Hey guys! I'm new to these forums. Sorry if this has been answered elsewhere, but I was wondering what are the best comics and books to read for these 2 series? I've watched both series completely but have not read anything yet. Also, if some1 knows the best reading order, that would be great. Thanks in advance.
Well, UJ4bears this question does get asked a lot. In this case it's OK though. It gets asked a lot, because it's a question a lot of people have a legitimate reason for asking.
Let's do this then. I'll answer it here in as much detail as possible. Any mistakes, or disagreements will no doubt be tweaked by my fellow Buffy scholars. 😉 I'll then change the title, and link to this thread in the Whedonverse Index, and anytime the question comes up again in the future it can be linked to there.
OK, so the first thing you have to be aware of is the issue of canon. From a Whedonverse standpoint, at this time canon appears to mean anything judged 'official' by having been written by or endorsed specifically by Joss Whedon. It sounds simple, but it's gotten tricky. At least one comic series - Angel: Long Night's Journey - appears to be Joss endorsed, yet it is not generally accepted as canon. What I mean is you won't see people making LNJ claims on a message board such as the gypsy curse was not meant for Angel. It was meant for another vampire.
You will however hear Buffy Season 8 claims made. Support for a Dawn/Xander relationship, or counter-argument for to the claim Faith has underlying lesbian tendencies, and other references. Buffy Season 8 is generally accepted as canon by fandom at large, although there are some who still think only the TV series is canon.
Years ago, during the time Buffy Season 7, Joss wrote a comic series for Dark Horse called Fray. This one is considered Buffyverse canon, and story details weave through Buffyverse mythology. In fact Fray (a future slayer) makes an appearance in Buffy season 8.
There are 2 background series to the mythology of Buffy and Angel. They are called Tales of the Slayers, and Tales of the Vampire. These never received an official endorsement from Whedon as canon, however, Joss was involved with them in at least a capacity as co-writer, and details of TotS, and TotV have been recently inter-woven with the canon Buffy Season 8. They are therefore accepted as canon by the greater majority of fandom, although there are those who disagree on the grounds Joss's endorsement was never made publicly.
Joss did make a public canon endorsement of the Angel series, Angel: After the Fall. This one is generally considered canon and offers answers to the questions left open by the Angel Season 5 finale Not Fade Away. I notice however details from A:AtF are rarely if ever used to add support to discussion of issues discussed in the Angel television series. That might be worth considering. Also A:AtF does not have the popular readership Buffy Season 8 does. It's a cult within a cult. Nevertheless even the fans who don't like the series generally answer the question 'is A:AtF canon?', with a yes.
Comics are being spun from A:AtF. An example of that is Spike:After the Fall. Canon begins to get watered down a bit here. As far as I know Joss never publicly endorsed S:AtF. The writer and publisher however have made claims he endorsed it behind the scenes.
One other oddity is Origin. It's a story, I believe you can find in the recently released Omnibus series of TPBs (we'll get to TPBs later). It is a story spun from the original unedited Joss Whedon screenplay for the Buffy movie starring Kristy Swanson. Joss has said publically words to the effect he pretty much considers this canon. Fandom generally accepts it as such.
There was a series of Buffy comics put out by Dark Horse in the early days. It is not generally considered canon. It's kind of hit and miss. Some issues are even good. You can find them collected in a series of Trade Paperbacks called Omnibus. Omnibus #1 is the one with the canon story Origin.
A trade paperback, or a TPB is a collection of comic issues under a single cover. You can find them for Fray, Tales of the Slayers, Tales of the Vampires, 5 issues arcs of the Buffy Season 8 series, Angel: Long Night's Journey, and the Buffy Omnibus series. I'm not so much into the After the Fall, so I don't know about that one, but I'd imagine they have, or will have TPBs. There have also been definitely non-canon Angel related comics put out by the A:AtF publisher IDW, and the Buffy Season 8 publisher Dark Horse. I don't know the status of TPBs there.
It's possible of course, none of this interests you. You may simply want an opinion on what's best. My opinion - Fray, or Buffy Season 8.
