The "I Love Illyria" thread.

[Allycat]

Much better, it looks really cool! I'm starting to hope for an Illyria spin-off.

 

[touchedbyangel]

so sad to see fred go ::nopity:: but she was getting kind of boring.. as a character.. Illyria is pretty cool and Amy shows us all what a good actress she is.. being able to play such a different character and all..

"Just one roof.. in this time, in this place, with an unstable human who drinks too much whiskey and called me a smurf"

lmao! loved that line 🙂 hehe and i watched the new video you made Lee its very good i really liked it! good job!

 

[Blackarachnia]

I love it too!!! Thanks so much for the wonderful gift to all of us Illyria lovers. But now we only have 5 eps left with her in them. that sucks sooo badly!!!!!!

I want more Angel *pouts* Damn it, the WB has to relent!!!

And the smurf line was one of the best in the ep. Along with the shrimp dimension - remember when Anya mentioned the same dimension?

 

[nerd4hire]

And the smurf line was one of the best in the ep. Along with the shrimp dimension - remember when Anya mentioned the same dimension?

Yeah, who woulda thunk it? The great Illyria can even be funny.

Hey, I think next weeks ep is written by Drew Goddard. I can't wait to see what he can do with Illyria. He wrote the Anyacentric episode Selfless for Buffy 7. I can't help thinking he's really gonna cook, once he gets wrapped around the Illyria storyline.

 

[Lethe]

Yeah, who woulda thunk it? The great Illyria can even be funny.

Hey, I think next weeks ep is written by Drew Goddard. I can't wait to see what he can do with Illyria. He wrote the Anyacentric episode Selfless for Buffy 7. I can't help thinking he's really gonna cook, once he gets wrapped around the Illyria storyline.

You mean Origin, right? That will be something interesting.

I thought Illyria was great in "Shells" but in "Underneath" I was one of the people who was talking during the Angel-Spike-Gunn\Harmony-Lorne-Eve scenes saying "Go away! I want to see her!" I couldn't wait until the Illyria-Wesley scenes came on. Illyria is pure, awesome beauty. Power, in a raw form we don't see much of. She has a sort of attraction to her, a sensuality. Attracted and worshipped by girls and guys alike. She shouldn't fret. People still worship her.
Another thing I love about Illyria is her subtlety. She is so incredibly complex and wonderful, but also so still. Her voice is so steady, on the edge of eerie. She is now my favorite character on the show, and understandably so.

 

[lcwebservices]

Illyria

::noangel:
The question I ask myself is : Will Illyria be part of the final episodes and play a role in it ? I wonder if the writers and producers knew the show was ending, why did they introduce this character ?

What do you guys think ? :: red dev

 

[Hitome]

I don't mind Illyria, but I don't really like her. I don't understand why Fred had to die to get another strong female character on the show. It is really annoying to me that the ordinary nonmagical, nonslayer women on Angel are never allowed to really kick ass. Gunn is a fighter and Wesley somehow became an amazing shot and great at demonslayage, yet Cordy and Fred were always in the background. Cordy's visions kind of precluded her from taking a leading role in fighting. She can't kick ass and have a vision at the same time. Fred, however, had great potential as a character. She was good in the episodes with Jasmine as the only person in LA other than Connor not affected by Jasmine. She was smart, inventive, and successful. I wanted some of that initiative to carry over into S5 Fred.

My thoughts about Illyria are simple. She is an increadibly cool character and hot, but her "birth" didn't really add anything to the show. It's the same Wesley storyline, he looses everything he wants and then goes off on his own. Also Illyria and Wesley's conversations bother me. The dialogue is good but trite. It's the same type of magnificent- fallen-great-evil-being stuff that I've heard before on other shows and in movies. She's borring after a while, and as much as I like language, Wesley philosophizing with Illyria was good for the ending of an episode, but it is getting old quickly. As for adding a powerful character and complicated storyline, so what. The writers still haven't began to resolve the story archs from last season and haven't resolved many of the early twists in this season. I'm just hoping they pull it all together for the finale.

