The Scoobies vs. Buffy: "Empty Places"

[Ripper666]

Is there anyone else who accuses Willow, Xander, Dawn and Giles for critizising Buffy so hard in the "Empty Places"? I mean they all had been against her! Too hard they stand against her, in my eyes at least! THey know her for so long... they should have known that they can trust Buffys instinct! Instead they all teared her inside! Suddenly they all were against her! I give them right, Buffy was a little bit to stubborn but hey, they could talk to her before the hole house accuse her! Love Spike because he still was for Buffy! Anybody else condemn the Scoobie-Gang for that?

 

[RipperGilesFan]

I never liked the Empty places episode, but I don't condemn them for their criticism either. After Buffy walked into the trap and the losses they suffered it's understandable they weren't willing to follow her blindly.

The whole 'Spike is the only one I can trust now' is something I never bought in to, to forced and contrived. I know I was supposed to root for Buffy/Spike during and after empty places, but I didn't fall for it 😉

I know I'm in the minority on this on this board 😀

 

[zobothehobo]

I don't understand everyone's criticisms at all. I am so far on Buffy's side that I just do not understand where they're coming from at all. I never have, and I probably never will. Buffy was doing the best she could as a leader. Everyone accuses her of pulling away from her friends, but friendship is a two way street. They didn't make an effort to help her either. The only one who did was Spike. And this comes up when Buffy presents a logical explanation for what they should do next. She says "I'm willing to talk strategy," (meaning "what actually happens... like who actually goes and the battle plan and all.. I'm willing to negotiate that") "but this is the plan" (meaning "this is what needs to be done"). And they completely undermine her authority, and worst than that... they act like it doesn't exist. And then they get mad at her for being an authority figure... because she is. But they've been perfectly fine all season letting her worry about it.

It all makes me very angry.

 

[Gum Gnome33]

But how many times had Buffy come up with a "perfect" (read:successful) plan by that point in the series? Heck she'd even managed to walk into traps on several occasions and still save everyone. "I don't understand this. For 7 years, I've kept us safe by doing this - exactly this, making the hard decisions. And now, what - suddenly you're all acting like you can't trust me?"
And perhaps that was a mistake on the writers' part; things had so consistently unrealistically worked out for the best up until then, so we, (including the scoobies) were all expecting another victory here. But things took a more realistic turn, she made a mistake and the consequences were tragic. But they were at war with the First Evil, and no one else was offering any ideas or strategies at all. Given what they were up against, it was very likely that a potential would die, either in that particular battle, or at some point to come. Certainly if they sat around talking about what to do some more, they would have been attacked anyway by Caleb or by a Turuk Han. Whether it happened in the Vineyard or at 1630 Revello Drive wouldn't make much of a difference in terms of their safety or preparedness. If anything, bringing the fight to Caleb was a better idea than sitting at home waiting for him to come to them, since the fight was on their terms.

But, again, it was a mistake. She couldn't have known. How the heck was the most logical solution to blindly follow Faith? Faith, who'd just escaped prison, who'd been out of the game for a while, who had absolutely zero experience either leading others or exhibiting concern for their well being? I mean, even Faith thought it was a bad idea until she realized how much fun it could be and then... Also made a horrible mistake that almost cost all of them their lives!

The whole 'Spike is the only one I can trust now' is something I never bought in to, to forced and contrived.

Well actually she said that "Spike was the only one who had her back." And at that point, Giles had just betrayed her, she barely had a relationship with Willow or Xander, Anya had just stopped killing again, Dawn was mostly being a whiny teenager, and Faith was Faith--(I don't think she planned on counting on her for much at that point). So maybe it was extreme to say he was the only one, but given that the rest of the relationships in her lives were filled with silence, awkwardness, (from Willow recently trying to kill everyone and Giles's betrayal), or downright uncertainty, I don't see at all how it was surprising that she made this statement. I know most won't believe me, but I was completely ship goggle-less when I said that. I swear! 🙂 (Actually, it was statements like that that really got me excited about the two of them together way back when I was almost neutral on the whole thing, and not the other way around!)

 

[RipperGilesFan]

Well actually she said that "Spike was the only one who had her back." And at that point, Giles had just betrayed her, she barely had a relationship with Willow or Xander, Anya had just stopped killing again, Dawn was mostly being a whiny teenager, and Faith was Faith--(I don't think she planned on counting on her for much at that point). So maybe it was extreme to say he was the only one, but given that the rest of the relationships in her lives were filled with silence, awkwardness, (from Willow recently trying to kill everyone and Giles's betrayal), or downright uncertainty, I don't see at all how it was surprising that she made this statement.

