The problem with Buffy is...

[Red Sox Nation]

everytime I rewatch both Buffy & Angel, I keep convincing myself that they're the perfect shows & they have no faults.
I rewatch both every six months or so, currently I'm in AS4 BS7.

this time I said "you know what? nothing's perfect".

I'll start with both shows & the faults they have in common:
- the biggest plot hole in both shows (& one of the biggest all time in any show) is the whole soul thing, let's face it, no matter how you flip the coin, it is a plot hole & there is no rational explanation to it, the problem with us Buffy/Angel fans is we turn a blind eye on anything bad about both shows.

- let me tell you a little bedtime story, once upon a time there was a vampire.....vampire slayer by trade, so he leaves her to go to LA, he doesn't want to put her in any danger...now let's take a break before I finish that story, Cordelia was one of the most critical characters in the show of Angel having a relationship, that was in Buffy's case, Darla's case, & Fred's case...ok I'll finish up the story, that vampire that skipped Sunnydale to stay away from Buffy suddenly decides that he won't endanger anybody if he fell in love again...wait, why did he leave Sunnydale then? that's big plot hole #2 (so some executive decides to tell the writers put in romance in the show & they just do it? it was pretty obvious it was forced anyway).

- now we're done with the huge plot holes, what's up with the "we don't kill humans" double standard, the case works for Warren because he killed Tara with a gun & can be dealt with using human laws. now you're telling me letting Lilah walk around ruining people's lives under the protection of the big H (human) is a noble thing? there is no human law that stops her from using anything supernatural, so the answer is to give her empty threats every time you see her & let her go on ruining people's lives because she's human.

now the problems with Buffy:

- I could explain this point in one word..."Dawn", but I'll go into detail on what's wrong with her character, let's forget that she's the most annoying character ever, let's forget that she gets on anybody's last remaining nerve, let's forget that high pitched voice that makes you wanna smash the screen, & let's forget that after season 5, she was in the show just for the sake of having her in the show...ok did you forget all the bad stuff about Dawn? yeah, my point, force a new character down our throat in the middle of the show, tell us that she was there since the beginning, & expect us to care about her character.

- speaking of Dawn, are the monks really so stupid that they thought turning the key into a human would be the easiest way to protect it? every time I watch season 5 I go like "those monks are just morons", why didn't they destroy it when they realized they couldn't control its power? alright, there's another option, why not turn it into something EASIER to protect, make it look like an actual key & let Buffy know that she should protect it, Glory wouldn't even have a clue WHAT or WHERE it is.

- End of the World = good storyline, overusing End of the World = very very very bad, no wonder Season 6 & 7 of Buffy weren't loved by many fans, the show changed from unique into a template...insert big bad name, insert the lame speech that started to feel cheesy (it was good in the earlier parts of the show), & insert the phrase "this is bigger than we've ever faced before", & it starts to be a chore, you can say "this is the worst thing we've ever faced" so much before it starts to feel lame.

- why does every character dwarves into a damsel in distress whenever he/she's on Buffy, but you get something real in Angel? Spike & the whole scooby gang having problems killing a single vampire was really embarassing, the same goes for Faith, not to mention Angel. I know Buffy turned into a self-centered person by Season 6, but the show really started to feel like Buffy-centered (if you get the sarcasm) & everyone around her is weak & can't handle himself, sure she's the strongest one of the gang, but that doesn't mean everyone else can't handle himself.

- I don't mean this one to be offensive, but the show started to feel a little "girlish", especially with the absence of Angel & Ozz, it lacked the "male" feel to it.

alright, I'm done with Buffy, now lets start with Angel:
- the seasons structure is so invloving that you sometimes feel you need a "break" episode, the show kept going from the Season 1 Finale up to the Season 4 Finale, there were some pretty good stand alone episodes, but they're very far from each other & you feel like you need to breath & its too much to take in all at once from one episode to the next.



ok you noticed I criticized Buffy more than I criticized Angel, but also notice that I didn't criticize much of Buffy from Season 1 up to Season 4. Angel had its faults, but it was consistent throughout the whole show, Buffy turned into a template later on & started to feel lame, having Dawn around didn't help either.


anyway, Buffy & Angel are still my favorite shows (actually cheers is, but its a sitcom).

 

[StarSlayer]

Some fans (myself included) do like the later seasons, maybe even more so than the earlier seasons. The soul concept also makes sense to me based on my interpretation of the show, so it's not a huge plot hole. At the end of the day, it just depends on the person and the feelings they get when watching. No show is ever really perfect. There's always going to be some things that don't make sense, have some plot holes, OOC moments, continuity errors, editing errors, etc. But for me, at the end of the day, the overall viewing experience is what matters. I love both BtVS and AtS for various reasons, despite any little mishaps I see along the way. 🙂

(P.S. Red Sox? UGH 😛 I'm a Yankee fan 😉)

 

[Red Sox Nation]

I know what you mean, but it seems like they just slap us around & once they tell us vampires can't love, then they can't, then they turn the wheel, they tell us no grief, then turn the wheel, they tell us no remorse, then they turn the wheel. Angelus WAS how vampires were supposed to be, then there was spike, then Darla turned out that she could love, then you got James, Gunn's sister, Harmony, it was just a really big mess. I guess you can make a case that Angelus was actually the different one, but then this means no soul doesn't mean no love or no remorse or no grief, if that's the case, why is there a drastic difference between Angel & Angelus.