None of the novels are canon. Joss doesn't contribute, or even read them. A lot of people like at least some of them, though. There's a Buffy books discussion group here at Buffy boards. They could tell you more about the books there, I bet.
Hey guys! I'm new to these forums. Sorry if this has been answered elsewhere, but I was wondering what are the best comics and books to read for these 2 series? I've watched both series completely but have not read anything yet. Also, if some1 knows the best reading order, that would be great. Thanks in advance.
Well, if you go by Brian Lynch (After the Fall's co-Producer, billed after Joss Whedon) Spike: Asylum & Spike: Shadow Puppets have been grafted into canon. And Joss has been quoted saying that Buffy Season Eight, Fray and Angel: After the Fall are all canon.
So chronologically speaking, the best sequence for canon comics is:
1.) Spike: Asylum [2003/2004] (takes place during Angel season 5 after "Destiny" [05x08] and before "Power Play" [05x21]).
2.) Spike: Shadow Puppets [2004] (takes place after Spike: Asylum and after "Smile Time" [05x14], but before "Power Play" [05x21]).
3.) Angel: After the Fall Vol. 1 (containing issues #1-#5) [2004] (takes place a few months after "Not Fade Away" [05x22])
4.) Angel: After the Fall Vol. 2 "First Night" (containing issues #6-#8) [2004] (a flashback that picks up right after Angel says "Let's go to work" in "Not Fade Away" [05x22])
5a.) Spike: After the Fall (issues #1-#4, the complete miniseries) [2004] (picks up where Angel: After the Fall Vol. 2 "First Night" left off)
5b.) Angel: After the Fall Vol. 3 & Vol. 4 (containing issues #9-#17) [2004] (continues the story from the previous After the Fall issues) ONGOING.
6.) Angel: Aftermath (issues #18-#23) [2004/2005] (continues the story from the previous After the Fall issues) NOT YET RELEASED, beginning its run next month.
7a.) Buffy Season Eight Vol. 1 "The Long Way Home" (containing issues #1-#5) [2006] (takes place well over a year after "Chosen" [07x22] and around a year after the conclusion of "Angel: After the Fall").
7b.) Yet to be revealed third Angel story produced by Brian Lynch (Joss Whedon's co-producer of After the Fall).
8.) Buffy Season Eight Vol. 2 "No Future for You" (containing issues #6-#10) [2006] (takes place where Vol. 1 ended).
9.) Buffy Season Eight Vol. 3 "Wolves at the Gate" (containing issues #11-#15) [2006/2007] (takes place where Vol. 2 ended).
10a.) Fray (issues #1-#8, the complete miniseries) [~2200] (while the story is set in the future [~23rd Century], it should be read before Buff S8 Vol. 4 since
Buffy meets Fray
in "Time of Your Life.")
10b.) Tales of the Slayer "Tales" [~2200] ("Tales of the Slayers" is a collection of canon short stories about the different Slayers. The short story "Tales" takes place directly after Fray ends. It should be read before Buff S8 Vol. 4 since
Buffy meets Fray after the events of this story
in "Time of Your Life.")
10c.) Buffy Season Eight Vol. 4 "Time of Your Life" (containing issues #16-#20) [2007/
~2200
] (takes place where Vol. 4 ended and part of the story takes place
after the Fray stories when Buffy meets Fray via time travel
).
11.) Buffy Season Eight Vol. 5 "Predators and Prey" (containing issues #21-#25) [2007] (takes place where Vol. 4 ended) ONGOING.
Hope this helps. And the years in the brackets (like [2004]) aren't the publication dates, they're an approximation of when they take place.
1. All episodes of Buffy the Vampire Slayer, the TV series
2. All episodes of Angel, the TV series
3. The "Origin" comic (but see below)
4. Fray
5. Tales of the Slayers
6. Tales of the Vampires
7. Buffy Season 8 comics
8. Angel: After the Fall comics including Spike: After the Fall and Aftermath
9. Some elements of the Buffy RPG (e.g. Faith and Kendra's last names)
I feel comfortable in citing any of the above as common reality when discussing the Buffyverse, and uncomfortable citing anything else.
