat. Giles mistrust of Buffy's judgement is not coming out of the blue and lest we forget Glory/Ben.
Dawn
Dawn is surprising I think. Also think about CWDP. FE said Buffy wont choose you. Also Buffy said that if she had to choose between the world and Dawn, she'd choose the world in LMPTM. While Dawn didn't hear this, Buffy's attitude in terms of what wanting to take the offensive after people have been hurt and killed wouldn't allay Dawn's fears that she may put herself and others in danger. She's worried but she's not angry with Buffy because she defends her to Rona. She and Faith are perhaps the most sympathetic to Buffy and have proven it's not jealousy but circumstances which are motivating their actions. I mention jealousy because both of them have been jealous of Buffy at some point.
In conclusion, this was an extreme circumstance and I think the First was the main reason behind it: Divide and conquer and for a while it worked. Look at all the factors, secret messages, Spike, questions of authority and leadership and of course Eve!! Of course these concepts don't arise in a vacuum but I still believe the main reason is the mistrust of Buffy's ability to get them through this alive rather than personal issues.
Like I said, the FE were actually alot more clever than I gave them credit for originally and I think they are the main reason for the 'mutiny'. They used Buffy's greatest skill, her intuition, against her which made people wonder if they can trust her judgement which previously they relied on without any price really being paid. It was actually a pretty decent plan because on the one hand Buffy may have decided that it wasn't a good idea to go back, FE win again but Buffy's instinct were right but people were scared to trust Buffy's decision to go in again when the last time they got nothing but death and injury. Also the Spike plan was pretty good because if they had killed Spike then they would have lost one of their strongest warriors but on the other hand if Buffy protects him, which she was willing to do then considering that she's made dubious decisions regarding Spike before personally, then there's a chance that could be clouding her judgement in terms of what to do with him. On the third hand (lol) if nothing was done then Wood could have been right and Spike could have been their undoing in this battle.
I also went on to say (much like others have said) that I don't see it as a betrayal but as reaction to an extreme circumstance. Someone also commented on the fact that while the Scoobies behaviour was odd in the ep, Buffy's behaviour was becoming increasingly 'hard' that Season. I see it as a girl who was caught within virtually irreconcilable forces compelling her cut herself off from the one of main qualities that made her a good slayer in the past, one of the main reasons she's still alive today: her connection with her friends. Aside from her instincts, which is her other main quality, as I've said before, it was this reason the Scoobies followed her as long as they did.
I actually see everyone's point of view and how their actions are understandable.
Now lets look at all the characters and their reactions.
Willow and Xander
We have to understand this isn't the first time Willow has questioned Buffy's actions but never has the consequence been so grave. Xander in the earlier episode was talking about trusting Buffy because she's earned it and I believe this is true.Buffy greatest strengths has been her instinct and compassion, yet she leads them to die in Dirty Girls. Xander is really struggling to see Buffy's point because she's just contradicted what he said with her actions and wants to go again. The reason Buffy has been trusted this far because she's always got them through safely so they never had any reason to doubt her but now she wants to lead them to a place where some of them were killed and poor Xander was badly hurt ( a miracle he wasn't killed actually) and it surprises me that people can't see their perspective.
Giles
As for Giles, he was doubting Buffy's judgment anyway. Although I don't agree with his duplicity in LMPTM, it doesn't mean that he was necessarily in the wrong. The whole Spike thing was a judgement call and while it was Buffy's call, it doesn't make it the right call. If Spike had been left alone and the trigger was still activated then I'd agree with Wood (his revenge was actually arguabley irrelevent to the utilitarian argument when you analyse it logically) that Spike could have been a threat. Giles mistrust of Buffy's judgement is not coming out of the blue and lest we forget Glory/Ben.
Dawn
Dawn is surprising I think. Also think about CWDP. FE said Buffy wont choose you. Also Buffy said that if she had to choose between the world and Dawn, she'd choose the world in LMPTM. While Dawn didn't hear this, Buffy's attitude in terms of what wanting to take the offensive after people have been hurt and killed wouldn't allay Dawn's fears that she may put herself and others in danger. She's worried but she's not angry with Buffy because she defends her to Rona. She and Faith are perhaps the most sympathetic to Buffy and have proven it's not jealousy but circumstances which are motivating their actions. I mention jealousy because both of them have been jealous of Buffy at some point.
In conclusion, this was an extreme circumstance and I think the First was the main reason behind it: Divide and conquer and for a while it worked. Look at all the factors, secret messages, Spike, questions of authority and leadership and of course Eve!! Of course these concepts don't arise in a vacuum but I still believe the main reason is the mistrust of Buffy's ability to get them through this alive rather than personal issues.
Like I said, the FE were actually alot more clever than I gave them credit for originally and I think they are the main reason for the 'mutiny'. They used Buffy's greatest skill, her intuition, against her which made people wonder if they can trust her judgement which previously they relied on without any price really being paid. It was actually a pretty decent plan because on the one hand Buffy may have decided that it wasn't a good idea to go back, FE win again but Buffy's instinct were right but people were scared to trust Buffy's decision to go in again when the last time they got nothing but death and injury. Also the Spike plan was pretty good because if they had killed Spike then they would have lost one of their strongest warriors but on the other hand if Buffy protects him, which she was willing to do then considering that she's made dubious decisions regarding Spike before personally, then there's a chance that could be clouding her judgement in terms of what to do with him. On the third hand (lol) if nothing was done then Wood could have been right and Spike could have been their undoing in this battle.