Btvs was amazing from S1-4 (4 had a weirdo big bad, but apart from Adam it was good), S3 was actually perfection of both shows. I know some fans actually like later seasons, but I think the majority agree that it started to go downhill after S4, S5 wasn't bad if you count Dawn out though, but then you got Season 6 & the nerds & Jean Grey, then in S7 turning the cool Spike into a wuss (thank god he came back cool in Angel) & the whole potential slayers thing, Spike was holding the show together, & S7 would have been a disaster without him (even boring him). S1 Angel was pretty boring outside the first 9 & last 3 episodes (and faith's episodes). "She" has got to be one of the worst experiences I've ever had on TV, not to mention the pregnant Cordy episode. but it immediately took off in S2, & was never boring again, Angel S5 has got to be the second best Season of both shows behind Btvs S3.


& by the way, yankees are screwed this year. HAHA.

 

[white avenger]

The soul was used as a plot device simply because the writers wanted to make Angel unique from all other vampires, and without that difference, Angel was nothing more than a traiter to his own kind, regardless of how evil his "own kind" actually were. That's what made Spike the REALLY big plot hole. AS much as I love the character, he has no logical reason for acting the way that he did.

 

[Red Sox Nation]

you've got a point, but he wasn't the only one, James from "heartthrobe" acted worse than Spike, Darla also showed that she loved Angel & couldn't get him out of her head.

it was a plot hole not only in the case of Spike but in a lot of instances, that's why its a plot hole, they explain it to you in some way early in the show, & then retcon it, & then reretcon it...it doesn't make any sense.

 

[StarSlayer]

it was a plot hole not only in the case of Spike but in a lot of instances, that's why its a plot hole, they explain it to you in some way early in the show, & then retcon it, & then reretcon it...it doesn't make any sense.

For me, what the Judge says in s2 doesn't make it a plot hole. Angelus had no humanity in him, but Spike and Drusilla did. I don't see Angelus as how all vampires should be (or are), but rather as the extreme version of how vampires could be, which is having no humanity after being sired.

And bring it on, Red Sux 😉

 

[wickedwill]

You know what I think it's the biggest plot hole? Sex with no blood circulation..

 

[Buffyverse Fan]

- let me tell you a little bedtime story, once upon a time there was a vampire.....vampire slayer by trade, so he leaves her to go to LA, he doesn't want to put her in any danger...now let's take a break before I finish that story, Cordelia was one of the most critical characters in the show of Angel having a relationship, that was in Buffy's case, Darla's case, & Fred's case...ok I'll finish up the story, that vampire that skipped Sunnydale to stay away from Buffy suddenly decides that he won't endanger anybody if he fell in love again...wait, why did he leave Sunnydale then? that's big plot hole #2 (so some executive decides to tell the writers put in romance in the show & they just do it? it was pretty obvious it was forced anyway).

But that's what you read into it, what actually happened was Angel (and Joyce) felt that Angel would have kept Buffy from finding even a hint of normalcy. Angel didn't believe it was possible to create a family with Buffy, not to mention the fact that at some point she'd be a senior citizen with a guy who looks 27.

The only time the "danger" thing came into play was when Angel turned human, and realized that he was a liability to Buffy, with Xander-level fighting prowess, and Slayer-level feelings of obligations to humanity.

- now we're done with the huge plot holes, what's up with the "we don't kill humans" double standard, the case works for Warren because he killed Tara with a gun & can be dealt with using human laws. now you're telling me letting Lilah walk around ruining people's lives under the protection of the big H (human) is a noble thing? there is no human law that stops her from using anything supernatural, so the answer is to give her empty threats every time you see her & let her go on ruining people's lives because she's human.

I agree with you here, but "we don't kill humans" existed before Whedon was even born. The concept is that even moderately patriotic "vigilantes" realize that killing even obviously guilty murderers is unpatriotic. In real life, US Attn General Eric Holder takes that to the extreme of giving proud Terrorists fair trials, and in fiction, we have Superman, who could kill every murder in the world before the week was over, but won't put himself "as a god," as opposed to concerned citizen.

now the problems with Buffy:

- I could explain this point in one word..."Dawn", but I'll go into detail on what's wrong with her character, let's forget that she's the most annoying character ever, let's forget that she gets on anybody's last remaining nerve, let's forget that high pitched voice that makes you wanna smash the screen, & let's forget that after season 5, she was in the show just for the sake of having her in the show...ok did you forget all the bad stuff about Dawn? yeah, my point, force a new character down our throat in the middle of the show, tell us that she was there since the beginning, & expect us to care about her character.

