I'd like to hear from our lovely fellow fans on whether you would've been OK with BTVS ending at S5?
Buffy essentially hitting her 'peak' as a Slayer, gaining more knowledge about the Slayer line in general. The hints we received as viewers throughout the season; Buffy facing her mortality, 'death being your gift', her brush with the regular vamp stabbing her with her own stake, Joyce passing, etc.
I think it was a fitting finale, and if the series wound up there I would've been fine with it.
That's not to say I dislike S6 & S7, though they are quite problematic, particularly S7.
But she made the ultimate sacrifice. It was beautiful, it was heartbreaking, and it somehow felt complete for the series.
I was never OK with Buffy being a substitute for Dawn because Buffy was not the Key and the lame excuse that it was "Summers blood" did not mean that Buffy could end the bleeding of realities by killing herself. Her death seemed more like suicide than a sacrifice. The monk had told her that Dawn was patterned after her, not that she was identical or interchangeable with her. Season 5 ended as a tragedy but that glossed over the fact that it was effective by screenwriter's fiat rather than anything resembling logic. The subsequent seasons were messy but had some good episodes in them.
As someone who thought (and even Buffy herself later acknowledged it) that Dawn should've been sacrificed, I agree with this. However on the point that it was more suicide that sacrifice, I'm not sure.
But that (the 'Summers blood' reasoning) could've played out during the episode. Buffy, bleeding from the fight with Glory finds the portal rejects her blood. She then realises, no matter what, it has to be Dawn as she has all the mystical energy. It's not just the blood.
I'm not sure how that would've read though as a series finale though. Buffy feeling like a failure.
I suppose their memories could've been restored and they all forget about Dawn once her role as the key has been fulfilled?
My issue with "the Big Bad is life" thing is one I've mentioned elsewhere. If you're writing about a young woman with superpowers in a magical world battling demons, monsters and vampires, and the best idea you can come up with real life is hard, you've missed the whole point of Buffy the Vampire Slayer. It's not about real life. I have a real life. I know it can suck. I don't need to watch extra miserableness on an escapist show.
I think the truth of the matter is they'd built up to a Hell God as the climactic monster and just hadn't got a clue where to go from there.
Season six isn't just controversial; it's a showkiller. You do a tone change to that extent and you will alienate part of the fanbase. Possibly a lot of the fanbase. And that doesn't get a show renewed (I doubt they'd even have season seven if they did that today, agreement or no).
I guess I look at it differently? Yes, we have vampires and demons, but through it all we still see Buffy and her friends experience real-life issues. Yes, they're not the focus for the entire season like S6 was, but it's still 'real life' stuff we all relate to:
-The hell of high school, feeling like you don't fit in
-The bad boyfriend (Angelus)
-The 'mid-life crisis' with Giles. Xander not knowing where he belongs or what to do with his life
-Who you are as a person outside of high school
-Dealing with break-ups, loss (Joyce), Etc
So still a mix of escapism and realism. S6 was deeply focused on it whereas the other seasons had the balance of light and shade.
But you are right, after you fight a God, where do you go from that point?!
Side note - I'm loving reading all the responses here!
One issue I have with the "realism" of season six is I find it the most unrealistic season. (If they wanted realism, start with "Normal Again" and make the season about Buffy's struggles whilst she's institutionalised from living in a fantasy world. That would be realistic.)
The reason I find season six unrealistic is the sheer amount of stuff they had to change or ignore to get their "realism." Willow didn't act out of character because she was addicted to magic; magic was suddenly made addictive (we know it wasn't before) to justify her out of character behaviour. Anya and Xander's relationship didn't fall apart because he was afraid of becoming his father, that fear was introduced as a way of destroying their relationship (the only thing we know for certain about Xander's father at the end of season five is he has absolutely fear of turning into him). Buffy didn't have to work at Doublemeat because she ran out of money; every other way of her having money was deliberately ignored to force her to have to work there. And so on.
There were real elements in seasons 1-5 and they fitted. They blended with the story. They were believeable. In season six the writers got so obsessed with "realism" - destroying everyone's lives - that the "real" elements were crowbarred and bludgeoned into place and just don't work.
thrasherpixI'm tempted to add a couple of more paragraphs of examples, and then go off on everything from freeze rays, repeating time warping, dismantling a police station...I'd vote it more silly than season 1, but with pretentiousness added in.
I don't think I can get into season 6 here (especially not before breakfast!). If I did, there'd be a reminder to get back on topic. Have to keep it simple to avoid that.
So I'll just add that, for me, season 6 only works if you ignore the 5 seasons that come before it. Character wise, lore wise, and theme wise. Some clunky retcons where I think they outdid themselves (in a bad way) on that didn't help.