 

[nerd4hire]

I don't mind Illyria, but I don't really like her. I don't understand why Fred had to die to get another strong female character on the show. It is really annoying to me that the ordinary nonmagical, nonslayer women on Angel are never allowed to really kick ass. Gunn is a fighter and Wesley somehow became an amazing shot and great at demonslayage, yet Cordy and Fred were always in the background. Cordy's visions kind of precluded her from taking a leading role in fighting. She can't kick ass and have a vision at the same time. Fred, however, had great potential as a character. She was good in the episodes with Jasmine as the only person in LA other than Connor not affected by Jasmine. She was smart, inventive, and successful. I wanted some of that initiative to carry over into S5 Fred.

You've got me baffled Hittome. On the one hand you seem to be complaining because Cordy and Fred weren't kickass female characters, then on the other you seem to be saying you miss Cordy and Fred because they were kickass female characters.

I agree with the second one. I think Cordy and Fred were kickass female characters, and I miss them.

Characters evolve and even outright change in the Buffy/Angelverse though - male and female. Gunn and Wes of today are not the same characters that were originally introduced to us. Willow became a witch. Cordy became a half-demon, then a higher power. I don't understand your objection. Is it all change you object to, or just Fred's. You know, of all the Angel characters Fred is probably the one who changed the least. She was driven slightly nuts in Pylea, then she got better, and ever since she's been pretty much the same old Fred. I'll bet Amy Acker is happy for this chance to show what she can do.

Personally I loved Fred. I'm really connecting with Amy Acker's new character Illyria also. She's powerful, yet sad and vunerable. She's hard yet soft. She could kill Wesley with a flick of her wrist, yet she stands there and takes drunken abuse from him. She's tragic yet she got off the best jokes of this week's episode. Illyria is a complex character, with tons of potential.

Plus she's really giving Amy Acker a chance to show off her acting chops, and you gotta love that.

 

[Happy]

It is really annoying to me that the ordinary nonmagical, nonslayer women on Angel are never allowed to really kick ass.

You've got me baffled Hittome. On the one hand you seem to be complaining because Cordy and Fred weren't kickass female characters, then on the other you seem to be saying you miss Cordy and Fred because they were kickass female characters.

She seems to take issue with the fact that only women with "super powers" are able to fight in the Buffyverse. Buffy, Willow, Illyia/Fred. The female heavy hitters don't hold their own unless they have a gimmick.

I'm not sure that is entirely true though. The only real exception to the gimmick thing is Gunn and Gunn's old gang had serveral female members. They seemed to hold their own as well as him.

As far Wes goes, he may be a 'normal human', but he has the 'gun-happy' gimmick going for him. Take away his firearms and he gets beaten by just about everyone (and his guns have been handy all of what, two or three times?). He uses tools in order be make himself more effective. His tools of choice are a couple of .45s, while Willow's are spells, Buffy uses her enhanced abilities granted to her by being the Slayer, and Fred uses her intellect.

Lets try and keep in mind that pre-gun Wes wasn't winning much in the way of fights (heck, he got beaten by Fred, a twig of a woman by anyone's standards, once). Giles has spent more time unconscious than anyone. Xander is known primarily for being the useless Scooby. Lorne is less than stellar in combat. Doyle wasn't the toughest bloke out there. Andrew is inept etc. etc. etc.

The only guys who really kick any butt in the Buffyverse have been Angel, Spike, and Gunn (so two out of three are blood sucking monsters). For the girls team we have Buffy, Willow, Kennedy, Faith, Illyria, Glory, Jasmine, etc. etc. etc..

If anyone should take issue with being unfairly portrayed as 'weak' in the Buffyverse then is should be the guys.

 

[nerd4hire]

She seems to take issue with the fact that only women with "super powers" are able to fight in the Buffyverse. Buffy, Willow, Illyia/Fred. The female heavy hitters don't hold their own unless they have a gimmick.

