The Gift - As A Series Finale

[Synch]

"Good Rationship" is relative. Whedon & Greenwalt had all kinds of problems. Whedon wanted to bring his pure vision of Buffy to TV & Greenwalt wanted to bring the commercially successful version of Whedon's vision to TV. Greebwalt 'championed' making Angel a vampire with a soul so he could romance Buffy, and, by putting two of the most gorgeous peoe on tv at the time together, drive ratings way up. Whedon hated both ideas, and never forgot/forgave that 20th picked Greenwalt's vision over his. The massive financial success smoothed over a lot of the rough spots, but, a lot of their getting along was Hollywood acting for the employees & public.

ATS made their disputes worse. Greenwalt was an unsuccessful showrunner (Profitt lasted 5 eps) who wanted to prove himself. Whedon was a control freak. Greenwalt expected to be THE showrunner (I believe they used the term Chief Producer back then) for ATS while Whedon expected him to be a kind of super line producer. Then the whole Tim Minear & pay cut & Greewalt quit.

So, they got on, but, didn't. Both shows benefitted from the creative competition & suffered from the interpersonal disputes.

There were times it was quite adversarial & times it was not. It was less adversarial in the beginning & more adversarial in the end. They had to work together & tried to make it work. It helped that they were both making a lot of money.

Nevertheless, Whedon & Greenwalt had a very rocky relationship for many reasons. Several of the big reasons included Whedon's total inexperience in running a tv show & reluctance to listen to people who did know (Greenwalt had been a showrunner before), Greenwalt being 20th's choice for deputy showrunner (not Whedon's) & how much showrunning Greenwalt would be allowed to do on ATS.

I am not sure I would trust Minear on Greenwalt. Minear was one of Whedon's favorites & really didn't care to be under Greenwalt. However, Minear is a really good writer & I like alot of his stuff.

Not sure about those years but today they are OK I guess as Greenwalt was at Joss and his wife Christmas party at their home along Amy, J August, Nathan etc

I guess Joss potential problems with Greenwalt came from, as you said, Joss' reluctance to listen to Greenwalt. As much as there is some stories about him speaking like Joss and so, my theory is Joss only relied (when he needed: Buffy after Greenwalt left, Angel except Greenwalt, Firefly, even Buffy animated) on people who made exactly what he wanted, adding their own ideas but, at the end, making the show Joss wanted. Maybe thats the reason Joss did too many things by himself during Seasons 1-2-3 and less during Seasons 4 and 5 (ok he had 2 shows, his fully formed team of writers, resident directors etc), because Marti didn't co-ran with him (as a second in command is supposed to do) by trying to be a driving force. Season 6 and 7 was a different story, of course.

As for ATS, I agree. Every interview from the era showed the idea of Joss running Buffy why, at the same time, doing an Uber supervision (writers room, editing, and way less in between the process, mostly due to Angel being shot 45 minutes from Buffy sets and Mutant Enemy offices). Not sure if 20th asked Joss to had a day to day showrunner (Greenwalt) instead of Joss doing both shows with individual showrunners for each (like he did when he had 3 shows) but I'm sure every fight came because Greenwalt, as was his right, wanted to ran his show. And then Minear came and we know (from his last interview) Joss never rewrote him (100% sure Minear asked it when he threatened to quit after his first episode) and he was almost his own showrunner during many of his episodes. So yeah: maybe 3 showrunners was too much to ran Angel smoothly but, hey, we won a very intense show. I liked it.

Maybe the problem, at the end, was Joss wanted to ran a show (ATS) that actually had its own showrunner and second in command, too many different ideas ina writers room (and the whole post production) just downstairs from Buffy writers room and Joss office. Mere Smith explained Joss often (during the first 2-3 years) came down and erased the whole whiteboard (when they broke the stories...) and it was so frustrating to the rest of the team and, I bet, to the official showrunner. Meanwhile, upstairs, Joss ran Buffy on his own with a veeeery good advisor/consiglere who wasn't a director (she tried 2 times tho) or even a production leader (she did ok when she was alone during S6 but...).

Btw I just remember I also read (Joss book by Amy Pascale) Tim was the first and only writer to broke stories without Joss. So yeah: he had an special treatment and maybe was the only an real independent showrunner of Mutant Enemy (not even for Firefly as they led side by side as Tim confirmed to me one time).

 

[garfan]

I think Buffy ending the show dead would have been a massive mistake and I think the show would be less remembered for it.

I do wonder however if the show had ended at season 5 if Buffy might not have been so broken when she died and her death would have been a genuine sacrifice

@thrasherpix I always felt like memory alteration being so terrible when the Scoobies were operating with between 1 and 14 years of fake memories in their head as weird. I do remember Joss saying that the rejection of Riley meant fans wanted Buffy miserable so who knows maybe if Riley had been liked the show ends with Buffy engaged to him and she would be thinking about their wedding without what was happening with Dawn

 

[Plasma]

I think it works as a great series finale, giving herself so that the next generation can live on.

