The Thing You Disliked Most About S6?

[EVIL UU]

[MENTION=12171]Ethan Reigns[/MENTION]

I don't know. Generally, Spike follows the same patterns and makes the same mistakes over and over again, he's an incredibly static character. What he wants with Buffy is the same thing he had with Dru, a long term...well, relationship pretty much. Turning Buffy into a vampire is the only way to make it work because Buffy ages, not to mention the slayer's limited life span thing. I mean, Spike did watch her die. This is how he can save her.

If he had a chance, if Buffy had wanted it ( totally not a possibility by the way as Buffy was a vampire and did not like it ) he would have done it, I think, consequences be damned. Look at this line from "After Life":

Listen. I've figured it out. Maybe you haven't, but I have. Willow knew there was a chance that she'd come back wrong. So wrong that you'd have ... that she would have to get rid of what came back. And I wouldn't let her. If any part of that was Buffy, I wouldn't let her. And that's why she shut me out.

Because a vampire Buffy, even a zombie Buffy ( ewww... ) is still better than no Buffy.

 

[lrsrusty]

The bathroom scene with spike and buffy.

 

[Merrick]

This has been mentioned previously but for me it was the lack of the Joss factor. He only writes and/or directs one episode in the entire season OMWF, which is great. For this reason S6 only has, IMO 3 really great episodes - Once More With Feeling, Older and Far Away (I know, I know) and Normal Again.

Even S4 has at least 5 great episodes. S6 just isn't memorable and it's because of lack of Joss.

 

[thetopher]

I think 'Life Serial' and 'Tabula Rasa' are also pretty good, both are some of the funnier episodes, with good charactisation.
(Also 'Graves' is also pretty good. Hmn, Giles is in all of them. Coincidence?)

The season starts well but it doesn't last, the season goes from one of it's best 'Tabula Rasa' to one of the worst 'Smashed' to almost the worst 'Wrecked'. (But wait, we still have 'Dead Things' and 'Seeing Red' to go...)

The thing is, I can't think of a single plot thread running through this season that isn't either boring, badly concieved or just horrible to watch.
Xanya's wedding, Dawn being ignored/stealing stuff (?), Willow's magic addiction, Spuffy *shudder*, Buffy's crippiling depression, Tara dying/Willow going evil...none of it good. 🙁

 

[Evil Angelus 95]

I think it's because Joss wasn't as involved as he had been in previous seasons. The quality very noticeably degrades quickly.

 

[nmcil12]

I think Warren was not only only of the great Big Bads, he was great character and Adam Busch was absolutely fabulous with his performance. Having the Nerds Trio as the face of the evil that men can do with the three outcast and was a great theme especially when you have them contrasted to the former innocent young Willow turned powerful witch.

Season Six is actually my favorite of all the seasons but I do have some things that I hated about it. I hated the complete and bizarre disconnect between the brutal attack and emotional breakdown of the alley scene and the next episode birthday party. How to you go from that level of violence and the next time these two characters meet it's like that incident never happened.

Spike as The Doctor - utter nonsense. You have a Spike who has been shown as having little economic means of support and then he has the resources to become an arms dealer. This is the same person who had to scare victims for their money who lives in a crypt and has to get his furnishings from the city dump.

However as my interpretation is that Dead Things, Older and Far Away and As You Were as a triad and the manifestations of Buffy's nightmare dreamscape - all the strangeness does fit together as the dreamscape inner demons of Buffy's mind.

While Spike as the Doctor works for me as part of Buffy's dreamscape inner demons - one thing that does work is the connection of Buffy thinking and telling Spike way back in Life Serial that "he was going to fix her life" when she is ranting about how pathetic her life has become. And we see Buffy becoming totally pathetic as soon as Riley shows up with his perfect Mrs. Riley and living the perfect life.

I really hate how the alley scene is totally dropped and I am probably in the rare group of fans who disliked the ending of the Dark Willow arc.

---------- Post added at 08:06 AM ---------- Previous post was at 07:29 AM ----------

Yosso:
I loved Season 6. It's actually tied with Season 3 as my second favourite season. What most people view as degrading and depressing I view as real, uninhibited, storytelling.

I wouldn't change much about the Spuffy relationship, even the degrading sex. I felt it served a purpose in the show to reflect Buffy's depressed, self-hating psychologically distorted state and it certainly achieved that and then some! If the sex was pointless and just an excuse to show nakedness, then I wouldn't be on board with it.

Excellent - totally agree with you - even as much as I hated the attempted rape - it was the utmost powerful, provocative and dramatic storytelling.

