Please give me one instance where he blames Angelus rather than shouldering the blame himself. The issue isn't how the fans supposedly present the issue, it's how the show handled it. And I think that Spike was given an excuse in the form of a soul that didn't
I can't think of a way to word this better than I already have. It's not just one instance in which Angel said, "Angelus did this. Not me." It's the way the character is built and treated as a whole. It's the way ensoulled Angel is one person, while Angelus is someone
completely different. It's the way the show built up the soul to mean that having one can make you someone entirely new. It's the fact that he broods and searches for redemption, but even while he does he's
not Angelus--he's Angel. They even have different names, for Goodness' sake!
Also, part of what I factor into my argument
is the way the fandom treats the characters, because that's what I see most often. I don't watch an episode of Buffy a day, but I DO come here nearly every day. And I see the exact opposite of what you see--I see Spike constantly being condemned, while Angel's always got his alter-ego to blame. It's because there isn't as firm a line with Spike as there is with Angel that Spike most often receives blame and disapproval.
In any case, Becky is right that we shouldn't compare the two. Sorry if I started that train myself--I honestly didn't try to. I like Angel--I really do! But where Angel is the wounded, burdened and brave hero, I find Spike to be his messed-up, less powerful, slightly stupider yet fiercely loyal and entirely lovable foil.
But I used to love Spike. He was one of my favourite characters. This "bias" only came from him starting to become a loathsome character in my eyes through some of his actions and other characters' responses. If anything I was sugarcoating his character for a while because I liked him so much, until eventually I gave up and said "screw this, he's really start to piss me off". That was in S6. Then at the start of S7 I said to myself "self, forget about S6, he didn't have a soul then, let him start anew and judge him on that". He managed to break my optimism then too.
I think we should all stop talking about "bias" against or for a certain character. It's not really what bias means. For example, if you are a Bangel shipper you may be biased towards disliking Spuffy. But it doesn't make you biased towards liking Bangel. You like Bangel because you like Bangel. I dislike late-season Spike because I don't like late-season Spike. There's no bias involved, I'm simply judging his actions.
I meant it in the way that, because you dislike him, you see everything he does through that dislike and it colors his actions. I've seen this a lot--for one example, suddenly
everything Spike did for Buffy is self-centered and selfishly motivated, though I can't imagine how staying and protecting her sister after Buffy's dead is selfishly motivated. But perhaps I meant that particular argument more to those opinions than yours.
And he clearly felt really bad for Wood too. :rolleyes2 Expressing one line of guilt isn't enough - he never even said sorry to anyone but Buffy.
Out of curiosity, (and I really mean this honestly, not sarcastically) who did you want him to apologize to? His victims are all dead and gone, and I'm not sure that he needed to directly apologize to the Scoobies. For hurting Buffy, perhaps, but he said that to her. For trying to kill them, maybe, but he had been living for years with them past that, and obviously he didn't succeed. Besides that, the Scoobies had their own things they should have apologized for, yet they never did.
There wasn't time? Then they should've made time! It's not like it would've taken up a lot - in three seasons of Buffy, Angel's angst was only "delved into" in one episode, Amends. The rest was worked into his general character and dialogue.
Right, but Angel also had his own show after that, in which we were constantly told of the guilt he felt. In addition, he was
introduced as that burdened, guilt-ridden character, right from the very beginning. Making Spike so now would have meant a rebuilding of his character. They did work it into general dialogue and into his actions, such as wanting Buffy to kill him when the First was controlling him. He said more than once that he felt guilty for what he'd done, and I do attribute part of his insanity to that guilt. I know not everyone agrees, but that's my view of it. I saw him as a chastened, changed version of himself in S7.
Also, I'm not asking for a broody Spike. There's not much I want less than a broody Spike. I just want a Spike that isn't given the get-out clause of a soul as much as he was in S7.
You know, when I really think about it, it's not Spike who really annoys me the most in S7. It's how other people react to him - and when I say other people I mean Buffy. She constantly gives him the get-out soul clause, chooses him over her friends, refuses to see the bigger picture, letting him free out of his chains when he is still a danger to everyone around him. Not to mention that he got far too much screentime for my liking, while three of the original core four were often pushed to the side. Of course, Spike himself annoyed me too, but that helped.
See, I felt they gave us a Spike that accepted responsibility and knew the wrongness of his past actions. That's really what I saw. Anymore than that, and I feel we would have gotten Angel 2.0. I saw a Spike who was well aware of his past actions ("As wicked and evil as I was, I never hated myself. Not like I do now", "It haunts me, all of it", etc), and a Spike who no longer expected Buffy to reciprocate his love. No cozy crypt with a view, remember? No, he didn't immediately throw himself onto a path of redemption like Angel, but he helped Buffy in her war and ultimately sacrificed himself. Just because you said the cut-off date was Chosen does not mean I don't factor that in hugely. It's kind of a big deal! =P
I was talking specifically about what he has done during S7, not just before and not right at the end and not on AtS. Even more specifically, what he has done between the start of S7 and that scene in "Never Leave Me".
Well, fighting for Buffy, allowing her to use him as the vampire example to train the Potentials, being there for her in general and offering his support are all good things. Again, not huge gestures of his desire for redemption, but enough for me. He was also dealing with being a puppet to the first and then being kidnapped by her/him/it.
Again, I don't really see why you've cut it off before Chosen. Spike's actions in AtS have a lot of weight too, because they show his shift from being a pretty good guy to actually wanting to be a hero. Plus he did all of it separately from Buffy, which is an even bigger acheivement for him. Snaps for Spike.
OK, so Wood attacked him. Spike defends himself? Perfectly acceptable. Spike almost kills him? Wrong, but understandable. Not apologising for killing his mother? Reflects badly on him. Taunting him, telling him that his dead mother never loved him? Horrible, bordering on evil.
Interesting perspective--hadn't quite thought of it that way before. And yeah, if you're looking for an example where Spike isn't as sorry as he should be, you've found it there. However, I don't think it negates everything else I've already listed.
Well in the end, all it comes down to is our own opinions and interpretations. We're just throwing them at each other. 🙂
Very true! Please excuse any throwing. I generally try not to ram my opinion down people's throats, but sometimes I get worked up!
So he didn't feel vaguely sorry for Robin's mother because he's putting on a facade and was reluctant to let the sensitive side of him show? So he told him those horrible things to protect his poetic soul from showing? I fail to see how that's any better.
I was not excusing that moment in particular, and again, he probably should have been sorrier than he was about Robin. The veneer comment referred to the season as a whole, and a possible explanation as to why he didn't constantly wear his guilt on his sleeve. He even said, in response to Wood knowing of his soul, that it was a "very private" matter.
I never said that. I want Spike to do his own thing. I just don't want him to act like an a-hole to anyone who isn't Buffy, and I don't want Buffy to continually make excuses for him and side with him.
For the record, I don't like Buffy in S6 or 7 either. 😉
I think he was better in general in S7. He didn't want to hurt anyone, and he was certainly better to the Scoobies, though at this point none of them really liked him (for admittedly good reasons). He was an a-hole to Wood, but Wood was equally an a-hole to him. In luring Spike, cornering him and using The First's trigger to make Spike lose control, I don't think Wood deserves as much benefit as you're giving him. But that is, after all, just my opinion.
