The Scoobies and Buffy

LadyLavinia

Scooby
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After watching episodes like "Dead Man's Party", "Intervention" and "Empty Places"; I cannot help but wonder if the Scoobies had expected too much of Buffy.

I realize that Buffy could be difficult at times - especially when she's being distant. But there are times when I get the feeling that the Scoobies had expected her to be a bit too ideal. In their minds, she is foremost "The Slayer". They seemed to have a slight intolerance toward some of her flaws. Yet, she has put up with a great deal of their flaws. I realize that fans love to idealize the relationship between Buffy and the other Scoobies. But sometimes, I find the nature of that friendship rather disturbing . . . and uneven.
 
Interesting topic. I've often thought that, but then her being the 'hero' of the group I guess it was easy to put her on a pedestal and think of her as someone who can do anything. I guess they're so used to her knowing what to do that when they're faced with something that goes even beyond Buffy, they don't know what else to think.

I think at times they focus more on 'Buffy- the slayer' rather than 'Buffy- the person.'
 
Kean
Kean
Your last line. So. Much.
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prophecygrrl
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randiann
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Interesting topic. I've often thought that, but then her being the 'hero' of the group I guess it was easy to put her on a pedestal and think of her as someone who can do anything. I guess they're so used to her knowing what to do that when they're faced with something that goes even beyond Buffy, they don't know what else to think.

I think at times they focus more on 'Buffy- the slayer' rather than 'Buffy- the person.'

Actually, I think a lot of the problem with Buffy in season 7 is she tried being the slayer and not the person and it blew up in her face. Throughout the years Buffy has relied on her friends and it has gone both ways with them saving her life and vice versa. Willow and Xander have also taken leadership when neccessary, after Angel turned to Angelus Xander came up with the plan to blow the judge, in Weight of the World Willow took over leadership and got Buffy out of her coma, in Halloween Xander and Willow took over along with Giles saving the day, In Grave Xander, Giles, and Anya mainly saved the day. Also in season 7 both Willow and Xander wanted Buffy to take a break and to stop distancing herself, and it wasn't till she did that did she defeat the first with Willow's help, and Spike. The show doesn't show Buffy strongest when she acts alone, she is strongest with the scoobs, and I think the scoobs care more about Buffy the person than the slayer. Also Buffy's problems of connecting with people come from her own issues, she chooses to be distance, has a reliance upon Spike which is somewhat unhealthy, and oh so tired of Spike is the only one watching my back crap, and she chooses to feel superior to be distance, she is in a trap of her own making and admits she lets being the slayer distant herself from her friends and others in season 7.
 
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The Unspoken
Truer words were never spoken.
nightshade
nightshade
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They hold Buffy up to an inhuman standard perhaps because of the superhuman capabilities.
 
I think they did expect too much of her. She is very, very flawed, of course, and her mistakes deserve to be called out. But it's the same with the Scoobies, and it feels like a lot more of their mistakes slide because they're not faced with the same burden.

I hate it when the Scoobies act like Buffy's not allowed to judge them. Which is true, in some cases of course Buffy can be too judgmental. The girl has issues. But it just bothers me when the Scoobies do this because their reliance on her as the Slayer/leader is a big part of what put her on that high horse in the first place. Someone has to be. They accuse her of having a superiority complex, yet they fuel it by putting way too much responsibility on her, especially in the later seasons.
 
I think they did expect too much of her. She is very, very flawed, of course, and her mistakes deserve to be called out. But it's the same with the Scoobies, and it feels like a lot more of their mistakes slide because they're not faced with the same burden.

I hate it when the Scoobies act like Buffy's not allowed to judge them. Which is true, in some cases of course Buffy can be too judgmental. The girl has issues. But it just bothers me when the Scoobies do this because their reliance on her as the Slayer/leader is a big part of what put her on that high horse in the first place. Someone has to be. They accuse her of having a superiority complex, yet they fuel it by putting way too much responsibility on her, especially in the later seasons.

Buffy admitted having a superiority complex in season 7, so I don't have a problem with the scoobs calling her out on it, she was better after they did and much more likable. The scoobies have always offered to help Buffy throughout the show, even in season 8 she had a large reliance upon Willow to get them out of trouble, so the show doesn't show Buffy suffering alone because she is the slayer, her friends have always jumped in times of need. I think is perfectly fair and healthy for people to call someone out when something clearly isn't working or if there is conflict or else everyone is just left with resentment towards each other, your better off just fighting out and then making a compromise. Its also largely ironic Buffy betrayed those that helped her, and put her in more of a postion to be the only slayer with less people to help her, as a result.
 