In retrospect it's amazing to me that I didn't give up on it then, but I did love the first few eps and felt positive about the season at first. Even with the huge problems of season 6 (like to say I've dealt with grief, poverty, drug addiction, and more, which I think also made it harder to deal with this season, like how kids can easily find something to relate to in a movie made about kids a generation ago, yet feel "something is off" when watching a show about kids while they're still kids),
I think season 7 could've saved it, and the first eps did make me think it would. But that was dashed (and I was faithful to the end, don't feel like repeating myself on that, and again, off topic of the thread, but I won't ever watch past the first half of s7 again if I see it at all), but it caused me to decide not to buy Angel. (I did buy Angel several years later, and loved it, even season 5 that made me acknowledge Buffy season 7, but that is neither here nor there.)
So because of how disappointed I was on the seasons that came after season 5 I do wish it had ended with 5. As Buffy herself said of her story, she was "complete." Let the brilliant show go with some dignity since they really needed to start a new story with new characters instead (maybe a spinoff).
NotASlayerI could easily write more paragraphs just on those three topics I mentioned!
Re: Special; Okay, "Chosen" literally made Buffy, an slayer, and placed Spike as the leading star of the Sunnydale Passion Play. Even S12, when going for the Final Battle, made it a Fray crossover and ended the story with Buffy becoming a cop who fights demons. If Buffy was supposed to win a decisive victory over hell, they never got around to showing it on screen.
As far as Slayer deaths go, Lothos apparently hunted half of them, having fed several to turned watchers, Spike killed one to have sex on, and one as what he claims was a death of despair. Kendra died by Dru, either by Dru's formidable psychic powers or as a cautionary tale for girls who listen to patriarchs, or something. So, dying in battle to save both the world and Dawn in accord with the words of the Ancient first, is a pretty good end.
As far as Season 6 goes: Look, Joss is a singular talent, and any way you cut it, the series after his departure would have seen a decline in quality. It has some great ideas, but it needed a lot of polish.
I'd like to hear from our lovely fellow fans on whether you would've been OK with BTVS ending at S5?
Buffy essentially hitting her 'peak' as a Slayer, gaining more knowledge about the Slayer line in general. The hints we received as viewers throughout the season; Buffy facing her mortality, 'death being your gift', her brush with the regular vamp stabbing her with her own stake, Joyce passing, etc.
I think it was a fitting finale, and if the series wound up there I would've been fine with it.
That's not to say I dislike S6 & S7, though they are quite problematic, particularly S7.
But she made the ultimate sacrifice. It was beautiful, it was heartbreaking, and it somehow felt complete for the series.
The Gift would have been a great ending. Especially if some of the storylines that were 'saved' for 6 and 7 [destruction of sunnydale & dark willow & buffy fighting the dragon] were used.
I think 6 & 7 were the worst two seasons of buffy. 6 is so badly done that it is hard to watch.
HOWEVER, overturning the slayer magic to empower ALL the potentials across the world is such an epic ending, i wish it was filmed instead of The Gift.
With season six, I can't even say "I hate it but it's well written," because I've realised just how shockingly badly written it is. It is so utterly dependent on ignoring seasons 1-5 that if you try to write six whilst paying attention to them, you can't. The season just completely falls apart.
That's what I mean by polish. Joss did uncredited rewrites of most scripts and would work with writers to improve the quality of their credited scripts. Improving other people's work is how he got his start in the business, and he was pretty good at it. He couldn't do that in six, which is why "Okay, I have this script I've been using for ten years about how an innocent girl gets addicted to drugs through an untrustworthy friend, becomes alienated from her friends and family and falls victim to prostitution." What if, I changed the words "drugs" to, and hear me out, "magic." I think the mutant enemy staff writers were all good in their own right, but they weren't Joss. Now, Joss got those results by forming a cult of personality, bullying half the staff, and overworking everyone, to be sure, but it did get quality.
One issue I have with the "realism" of season six is I find it the most unrealistic season. (If they wanted realism, start with "Normal Again" and make the season about Buffy's struggles whilst she's institutionalised from living in a fantasy world. That would be realistic.)
The reason I find season six unrealistic is the sheer amount of stuff they had to change or ignore to get their "realism." Willow didn't act out of character because she was addicted to magic; magic was suddenly made addictive (we know it wasn't before) to justify her out of character behaviour. Anya and Xander's relationship didn't fall apart because he was afraid of becoming his father, that fear was introduced as a way of destroying their relationship (the only thing we know for certain about Xander's father at the end of season five is he has absolutely fear of turning into him). Buffy didn't have to work at Doublemeat because she ran out of money; every other way of her having money was deliberately ignored to force her to have to work there. And so on.
There were real elements in seasons 1-5 and they fitted. They blended with the story. They were believeable. In season six the writers got so obsessed with "realism" - destroying everyone's lives - that the "real" elements were crowbarred and bludgeoned into place and just don't work.
Oh, I completely understand where you're coming from! S6 is definitely problematic.
It was something I didn't notice right away when I watched it as it first aired back in 2002 - as I mentioned elsewhere I jumped in very late on BTVS (midway through S5), so the contrast between seasons wasn't apparent to me until later.
Re-watches over the years offered time for more deeper analysis and closer scrutiny with the writing.
S6 for some people hits close as they felt like Buffy. I went through a loss couple of years ago, and suddenly (minus the vampires and coming back to life!) last year I realised I was her - going through the motions, give me something to sing about. So I relate to that season on some level. Doesn't mean I won't criticise the heck out of it though! 😁
S5 as a series hit their peak and as you mentioned, where to from that point.