I guess we'll just have to agree on this. To me it was just downright silly how a she suddenly stopped talking to and trusting the people at her side for six years and decided a vampire, who not all that long ago tried to kill her, was her 'most trusted ally'. Again, it felt contrived and forced to me and I've never been able to buy in to it.
I know the speech Spike gave should have won me over, and root for him and Buffy but it just made me laugh 😱

 

[zobothehobo]

[MENTION=11652]RipperGilesFan[/MENTION] disagrees: It might be because at that point they were losing the battle and Buffy was not open at at to discuss tactics. I could see why it had them worried.

But Buffy WAS open to discuss tactics. "I'm willing to discuss strategy." That is what that means. So I don't see why they're worried.

 

[white avenger]

I can't watch this episode without getting really, REALLY angry at what happened. Maybe I missed something somewhere along the line, but these people were living under Buffy's roof, enjoying her protection, eating her food, and sitting on their dead a**es all day long while she, usually with little or no help, literally stood between them and an army bound on killing them all. Then, they have to fight once, the battle goes wrong, and THEY are throwing Buffy out of HER, not Dawn's, own house. How does that make any sort of sense whatsoever? If they didn't like the way that she was running things, why didn't THEY leave? By that time, there were plenty of vacant houses all over Sunnydale, just standing abandoned.

I'm not saying that Buffy didn't screw up. She did. Things like that happen in war, and make no mistake, this most certainly WAS a war. And Buffy was the Commanding Officer, a fact acknowledged, or at least not disputed, by everyone there until the time came for them to have to start doing their share. Then, suddenly, the army wants to become a democracy. And where were Buffy's best friends in all the world, the people who had seen her snatch victory from the jaws of defeat time and again for the previous 7 years? Why, leading the mutineers, of course.

Yes, Buffy made a mistake in not discussing her plan with her friends before springing it on the whole group, so that she could count on their support. But even without that, Giles, Xander, and the others should have stood with her and at the very least suggested that they have a private meeting, Potentials, klepto sisters, former criminal masterminds, and ex High School Principals NOT included, in order to work out strategies and options.

Just about the only good thing to come out of that whole situation was Buffy and Spike finally getting to spend a night together, alone, without tearing a house down. Buffy recovering the Scythe was just the icing on the cake.

 

[Icarium]

Buffy's sorry excuse of a plan can be described with the phrase "The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results." The show expecting me to take her side for no reason other than her being the lead character is well, let's just go with stupid, although other, stronger words come to mind. Do the rest of the gang stay in character? No, not at all - only Faith going after Buffy is something I would expect to find in a crappy Buffy/Faith fanfic than in canon. But I do know that I cheered out loud when they refused to follow her. I think that might have even been the only S7 moment that produced such a strong positive reaction in me. And all because it was so badly written than many a viewer had a reaction exactly opposite to what the writers were going for. "So bad it's good" all the way. 🙂

But Buffy WAS open to discuss tactics. "I'm willing to discuss strategy."

She is "willing" in much the same fashion as a driver who says to the people in the car "We are jumping off this cliff right now but I am open to suggestions - do we do it with 90 miles per hour or just 80?". Buffy's "strategy" only worked because The First was somehow even dumber than she was. It was based on nothing but a hunch and it wasn't going to work anyway if everyone had followed her into the vineyard. But that's to be expected when a writer creates an overpowered villain and has to basically have him gift the deus ex machina to the protagonist in order for the villain to be defeated. Caleb letting Buffy live just because the plot said so didn't exactly make the situation any less laughably silly, either.

iven what they were up against, it was very likely that a potential would die, either in that particular battle, or at some point to come. Certainly if they sat around talking about what to do some more, they would have been attacked anyway by Caleb or by a Turuk Han. Whether it happened in the Vineyard or at 1630 Revello Drive wouldn't make much of a difference in terms of their safety or preparedness.

If only Buffy and the rest had allies they could call for help like, I don't know, the US government, which was sending Riley to fight demons in Nepal and wherever and probably didn't want the world to end, or the coven that made Giles almost as powerful as Willow. But hey, it would be such great fun to have a deus ex machina provided by the villain of another TV show save the day. Buffy's planning is impeccable...

I am convinced the whole thing's main goal was for Spike to show how much he loves Buffy. Too bad it came across as a bad Spuffy fanfic. Then again one can say the same about the entire season.