"The Origin" comic is not by Joss but is based directly on his original screenplay for the 1992 Buffy movie, which got mangled beyond recognition by the Kuzuis. Joss has said that this adaptation isn't perfect, but can be accepted as canon unless and until he comes up with something more definitive. I consider it canonical except for the bits at the end that segue into the non-canonical "Viva Las Buffy" story. (Which I wish was canon, because Buffy looks so great in that sexy casino coat-check girl outfit).
1. All episodes of Buffy the Vampire Slayer, the TV series
2. All episodes of Angel, the TV series
3. The "Origin" comic (but see below)
4. Fray
5. Tales of the Slayers
6. Tales of the Vampires
7. Buffy Season 8 comics
8. Angel: After the Fall comics including Spike: After the Fall and Aftermath
9. Some elements of the Buffy RPG (e.g. Faith and Kendra's last names)
I feel comfortable in citing any of the above as common reality when discussing the Buffyverse, and uncomfortable citing anything else.
"The Origin" comic is not by Joss but is based directly on his original screenplay for the 1992 Buffy movie, which got mangled beyond recognition by the Kuzuis. Joss has said that this adaptation isn't perfect, but can be accepted as canon unless and until he comes up with something more definitive. I consider it canonical except for the bits at the end that segue into the non-canonical "Viva Las Buffy" story. (Which I wish was canon, because Buffy looks so great in that sexy casino coat-check girl outfit).
Well Angel's story in Viva directly contradicts on-screen canon. Origin has at least two noticeable continuity errors. Origin does NOT have Buffy missing the vamp's heart her first time out, a S2 flashback shows Buffy missing his heart and Buffy mentions it to Dawn in S7. Also, vampires are portrayed with random demonic features, contrary to Buffyverse continuity.
Asylum & Shadow Puppets are more canonical than Origin since the two don't contradict continuity, their events are referenced in canon and the characters that originated in them have been seen in canon (with full memory of the events of those stories). But they're not on par with Season Eight or After the Fall which were plotted by Joss as he did with the series.
Aftermath, while I take it as canon, it's been pretty dubious based on its author's comments and the implication that Joss has had zero involvement with it except for selecting the author.
I also take Tales as canon, especially the Fray story, but since the Giles & Fray stories are the only ones mentioned in works that Joss has confirmed as canon, again I think Asylum & Shadow Puppets are equally canon since the latter are relatively heavily referenced in canon.
Well Angel's story in Viva directly contradicts on-screen canon. Origin has at least two noticeable continuity errors. Origin does NOT have Buffy missing the vamp's heart her first time out, a S2 flashback shows Buffy missing his heart and Buffy mentions it to Dawn in S7. Also, vampires are portrayed with random demonic features, contrary to Buffyverse continuity.
Asylum & Shadow Puppets are more canonical than Origin since the two don't contradict continuity, their events are referenced in canon and the characters that originated in them have been seen in canon (with full memory of the events of those stories). But they're not on par with Season Eight or After the Fall which were plotted by Joss as he did with the series.
I haven't actually read either Asylum or Shadow Puppets... but if they're directly referenced in canon, I would probably accept them as canon pending any clarification from Joss.
Asylum is the one that introduced Betta George, isn't it?
Aftermath, while I take it as canon, it's been pretty dubious based on its author's comments and the implication that Joss has had zero involvement with it except for selecting the author.
If I'm not mistaken, I think the Aftermath comics will actually continue the numbering system of After the Fall (#18, #19, etc.), which indicates they're to be considered continuations of it. Meaning they're canon. Joss may not have written or even outlined it, but I'm sure he'll sign off on it before it goes out the door.
Spike: After the Fall is an interesting case in that the covers credit only Lynch and Urru... and not Whedon, as the A:AtF covers do. That might just indicate that he didn't outline the plot, as he did with A:AtF, but whether he approved it as canon or not is unclear.
I also take Tales as canon, especially the Fray story, but since the Giles & Fray stories are the only ones mentioned in works that Joss has confirmed as canon, again I think Asylum & Shadow Puppets are equally canon since the latter are relatively heavily referenced in canon.