Credit where it’s due, I think they had a fantastic plotline with the whole “I was in heaven” ordeal in S6. They just didn’t know where to go with it or end it and there’s not really a compelling villain that would make Buffy want to really “live” again, hence the dark willow stuff. S7 is just…well S7.

 

[NoShip]

They really need those hundred episodes. Anything after that landmark, is gravy. Who knows how long the WB would have wanted to drag Buffy out?

In 2000, before the renewal negotiations, there was serious talk of a 10 year run!!!

Post automatically merged: Jan 26, 2024

Season six may have driven a stake through the show's heart but it was seven that nailed the coffin shut.

Yes. And that nail was a 20% drop in viewership that curbed any enthusiasm for the show & any of the spinoffs as well.

Post automatically merged: Jan 26, 2024

Keep in mind that Joss signed a great deal with Fox in January 2001 for about 20 million to get Buffy to Season 8 and Angel to Season 5. Of course that was Fox, not WB.

All true.

IIRC - Whedon was due a $10 million bonus from 20th when SMG signed on for TV s8. Whedon was enraged when SMG refused to sign on & SMG was enraged that the salary offered her was less than Whedon's bonus.

 

[NoShip]

In terms of the writers, Jane Espenson was openly the Spuffy Shipper, not Marti. Marti was a Riley shipper. She saw Spuffy as a 1 and done and thats it. Buffy sleeps with Spike then immediately regrets it and never again.
Doug Petrie was a Riley shipper (see any of his DVD Commentaries or As You Were)
David Fury was against Spuffy and openly called Spuffy Shippers serial killer lovers.
Joss wasn't a Spuffy shipper, he simply recognised that it was popular though he tried to insult them without losing his Joss is God status among them, and to much of a coward to openly declare agajnst it.In Ats S5 Destiny , Fury says it was Joss who had Spike sleep with Harmony not him

Yes & No.

Whedon has been pretty much on all sides of pretty much all issues. So..... wait a year & he will change his position. And he does not respect about 80% of his audience. And he hated Spike because 20th crammed him down Whedon's throat..... twice. Then Whedon learned to love Spike because of all the $ he brought in.

Noxon was rather enamoured of James Marsters/Spike & loved to see as much of him as possible.

Espenson was the self proclaimed 'sex poodle' who wanted Spike & Buffy having as much sex as UPN would allow. She pushed hard to have Spuffy naked & horozontal in Him.

Fury wanted to follow the Buffyverse mythology - so - no soulless vampires with humans. Serial killer lovers was a reference to the Buffy is a Bitch crowd who were angry Buffy kicked Spike out of her house at the end of Crush.

Whedon was pissed at SMG for a lot of imagined (some real) slights. He did use s6 & s7 Spuffy to put her in her place.

Well..... It looks like a lot more Yes than No. Cheers!!! 😁

 

[hoponlilmama]

Yes & No.

Whedon has been pretty much on all sides of pretty much all issues. So..... wait a year & he will change his position. And he does not respect about 80% of his audience. And he hated Spike because 20th crammed him down Whedon's throat..... twice. Then Whedon learned to love Spike because of all the $ he brought in.

Noxon was rather enamoured of James Marsters/Spike & loved to see as much of him as possible.

Espenson was the self proclaimed 'sex poodle' who wanted Spike & Buffy having as much sex as UPN would allow. She pushed hard to have Spuffy naked & horozontal in Him.

Fury wanted to follow the Buffyverse mythology - so - no soulless vampires with humans. Serial killer lovers was a reference to the Buffy is a Bitch crowd who were angry Buffy kicked Spike out of her house at the end of Crush.

Whedon was pissed at SMG for a lot of imagined (some real) slights. He did use s6 & s7 Spuffy to put her in her place.

Well..... It looks like a lot more Yes than No. Cheers!!! 😁

If you've watched the s6 dailies - it's like fan-fic come to life. Almost like they knew the raunchiest scenes wouldn't actually make it to air but they wanted to see James being all sexy.

Post automatically merged: Jan 27, 2024

The phrase "Love Interest" was Network. It was referring to the extremely effective online campaign to bring Buffy & Spike together as a couple.

UPN, paying more than double what WB paid for Buffy was desperate to bring the ratings up to justify the ad rate increases needed to cover the cost & saw Buffy with Spike as the new Buffy & Angel. As Bangel massively goosed the ratings (and, more importantly, the ad rates) in s2, so would Spuffy in s6..... at least, that was the theory....

So they decided to tread old ground with a vamp/slayer union. Disappointing.
Considering how much we're told throughout the series - by Buffy herself - how she seeks some normalcy in her life.

