The Gift - As A Series Finale

[hoponlilmama]

"Love Interest" sounds more like a Network demand than a fan demand. Making attractive people kiss was an important feature of early seasons, and, presumably, UPN wanted those type of ratings. I'm sure bona fide Spuffy shippers were a thing at that time, but that's not what season 6 seems like.

Perhaps the network did have a hand in it too.

The Spuffy 'tease' from Something Blue should've been it. Nothing more.

But that leads to a discussion of a bigger problem with the writing, where they took Spike's character/story and then we'll get way, way off topic...

 

[hoponlilmama]

NotASlayer that sounds about right! 🤣
James basically said so himself. JW would come to him and say every year and tell him, "we don't know what to do with your character".

So if you don't...then perhaps it's time for Spike to get in his DeSoto and get the heck out of Sunnydale. Find someone who could remove his chip.

 

[thrasherpix]

"Magic 8 ball" for what Spike does next....HAHAHAHAHAHAHA! 😀

It's funny because it's true. If it wasn't, it should've been. Might've turned out better.

 

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

Your thoughts?

I completely, totally agree 💯.

I remember reading somewhere that Joss had intended for that to be the end, but then the show was picked up for another season unexpectedly.

Now, this may surprise you coming from such a big ride or die hardcore Spuffy shipper as myself, because there is so much great content with these two in the last two seasons, and a couple of my all time favorite episodes are in these seasons... but even I can still admit that the show should have ended with "The Gift."

Post automatically merged: Aug 4, 2023

I always want to see more of my favourite characters, hence watching supernatural for 15 season. I would have watched beyond s7 with Buffy too, yet equally satisfied with a season 5 ending.

Agree about SPN. I watched the whole show too because I wanted to see as much of them as I could, but in the end, I'll always say that 1-5 are the best and it also should have ended there. Also what did you think of the finale? I loved it. I thought was totally perfect.

Post automatically merged: Aug 4, 2023

Her death seemed more like suicide than a sacrifice.

I couldn't agree more. She jumped to save Dawn, and it was a sacrifice, but I would argue that a part of Buffy wanted to be done. Buffy committed suicide, no matter how much you want to say she didn't.

Every Slayer has a death wish, even you.

 

[NotASlayer]

Every Slayer has a death wish, even you.

How fortunate I'm Not A Slayer then.

 

[hoponlilmama]

"Love Interest" sounds more like a Network demand than a fan demand. Making attractive people kiss was an important feature of early seasons, and, presumably, UPN wanted those type of ratings. I'm sure bona fide Spuffy shippers were a thing at that time, but that's not what season 6 seems like.

I was curious as to whether the actual term 'love interest' was used when I read it, so went back and had a look in the book I had recently read (Slayers & Vampires: The Complete Uncensored, Unauthorized, Oral History of Buffy The Vampire Slayer & Angel).

This is from David Fury: "It became, 'Does Buffy need a love interest?' Of course, it eventually came around to Spike, which was an unusual choice. It was one many of the fans embraced. I was a little less enthusiastic since I knew the vampires were demons essentially..."

Further down: "We were able to get there once Buffy came back from the dead and she was all messed up. Then she could become Spike's love interest because it was self-destructive..."

Post automatically merged: Aug 5, 2023

I completely, totally agree 💯.

I remember reading somewhere that Joss had intended for that to be the end, but then the show was picked up for another season unexpectedly.

Now, this may surprise you coming from such a big ride or die hardcore Spuffy shipper as myself, because there is so much great content with these two in the last two seasons, and a couple of my all time favorite episodes are in these seasons... but even I can still admit that the show should have ended with "The Gift."

Post automatically merged: Aug 4, 2023

I'm not surprised at all, because you're looking at the show as a whole, not focused on a particular relationship. 👍

 

[Synch]

I completely, totally agree 💯.

I remember reading somewhere that Joss had intended for that to be the end, but then the show was picked up for another season unexpectedly.

There was a bidding war between WB (network) and Fox (production company) and they eventually signed with UPN in April 2001 (Joss shot The Gift around March/April).

However they always worked with a Season 6 in mind. Joss had the musical episode in mind since Fall 2000 plus he enlisted Marti Noxon as Executive Producer for Season 6 in February.

So The Gift was a potential series finale just in case...

 

[Btvs fan]

There was a bidding war between WB (network) and Fox (production company) and they eventually signed with UPN in April 2001 (Joss shot The Gift around March/April).

However they always worked with a Season 6 in mind. Joss had the musical episode in mind since Fall 2000 plus he enlisted Marti Noxon as Executive Producer for Season 6 in February.

So The Gift was a potential series finale just in case...

Joss has said he only had a 5 year arc planned and to be honest it showed. The Musical is a 1 off and even that has issues.

People talk about S6 being terrible and it was but S7 was also terrible albiet for different reasons. In that they're literally redoing old plots and he admitted he was creatively burnt out by that point.