I still don't get it. You mean, it's a television series about characters with super powers, and she's upset because some of the female characters get super powers too. I'd think she'd be more upset if they didn't.

Surely she's not suggesting only the men should have the super powers, but the women without superpowers should beat them up anyway.

I'm really having trouble making sense of this.

 

[Happy]

I still don't get it. You mean, it's a television series about characters with super powers, and she's upset because some of the female characters get super powers too. I'd think she'd be more upset if they didn't.

Surely she's not suggesting only the men should have the super powers, but the women without superpowers should beat them up anyway.

I'm really having trouble making sense of this.

No, I still don't think you're quite there, but close. What I think she's taking issue with (and feel free to correct me if I'm wrong Hitome) is that the non-super powered women of the Buffyverse aren't effective fighters.

Gunn is a non-super powered man and he is an effective fighter.

What I believe she's saying is that she is annoyed that there is no non-super powered Gunn-equivalent women.

What I've stated is that super powers are really just a tool to make one more effective and almost every character, male or female, has had to rely on such things. Gunn is the main exception, however, Cordy was also in that boat. She may not have spent as much time fighting as Gunn, but that's just because she had other uses as well (so she could fight and do other things, unlike Gunn who until this season was just muscle).

In the end I think both sexes have been portrayed as "kicking butt". I do, however, think that more of the butt kickers, and the more effective ones, have traditionally been women in the Buffyverse. So, while I see her point I tend to disagree with it, and in fact, feel almost completely the opposite to some degree.

 

[nerd4hire]

Uh...yeah Happy, I get your point, and that one makes sense to me. I'm still having trouble with HitToMe's though.

No, I still don't think you're quite there, but close. What I think she's taking issue with (and feel free to correct me if I'm wrong Hitome) is that the non-super powered women of the Buffyverse aren't effective fighters.

It's good to know I'm close. I was beginning to think I was just thick.

If the complaint is Fred wasn't an effective fighter as a human why does HitToMe say

She was good in the episodes with Jasmine as the only person in LA other than Connor not affected by Jasmine. She was smart, inventive, and successful.

Didn't Fred save Angel in Pylea, and didn't she take out both Wesley and Gunn one time when they went crazy?

Fred's saved or taken out pretty much the whole fang gang and a good chunk of LA's demon population at one time or another. Remember her with that flame-thrower?

So is HitToMe saying she wants Fred to be more powerful than that, but she doesn't want her to have super powers? I don't get it, why? More specifically why does Fred not being even more powerful than the kickass power-woman character she was make Illyria a bad character?

 

[Happy]

So is HitToMe saying she wants Fred to be more powerful than that, but she doesn't want her to have super powers? I don't get it, why? More specifically why does Fred not being even more powerful than the kickass power-woman character she was make Illyria a bad character?

Fred was a thinker and a planner but not really a butt kicker. Generally she'd out think her enemies, not kick the snot out of them. Essentially if I'm reading her right, Hitome would like to see "normal" women front and center more often for the fighting which is something we really haven't seen much of. Cordy could fight but often didn't, instead fading into the background during the fight scenes. Fred, being the petite little elfin lass she is, obviously is also a "fray adjacent" character.

What seems to be annoying her, and perhaps she'd be better able to express this than myself (and hopefully will when she sees this since I seem to be doing a piss poor job of it), is that the show could be seen to convey the message that the only way that women are capable of being strong and handling themselves is if they have some kind of outside help.

Also, this line...

I don't understand why Fred had to die to get another strong female character on the show

...seems to suggest that she feels that there are too few characters who are women on AtS and that they probably could have spared Fred and brought in someone else for Illyria. An idea I agree with to an extent. There are too few women on AtS, but if someone else had become Illyria, it would taken pretty much all the drama out the last two episodes.


Side Note - In regards to ...