- speaking of Dawn, are the monks really so stupid that they thought turning the key into a human would be the easiest way to protect it? every time I watch season 5 I go like "those monks are just morons", why didn't they destroy it when they realized they couldn't control its power? alright, there's another option, why not turn it into something EASIER to protect, make it look like an actual key & let Buffy know that she should protect it, Glory wouldn't even have a clue WHAT or WHERE it is.

This is a principle found in many forms of fiction and mythology. The crux is, if destroyed, it can be re-conjured, but if preserved, the good guys can keep a handle on it. As for Key vs. Human, I've yet to see a key that could defend itself more easily than a human being.

- End of the World = good storyline, overusing End of the World = very very very bad, no wonder Season 6 & 7 of Buffy weren't loved by many fans, the show changed from unique into a template...insert big bad name, insert the lame speech that started to feel cheesy (it was good in the earlier parts of the show), & insert the phrase "this is bigger than we've ever faced before", & it starts to be a chore, you can say "this is the worst thing we've ever faced" so much before it starts to feel lame.

Personally, I didn't find the many beings wanting to end the world to be the suspect part, I questioned how the heroes caught EVERY plot to end the world.

I suppose the answer would be that the ones the Scoobies & Angel Inc miss hit the radar of the Watchers Council, Initiative, or freelancers like Drogyn or Robin.

And again, applying real world situations to the model, there are thousands, if not millions, of anti-Democratic folks out there who would destroy Western Democracy if given the opportunity, yet very few attempts succeed in even making the news.

- why does every character dwarves into a damsel in distress whenever he/she's on Buffy, but you get something real in Angel? Spike & the whole scooby gang having problems killing a single vampire was really embarassing, the same goes for Faith, not to mention Angel. I know Buffy turned into a self-centered person by Season 6, but the show really started to feel like Buffy-centered (if you get the sarcasm) & everyone around her is weak & can't handle himself, sure she's the strongest one of the gang, but that doesn't mean everyone else can't handle himself.

I agree to some extent. To me, Xander was the biggest suspension of disbelief. I'm not saying he should have been at Buffy's level, but by the later seasons, you'd think he'd be noticeably stronger than the non-powered gals who are half his size.

On the other hand, imo, Angel was always portrayed as pretty strong, aside from his days of recovery in S3.

If anything, Buffy wasn't strong enough. Logically, if the Shadow Men & Watchers put their hopes in one girl, she should reasonably many times stronger than her opponents (who outnumber her by the thousands). But that wasn't the case, as she's roughly on par with Alpha Vamps like Angelus, Spike, Kokistos, the Master--arguably weaker than some of them.

- I don't mean this one to be offensive, but the show started to feel a little "girlish", especially with the absence of Angel & Ozz, it lacked the "male" feel to it.

That was the idea. Man, have you ever heard Joss Whedon speak about feminism?

alright, I'm done with Buffy, now lets start with Angel:
- the seasons structure is so invloving that you sometimes feel you need a "break" episode, the show kept going from the Season 1 Finale up to the Season 4 Finale, there were some pretty good stand alone episodes, but they're very far from each other & you feel like you need to breath & its too much to take in all at once from one episode to the next.

They did that on purpose, and I'm one of the few who agrees with you, but I adored the standalone episodes of Angel. The network even told them to do more standalone eps.

I may be a little biased though, because I didn't like the S4 conclusion. David Fury leaked the original plan, and it was sooo much better, but they had to work around the real life death of Glenn Quinn (Doyle). The basic idea, I believe, was that the real
Cordy & Doyle were working to force world peace, and the final showdown would be between Angel & his two closest friends trying to improve the world in that flawed way. But Charisma being pregnant, and Glenn's tragic death left us with the Beast & Jasmine instead of Cordy & Doyle 🙁

 

[Red Sox Nation]

For me, what the Judge says in s2 doesn't make it a plot hole. Angelus had no humanity in him, but Spike and Drusilla did. I don't see Angelus as how all vampires should be (or are), but rather as the extreme version of how vampires could be, which is having no humanity after being sired.

And bring it on, Red Sux 😉

its not what the judge said, it was what everyone said, vampires can't love, vampires have NO REMORSE, vampires have NO GRIEF. not all vampires are the same, every vampire is still different. but they still said a vampire without a soul has no remorse. now what's up with Spike? or Darla? or James?

the yankees will be fighting with the Orioles for last place this year 😛

You know what I think it's the biggest plot hole? Sex with no blood circulation..

haven't thought about that, how the hell do they get an errection?