Buffy admitted having a superiority complex in season 7, so I don't have a problem with the scoobs calling her out on it, she was better after they did and much more likable. The scoobies have always offered to help Buffy throughout the show, even in season 8 she had a large reliance upon Willow to get them out of trouble, so the show doesn't show Buffy suffering alone because she is the slayer, her friends have always jumped in times of need. I think is perfectly fair and healthy for people to call someone out when something clearly isn't working or if there is conflict or else everyone is just left with resentment towards each other, your better off just fighting out and then making a compromise. Its also largely ironic Buffy betrayed those that helped her, and put her in more of a postion to be the only slayer with less people to help her, as a result.

I'm not disagreeing on calling Buffy out. I just think the Scoobies need to own up to their mistakes too if they're going to criticize Buffy for a position that they helped put her in.

As the show progressed, Buffy's mission became theirs too and they were fighting it for their own reasons as well, so I don't agree that they helped Buffy as a gesture of friendship.

I don't understand the betrayal you're talking about. Do you mean in Season 8 with regards to
Willow and breaking the Seed? Because in that case I strongly disagree. That was not a calculated incident.
 
Personally, I think that the Scoobies often let Buffy's personal problems slide. She's the Slayer, they need her to fight the bad guys, and sometimes I feel like that comes first to them, and her feelings come in a painful second. They seem to let everything fester until the last possible second, and then they all seem to gang up on her at once, like in 'Dead Man's Party' or 'Revelations', 'The Yoko Factor' or 'Empty Places'. Did that scene really need to go down with people like the Potentials, Wood and Andrew stuck in the middle of it? Even Anya at this point was a little redundant. If Willow, Giles, Xander and Dawn took Buffy aside and spoke to her alone, things might have worked out much more calmly. I really don' think they needed to embarrass her in front of the kids who she was supposed to be protecting.

I'm not denying that the Scoobs have been there for Buffy, done things for her that go above and beyond the call of friendship, but especially in situations were they think Buffy is wrong, they seem to think that she should know better because she's the Slayer, she shouldn't do the things she did because she's the Chosen One, but they forget that Buffy is, first a foremost, a teenager/young woman, who can and will make mistakes. They often ignore her problems until they can't be ignored anymore, and then they end up disappointed in her because she didn't know any better.

I'm not denying the fact that Buffy was wrong on certain occasions, keeping Angel's return a secret, for example, even though she did it for what she thought were the right reasons, but that doesn't negate the fact that her problems are largely ignored until they no longer can be.
 
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sisterofmercy
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randiann
And this is why I love you. So true.
I do think at times that they all put a little too much pressure on Buffy. They assumed that since she was the Slayer and used to being the leader that would always know what to do and when to do it. But they tended to forget a lot that Buffy was still just a young girl, and sometimes she didn't have all the answers.
 
I think from seasons 1-3, the scoobies are still adjusting to all of the fear that comes with the awareness of living on the hellmouth without the same kind of, (if any) control over their fates that Buffy has. Sure, they do a lot to help and in that way are actually quite powerful at times but relative to Buffy, they feel almost helpless; in the backs of their minds they know that if she wasn't around they wouldn't be able to save themselves. The events during the summer leading up to Dead Man's Party really bring this notion to light as they face the forces of evil alone. When Buffy returns, of course, they attack her and call her irresponsible because they spent the summer terrified. Because they also love and appreciate Buffy, the person, they are ultimately more relieved that she is safe and can be their companion once again, so the issue is dropped quite easily.
In season 4, Willow makes quite a lot of progress toward becoming a powerful witch, but she keeps a lot of it to herself. Ultimately though, in this season, the gang continues to look to Buffy to be their protector and they don't question her actions or motives very much which probably makes her feel quite isolated and very much under pressure. Of course this all comes to a head in The Yoko Factor which very nicely sets the stage for their group effort in defeating Adam in Primeval.
After this, things return to how they were before; the scoobies hit the books and express concern but they let Buffy make the big choices.
I think this really takes a turn in Weight of the World when Buffy is out of commission for the first time since the summer after Becoming Pt 2. This time, Willow steps up and takes over, allowing the rest of the gang to put their fear and expectations in her hands. From this point forward, she thinks of herself more and more as almost an equal to Buffy. This is heightened of course when she brings her back to life.
As for Xander, season 5 is the first time we actually hear him acknowledge that perhaps they are putting too much pressure on Buffy, only it happens to be the 'bot the he's talking to when he says "It's ok, you're right, you shouldn't have to know everything." Whenever I hear that I think "finally, someone says it!" It might not seem like much but I think it's a very important step for that to be said, and for the rest of the gang to hear it. This of course precedes Willow's triumphant moment but sets the stage for it.