---------- Post added at 09:01 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:06 AM ----------

[MENTION=11975]Robb Stark[/MENTION], I actually agree entirely with your post^^^ about how the writers fail at their task to make season 6 more realistic. I mean the execution of it is very poor. As you say, Giles' exit is completely forced, Willow's drug addiction is almost comical (which is downright saying a whole lot), Dawn's problems are ridiculous, etc, etc.

However, I actually look past all of that and I do see season 6 as the most realistic, no thanks to all of the above mentioned obstacles.

First of all, on a more surface level, we have the "villains" or enemies who this season are humans. While, yes, we've seen humans and other souled beings commit crimes on the show before, this season focuses on three miserable, lonely and socially exiled boys who repeatedly harm, demean, and murder. This is very realistic indeed.

As I interpret season 6, the message is that the monsters are ourselves. The season is rife with betrayal, inappropriate treatment of loved ones, physical violence against loved ones, failure to function in such a way that leaves others hurt, and a wallowing in self pity and shame that leads one to destroy his/her own character.

These are all things that come across to me in spite of the troublesome and often cheesy way in which they are executed.

Giles, the father figure, abandons his daughter during her greatest time of need. It's done so poorly but regardless it is heartbreaking, and real.

Willow succumbs to the greediness that has been the result of years of real power, years of the vampire slayer needing her to survive. She is abusive and destructive to her self, to her lover, and to her friends. While what we see onscreen comes across as an after school special, the message is no less profound for me. And it's horribly realistic because, frankly, we see that there is a price for magic. There is a price for the convenience of being able to fix things instantly, to bring people back from the dead, to violate laws of nature in order to achieve a goal. What's worse is that Willow pays that price alone though she did not seek out the poison by herself. But because her behavior this season is so deplorable, there is no one who will agree to share the blame or to even consider the real source of her pain. This added layer is another realistic twist--another log on the fire.

Dawn's story as a kleptomaniac is bizarre for sure. But illustrated there is the mother figure, busy bringing in enough sustenance to survive and turning to her abusive relationship for solace, ignoring the child for whom she is responsible. It is more than realistic that Dawn would cry out for attention.

Xander leaves Anya on their wedding day, so consumed with his own worry that he will one day become is father that indeed that fear becomes a self fulfilling prophecy, in many ways. That he realized all of this too late is very realistic; there was no plot-contrived convenience in which he makes the call months or even days before the wedding.

Even Spike is like a faltering human being in this season. He demonstrates that he understands what it means to be loyal, he is at times empathetic, he is a man who loves a human being and attempts to have what at times passes as a relationship with her. And then he reverts to monster, he regresses, he attacks her.

The monsters are ourselves. Who will slay them?

Great Post - I totally agree with you - season six showing all the hard facts of having to provide for your economic survival, having to become a substitute parent, having to deal with loved who are destroying themselves with their life choices. Xander not wanting to deal with his fears and insecurities from his family history and not being honest with himself.

The theme of depression and how it effects people - the complex relationship that Buffy and Spike share. The brutality of abusive relationships and how Buffy and Spike interchange the roles as abuser and victim.

The list goes on and on about all the real life troubles that people have to deal with just to friggin get through life.

 

[Dre]

Hi new guy. I mean I do even see how or Y the trio was a big bad they had no Supernatural pws. They were pathetic to me. But I will give em credit. What bout U.

 

[November]

Yep easy one, the attempted rape scene. Makes me cringe everytime.

 

[AnthonyCordova]

I can't make up my mind about a lot of elements of Season 6: Buffy's spiritual malaise, Willow's magic addiction, Buffy's relationship with Spike, everything. I think I like season 6, but I need time to process everything. I'm not sure what my final feelings will be.

There is one thing I'm certain I dislike though: the trio. For many reasons. The greatest reason being that they are just pure caricature. They're like characters from the Big Bang Theory (a show I really dislike): everything about them is grossly exaggerated, for humor's sake. They are not plausible: real people don't act, think or behave like they do. They are caricature of the traits of real people. I don't know a better way to put it. Their presence in the show has been disruptive for me.

 

[thetopher]

I can't make up my mind about a lot of elements of Season 6: Buffy's spiritual malaise, Willow's magic addiction, Buffy's relationship with Spike, everything. I think I like season 6, but I need time to process everything. I'm not sure what my final feelings will be.

There is one thing I'm certain I dislike though: the trio. For many reasons. The greatest reason being that they are just pure caricature. They're like characters from the Big Bang Theory (a show I really dislike): everything about them is grossly exaggerated, for humor's sake. They are not plausible: real people don't act, think or behave like they do. They are caricature of the traits of real people. I don't know a better way to put it. Their presence in the show has been disruptive for me.