But that's what you read into it, what actually happened was Angel (and Joyce) felt that Angel would have kept Buffy from finding even a hint of normalcy. Angel didn't believe it was possible to create a family with Buffy, not to mention the fact that at some point she'd be a senior citizen with a guy who looks 27.

The only time the "danger" thing came into play was when Angel turned human, and realized that he was a liability to Buffy, with Xander-level fighting prowess, and Slayer-level feelings of obligations to humanity.

you missed my point, I guess I was too vague (although Angel did have multiple reasons to leave & what you said is one of them), my point was that the Cordelia/Angel relationship doesn't make sense.

I agree with you here, but "we don't kill humans" existed before Whedon was even born. The concept is that even moderately patriotic "vigilantes" realize that killing even obviously guilty murderers is unpatriotic. In real life, US Attn General Eric Holder takes that to the extreme of giving proud Terrorists fair trials, and in fiction, we have Superman, who could kill every murder in the world before the week was over, but won't put himself "as a god," as opposed to concerned citizen.

it always seems to me that its selfish on the humans part, they think they're better than the demons, its ok to walk around killing demons without asking question but its not ok to kill any human at all? even evil humans? that's why I always thought that Dark Angel in S2 was actually doing the right thing, what better to stop the evil than to go to its source? but I digress. evil human = evil demon, good human = good demon, this is the only way that should be done without being ridiculous. its bigotry if done otherwise.

This is a principle found in many forms of fiction and mythology. The crux is, if destroyed, it can be re-conjured, but if preserved, the good guys can keep a handle on it. As for Key vs. Human, I've yet to see a key that could defend itself more easily than a human being.

the key in the Buffyverse could be destroyed, that's why the warriors were after it, the monks didn't destroy it because they wanted to harnass its power, ok once they realized that its power couldn't be harnassed, why not destroy it?

Personally, I didn't find the many beings wanting to end the world to be the suspect part, I questioned how the heroes caught EVERY plot to end the world.

I suppose the answer would be that the ones the Scoobies & Angel Inc miss hit the radar of the Watchers Council, Initiative, or freelancers like Drogyn or Robin.

And again, applying real world situations to the model, there are thousands, if not millions, of anti-Democratic folks out there who would destroy Western Democracy if given the opportunity, yet very few attempts succeed in even making the news.

not only do they know about evey apocalypse, but all those happened on a yearly basis & coincided with the arrival of Buffy, & all of those happened in one place. it seemed ridiculous.
Angel had it the right way, they didn't abuse apocalypse after apocalypse, you know that if you eat the same thing over & over it gets tasteless evantually, even if its your favorite meal.

I agree to some extent. To me, Xander was the biggest suspension of disbelief. I'm not saying he should have been at Buffy's level, but by the later seasons, you'd think he'd be noticeably stronger than the non-powered gals who are half his size.

On the other hand, imo, Angel was always portrayed as pretty strong, aside from his days of recovery in S3.

If anything, Buffy wasn't strong enough. Logically, if the Shadow Men & Watchers put their hopes in one girl, she should reasonably many times stronger than her opponents (who outnumber her by the thousands). But that wasn't the case, as she's roughly on par with Alpha Vamps like Angelus, Spike, Kokistos, the Master--arguably weaker than some of them.

its not that Buffy wasn't strong enough, it was Angel & Spike & those vamps aren't as weak as regular vamps. its because they're from the Master's bloodline. the more down you go the weaker they get, Master > Darla > Angelus > Drusila > Spike, but thats only for raw power, Angel is the most skillful of the bunch & Spike the most aggresive, that's why Angelus beat Buffy in S2, he had the skill, but Buffy still had the strength.

Angelus didn't become the most storied vampire because he was like any vampire, & Angelus & Darla didn't fill half the history books during their period because they were lucky. & Spike always liked to fight that's why he was stronger than his age.

anyway, that real Spike had trouble killing a vampire in Buffy S6 opener, & the whole gang were with him. Xander was never useful & it was weird, look at Wesley, Cordelia, & Fred & how they picked up some skills. aside from the normal humans, Faith always seemed a lot weaker on Buffy, but she was stronger in Ats.

That was the idea. Man, have you ever heard Joss Whedon speak about feminism?

no I haven't, but the show wasn't like that in the early parts, later on you feel like you're stuck with a bunch of girls in some bridal shower or whatever & you're the only guy in there. Ozz had presence in the show even without talking. my friend hate Btvs because of that, but I don't hate it, I just "dislike" the latter seasons.

They did that on purpose, and I'm one of the few who agrees with you, but I adored the standalone episodes of Angel. The network even told them to do more standalone eps.