I think if you look at it carefully, in each season finale in which Buffy defeats a big bad, the scoobies do progressively more and more to help. The more confidence they gain in assisting Buffy directly in averting an apocalypse, the less they lean on her solely for support and the less they are involved in criticizing her personal choices. Of course, the more confidence they gain the more they drift apart from her, and the less they are even aware of the choices she is making and the experiences she is having. Part of this, too, is growing up.

In season 7, all bets are off. Buffy has an inferiority complex about having a superiority complex, and it's a giant mess. Everyone is trying to be a grown up here; everyone is trying to assert his/her independence but is scared more than ever before. If they are judgmental of Buffy's overt leadership, it isn't because she didn't ask for it, like before. She has taken on the role of general now. This is her war and they are her troops. It's a very cold season in a lot of ways. The scoobies are so isolated from one another that they might as well be nothing more than acquaintances, (with the exception of a few key moments), until Chosen. It's sad, but natural I think given all that's happened to each of them. Their life journeys have taken such different paths that the only thing that unites them in this season is the mission, and the house. But the way they come together in the end, with the tie-in to season 1? It's all the more heartwarming because of that.
 
Prophetcy, Buffy has whined for years how she's the only slayer, and this season before the betrayal she had people across the globe helping her. The betrayal which was sleeping with Twilight which made it neccessary to break the seed to begin with, made it harder for the people who stood by her to help her anymore, since now they have forced normallcy upon them as a result of breaking of the seed, and it may have not been intentional or what she intended when she betrayed everyone. However, it is ironic considering she has been the one who has complained about being the only slayer and about having everyone relying on her, considering she made it so she is the only one in a figurative sense and that there won't be any future slayers, as well as disempowered her other supporters/army like the witches, which I find ironic. If she hadn't betrayed everyone then she wouldn't be as alone in the mission as she is going to be in season 9, which is also ironic. I'm not trying to bash Buffy but this is waht I was getting at in my post.
 
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prophecygrrl
oh, i thought you were talking about the thing I put in spoiler tags. i understand now
^ I accidentally hit 'enter' before I finished my comment. I hate when that happens. Anyway, I was going to add that I understand what you mean, even though I disagree on a few points, I think it'd be a little off topic for me to respond fully on why. 😉
 
I don't care if the Scoobies do more to help. But they seem incapable of realizing that she carries a big load on her shoulders.

While watching "Dead Man's Party", I noticed that everyone was dumping their anger on Buffy for leaving, without even bothering to understand why she had left in the Season 2 finale in the first place. She's trying to explain what she was going through . . . and they won't listen. It was disgusting to watch. Surely they remembered what she had gone through with Angel. Right?

And there was a line in which Willow ranted on about how they had to do the Slaying duties, while Buffy was gone. What on earth made them think they had to be slayers in Buffy's absence? They didn't have to do crap. They didn't do crap for years before Buffy's arrival. And after knowing her for a year-and-a-half, they felt they were obliged to be Slayers, while getting angry over Buffy's absence?

And what really pisses me off is that when Buffy distances herself, they get pissed off about it. Yet, they seemed to have no problems when it comes to going off on their own to engage in their own lives.

Buffy is flawed, yes. God knows that she is far from perfect. But the Scoobies had a bad habit of being somewhat intolerant toward her flaws, and at the same time, demanding that she tolerates theirs. I find this attitude hypocritical.


Some of you claim that Buffy has a inferiority/superiority problem. Okay. So what is the Scoobies' problem? Why do they insist upon putting Buffy on a pedestal and expecting her to remain there?

Someone once claimed that only with the Scoobies can Buffy be strong. I disagree . . . completely. For me, it depends upon the moment. There are times when Buffy needs companionship or help. But there are times when she can only depend upon herself. She discovered this in "Touched". I only hoped that she will remember this lesson. And she needs to stop fearing the loss of her friends and learn to appreciate being alone at times. Being alone - in the right way - might help her on the road to eventual inner peace.
 
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While watching "Dead Man's Party", I noticed that everyone was dumping their anger on Buffy for leaving, without even bothering to understand why she had left in the Season 2 finale in the first place. She's trying to explain what she was going through . . . and they won't listen. It was disgusting to watch.

She tried to explain? I seem to recall their avoiding her initial questions in DMP and Giles having to come up with a fake spell to make Buffy spill the beans about Angel's demise in the next episode. Buffy tried to run away again because her friends didn't bow down to her in DMP, that's what started the whole quarrel.