Yeah, I noticed how much the character of Jonathan was 'dumbed down' from 'Superstar' to when he appears in 'Fooded'- he's just become a caracature of himself, he's devolved as a character to fit in with Andrew and Warren.

Joss himself seems to think that the Trio are the thing about S6 he would go back and change- looking back he said S6 wasn't dark enough. 🙂eek🙂

 

[Robb Stark]

Yeah, I noticed how much the character of Jonathan was 'dumbed down' from 'Superstar' to when he appears in 'Fooded'- he's just become a caracature of himself, he's devolved as a character to fit in with Andrew and Warren.

Joss himself seems to think that the Trio are the thing about S6 he would go back and change- looking back he said S6 wasn't dark enough. 🙂eek🙂

I'd like to read that...do you have a source?

 

[thetopher]

I'd like to read that...do you have a source?

I'm sure I read it in Keith Topping's excellent 'Slayer: Complete Episode Guide To Buffy.' (taking an except from a sci-fi magazine interview) But I'm not 100%, I'll have to look it up.
It did seem like Joss had to defend S6 a lot from critics and fans alike.

Tara's death alone got him accused of homophobia. (undeservedly in my opinion.)

 

[Fuffy Baith]

I actually like season 6 a lot, more than 5. But the Trio is not menacing or threatening enough. they are just there for geeky comedic release. I'm not a fan of Spuffy, I don't think they should have gone there. I don't mind Willow's arc, I like seeing Alyson Hannigan play a different side of Willow. Tara gets better when they break up and I was sad that she dies. Also the monsters of the week are weak. I don't mind Riley coming back but Spike as the Doctor doesn't make sense. Maybe if we had seen him in some shady demon stuff I'd buy it more, but it really is just the catalyst that gets Buffy to break it off. Overall I'd rather re-watch season 6 than some of the other ones.

 

[EVIL UU]

[MENTION=12670]AnthonyCordova[/MENTION]

The Trio are stereotypes with less actual nerd cred than Buffy. Anyway, in my opinion they fit rather well into the narrative of the show. Now, I'm not saying that BtVS is a strictly feminist show but it does have a rather strong feminist angle, right? So, who is the public enemy number one of modern feminism?

A nerd is. The socially awkward, obsessed with nerdy things, misogynistic, uncool male you do not want to have sex with.

That's the trio. They are not meant to be developed or have any depth, they are not human beings, they are just nerds. They should not be allowed to live. You should hate them. Voilà , perfect villains!

One thing I find interesting. There are some striking similarities between The Trio, especially Warren, and Spike. Spike's a loser. Spike lives in a cave. Spike is creepy. Spike is a stalker. Spike has sex with a robot. Spike watches soap operas. Spike reads and writes poetry. Spike is a misogynist. Hey, isn't Spike a nerd? Spike hates women. Spike is an abuser. Spike used to torture and rape to death kids younger than Dawn. Spike tried to kill and rape both Buffy and Willow. And yet you are meant to love Spike, watch his so called growth, his journey and hate Warren. Notice how many times Warren is labelled as a misogynist on the show compared to Spike. Yes, Warren is a misogynist but next to Spike he's a small-timer. So, why is there such a huge difference in the portrayal of these two nerds and misogynists? Why is one of them meant to be hated and the other one meant to be loved? What makes them different? Well, for one you want to have sex with Spike. Basically, it's OK to be a misogynist as long as you are pretty - that's one message I certainly did not expect from this show.

 

[Robb Stark]

[MENTION=12670]AnthonyCordova[/MENTION]
Spike is a misogynist. Spike hates women.

Show me one contextual example of this. And no, Spike losing his temper one time and saying "you bloody women" does not make him a misogynist.

 

[thetopher]

[MENTION=12670]AnthonyCordova[/MENTION]

The Trio are stereotypes with less actual nerd cred than Buffy. Anyway, in my opinion they fit rather well into the narrative of the show. Now, I'm not saying that BtVS is a strictly feminist show but it does have a rather strong feminist angle, right? So, who is the public enemy number one of modern feminism?

A nerd is. The socially awkward, obsessed with nerdy things, misogynistic, uncool male you do not want to have sex with.

That's the trio. They are not meant to be developed or have any depth, they are not human beings, they are just nerds. They should not be allowed to live. You should hate them. Voilà , perfect villains!