 

[white avenger]

Buffy's sorry excuse of a plan can be described with the phrase "The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results."

By that definition just about every military leader in history is insane for attacking the same objective more than once before achieving victory. Buffy wasn't driving a car over a cliff, and she wasn't hosting a debate team. She was attempting to stop an extremely powerful enemy with a small group of barely trained and apparently poorly motivated fighters at her disposal. Certainly, she could have just sat back and said, "Well, we couldn't beat Caleb there, so, even though the indications are that there is something of vital importance there, let's go capture a Bringer and get it to tell us where to attack."

Remember what Spike said about casualties in a war? Buffy, her friends, and the Potentials were all that stood between The First Evil taking over the world, and, apparently, according to Joss' story line, calling for reinforcements wasn't an option. That means that, if people have to become injured or even die in order to defeat the enemy, regrettable as that may be, it is justified in order to achieve the objective. Wes summed it up quite correctly in the Season 2 episode of "Angel," "Through The Looking Glass" when he told Gunn that he could try and keep all of his fighters safe, or he could win the war, but he couldn't do both. Remember the Slayers' Creed? "The mission comes first." Remember what Buffy had to do in order to stop Acathla? Even though Angel had regained his soul, he had to be sacrificed in order to save the world. She certainly knew that people would be killed stopping the Ascension and Mayor Wilkins, but the objective outweighed the sacrifice. Dying in order to stop Glory from destroying the world cost Buffy her own life, but the objective outweighed the sacrifice.

Buffy wasn't conducting a debate in Season 7, she was fighting a war, and she had to use every resource at her disposal in order to save the world. Granted, she should have discussed her plans with Faith and the Scoobies before announcing it in front of the entire group, and in that way assured their support, but every indication pointed to the vineyard being the location of something that the First and its minions didn't want Buffy to have, possibly something of vital importance in helping her to achieve victory and save the world. That made going back in necessary, despite any risk of injury or death.

 

[Black Eye Guy]

I think the scoobies were right, Just because buffy had the strength doesn't mean she gets to make the decisions the way she was, she hadn't shown herself to be some great strategist till now, season 3,4,5 were all solved with a group effort that wasn't buffys plan, and season 6 was saved by Xander.

She had shown terrible leadership skills in season 7, her failed plan that got people killed, and her stupidest decision trusting spike all season when he could have been triggering all season in a house full of potentials, she was basically hoping the first wouldn't trigger him, as spike had no control. She kept him around because he was a total yes man, and buffy could do no wrong.

 

[Ripper666]

I think the scoobies were right, Just because buffy had the strength doesn't mean she gets to make the decisions the way she was...

Looks as if you have no good oppinion of Buffy as a leader... But hey I disagree with the part that Buffy is not a good leader. I agree with you and some others that Buffy lost her aim because she had to much fear. She was scared that a person she loves could happen something bad because she waited too long to do something against the first evil! She was scared that the potential slayers are in danger and that she couldn't protect them. But I think that she has proved in the past that she has the strenght to be a leader. She set hersef free for the council of watchers and she made a lot of good plans in the past. Her instinct is very good, I even pretend it's the best of all characters...(I know that's still another point about which we could discuss...). I don't want to say that Buffy's plan was all good, but the way the others told her was not correct, not after all the things she did for the potential Slayers and the Scoobie Gang .

 

[Cheese Slices]

I was totally on Buffy's side on this. They had no right to throw her out, or to criticize her, after everything she did for them. There's always loss in a war, it's unfair but it's the way it is, and they're all surprised because Buffy wants them to fight; well yeah this is war, remember ? The only one who is allowed to be against this is Xander, and he's the less aggressive one. It's easy to criticize when you're not actually in charge, I think they realized it with the arsenal failure.

 

[RipperGilesFan]

I was totally on Buffy's side on this. They had no right to throw her out, or to criticize her, after everything she did for them. There's always loss in a war, it's unfair but it's the way it is, and they're all surprised because Buffy wants them to fight; well yeah this is war, remember ? The only one who is allowed to be against this is Xander, and he's the less aggressive one. It's easy to criticize when you're not actually in charge, I think they realized it with the arsenal failure.

They didn't have a problem with having to fight ( they did that plenty of times before) it was the way Buffy wanted to go into the fight/the battleplan, in combination with Buffy's 'my way or the highway attitude, they had problems with. Which I could understand.