I wonder what all the actors really think of s6, and where they'd rank it.
Trying to think how to word this. Buffy's overall arc in six was about the only bit that made sense (even if it didn't always fit on an episodal basis and even with her the writers went out of their way to make her even more miserable - and, I've heard, putting her and Spike together because they felt she needed a boyfriend, well...). She was a mess, but she had an understandable reason. The same cannot be said for anything else in the season.
This is something else I've thought of. I never saw the point of them breaking up Xander and Anya after all of that wedding build-up - it seemed to be for the sake of adding 'doom and gloom' to the season. Would Xander and Anya being married throughout season 7 really changed much?
Sure, 'Beneath You', 'Selfless' and 'First Date' wouldn't have worked but everything else would have. And Anya didn't have to die in Chosen! 🙁
Well I dislike season 6 strongly. I think it and Angel season 4 are the absolute low points of the entire Buffyverse and threatened to cheapen the entire point of the show and character. Season 7 meanwhile I loved at the time, but I've found it to be a weaker than the first 5 on rewatch.
That said, no The Gift would not be a good finale. It's a fantastic episode sure, but having Buffy die would not be true to the message of the show. Even in the campy movie, the whole point of the Buffster is that she is forced into this patriarchal system, where a bunch of guys demand she do their fighting in the understanding that she will die young and be replaced.
Buffy however decides to do things her own way and as a result she lives longer than the others who did it the watchers way. At the same time however, she's not a modern day girlboss who does everything perfectly. She does still rely on her friends, makes mistakes etc, allowing her to be a more relatable character for audiences. Still in the end doing things her own way not only allows her to live, but turn something that she was forced into, into something empowering.
The movie as butchered as it was, still got that by having her triumph over slayer killer Lothos, the show got that with her taking down legendary vamps like Spike and Angelus and the Master, and quitting the council and bending the rules in all kinds of ways. Hell even her relationships with Spike and Angel, not seeing vampires as just monsters was an example of her breaking the rules.
With this in mind however, having her accept that the only way out is dying young, and that's that would completely cheapen and undermine the core concept of the series. Whilst it may not have been quite as good an episode, ultimately Chosen that had Buffy again break the rules and make the world a better place was far more fitting. I'm happy to sit through one bad season (6) for that. Hell most shows have more than one bad season.
Anya was supposed to die in "The Gift," except Emma moved her arm, or so it is told. Which makes sense, we may hates the Scabby hobbitses, but they are still demons, and should be able to fend off a girl with tiny arms and a baseball bat. "We will break down the gates of heaven to overthrow the creator and break the wings of the saboath... Is that a dance major, RUN!" So, I think the wedding wasn't a crucial part of Season 6. Heck, kill her, it makes Xander's Skywalker save more impressive.
Re: Death; Most Heroes die a violent death, so it really doesn't bother me that Buffy would too. It's a fairly common theme in heroic literature, even. You don't really get to decide how long you live, only how you live.
I've read that according to Joss that Anya was supposed to die, but Emma was moving too much. Not sure I believe it though; she's not acting like someone pretending to be dead (and it's not like she would have wanted to be in the next season because there wasn't one. They could also have retaken the shot) nor does Nicholas Brendon seem to be acting as if he thinks she's dead. She even moves her head and looks at Buffy's body. In the past, they've had close ups of dead people who were clearly breathing. And they could have always killed her off between the seasons. "Died from injuries."
Trying to think how to word this. Buffy's overall arc in six was about the only bit that made sense (even if it didn't always fit on an episodal basis and even with her the writers went out of their way to make her even more miserable - and, I've heard, putting her and Spike together because they felt she needed a boyfriend, well...). She was a mess, but she had an understandable reason. The same cannot be said for anything else in the season.
This struck me as really odd. Apparently when the writers were sitting around to prep S6 they were saying something like, 'so who is Buffy's love interest for this season'.
My first thought? WHY?
Why would she need a 'love interest' in what was clearly going to be a season not filled with sunshine and rainbows.
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Least there weren't sparkles, NAS. 😧🤣
NotASlayerNeeding a love interest in order to function seems very Twilight. That is not a compliment.
thrasherpixA major difference between me and others is that love interests are usually to be endured rather than enjoyed. Even when I like them, as in enjoying it rather than seeing it as part of the story, I can't recall ever being obsessed over the ship.
NoShipWell.....there was a very vocal group of fans that demanded a love interest. These were the fans that Whedon & Co. usually listened to. Be careful what you ask for.....
burrunjorWhy does she need a love interest? I've said exactly the same thing many times. It's I'd say the biggest fault of Joss' writing that he feels characters need to be in a relationship all the time. See also Cangel.
"Love Interest" sounds more like a Network demand than a fan demand. Making attractive people kiss was an important feature of early seasons, and, presumably, UPN wanted those type of ratings. I'm sure bona fide Spuffy shippers were a thing at that time, but that's not what season 6 seems like.
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