I'm thankful at least the show ended with her being happy and single.

 

[NoShip]

Buffy dying to win a decisive battle is, frankly, the best most slayers can hope for. I would have changed it, so that the Hellmouth would have been closed, and a new Slayer was called. That would have fulfilled her primary task, and gave a sense of momentum to the ending, but the episode as is, does stand as a finale.

Actually, the Sunnydale Crater & Dark Willow were supposed to be part of The Gift & the original episode title was Chosen & it was supposed to be a 2 hour event.

Because Buffy got renewed, several plot points & storylines & the name or the episode were moved to later seasons or quietly ignored.

 

[garfan]

Which always makes me think they devised Dark Wilow without a way back. Combine Dark Willow with the idea of Xander being Glory's host originally, I have this feeling things were originally going for a rocks fall (almost) every dies ending.

Honestly surviving the decisive apocalyptic battle and then losing to a mook is probably better off

 

[AlphaFoxtrot]

Thanks, that would put an punctuation mark on the story.

Although, I question what is Dark Willow, exactly? Willow going after Glory with Dark Magic and a power level of over nine thousand isn't exactly the moral event horizon, not in S5, anyways. It seems like the Willow turning against her friends and abandoning moral choices after being rendered by grief into a empty shell that really hopes someone kills her would be the dark part. Eh, by this point, we all know what it is.

 

[garfan]

Thanks, that would put an punctuation mark on the story.

Although, I question what is Dark Willow, exactly? Willow going after Glory with Dark Magic and a power level of over nine thousand isn't exactly the moral event horizon, not in S5, anyways. It seems like the Willow turning against her friends and abandoning moral choices after being rendered by grief into a empty shell that really hopes someone kills her would be the dark part. Eh, by this point, we all know what it is.

yeah, there's never been a good explanation of what Dark WIllow would be in season 5, how she'd go from attacking Glory to helping her.

 

[thrasherpix]

My immediate guess is that Willow would suck out Glory's power along with Tara being incurable (or maybe she kills Tara by accident as she tries to cure her) that would do it. She sucked out Tara's essence (which required finesse) to put back into Tara. Imagine if she sucked out the rest of Glory the way Dark Willow would Rack. Rack was corrupted enough, but a Hellgod with that much power? Dark Phoenix for sure.

I thought one of the show's weaknesses is that it liked to repeat themes (even when it means forgetting a lesson so they can arbitrarily teach it again with a recycled story), and this would go a bit with Angel turning into Angelus, or even the surprise Big Bad where Maggie is replaced by Adam all of a sudden.

I'm not sure what they'd do with Dawn then....unless the new goddess decided she had better places to go, and even if it's not where Glory wanted to go, there were plenty of other places, and how convenient to have a key...but such massive power creep in a situation like that and all, it would be a challenge to write that didn't feel disjointed (not that they cared so much in later seasons).

 

[garfan]

My immediate guess is that Willow would suck out Glory's power along with Tara being incurable (or maybe she kills Tara by accident as she tries to cure her) that would do it. She sucked out Tara's essence (which required finesse) to put back into Tara. Imagine if she sucked out the rest of Glory the way Dark Willow would Rack. Rack was corrupted enough, but a Hellgod with that much power? Dark Phoenix for sure.

I thought one of the show's weaknesses is that it liked to repeat themes (even when it means forgetting a lesson so they can arbitrarily teach it again with a recycled story), and this would go a bit with Angel turning into Angelus, or even the surprise Big Bad where Maggie is replaced by Adam all of a sudden.

I'm not sure what they'd do with Dawn then....unless the new goddess decided she had better places to go, and even if it's not where Glory wanted to go, there were plenty of other places, and how convenient to have a key...but such massive power creep in a situation like that and all, it would be a challenge to write that didn't feel disjointed (not that they cared so much in later seasons).

Tara was going to die, not get brainsucked, I know that much

I'm fairly certain Willow wouldn't have replaced Glory as the Big Bad.nothing has suggested that

 

[NoShip]

One of the big problems ferreting out the What If's of Buffy is the huge number of proposals that made it through the 'Pitch' stage (Whedon approval), but, never made it into a final script. Or, the number of revisions to a particular episode break-down or script which left lots of written plotpoints & storylines legitimately considered for an episode, that, for a bunch of reasons, were removed from the break-down or script.

I think most/all the ideas above made it through the Whedon Approval stage into a draft break-down or script, but, were later removed.

So..... We get lots of tea leaves to read, most of which, are, mostly right.

 

[Ethan Reigns]

I wonder sometimes if the writers deliberately tried to make things difficult for the writer of the following episode. It's like playing billiards, if you don't have the skill to run the table, the shot you take isn't as important as the shot you leave for the other guy. After all, if there is a star writer and you write the previous episode to make it difficult to for him to write his, maybe you will be moved higher in the pecking order.