Hmmm... interesting suggestion. Has anyone contacted the Devil? I mean, I ain't using my soul at the moment. It seems like a small price to pay for a few more seasons of the best show on television.

Yeah, I already talked to him... no dice. Apparently he actually is responsible for Survivor and its clones. He just doesn't want the competition. Guess he thinks that if there are other options out there he might miss out on even more people selling their souls by jumping on the reality TV bandwagon to Hell.

 

[nerd4hire]

So if I understand you correctly either HitToMe is saying she wants a tiny little woman like Fred to put her dukes up and challenge the Sahjans and The Beasts of ATVS, or she's saying she wants Angel to be more like Buffy.

Either way, my response would be..."Huh?"

Why should Fred have to have fistfights to prove she's a powerful women. What's wrong with being smart?

Angel is full of powerful female characters. I'll name a few: Kate, Lilah, Buffy, Faith, Willow, Cordelia, Fred, Season 5 Harmony, the Electric Woman, Jasmine, Eve, Nina, Dana. Even Fred's mother kills the odd demon. Sometimes both the male and female supporting characters die. Sometimes they leave. Sometimes they stick around.

True, ATVS doesn't have any noticeable "girl power" agenda. What's wrong with that? It's Angel not Buffy. Girl Power was Buffy's thing. Angel's is redemption (for males and females). And anyway there's still a lot of powerful female characters on the show - always has been.

Oh and here's another name to add to the list of strong female characters on Angel - Illyria

 

[Happy]

Why should Fred have to have fistfights to prove she's a powerful women. What's wrong with being smart?

I don't think anyone's suggesting that there is anything wrong with being smart. The suggestion was that it might be nice to show "normal" women as more capable in certain areas. Think back, there were actually a lot of guys put off by BtVS because the male characters were Xander, who was totally useless, and Giles who was all brains and no brawn while Buffy (and later Willow, Faith, etc.) were kicking butt and taking names as well as occasionally showing off some smarts.

I mean, how many "male-Slayer" fan fics are there out there? In an action show (suggest differently if you will) a great deal of importance is placed on how much damage you can inflict.

Angel is full of powerful female characters. I'll name a few: Kate, Lilah, Buffy, Faith, Willow, Cordelia, Fred, Season 5 Harmony, the Electric Woman, Dana.

Yes, but they either aren't fighters, or have to cheat by possessing superpowers to hold their own.

They're not the main character, but the name of the show is Angel, not Buffy.

I agree, to an extent. However I can also see Hitome's point, also to an extent. Thing is, BtVS seemed to be very "girl power" while AtS is becoming a little bit "boy power". Both shows seem to be prone to separating the sexes into two groups those able to handle themselves mentally and physically, and those who can only do so mentally.

 

[nerd4hire]

So what are you saying? Buffy shouldn't have had super powers, because if she does it's anti-girl.

Because if Buffy can have super-powers and still be pro-woman, why can't Illyria?

Hey Happy, just for the Hell of it... What do you personally think of Illyria?

 

[Happy]

So what are you saying? Buffy shouldn't have had super powers, because if she does it's anti-girl.

Because if Buffy can have super-powers and still be pro-woman, why can't Illyria?

Actually, yes, I'm saying that Buffy's super powers do in fact detract from the "pro-girl" message. I mean, it suggests that Buffy can handle herself because she has powers (ones granted by a group of men), not because of anything that actually has to do with her as a person.

Yes, it has been shown that Buffy is a hero due to who she is, but she is capable because of what she is... the Slayer. That does kind of lessen the "girl power" message. I wouldn't say it goes so far as to make the show anti-girl, but it does muddy the feminist message that it was supposed to deliver.

 

[nerd4hire]

But if Buffy fought the master, and she didn't have super-powers, the Master would have killed her - this time for good. Would that have been a more positive feminist message.

I always thought the feminist message was less about the importance of physical power, and more about how you use and are appreciated for the gifts you do have. Fred was smart. Illyria is tough. They're both powerful female characters.