One thing I find interesting. There are some striking similarities between The Trio, especially Warren, and Spike. Spike's a loser. Spike lives in a cave. Spike is creepy. Spike is a stalker. Spike has sex with a robot. Spike watches soap operas. Spike reads and writes poetry. Spike is a misogynist. Hey, isn't Spike a nerd? Spike hates women. Spike is an abuser. Spike used to torture and rape to death kids younger than Dawn. Spike tried to kill and rape both Buffy and Willow. And yet you are meant to love Spike, watch his so called growth, his journey and hate Warren. Notice how many times Warren is labelled as a misogynist on the show compared to Spike. Yes, Warren is a misogynist but next to Spike he's a small-timer. So, why is there such a huge difference in the portrayal of these two nerds and misogynists? Why is one of them meant to be hated and the other one meant to be loved? What makes them different? Well, for one you want to have sex with Spike. Basically, it's OK to be a misogynist as long as you are pretty - that's one message I certainly did not expect from this show.

I'm not sure it was purely a feminist thing. Isn't S6 about growing up and becoming an adult?
And so here we have three perenial child-like nerds who want the 'quick fix' easy life and screw uptheir lives and the lives of others in the process.
After all, all the Scooby's are nerds/outcasts, thats the shows thing. Xander-nerd. Willow-nerd. Buffy-outcast. Tara-nerd. Dawn-nerd.
Okay, they happen to be hot nerds/outcasts but still, the Trio aren't unique.

Though, I will say that the Trio does have an underlying 'woman hating' quality to it. Warren and Andrew definitly.

Plus, I would say that the nerd, in a cultural context, is more open to the idea of strong women. Most of the strong women in pop culture first came from sci-fi. Ripley, Sarah Conner, Xena. Nerds are femenist allies, not natural misogyonists.

And Spike...there is some truth in saying that Spike is misogyonistic, he has a complex relationship with women, I think he's part romantic, woman-worshipping (Drusilla, Buffy), but also part woman-hater. (Harmony and Buffy).
He has women issues harking back to Cecily and his mother. But 1) this is soulless Spike, I think soulled Spike is a lot more well-balanced. More of a hopeless romantic type, with a tough rebellious outer-coating.
and 2) it also has to do with power-relations he has with these women. If they slap him around or play games with him (Dru/Buffy) he worships them. If they fawn over him, or show weakness (Harmony/Buffy) he has power over them and will use it accordingly. It's far more complex than just straight-up woman-hate.

I can't believe I just defended Spike...😱

Oh, and Spike isn't a nerd. That's the problem, he was kept on the show because he was cool, 🙂rolleyes🙂 a snarking bully who some found sexy.
You want sexy nerd, think Xander, Giles or Wesley. They've all got nerd in them but they're stiill considered attractive types. 🙂

 

[EVIL UU]

[MENTION=11975]Robb Stark[/MENTION]

Show me one contextual example of this

Two on screen attempted rapes not good enough? Or the constant theme of blaming women for his own failures. Or how about his methods of fixing relationships, as in: I'll find her, wherever she is, tie her up, torture her until she likes me again.

See, this is what I'm talking about. Spike's just too cool and pretty to be a misogynist, right?

 

[AnthonyCordova]

The Trio are stereotypes with less actual nerd cred than Buffy.

What do you mean exactly? Do you mean to say that the whole point of the trio was to be caricature? If that was really the case I would say that that was a regrettable decision on the part of the writers. They stand out too much (in all of the wrong ways) against most other things in the show, especially every preceding character. Good or evil, likeable or not, every other character to that point was a fully realized creation, a realistic and (in some ways at least) relatable type. Observing characters from BtVS offers us insight into the human experience because they are not exaggerated caricature but rather realistic and human. From what I can gather, it is this reason, more than any other reason, that Buffy was such a success. Caricature might have its place somewhere else (such as in satire or some kind of ironic commentary) but this show had already long established its identity and poorly done caricature like the trio just works at complete cross-purposes to everything Buffy was about. And I don't think the writers intended for the trio to be caricature anyway(nor do I think that they intended the trio to be caricature for the purpose of making certain points). I think they were just pressured by the feeling that they needed some counter-balance for that season's darker than ordinary mood. And it all went wrong and they unwittingly created stupid caricatures of people that don't fit the rest of the show. Anyway, I think it is obvious that they are just really dumb exaggerated caricatures for humor's sake but whatever. Not everyone will agree.

Now, I'm not saying that BtVS is a strictly feminist show but it does have a rather strong feminist angle, right? So, who is the public enemy number one of modern feminism? A nerd is.The socially awkward, obsessed with nerdy things, misogynistic, uncool male you do not want to have sex with.