In that regard her comment, "it could have happened to me" didn't make a lot of sense, because it had happened to her

Then again, there wasn't a lot that did make sense in season 7 🙁

 

[Gum Gnome33]

Remember Graduation Day II? Buffy's plan was to tell all of the students at Sunnydale: "Hey! Vampires and demons are real and are about to start an apocalypse today at graduation--yes, today--and it's up to us to stop them, so here's an axe--oh it's too heavy?, here, take a bow and arrow--oh you've never used one?--well ok just uh, can you kick and punch? Er--Don't worry two of us in the fight have superpowers, it'll be ok, GO!"
And what happened? Kids died. Some were vamped. That's really tragic. Did the scoobies decide they were going to stop trusting, following, and/or generally having faith in Buffy because of it? Just because in the end the plan "worked?"
Now you could argue that another difference here is that in Dirty Girls Buffy rushed into something when she technically didn't have to fight the battle that night. But Caleb could have attacked any time. And the Turuk Han could have gotten into the house any night. And sure Buffy could have called Riley's guys. But so could any other member of the gang so they should all be held equally accountable for not doing so. No way should that fall entirely on Buffy.
So without help, they were sitting ducks 24/7. Just as they were while the mayor prepared to ascend. In both battles, her plan was not well thought out and was extremely rushed. It was time to act and she did so and made mistakes both times. Just because the outcome was different, (ie enemy defeated), does that mean the plan should be judged differently? Arguably, the plan to go into the Vineyard was better than the one in Grad Day because as far as she knew Caleb was just a regular, horrible guy and she had Faith, Spike, and potentials with her. Expecting the senior class to suddenly fight for their lives against a giant monster snake demon and a gang of vampires during an apocalypse seems like much more of a reckless plan on paper.
In both scenarios, (Grad Day and Dirty Girls), Buffy came up with a plan and people died because of it, (Chosen too obv but that hadn't happened yet so it is moot for the purposes of this discussion). She did what she thought was best at the time. The difference is that in Grad Day they ultimately averted the apocalypse and came out as heroes, and all of the scoobies walked away unscathed, though others died. What if Xander had lost an eye in that battle? Would things have been completely different? "Have fun at college Buffy, nice knowing you, you suck."

 

[Cheese Slices]

They didn't have a problem with having to fight ( they did that plenty of times before) it was the way Buffy wanted to go into the fight/the battleplan, in combination with Buffy's 'my way or the highway attitude, they had problems with. Which I could understand.🙁

The thing is , this plan isn't really different from the usual. They always more or less proceed like this: going to the monster, kill it, then party ^^
Besides, I just don't see what else they could've done. I mean I can get that they're scared about getting back to the vinyard, but I don't get the lack of trust, because she's earned that trust.

 

[Icarium]

By that definition just about every military leader in history is insane for attacking the same objective more than once before achieving victory.

Not really. Buffy's "plan" isn't problematic because it involves attacking Caleb, it's problematic because it's based on nothing but assumptions she pulled out of thin air. There is no reason whatsoever to think Caleb would be in the vineyard at all and even less of a reason to think his power source or whatever would be there either. She might as well have said "Caleb is in the land without shrimp, I can feel it". And yes, I know that bad writing ensured Buffy was somehow correct but the Scoobies weren't to know that Caleb would be stupid enough to lure Buffy to the very place he would be trying to keep her away from one day later. Nobody with two braincells to rub together would do that. Her assertion that Caleb showing up in the school, close to the seal means he wasn't guarding the seal was another curious piece of logic that didn't resemble earth logic.

So basically "let's think of a plan to dispose of Caleb" - good thinking. "Let's go to the vineyard, right now" - Buffy doing her Harmony impersonation.

Buffy, her friends, and the Potentials were all that stood between The First Evil taking over the world, and, apparently, according to Joss' story line, calling for reinforcements wasn't an option.

"According to the storyline" basically means "because the plot said so". I can't honestly expect the characters to do things based on that or blame them when they think there are other options which the writers intentionally don't mention. And even without the possibility of reinforcements Buffy's plan was stupid, for the reasons I pointed out above.

And sure Buffy could have called Riley's guys. But so could any other member of the gang so they should all be held equally accountable for not doing so. No way should that fall entirely on Buffy.

Sure, they were all morons in that situation. But since Buffy is supposedly the leader, she gets to be blamed the most for not asking for help.

So without help, they were sitting ducks 24/7. Just as they were while the mayor prepared to ascend. In both battles, her plan was not well thought out and was extremely rushed. It was time to act and she did so and made mistakes both times. Just because the outcome was different, (ie enemy defeated), does that mean the plan should be judged differently?