I also went on to say (much like others have said) that I don't see it as a betrayal but as reaction to an extreme circumstance. Someone also commented on the fact that while the Scoobies behaviour was odd in the ep, Buffy's behaviour was becoming increasingly 'hard' that Season. I see it as a girl who was caught within virtually irreconcilable forces compelling her cut herself off from the one of main qualities that made her a good slayer in the past, one of the main reasons she's still alive today: her connection with her friends. Aside from her instincts, which is her other main quality, as I've said before, it was this reason the Scoobies followed her as long as they did.
Tranquillity
nice post :)
Great Post but I think your trying to justify why everyone turned on buffy but im not sure they all deserve defending. At the end of the day I think they were wrong. Theres a great quote from the beginning of the season in selfless...
Buffy does carry the wait of the world, and for her friends to reject her, kick her out her own house...was unacceptable and inexcusable. At the end of the day, she was in charge and everyone turned against her. Death is a part of war, Buffy and Faith seem to understand that. She made mistakes but she was right in wanting to attack the monastery place.
Giles motivation seemed solely driven by the fact he was firmly put in his place. Spike was needed in the battle (in fact he proved crucial), Buffy was right, Giles was wrong, Buffy is no longer in need of a watcher, he couldnt accept that... and so Buffy could have come up with a D-Day esk organised plan and Giles still wouldnt have been behind it. He acted childish voicing his concerns in front of everyone.
Willow? Why? It made no sense. Xander was fueled by the loss of his eye, ..still, shouldnt have been in front of everyone. Dawn? Inexcusable.
One final thing...Anya. I believe she was wrong too. (Yes i realize im defending Buffy all the way, that because she was right imo). Anya stated that Buffy thinks she's better than them. In the world of the Buffyverse, im sorry but Buffy is better. So many slayers over the last couple thousand of years and none have done what she has done. Look at Kendra who died after a year of slayage, or Faith who went psycho, Buffy was a superhero... and that has nothing to do with her powers.
At the end of the day it was the message that had been the underlying theme throughout the entire series, Buffy can have friends, she can rely on them and fight with them, and she NEEDS them...but in the end the Slayer is always alone...its only her...she is the law.
Kana
Soulless human
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Likewise 🙂.
I'm more looking at why rather than simply defending their actions. I don't think every decision Buffy made was necessarily the correct one, however the Scoobies may have been hasty in removing her when they did.
She does carry the weight of the world on her shoulders however she isn't immune the pressures that, that might bring. I think Buffy found it hard to reconcile herself with her own decisions as part of why she and her friends have connected so well is because of Buffy's belief that every life counts and to overlook one life over many is to undermine her very core value system. Her only way to 'deal' was to cut herself off, however by cutting herself off was she removing the very thing that allowed her to last this long as Slayer?
I partially agree that Giles found the transition from Teacher and guide to follower. For all his insistance that Buffy should lead, he often didn't allow her to do so. If she shouldn't lead, then take charge yourself, remove her from power and return partly to old MO where the Watcher is in charge and Slayer takes orders. Former Watcher Wes was able to make hard choices without totally cutting himself off because his credo has always been akin to a Utilitarian doctrine. If Giles could do the same then fine but his problem is that he couldn't decide which was dangerous for the group.
The Spike problem was a difficult because Wood despite his own vengence had a point that Spike could have easily been the groups undoing. Buffy stick your fingers in your ears and hope that everything will be ok approach with Blondie Bear wasn't all too smart. The fact that Spike saved the day in the end is irrelevant for two reasons:
1) They didn't know the exact role Spike was going to play in the end and...
2) Spike wasn't necessarily the only one to wear the amulet in the end anyway.
Still going behind Buffy's back was foolish and I'm surprised that Giles went along with it.
On account of their closeness I took Xander and Willow in the same breath. I think Willow felt that Xander's injury should have affected Buffy more.
Like I said, Dawn wasn't doing what she did out of hatred. Whether right or wrong it was out of fear that Buffy's instincts were failing her.
While I don't totally agree I do find some of the fringe theories interesting. One that amused me was that Buffy kicked herself out: She said herself she couldn't stay if she couldn't lead essentially and Dawn was more or less saying "Well considering we're not willing to follow you, then..."
In other words Buffy could have stayed if she was willing to follow but she couldn't so...bye!
I personally found this a little funny but it underscores an element of truth that it wasn't about kicking Buffy out as such but more about not being willing to follow Buffy simply out of loyalty. Again, this goes back to my theory about their being no real formalised leadership in Btvs as there is in Ats.
While I too believe that Buffy isn't a good person because of what she is but because of who she is. However Buffy only got as far as she did because of her friends and her ties to these friends so...
...Buffy needs to find that balance of leadership, morality and her connection to others. I've always believed that Buffy's isolation will be her undoing.