I may be a little biased though, because I didn't like the S4 conclusion. David Fury leaked the original plan, and it was sooo much better, but they had to work around the real life death of Glenn Quinn (Doyle). The basic idea, I believe, was that the real
Cordy & Doyle were working to force world peace, and the final showdown would be between Angel & his two closest friends trying to improve the world in that flawed way. But Charisma being pregnant, and Glenn's tragic death left us with the Beast & Jasmine instead of Cordy & Doyle

yeah I've heard about that, I've also heard that's why they fired CC, she didn't tell them about the pregnancy until too late & they had to rerewrite the script again, the changed script was Angel vs Cordelia without Doyle, that's why S4 was a big mess & gives everyone mixed feelings.

 

[StarSlayer]

its not what the judge said, it was what everyone said, vampires can't love, vampires have NO REMORSE, vampires have NO GRIEF. not all vampires are the same, every vampire is still different. but they still said a vampire without a soul has no remorse. now what's up with Spike? or Darla? or James?

the yankees will be fighting with the Orioles for last place this year 😛

The Judge's exact words were, "You stink of humanity." He said that to Spike because he shared jealousy and affection for Drusilla. The Judge told Angelus that "there was no humanity" in him. Also, I do think vampires can love (Dru said it, Spike's shown it). I've had this discussion with others before so I'm just gonna leave it at that because I take what the judge says to be very reliable. 🙂 With the remorse and grief, I agree vampires without souls don't truly hate themselves for what they've done until they get their soul, but at the same time, I do think they can feel grief (since Spike did after Buffy died).

And keep telling yourself that about the Yanks 😉

 

[Icarium]

it always seems to me that its selfish on the humans part, they think they're better than the demons, its ok to walk around killing demons without asking question but its not ok to kill any human at all? even evil humans?

But they are better. Well, were better until suddenly a retcon occurred and whole species of demons were revealed to have conscience and capacity to do good.

the key in the Buffyverse could be destroyed, that's why the warriors were after it, the monks didn't destroy it because they wanted to harnass its power, ok once they realized that its power couldn't be harnassed, why not destroy it?

Because they were criminally stupid? 😀

my point was that the Cordelia/Angel relationship doesn't make sense.

True story.

now you're telling me letting Lilah walk around ruining people's lives under the protection of the big H (human) is a noble thing? there is no human law that stops her from using anything supernatural, so the answer is to give her empty threats every time you see her & let her go on ruining people's lives because she's human.

Yes, I think the ridiculous immunity that the Wolfram and Hart personnel got was one of the recurring problems of AtS. They obviously cannot be brought to justice the way other human perpetrators can, so it's either kill them or let them cause more deaths. Even more ridiculous was that any demonic employees never got such immunity. Now, don't get me wrong, I'd rather not have had good demons in the show at all, but they tried to have it both ways and it didn't work - if humans aren't automatically more deserving of chances than demons how come Angel can kill random demon X with a song in his heart while sparing Lilah, Lindsey and the likes in every other episode?

 

[Buffyverse Fan]

you missed my point, I guess I was too vague (although Angel did have multiple reasons to leave & what you said is one of them), my point was that the Cordelia/Angel relationship doesn't make sense.

I didn't really like Cangel, but I think it did make sense. As Wes pointed out, Cordy was more connected to the Good Fight than anyone. Cordy was literally the only one in the entire 'verse who couldn't walk away. She couldn't get rid of the visions, and they kept coming. Even Angel or Buffy could be SOBs, and just leave for an island if they really wanted to.

the key in the Buffyverse could be destroyed, that's why the warriors were after it, the monks didn't destroy it because they wanted to harnass its power, ok once they realized that its power couldn't be harnassed, why not destroy it?

As I said, in most fiction the principle exists that if you destroy something like that, it can be re-conjured. Specifically, we've seen this with Angel's soul, "killed" multiple times, and brought back. The only time it was actually unobtainable was when it was captured, NOT destroyed.

Same goes for the Master, if Buffy hadn't smashed his bones, but kept them

Spoiler

presumably, the Seed couldn't have resurrected him.

not only do they know about evey apocalypse, but all those happened on a yearly basis & coincided with the arrival of Buffy, & all of those happened in one place. it seemed ridiculous.

It's true. Though, in the early seasons, there were only two Apocalypses I believe ("The Zeppo," and "Acathala"). The Master & Mayor couldn't and didn't want to destroy Earth per-say.

its not that Buffy wasn't strong enough, it was Angel & Spike & those vamps aren't as weak as regular vamps. its because they're from the Master's bloodline. the more down you go the weaker they get, Master > Darla > Angelus > Drusila > Spike, but thats only for raw power, Angel is the most skillful of the bunch & Spike the most aggresive, that's why Angelus beat Buffy in S2, he had the skill, but Buffy still had the strength.