So yes to the original question.Buffy dying to save the world was the perfect ending. Hell he even ditched his S7 ending in the comics, pressing the reset.

 

[AlphaFoxtrot]

Okay, what's being left unsaid is television business. Five years is usually when 20th century American television shows would hit 100 episodes. This is important, because 100 episodes is five months of weekday television, the minimum one needs for syndication deals. This is important, as most television series are made at a loss, and expect to make up those losses in syndication. This is why Angel survived the fourth season, but was cancelled after the fifth. They really need those hundred episodes. Anything after that landmark, is gravy. Who knows how long the WB would have wanted to drag Buffy out?

 

[Btvs fan]

Okay, what's being left unsaid is television business. Five years is usually when 20th century American television shows would hit 100 episodes. This is important, because 100 episodes is five months of weekday television, the minimum one needs for syndication deals. This is important, as most television series are made at a loss, and expect to make up those losses in syndication. This is why Angel survived the fourth season, but was cancelled after the fifth. They really need those hundred episodes. Anything after that landmark, is gravy. Who knows how long the WB would have wanted to drag Buffy out?

Look I don't blame Joss for selling to UPN. From a financial stand point it was the right move. He had the money and had 2 Guaranteed years. He also had 3 different shows on 3 different Networks at the same time. By then though it was obvious he was bored with Buffy and was focused on Firefly.

Angel was renewed really late in the day because they brought Spike over. Gave the show a new set and light look and went more stand alone (though that was ditched halfway through) SMG was originally meant for the 100th episode. Ironic if she had have come back then Cordy might still be in a coma to this day.

For why it was cancelled, that was because Joss tried to force a renewal early and the Network felt cornered. That's what David Fury said anyway.

 

[NotASlayer]

Joss has said he only had a 5 year arc planned and to be honest it showed. The Musical is a 1 off and even that has issues.

People talk about S6 being terrible and it was but S7 was also terrible albiet for different reasons. In that they're literally redoing old plots and he admitted he was creatively burnt out by that point.

So yes to the original question.Buffy dying to save the world was the perfect ending. Hell he even ditched his S7 ending in the comics, pressing the reset.

Season five and The Gift had foreshadowing going back to at least Graduation Day Part 2. Season six had none. It looks like the only times season six acknowledged the existence of 1-5 was when they wanted to try and justify some poor writing decisions.

Season seven gave me the impression that the writers realised how much damage they'd done to the show with season six, had tried to fix it, realised the only way to do so was pressing the reset button and making season six not have happened at all, and gave up. Instead, they tried to get us interested in new characters, leading to The Buffy, Spike & Andrew Show (Ft. Robin, Kennedy & the Potentials). Season six may have driven a stake through the show's heart but it was seven that nailed the coffin shut.

 

[Btvs fan]

Season five and The Gift had foreshadowing going back to at least Graduation Day Part 2. Season six had none. It looks like the only times season six acknowledged the existence of 1-5 was when they wanted to try and justify some poor writing decisions.

Season seven gave me the impression that the writers realised how much damage they'd done to the show with season six, had tried to fix it, realised the only way to do so was pressing the reset button and making season six not have happened at all, and gave up. Instead, they tried to get us interested in new characters, leading to The Buffy, Spike & Andrew Show (Ft. Robin, Kennedy & the Potentials). Season six may have driven a stake through the show's heart but it was seven that nailed the coffin shut.

Also, it had been Seven Years by that point. Creatively Joss Whedon was burnt out with Buffy. Like I said he even presses the reset on the Chosen ending in the comics. Hell not just him, SMG had clearly had enough with BtVS by that point, she reminded me of Harrison Ford in RTJ at that point.


The only one that seemed to have any creativity or freshness was Drew Goddard. For me he was the only stand out in S7 writer wise.

Also I think the show really struggled post S3 getting past the High School is hell metaphor it had been based around. Then you had Angel as the Adult spin off and so it was bit in limbo in a way On what to do next.

 

[Synch]

Keep in mind that Joss signed a great deal with Fox in January 2001 for about 20 million to get Buffy to Season 8 and Angel to Season 5. Of course that was Fox, not WB. Network original deal ended with Buffy Season 5 so Joss and everyone knew, at least, there was an option for S6+ either with a new deal with WB or with another network.

Then we have the creative side of it. Joss said he was tired by the end of S5 (his assistant, and future Normal Again writer Diego Gutierrez, even made a graph with Joss's deceleration of involvement) plus the musical episode (he knew he needed time off to write it) plus his anual Angel episode plus Firefly on the horizon (if Fox gave greenlight in Dec 2001, then Joss had the show in mind well before plus Fox deal in Jan 2001 included new shows) plus Buffy animated.