And there was a line in which Willow ranted on about how they had to do the Slaying duties, while Buffy was gone. What on earth made them think they had to be slayers in Buffy's absence? They didn't have to do crap.

Yes, they would have had such a fun summer leaving people to be killed by vampires.

Buffy is flawed, yes. God knows that she is far from perfect. But the Scoobies had a bad habit of being somewhat intolerant toward her flaws, and at the same time, demanding that she tolerates theirs. I find this attitude hypocritical.

Yes, they are real intolerant. Buffy wants to date a vampire and they, gasp agree after some token protest from Xander and Giles. She hides said vampire after he had killed a ton of people including Giles's girlfriend, again reconciliation happens the same day. She threatens to kill them to give a few minutes more life to her fake sister and they forgive that too. She risks their lives by insisting Spike's trigger is not dangerous and coming up with crazy plans based on her hunches, they still manage to accept that. It's like they are her friends or something.

But there are times when she can only depend upon herself. She discovered this in "Touched".

So I must have imagined this scene then:

Angel:Now that's everything, huh? No weapons... No friends... No hope. Take all that away... and what's left?
Buffy: Me.

And I really don't see how Buffy needing Spike's pep talk counts as her depending on herself only.
 
I don't care if the Scoobies do more to help. But they seem incapable of realizing that she carries a big load on her shoulders.

While watching "Dead Man's Party", I noticed that everyone was dumping their anger on Buffy for leaving, without even bothering to understand why she had left in the Season 2 finale in the first place. She's trying to explain what she was going through . . . and they won't listen. It was disgusting to watch. Surely they remembered what she had gone through with Angel. Right?

And there was a line in which Willow ranted on about how they had to do the Slaying duties, while Buffy was gone. What on earth made them think they had to be slayers in Buffy's absence? They didn't have to do crap. They didn't do crap for years before Buffy's arrival. And after knowing her for a year-and-a-half, they felt they were obliged to be Slayers, while getting angry over Buffy's absence?

And what really pisses me off is that when Buffy distances herself, they get pissed off about it. Yet, they seemed to have no problems when it comes to going off on their own to engage in their own lives.

Buffy is flawed, yes. God knows that she is far from perfect. But the Scoobies had a bad habit of being somewhat intolerant toward her flaws, and at the same time, demanding that she tolerates theirs. I find this attitude hypocritical.


Some of you claim that Buffy has a inferiority/superiority problem. Okay. So what is the Scoobies' problem? Why do they insist upon putting Buffy on a pedestal and expecting her to remain there?

Someone once claimed that only with the Scoobies can Buffy be strong. I disagree . . . completely. For me, it depends upon the moment. There are times when Buffy needs companionship or help. But there are times when she can only depend upon herself. She discovered this in "Touched". I only hoped that she will remember this lesson. And she needs to stop fearing the loss of her friends and learn to appreciate being alone at times. Being alone - in the right way - might help her on the road to eventual inner peace.

I never got the feeling the scoobies had Buffy on a pedestal even in the earrlier seasons, considering how they were willingly to call her out when she screwed up. Touched doesn't support your point either, Buffy relied on Spike to feel better and full out admit her mistakes, being alone hasn't helped Buffy over the years at least from my point of view, it only feeds into her superiority complex which doesn't help anyone, and distances her from people, and much like Angel when he loses a connection to humanity he loses his way, which both did in season 8. I think Buffy needs her friends and is better because of them, in the Wish it shows Buffy could never defeat the Master and would have turned out more like Kendra and Faith, and never would have made it as far as she did. In DMP, Buffy repeatly refuses her friends help and tells them they wouldn't understand and tries to run away again, and I think they both made good points, but Buffy didn't come off smelling like a rose either.
 
While reading an article about the Season 8 comics, someone named Shadowkat67 had this to say about the Scoobies:


"I don't understand Xander though - he's so wishy-washy. He joins the big fight when they are in a castle, he has cool outfits, cool equipment, and it's fun. But when there's no money and it's just Buffy alone in the dark with vampires - he's back to pretending it's not a fight for him anymore. Same deal with Willow - if it's cool - she's there, if it's not, she's out. I noticed this dichotomy in S6 vs. S7 and S5. In S7 they are all - oh we have to fight with Buffy. In S6 - when Buffy actually needs them, no, no, we don't want to help, we have our own more interesting lives to lead. Gee, with friends like these who needs enemies. Although that is actually quite realistic. Depressing, ain't it?"


She said it a lot better than I ever could.
 