I haven't actually read either Asylum or Shadow Puppets... but if they're directly referenced in canon, I would probably accept them as canon pending any clarification from Joss.
Asylum is the one that introduced Betta George, isn't it?
Asylum introduces Betta George & Beck (she cameos in After the Fall with a small speaking role). Shadow Puppets is its sequel both penned by Lynch & Urro (the guys working for Joss on After the Fall.
Joss didn't write them, but he likes them and I think it was his idea to bring those characters into canon. By the way, I mistakenly said that "Smile Time" [05x14], but before "Power Play" [05x21], it's actually made clear that it takes place after "Shells" [05x16].
If I'm not mistaken, I think the Aftermath comics will actually continue the numbering system of After the Fall (#18, #19, etc.), which indicates they're to be considered continuations of it. Meaning they're canon. Joss may not have written or even outlined it, but I'm sure he'll sign off on it before it goes out the door.
Same argument I make to say its canon, but Armstrong, the author has been asked twice and has always given evasive answers. Usually along the lines of yes, they can be disregarded from canon if they suck, which I find confusing. It would also be the first time that official canon that progresses the story is made without Joss telling the writers how it wants everything to go down. But we're in the same boat, I'll expect it to be canon.
Spike: After the Fall is an interesting case in that the covers credit only Lynch and Urru... and not Whedon, as the A:AtF covers do. That might just indicate that he didn't outline the plot, as he did with A:AtF, but whether he approved it as canon or not is unclear.
Same argument I make to say its canon, but Armstrong, the author has been asked twice and has always given evasive answers. Usually along the lines of yes, they can be disregarded from canon if they suck, which I find confusing. It would also be the first time that official canon that progresses the story is made without Joss telling the writers how it wants everything to go down. But we're in the same boat, I'll expect it to be canon.
I suspect Armstrong is just trying not to overstep his bounds and presume to speak for Joss. But it would be very confusing to offer a story that's a direct narrative continuation of a canonical story, by the same publisher and with the same numbering system, and have it not be canonical.
I suspect Armstrong is just trying not to overstep his bounds and presume to speak for Joss. But it would be very confusing to offer a story that's a direct narrative continuation of a canonical story, by the same publisher and with the same numbering system, and have it not be canonical.
^Which means next to nothing since supposedly, due to copyright law anything bearing the Buffy or Angel name need to be approved by him. That includes things that are explicitly non-canon.
Kelley Armstrong said:
Is it going to be canon?
Ah, there's the question and the answer is...it depends. It will follow from the events of Angel: After the Fall, it will continue that storyline and subsequent storylines will follow from it. So, yes, it's considered canon. That said, though, I know to many readers, if it didn't come from Joss Whedon himself, it's not canon, and I'm fine with that. If readers don't like my contribution to this amazing universe, they're free to dismiss it as some kind of alternate reality blip in the series. Just pretend it never happened.
BB: On your message board, you were asked about the canonization of Angel: Aftermath. Could you elaborate on your feelings about canon vs. non-canon?
KA: I leave it up to the reader. Yes, Aftermath is intended to be canon in the sense that it "counts" - it continues the main storyline of the series. But if a reader feels that anything not written by Joss Whedon isn't canon, I can understand that. Or if they really didn't like my story and decide to wipe it from memory, I'd be okay with that, too (well, okay with the "it's not canon" part...not so much with the "it sucked" part!) With a universe that so many writers add to, I think it comes down to the fans to decide, for themselves, what they consider canon.
While she said "yes it's canon" both times, note that she tells us that "it counts" and how future stories will follow from it, but she goes onto say that if fans don't like it they can disregard it as an alternate universe which makes no sense!
If future stories reference Aftermath it would be impossible to disregard it as AU or "pretend it never happened." I don't know, I'll count it as canon, but I still say it's dubious.
Also according to Whedonesque, Joss wasn't even involved in choosing Armstrong to write this (nor has he even had any recorded contact with her regarding the story), she's dealt solely with IDW...
[br][/br] Edit:
[br][/br]
At the very least I think her answers are very unprofessional. Joss & co. like to joke around, but Joss would never only give two interviews, and really answer nothing in both of them.