So yeah, they won 2 more years but Joss, as we know, took a back seat (so he ran Buffy S6 like he always ran Angel: with day to day showrunners) and did what he wanted (the musical and Firefly) while overseeing Buffy and Angel in hands o Marti and Fury / Greenwalt and Minear and then Bell and Fury.

 

[AlphaFoxtrot]

Agreed. Very few series can maintain consistent quality through year seven. If Joss only had five years of stories I him, it's not that unusual.

 

[DeepBlueJoy]

I personally like that Buffy subverts the slayer ends with death and sacrifice. I really get tired of women dying in series. The gift was an excellent episode, probably better than Chosen, but alive Buffy with a future rocks!

 

[Btvs fan]

Keep in mind that Joss signed a great deal with Fox in January 2001 for about 20 million to get Buffy to Season 8 and Angel to Season 5. Of course that was Fox, not WB. Network original deal ended with Buffy Season 5 so Joss and everyone knew, at least, there was an option for S6+ either with a new deal with WB or with another network.

Then we have the creative side of it. Joss said he was tired by the end of S5 (his assistant, and future Normal Again writer Diego Gutierrez, even made a graph with Joss's deceleration of involvement) plus the musical episode (he knew he needed time off to write it) plus his anual Angel episode plus Firefly on the horizon (if Fox gave greenlight in Dec 2001, then Joss had the show in mind well before plus Fox deal in Jan 2001 included new shows) plus Buffy animated.

So yeah, they won 2 more years but Joss, as we know, took a back seat (so he ran Buffy S6 like he always ran Angel: with day to day showrunners) and did what he wanted (the musical and Firefly) while overseeing Buffy and Angel in hands o Marti and Fury / Greenwalt and Minear and then Bell and Fury.

While not on set as much, he was still involved with the scripts and stories and there obvious weaknesses. Nothing got on screen without his say so.
Marti wanted Buffy/Spike to be a 1 and done. It was Joss who wanted the Invisible Buffy sex in Gone with the blow job joke "OK that's cheating"
It was Joss who put the balcony sex scene in Dead Things (Steve DeKnight confirmed this) it was Joss who redid the Church scene in Beneath You.
He did the Buffy part of the Conversations with Dead People story.
Joss did all of Nathan Fillions dialogue in Dirty Girls.
Joss Whedon was still involved and there's a load of his obvious writing weaknesses that show up.
Classic is him ignoring something in favour of the moment.
I'll use the Avengers as an example. In 1 scene Hulk is an out of control monster, the next he's not. Why ??? Reasons
Hell if you want a Buffy show example, simply listen to the Chosen DVD Commentary he even admits it regards how the Uber Vamps are dying really easily compared to the 1 previously.

 

[NotASlayer]

I personally like that Buffy subverts the slayer ends with death and sacrifice. I really get tired of women dying in series. The gift was an excellent episode, probably better than Chosen, but alive Buffy with a future rocks!

I... don't think Buffy/Angel are great examples of women not dying. The four major Scooby/Scooby adjacent deaths are Anya, Tara, Jenny and Joyce. All women. Yes, the show was tilted towards female characters, but still. The only major male character to die was Spike - and he got better.

On the face of it, Angel initially looks better, with a 50/50 split: Doyle and Wesley (Gunn was still breathing at the end), Cordelia and Fred. However, that show was dominated more by male characters than Buffy and that was a 100% mortality rate for the women of Angel Investigations.

 

[DeepBlueJoy]

Did not say that the 2 series were good for female deaths. Only that i am glad it did not end with dead Buffy - particularly in light of all the women who died in both series, mostly for Joss' capricious reasons

 

[Ethan Reigns]

I... don't think Buffy/Angel are great examples of women not dying. The four major Scooby/Scooby adjacent deaths are Anya, Tara, Jenny and Joyce. All women. Yes, the show was tilted towards female characters, but still. The only major male character to die was Spike - and he got better.

On the face of it, Angel initially looks better, with a 50/50 split: Doyle and Wesley (Gunn was still breathing at the end), Cordelia and Fred. However, that show was dominated more by male characters than Buffy and that was a 100% mortality rate for the humans of Angel Investigations.

FIFY. Don't forget all the gender-indiscriminate deaths at Wolfram & Hart.

 

[Btvs fan]

@thrasherpix You've also got the hole in the desert when Sunnydale is meant to be a coastal Town. But for me the worst moment is the Buffy montage about giving a choice when you've got literally a load of girls not being given a choice !. He could've easily had the Potentials with Buffy just be the ones to get the powers and that's it but nope , he wanted his moment so didn't care how it looked or what came before.


Tim Minear on Passion of the Nerd Podcast saying it was Joss being bores and not Julie Benz being unavailable on why they went to Pylea in Angel Season 2 is eye opening. It makes me wonder why people go out of there way to make excuses for his writing or simply blame Marti etc. Like seriously why I don't get it ? Yes praise his good writing but criticising his bad writing is fair too