You missed my point. The Slayer was meant to be the ultimate Champion for good, to stare down ALL of evil. This seems somewhat unreasonable given single members of "evil" were as strong, if not stronger than her. Say the Master & Angelus double-teamed a Slayer, she'd be dead at their discretion, then multiply that by the thousands of demons vs. one slayer.

anyway, that real Spike had trouble killing a vampire in Buffy S6 opener, & the whole gang were with him. Xander was never useful & it was weird, look at Wesley, Cordelia, & Fred & how they picked up some skills. aside from the normal humans, Faith always seemed a lot weaker on Buffy, but she was stronger in Ats.

See, I wouldn't say Faith. Sure she's stronger than Connor, but he's an entire notch below the top-tier fighters. Overall, I tend to agree with you that Angel just made more sense in general. Angel trained his people, made them "pull their own weight," and didn't let money be such a major distraction. Angel managed to incorporate his income source into his mission, where Buffy had to stay away from fighting evil to flip burgers most of the day.

 

[Red Sox Nation]

The Judge's exact words were, "You stink of humanity." He said that to Spike because he shared jealousy and affection for Drusilla. The Judge told Angelus that "there was no humanity" in him. Also, I do think vampires can love (Dru said it, Spike's shown it). I've had this discussion with others before so I'm just gonna leave it at that because I take what the judge says to be very reliable. 🙂 With the remorse and grief, I agree vampires without souls don't truly hate themselves for what they've done until they get their soul, but at the same time, I do think they can feel grief (since Spike did after Buffy died).

And keep telling yourself that about the Yanks 😉

then how come Spike felt remorse? & Gunn's sister said she didn't feel any grief, so why did Spike feel it?

& I don't have to say anything about the Stankees 😛, if you have Burnett & Nova & Mitre as your starters, its a self-answered question.

But they are better. Well, were better until suddenly a retcon occurred and whole species of demons were revealed to have conscience and capacity to do good.

yes, but other than S1 of Buffy, there were a lot of good & neutral demons.

Because they were criminally stupid?

exactly, no one in the world is that stupid, especially if that stupid person can create all those fake memories.

Yes, I think the ridiculous immunity that the Wolfram and Hart personnel got was one of the recurring problems of AtS. They obviously cannot be brought to justice the way other human perpetrators can, so it's either kill them or let them cause more deaths. Even more ridiculous was that any demonic employees never got such immunity. Now, don't get me wrong, I'd rather not have had good demons in the show at all, but they tried to have it both ways and it didn't work - if humans aren't automatically more deserving of chances than demons how come Angel can kill random demon X with a song in his heart while sparing Lilah, Lindsey and the likes in every other episode?

EXACTLY, you said it better than I did.

I didn't really like Cangel, but I think it did make sense. As Wes pointed out, Cordy was more connected to the Good Fight than anyone. Cordy was literally the only one in the entire 'verse who couldn't walk away. She couldn't get rid of the visions, and they kept coming. Even Angel or Buffy could be SOBs, and just leave for an island if they really wanted to.

how can it make sense? why did he leave Buffy then if he could have a relationship?

It's true. Though, in the early seasons, there were only two Apocalypses I believe ("The Zeppo," and "Acathala"). The Master & Mayor couldn't and didn't want to destroy Earth per-say.

that's why the first seasons were universally appraised & many fans enjoy them, I'm not one of those that despise anything beyond S4, but I'm not particulary in love with them either.

You missed my point. The Slayer was meant to be the ultimate Champion for good, to stare down ALL of evil. This seems somewhat unreasonable given single members of "evil" were as strong, if not stronger than her. Say the Master & Angelus double-teamed a Slayer, she'd be dead at their discretion, then multiply that by the thousands of demons vs. one slayer.

actually, Angel did babysit Btvs again in this particular point, it showed us that there are champions other than the slayer, the slayer was just created by 3 powerful monks, but there were champions before & after her that populated the whole world, & the numerco five episode of Ats S5 (horrible episode btw) showed us that champions are around the world, & the powers that be look after them just like when they made it snow to protect Angel.
the slayer isn't more or less important than those champions, but she's gifted with dark power given to her by those monks, but from what I got from both shows, Angel (who is a vampire) is more important than the slayer to the powers & to the world, he is the central figure to the most apocalyptic of all apocalypses, he's not just a central figure in an apocalypse, but a central figure in THE apocalypse, & W&H are desperate to have him on their side.

 

[Buffyverse Fan]

how can it make sense? why did he leave Buffy then if he could have a relationship?

First let me say I'm a Bangel, okay, now let me tell you how Cangel might make more sense...

1.) Bangel broke up, because, as stated prior, Angel believed that Buffy could have a shot at a relatively normal life without him. Joyce pointed out that Buffy could go to college and start a real life. The Mayor pointed out that at some point Buffy would probably begin to curse Angel's youth. Angel believed himself to be sterile. And though not mentioned, it's doubtful they could adopt given Angel was a dead illegal immigrant 😛

A lot of that was proven false later on, but was believed at the time.