I don't really love the fact that her website looks pretty unprofessional also, filled with pentagrams and whatnot, either.
She doesn't sound like she has a lot of confidence in her abilities here. Quit apologizing for the story before it's even published. Chances are if you've gotten this far, you don't suck.
But it sounds like Joss needs to be a bit more proactive here. Most people are going to consider this by default a continuation of AtF. Therefore it's in his best interests for the sake of his own reputation to make sure it doesn't suck. If it does, I don't want to hear him complaining and disavowing and trashing it. You have creative control, Joss. Use it.
Also... here again we have someone acting as if canonicity/non-canonicity is a matter of fan opinion. It's not. The whole point of canon is that this is material we can all commonly accept as "reality" within the fandom. That has no meaning if everyone gets to decide for themselves. Reality doesn't change based on whether we like it or not. Neither does fictional reality ("canon").
She doesn't sound like she has a lot of confidence in her abilities here. Quit apologizing for the story before it's even published. Chances are if you've gotten this far, you don't suck.
But it sounds like Joss needs to be a bit more proactive here. Most people are going to consider this by default a continuation of AtF. Therefore it's in his best interests for the sake of his own reputation to make sure it doesn't suck. If it does, I don't want to hear him complaining and disavowing and trashing it. You have creative control, Joss. Use it.
Also... here again we have someone acting as if canonicity/non-canonicity is a matter of fan opinion. It's not. The whole point of canon is that this is material we can all commonly accept as "reality" within the fandom. That has no meaning if everyone gets to decide for themselves. Reality doesn't change based on whether we like it or not. Neither does fictional reality ("canon").
Another thing was that IDW was publicizing that Brian Lynch (AtF Co-Producer) was working on Aftermath with Armstrong, but she said that she spoke to him, but he has essentially zero involvement with this.
It's kinda funny in retrospect how everyone used to complain in the latter seasons when Joss had limited involvement. Since 1, he left people like Greenwalt & Fury in charge who helped give the characters voices in the first place and 2 Joss didn't even allow them to make any of the major decisions, even in his lowest involvement seasons he outlined how everything would play out--the head writers really just added the specific dialog.
Where with Aftermath this lady has had no background in the Whedonverse, Joss didn't choose her, and like you said Andrew she doesn't sound like she's even confident in her abilities. And she's been given more control over the series than Greenwalt, Fury, Noxon or anyone else ever had outside of Joss...
Either he or Mike Richardson (his boss) mentioned how they regretted not picking up the Angel license when they had the chance, so I'd suspect (given how well Buffy season 8 is doing) that they will do so if the opportunity presents itself.
I don't know the terms of the IDW license but judging by the sheer volume of Angel books they're pumping out, I'd say they're trying to beat some sort of deadline.
I'm assuming (perhaps wrongly?) that it's Joss, and not Fox, who decides which companies get the license. Given that both companies seem to have done very good jobs with the properties, I don't know whether he'd stick with the two-publisher system or bring them together under one roof for easier integration. Dark Horse has much better distribution... their comics actually get carried in bookstore chains whereas IDW's seldom do.
Either he or Mike Richardson (his boss) mentioned how they regretted not picking up the Angel license when they had the chance, so I'd suspect (given how well Buffy season 8 is doing) that they will do so if the opportunity presents itself.
I don't know the terms of the IDW license but judging by the sheer volume of Angel books they're pumping out, I'd say they're trying to beat some sort of deadline.
I'm assuming (perhaps wrongly?) that it's Joss, and not Fox, who decides which companies get the license. Given that both companies seem to have done very good jobs with the properties, I don't know whether he'd stick with the two-publisher system or bring them together under one roof for easier integration. Dark Horse has much better distribution... their comics actually get carried in bookstore chains whereas IDW's seldom do.
I hope the Buffyverse can be under a single franchise again, but I imagine Dark Horse would be in for a fight. After the Fall is apparently the most popular series IDW has ever published, and they own the rights to franchises like CSI, Underworld, The Shield, 24, Speed Racer, Transformers, Star Trek, Dick Tracy, Doctor Who and G.I. Joe., none of which come close to After the Fall's success.
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