To be honest, I consider the Graduation Day plan to be very dumb too. They should have just caught the Mayor when he came to the library, cut him to pieces and thrown the pieces into the sea. Let's see what use would invulnerability be for him when he is fish food. But if we go with the assumption that the Mayor was so powerful that this weren't an option, the GD plan is better because it actually used the possible allies and the relevant info.

In both scenarios, (Grad Day and Dirty Girls), Buffy came up with a plan and people died because of it, (Chosen too obv but that hadn't happened yet so it is moot for the purposes of this discussion). She did what she thought was best at the time. The difference is that in Grad Day they ultimately averted the apocalypse and came out as heroes, and all of the scoobies walked away unscathed, though others died. What if Xander had lost an eye in that battle? Would things have been completely different? "Have fun at college Buffy, nice knowing you, you suck."

But the Scoobies objections against Buffy's leadership are not based on the Dirty Girls debacle only. They have to do with her ignoring the danger posed by Spike's trigger and general cold attitude towards everyone. Generally it's nigh on impossible to trust someone who doesn't trust you and to follow a leader whose idea of a plan is to either rush blindly or do nothing and hope for the best (Get it Done, Showtime, the whole Spike trigger storyline).

 

[SlayerFest]

I can't watch this episode without getting really, REALLY angry at what happened. Maybe I missed something somewhere along the line, but these people were living under Buffy's roof, enjoying her protection, eating her food, and sitting on their dead a**es all day long while she, usually with little or no help, literally stood between them and an army bound on killing them all. Then, they have to fight once, the battle goes wrong, and THEY are throwing Buffy out of HER, not Dawn's, own house. How does that make any sort of sense whatsoever? If they didn't like the way that she was running things, why didn't THEY leave? By that time, there were plenty of vacant houses all over Sunnydale, just standing abandoned.

I'm not saying that Buffy didn't screw up. She did. Things like that happen in war, and make no mistake, this most certainly WAS a war. And Buffy was the Commanding Officer, a fact acknowledged, or at least not disputed, by everyone there until the time came for them to have to start doing their share. Then, suddenly, the army wants to become a democracy. And where were Buffy's best friends in all the world, the people who had seen her snatch victory from the jaws of defeat time and again for the previous 7 years? Why, leading the mutineers, of course.

Yes, Buffy made a mistake in not discussing her plan with her friends before springing it on the whole group, so that she could count on their support. But even without that, Giles, Xander, and the others should have stood with her and at the very least suggested that they have a private meeting, Potentials, klepto sisters, former criminal masterminds, and ex High School Principals NOT included, in order to work out strategies and options.

Just about the only good thing to come out of that whole situation was Buffy and Spike finally getting to spend a night together, alone, without tearing a house down. Buffy recovering the Scythe was just the icing on the cake.

Yes. Just, yes. Every time that I watch that episode...ugh it just makes me so angry. I understood where they were coming from and I'm glad that they didn't follow her blindly, but that scene pisses me off whenever I watch it. They just seemed so unappreciative. She saved their lives time and time again. What really irked me was that they threw her out. How ridiculous. I also love that when Faith leads them into danger and gets tons of girls killed, everyone seems to forgive and forget. I remember Buffy getting the ultimate death stare from all of the lame ass potentials after their trip to the vineyard.

 

[Ripper666]

Was Dawn right to threw Buffy out of "their" house? I don't think so. Buffy gave all the potenzial slayers a home and then Dawn threw her out of exactly this home! That had to be pretty hard for her. After she shared so many things with all the people who critizses her...
Other oppinions? Additions?

 

[sosa lola]

Well actually she said that "Spike was the only one who had her back." And at that point, Giles had just betrayed her, she barely had a relationship with Willow or Xander,

I hated her for saying that. Especially with Xander being in the hospital, maimed, because he was watching her back.

In the original script, there was a shot of Xander and Willow looking hurt when Giles told everybody that Buffy didn't trust them. Buffy didn't even deny it. I think that played into Xander and Willow's inability to see her side.

 

[Dagenspear]

I hated her for saying that. Especially with Xander being in the hospital, maimed, because he was watching her back.

In the original script, there was a shot of Xander and Willow looking hurt when Giles told everybody that Buffy didn't trust them. Buffy didn't even deny it. I think that played into Xander and Willow's inability to see her side.

Oh boo freaking hoo. Buffy doesn't trust them, so they completely turn against her? Sounds to me like Buffy had good reason not to trust them. They weren't very trustworthy.