2.) Buffy & Angel shared similar, but not the same missions. Plus, as Wes pointed out, it's quite possible, that Buffy was literally the ONLY person Angel couldn't have sex with.

3.) Cordy was bound to Angel by TPTB, so their mission was believed to always be the same.

4.) Twilight wanted to use Buffy & Angel's intercourse to

Spoiler

destroy and reshape the universe

!!!

actually, Angel did babysit Btvs again in this particular point, it showed us that there are champions other than the slayer, the slayer was just created by 3 powerful monks, but there were champions before & after her that populated the whole world, & the numerco five episode of Ats S5 (horrible episode btw) showed us that champions are around the world, & the powers that be look after them just like when they made it snow to protect Angel.
the slayer isn't more or less important than those champions, but she's gifted with dark power given to her by those monks, but from what I got from both shows, Angel (who is a vampire) is more important than the slayer to the powers & to the world, he is the central figure to the most apocalyptic of all apocalypses, he's not just a central figure in an apocalypse, but a central figure in THE apocalypse, & W&H are desperate to have him on their side.

I completely agree, that's why I cited them earlier on. However, the Shadow Men's plan of "One Girl in all the world to fight the forces of darkness" was moronic without the other forces of good, Buffy would have lost most of her battles.

 

[Red Sox Nation]

First let me say I'm a Bangel, okay, now let me tell you how Cangel might make more sense...

1.) Bangel broke up, because, as stated prior, Angel believed that Buffy could have a shot at a relatively normal life without him. Joyce pointed out that Buffy could go to college and start a real life. The Mayor pointed out that at some point Buffy would probably begin to curse Angel's youth. Angel believed himself to be sterile. And though not mentioned, it's doubtful they could adopt given Angel was a dead illegal immigrant 😛

A lot of that was proven false later on, but was believed at the time.

2.) Buffy & Angel shared similar, but not the same missions. Plus, as Wes pointed out, it's quite possible, that Buffy was literally the ONLY person Angel couldn't have sex with.

3.) Cordy was bound to Angel by TPTB, so their mission was believed to always be the same.

4.) Twilight wanted to use Buffy & Angel's intercourse to Spoiler - Highlight to view:destroy and reshape the universe!!!

that's the problem, we have to draw theories just to make sense of that relationship.

I completely agree, that's why I cited them earlier on. However, the Shadow Men's plan of "One Girl in all the world to fight the forces of darkness" was moronic without the other forces of good, Buffy would have lost most of her battles.

yeah, but they're not part of the powers that be, & the watcher's council didn't exist by then, they were three monks that just wanted to protect their behind (they had noble intention for allowing the slayer line to continue indefintely), the powers saw that slayers are champions nevertheless, but because the idiotic council, they didn't allow slayers to have aid, if they did, the powers would have stepped in & gave them Doyle-like help...etc.

 

[LadyLavinia]

everytime I rewatch both Buffy & Angel, I keep convincing myself that they're the perfect shows & they have no faults.
I rewatch both every six months or so, currently I'm in AS4 BS7.

this time I said "you know what? nothing's perfect"

I never thought that "BUFFY" and "ANGEL" were flawless. But I believe that they're still among the better shows that have aired on television.

 

[prophecygrrl]

Yep, BtVS and AtS are never perfect. But they're still really good.

But on your points- for one, the Cangel relationship never actually happened. At all. They just fell in love. Works for me, even if it's way on the tragic side. 😉 That and Angel left Buffy when she was in high school and when she seemed to be reluctant to do the college thing or even *try* at a normal life. It made total sense to leave her. Cordy and Angel, on the other hand, were two adults who shared a mission and a life already. She could never have a normal life anyway, and her situation was completely different from Buffy's. You don't need to explain their relationship with theories; I don't think it makes Buffy and Angel's breakup any less legitimate.

And about not killing the humans at W&H. I just got the feeling that they were all very replaceable. Angel & Co. could've killed a new Lilah or Lindsey every week if they wanted to. It wouldn't have made much difference, except maybe it'd get the Senior Partners on their asses. Which wouldn't be smart. Leaving Lindsey and Lilah alive is not the same thing as leaving a bloodthirsty demon alive. W&H would've go on without them, and they weren't the sole perpetrators of evil over there. Not the case with a human-killing demon! 😀

 

[Red Sox Nation]

Yep, BtVS and AtS are never perfect. But they're still really good.

But on your points- for one, the Cangel relationship never actually happened. At all. They just fell in love. Works for me, even if it's way on the tragic side. 😉 That and Angel left Buffy when she was in high school and when she seemed to be reluctant to do the college thing or even *try* at a normal life. It made total sense to leave her. Cordy and Angel, on the other hand, were two adults who shared a mission and a life already. She could never have a normal life anyway, and her situation was completely different from Buffy's. You don't need to explain their relationship with theories; I don't think it makes Buffy and Angel's breakup any less legitimate.