BTW. You missed my edit on the previous post. I was asking you what you personally thought of Illyria. How far do you think she sets the feminist movement back, really?

I've got to go to sleep now. I'll get up and argue with you some more tomorrow.

s'long.

 

[Happy]

But if Buffy fought the master, and she didn't have super-powers, the Master would have killed her - this time for good. Would that have been a more positive feminist message.

I didn't say the super power 'crutch' destroyed the feminist message, just took it down a peg or two. I mean, we've seen Buffy non-super powered and she turned into a frightened girl who was bullied by a couple of drunks. With all her training she should still know how to defend herself, Slayer or not.

I always thought the feminist message was less about the importance of physical power, and more about how you use and are appreciated for the gifts you do have. Fred was smart. Illyria is tough. They're both powerful female characters.

True... to an extent. The idea of feminism is that women are equal to men. The feminist ideal is that women can survive on their own without a "male protector". The super powers which many of the tougher female characters possess could be interpreted as a "man substitute". It could be used to suggest that women can't fend for themselves without some form of outside help.

Hey Happy, just for the Hell of it... What do you personally think of Illyria?

The character has potential. I don't think we've really seen enough of her for me to make a judgment on her. What I've seen though I have liked and found interesting. I'd like to see where they're going with the character and whether Wes, as grey as he is, will sway her to the light or whether she will sway him to the dark. At this point I'd say it could still go either way.

Illyria. How far do you think she sets the feminist movement back, really?

I think it would take more than just one character to set the feminist movement back. I do think that Whedon and the Buffyverse in general has had a more or less positive effect. There are, however, aspects which could be interpreted negatively.

In the end though, I judge my entertainment more by whether or not it entertains me (which is a novel idea to some) then whether it agrees with my personal views and opinions, it's social impact and the messages that it conveys (though it is fun to tear it to shreds, after having enjoyed it or not, on those bases).

 

[WiccanSlayer]

Ok, Let me first contribute to how I feel about Illyria, Then I'll deal with the other issue 😛

In my opinion I like Illyria, But I never wanted Fred to die. I wished like others have said that Fred could have stayed and someone else was brought in as Illyria, or somehow Fred's essence is brought back into her body so that both of them are there. I guess I'll just stop there, Since I'm beginning to confuse myself. So overall I like Illyria, shes strong, powerful, tough, and shes new to the world, but I still LOVE fred. So I would prefer Fred over Illyria anyday 😀

Now about what Happy and nerd4hire have been talking about. I think what Hitome (Has anybody thought of PMing her so she could post what she really meant lol) was talking about is why does every woman in AtS have to have some super-power or magickal side to them to make them kick-ass? Excluding Buffy the show, since I don't think she was talking about Buffy and such. Buffy as the Slayer is meant to have Super-Powers, but as she demonstrated before when she lost her Super-Powers she could kick ass either way. Although her Slayer abilitles helped her out alot. I think what Hitome meant is like Gunn, He has no powers and such but he can still kick ass. Fred, uses her smarts to kill demons and such but in Physical combat she would be pretty much useless

"Fred's saved or taken out pretty much the whole fang gang and a good chunk of LA's demon population at one time or another. Remember her with that flame-thrower?"- Nerd4Hire

Well yeah, Give me a Flame-Thrower and I could handle myself too. But Fred in HAND to HAND combat would have been useless, Angel trained Cordy and she demonstrated she could kick her amount of ass. But where as Fred always used her Smarts and intellect (Theres nothing wrong with that) but it would be intresting to have Angel or even Cordy train Fred for Physical combat too so she could fair well in hand to hand combat. Instead of ALWAYS relying on her smarts and such
Atleast thats my take on it, That why can't a 'Normal' female character (That is NOT a Guest on the show and is on full-time like Fred- Excluding Jasmine etc) kick ass?

Hitome, Sorry if what I said up there was completly wrong. I just needed to add my 2-cents 😀