I'm not saying this happened, but it could very well happen and it may account for the deviations from established lore and the awkwardness of the writing as time went on.

 

[NotASlayer]

Actually, the Sunnydale Crater & Dark Willow were supposed to be part of The Gift & the original episode title was Chosen & it was supposed to be a 2 hour event.

Because Buffy got renewed, several plot points & storylines & the name or the episode were moved to later seasons or quietly ignored.

Given the mess that was made of the later seasons, season 5 and The Gift may well have benefited a lot from those elements not being used in it.

 

[NoShip]

Given the mess that was made of the later seasons, season 5 and The Gift may well have benefited a lot from those elements not being used in it.

Well.....

Most of the season 6 mess was Noxon's quest to exploit her career making turn as the first female showrunner of a popular show combined with Whedons quest for an Emmy. Hence the Darker & Edgier. Of course, it would have been nice if our heroes remembered the third component: Darker & Edgier & Better.

I always find it funny to read Whedon-Noxon comments before s6 & after. My impression is that those two chuckleheads thought (and still think) they were doing great & we are wrong for not understanding it. I get the impression that most fans understand s6 quite well.

 

[AlphaFoxtrot]

Agreed. I have no first hand experience, but I did read the TNG Companion, and it's amazing how script ideas can mutate from pitch to final edit. Then I read the DS9 companion, and learned even more, like how I should have purchased a copy of that book when I could. Then I read the Voy Companion, and was profoundly disappointed.

In any case, I think "Phoenix Saga Willow" or "Child of Light" is probably the better idea label, a disturbing exercise of power, even if for the side of good. Without bird people with stupid hair and the M'kran crystal.

Re: Darkness; Yeah, the Body really got to Joss's head, didn't it? The thing is, The Body is really unpleasant to watch. I mean, it is a masterpiece, but so is Schindler's List. It probably didn't help S6 would have been released during Fall of 2001. Colorful escapism in the face of adversity would have probably been appreciated.

 

[NoShip]

It probably didn't help S6 would have been released during Fall of 2001. Colorful escapism in the face of adversity would have probably been appreciated.

I think you are on to something.....

 

[Synch]

My immediate guess is that Willow would suck out Glory's power along with Tara being incurable (or maybe she kills Tara by accident as she tries to cure her) that would do it. She sucked out Tara's essence (which required finesse) to put back into Tara. Imagine if she sucked out the rest of Glory the way Dark Willow would Rack. Rack was corrupted enough, but a Hellgod with that much power? Dark Phoenix for sure.

Steven S DeKnight talked about how Joss had Tara's dead in mind and from one year before:

'Joss had the idea of how it happened and he knew that was going to incite Willow to go all Dark Phoenix. I'll never forget. He said, "Listen, I've got this one scene in my mind. It's kind of in the coda of the episode. She's in her room; Tara's talking to Willow. There's gunshot from the outside, and Willow's splattered with blood. Tara's last words are 'Your shirt', and then she dies". I'm thinking, "Holy shit, that's brilliant. That's awful... and brilliant...and tragic. " Joss would have those cornerstone ideas and a lot of great detail. The he would rely on his writers to kick it around, flesh it out, pitch it to him. Then he would make adjustments. That's really the way it worked. Joss almost always had the big ideas'

Slayers & Vampires, page 243.

I wonder sometimes if the writers deliberately tried to make things difficult for the writer of the following episode. It's like playing billiards, if you don't have the skill to run the table, the shot you take isn't as important as the shot you leave for the other guy. After all, if there is a star writer and you write the previous episode to make it difficult to for him to write his, maybe you will be moved higher in the pecking order.

I'm not saying this happened, but it could very well happen and it may account for the deviations from established lore and the awkwardness of the writing as time went on.

Actually the whole process prevented those problems. The fact the whole writers room (minus the one writing the previous episode and sometimes Joss and or Marti because they had too many duties on pre and post production) did the storybreaking process made possible every episode had coherence and the writer's style was, mostly, from the dialogue and details. Plus they had a list based on rotational basis according to rank (Joss, Marti, David, Doug, Jane etc) except when one of them pitched a strong story idea and/or one of them asked for it (like Marti with romance ones... And because she was Joss' fav, lol). And with Joss or Marti notes/rewrites, the final product was pretty much the writers room as a team led by Joss.

Of course it changed a bit during the final 2 years for many reasons (Marti without full autonomy, Marti pregnancy leave, Fury to Angel, Simkins, Joss with 3 shows, the idea of every writer actually showrunning their own episodes etc) and, of course, every writer had their own space to shine but Joss' idea to have a very strong writers team who knew the formula and the creator style, more than a group of talented individuals, was one of the very best things of the show IMHO.

 

[garfan]

Oh his reaction to finding out that would be the most hated scene he would ever write