I'm sorry, I don't see it. I know my fair share of nerds and not a single one of them is even remotely misogynistic. What exactly about being a nerd promotes misogyny? Misogynists come in all shapes and sizes but if I were challenged to seek out a group of people to find them in, "nerdy types" would not be very high on that list. Uncool? Certainly they are to a lot of people (although there is such a thing as 'nerd-cool' too). Socially awkward? Oftentimes, yes. But inherently misogynistic? Public enemy number one of modern feminism? I must say I've never heard that theory before...

That's the trio. They are not meant to be developed or have any depth, they are not human beings, they are just nerds. They should not be allowed to live. You should hate them. Voilà , perfect villains!

I don't care if they are nerds or not, I don't think there is anything unreasonable about expecting them "to be developed or have any depth". There is nothing unreasonable about holding these characters to the high standard set by (most) of the rest of the show. They don't make some sort of deep point or commentary by being undeveloped and lacking depth either. They're just mistakes (in my opinion)...at least as they are in their final form. They are just a bad choice/decision/direction by the writers. The show really (really) didn't need any of that.

And are you saying that nerds don't deserve to be allowed to live and that we should hate them? Or are you saying that this is the position of the "feminist" writers of the show? Either way, I don't agree with that opinion. Maybe you were just being funny and I missed it. Why would anyone be that put-off by such all-in-all harmless types of people like mere nerds? They're certainly not worth getting worked up about. There are few things deserving of real hate in the world. So I take it your just exaggerating for effect or being funny.

I do agree with you that the creative team behind the scenes of the show are sympathetic to feminist concerns. From what I've seen, Joss Whedon has said as much in interviews. So your right there I think.

 

[Robb Stark]

[MENTION=11975]Robb Stark[/MENTION]


Two on screen attempted rapes not good enough? Or the constant theme of blaming women for his own failures. Or how about his methods of fixing relationships, as in: I'll find her, wherever she is, tie her up, torture her until she likes me again.

See, this is what I'm talking about. Spike's just too cool and pretty to be a misogynist, right?

Well, I can only think of one.

Also, note that I said contextual example. You're just omitting the fact that for everything you listed Spike was a soulless vampire. Angelus treats every woman we see him interact with like complete crap, because he's soulless. He's evil. He's a vampire. Spike proclaiming he's going to torture Drusilla is a product of that same formula. He's evil. We see vampires doing things like that constantly in the series, almost every episode.

I take your point about Spike blaming some of the women in his life for his problems (altough he clearly does not do this for all of the women he's in constant communication with. We don't exactly see him lambasting his life's woes on Willow, Darla, Tara, Joyce or Dawn. Hell, for the bulk of his time, with and without a soul, he shows great affection for Dawn, and Joyce prior to that), but I don't think that's a reflection of misogyny. Spike, for all his cool, is a very insecure character until S7. He blames Angel/Angelus for the vast majority of his problems as well. Does that mean he hates men? He's insecure. He blames EVERYONE but himself when he doesn't have a soul. And if Spike, with or without a soul, despises women so much, then how do you explain his relationships with Dawn and Joyce?

Also, your implication about my defending Spike is out of line. We've had numerous debates together on this site. You're a perceptive guy. I think you know me well enough by now to understand that saying I'm only defending pretty people is a bush-league attempt to score cheap debate points. You're better than that dude.

 

[The Bronze]

One thing I find interesting. There are some striking similarities between The Trio, especially Warren, and Spike. Spike's a loser. Spike lives in a cave. Spike is creepy. Spike is a stalker. Spike has sex with a robot. Spike watches soap operas. Spike reads and writes poetry. Spike is a misogynist. Hey, isn't Spike a nerd? Spike hates women. Spike is an abuser. Spike used to torture and rape to death kids younger than Dawn. Spike tried to kill and rape both Buffy and Willow. And yet you are meant to love Spike, watch his so called growth, his journey and hate Warren. Notice how many times Warren is labelled as a misogynist on the show compared to Spike. Yes, Warren is a misogynist but next to Spike he's a small-timer. So, why is there such a huge difference in the portrayal of these two nerds and misogynists? Why is one of them meant to be hated and the other one meant to be loved? What makes them different? Well, for one you want to have sex with Spike. Basically, it's OK to be a misogynist as long as you are pretty - that's one message I certainly did not expect from this show.

The main difference is that Spike is a soulless vampire. It's his job description to be evil. Sure he mostly hates women. He hates men as well. He's not exactly that keen on other vampires either. He enjoys people on the "happy meals with legs level". None of that makes him a misogynist, it just makes him a vampire.