And about not killing the humans at W&H. I just got the feeling that they were all very replaceable. Angel & Co. could've killed a new Lilah or Lindsey every week if they wanted to. It wouldn't have made much difference, except maybe it'd get the Senior Partners on their asses. Which wouldn't be smart. Leaving Lindsey and Lilah alive is not the same thing as leaving a bloodthirsty demon alive. W&H would've go on without them, and they weren't the sole perpetrators of evil over there. Not the case with a human-killing demon! 😀

you do realize that Cordelia is the same age as Buffy right? anyway, Buffy & Cordelia were both stuck with something that can never give them a normal life, Buffy was a slayer & Cordy was vision girl. the situation isn't exactly the same, but there isn't significant difference between the two. & I haven't mentioned the other point since my original post, Cordy was THE MOST critical person of Angel having a relationship, she actually pushed Angel into "explaining" the situation to Fred months prior to the event. I could go on & watch Btvs S2 & 3, then Ats S1 & 2, I can pretty much find Cordy mentioning how bad an idea it is for Angel to have a relationship every couple of episodes.

about the humans part, I used Lilah as an example, there is some kind of bigotry towards non-humans in the show, you can kill a demon without asking a question, but killing an evil human is a bad idea.
you also mentioned something else, about the W&H staff, not every employee is easily replaceable, or else there would be no such concept as "promotion" in the firm, & while Lilah & Lindsay are not responsible for everything W&H does, & they're not the sole perpetrators, they're still part of W&H, & they are responsible for their actions, yet they get a free pass because the have a human body, & they can go on a killing spree (mystically) & nobody would stop them.

 

[Kana]

you do realize that Cordelia is the same age as Buffy right? anyway, Buffy & Cordelia were both stuck with something that can never give them a normal life, Buffy was a slayer & Cordy was vision girl. the situation isn't exactly the same, but there isn't significant difference between the two. & I haven't mentioned the other point since my original post, Cordy was THE MOST critical person of Angel having a relationship, she actually pushed Angel into "explaining" the situation to Fred months prior to the event. I could go on & watch Btvs S2 & 3, then Ats S1 & 2, I can pretty much find Cordy mentioning how bad an idea it is for Angel to have a relationship every couple of episodes.

This is why Cordy never saw Angel as anything other than a 'eunuch'. When he sends her away in Couplet, he's doing what he did for Buffy in the Prom, trying to give her the life she deserves.

In Waiting in the Wings, Angel actually does address that he has little to offer her because of the curse, but Lorne tells him to take a shot. Angel isn't the same person he was when he left Buffy this perhaps explains why he started to see potential in getting back together with her. The curse still stands, but he's aware of it now. I'm not saying it's altogether wise, but maybe Angel's changed his stance slightly and believes he can a make a relationship work with the curse. Personally I'd be wary but that's just me.

about the humans part, I used Lilah as an example, there is some kind of bigotry towards non-humans in the show, you can kill a demon without asking a question, but killing an evil human is a bad idea.
you also mentioned something else, about the W&H staff, not every employee is easily replaceable, or else there would be no such concept as "promotion" in the firm, & while Lilah & Lindsay are not responsible for everything W&H does, & they're not the sole perpetrators, they're still part of W&H, & they are responsible for their actions, yet they get a free pass because the have a human body, & they can go on a killing spree (mystically) & nobody would stop them.

It depends on how he plans to stop W&H. By killing humans at W&H he'd be doing it to full his obsession further. When he kills vampires, he's not judging them as such but preventing innocent people from being killed. By doing things like saving telekinetic girls etc he can better serve humanity by undermining W&H through good deeds. Being a champion is not about getting all the bad guys but about envisioning a better world.

Also we have to look at the nature of human/demon. Angel and co usually don't kill humans but it's not within human nature to kill other humans for the most part. Unlike vampires and other predetory demons what drives them to kill is more complex. Even by killing 'evil' demons, we are not judging them but understanding that it's kill or be killed. Also they don't kill demon indescrimately either. They release the demons from their human captors in The Ring and see Merle's death as a murder. It's not clear cut but the moral quandry is addressed on the show.

 

[StarSlayer]

then how come Spike felt remorse? & Gunn's sister said she didn't feel any grief, so why did Spike feel it?

I can't go into another Spike discussion. I've dealt with these arguments for the past couple weeks and I've reached my breaking point here (for a while at least, lol). Bottom-line: Spike was an anomaly. Spike felt remorse (to an extent) and grief when it came to the people he loved when he was soulless. IMO, there's a lot of a gray areas when it comes to the whole vampires/soul concept because each vampire that we see goes through a different journey.

& I don't have to say anything about the Stankees 😛, if you have Burnett & Nova & Mitre as your starters, its a self-answered question.

Sure, ok then 😉 We'll settle the score on the field. 😛