LadyLavina, I think who ever wrote that really didn't watch season 6 too closely, the scoobies clearly cared about helping Buffy in season 6. A couple of examples include them all talking about helping Buffy after they find out the truth about her being in heaven, Dawn trying to talk to her sister when she finds about Spike, Willow and Buffy interacting and helping each other after they both hit rock bottom, and Giles, Xander, Anya, and Buffy all working together to help Willow when she went dark in season 6. It doesn't sound like who ever wrote that watched all of season 6.
 
LadyLavina, I think who ever wrote that really didn't watch season 6 too closely, the scoobies clearly cared about helping Buffy in season 6. A couple of examples include them all talking about helping Buffy after they find out the truth about her being in heaven, Dawn trying to talk to her sister when she finds about Spike, Willow and Buffy interacting and helping each other after they both hit rock bottom, and Giles, Xander, Anya, and Buffy all working together to help Willow when she went dark in season 6. It doesn't sound like who ever wrote that watched all of season 6.

I don't agree with that. S6 was all about Buffy and the Scoobs dealing with their own problems, adult problems. Everyone seemed to be so focused on their own lives, they didn't really have time to think about anyone else.

Of course, they all jumped in when they were really needed, like when Willow hit rock bottom, but then something happened in their own lives, and they forgot about their friends to focus on themselves. Buffy herself is even guilty of this.

And I don't really think anyone but Dawn tried to help Buffy deal with her feelings about being ripped out of Heaven. Willow seemed to be focusing on her own guilt, Tara was too upset at Willow's misuse of magic and cut herself off from the Scoobies until Buffy called her, Giles left her to deal with it herself, Xander decided to ignore the whole thing and Spike used Buffy's depression for himself. Only Dawn really seemed to care about what it was doing to Buffy, and even then, her feelings were selfishly motivated.

Buffy is as guilty of ignoring her friends feelings as they are of ignoring hers, however. All the blame can't be put on the Scoobies here. Buffy could have told them about being in Heaven and they could have dealt with it together, rather than bottling it up and blurting it out in the middle of a spell and devastating everyone, but, in S6, she got too wrapped up in her own depression about that fact, and she missed all the clues about her friends' lives spinning out of control, and her friends were too busy dealing with their out of control lives to notice Buffy's depression. Catch 22.
 
While reading an article about the Season 8 comics, someone named Shadowkat67 had this to say about the Scoobies:





She said it a lot better than I ever could.

I agree about S6. Xander and Willow obviously didn't want to deal with Buffy's pain due to their guilt. They wanna believe that Buffy is getting better so they won't deal with their guilt and see themselves as the bad guys who caused her that pain.

But I completely disagree that Xander and Willow were never there for Buffy emotionally. How many speeches Xander had said to lift her spirits up? What about Willow giving up Yale and other high quality colleges to stay in Sunnydale? What about the nights they just hang out and watch a movie, make Buffy feel like a normal girl? I'm not denying that they do see Buffy as a Superhero and that Buffy sees them as objects that serve her needs whenever she needed them, BUT that's not always the case, the three of them care about each other and love each other dearly. And showed so many times that they're there for each other emotionally and not just for the fight.
 
She tried to explain? I seem to recall their avoiding her initial questions in DMP and Giles having to come up with a fake spell to make Buffy spill the beans about Angel's demise in the next episode. Buffy tried to run away again because her friends didn't bow down to her in DMP, that's what started the whole quarrel.

Yes, they would have had such a fun summer leaving people to be killed by vampires.

Yes, they are real intolerant. Buffy wants to date a vampire and they, gasp agree after some token protest from Xander and Giles. She hides said vampire after he had killed a ton of people including Giles's girlfriend, again reconciliation happens the same day. She threatens to kill them to give a few minutes more life to her fake sister and they forgive that too. She risks their lives by insisting Spike's trigger is not dangerous and coming up with crazy plans based on her hunches, they still manage to accept that. It's like they are her friends or something.
.

You and I have pretty much exact opposite views on this. I just recently rewatched DMP and Revelations, and I was actually yelling at the t.v. I could not believe that they had the audacity to attack Buffy because, poor them, chose to step into her shoes for a summer. I was like, "yeah, yell at her because your life had to suck like hers for a bit..." And then when everyone was attacking her in Revelations (i think that's the title), I was thinking how amazing it is that Buffy didn't just snap at some point and knock one of them out or just take off and let them fend for themselves. They were treating her like she was their own personal, paid bodyguard or something. I am not a Bangel in any sense, but I understood her actions there. Yes, as a "superhero" type at least part of you belongs to the world, in that Buffy is the protector, but at this point there was another slayer around. I very much sympathize with Buffy here.
 
brinkster130
brinkster130
yes! I totally agree.
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