The whole grudge on Spike....

[Kelsey]

Sorry, As I said I wasn't saying all Spuffys, but I do stick to what I said. I think people that take a part of a characters history or a character trait and dismiss it as part of a plot device are delusional, and I really think that is a fair thing to say.

First, I want to address this, BEG. I understand you were only pointing out the innaccuracy of what WA saidwith your other posts, but this part of it is a gross misuse of the word "delusional."

A person is delusional if he or she refuses to face something in his or her own life--for example, someone is delusional if her boyfriend hits her and she refuses to see it as an act of violence, but rather twists it into an act of love. A person is also delusional if he or she believes Buffy, Spike and the rest are really out there somewhere, saving the world as we speak.

You are not delusional if you too easily forgive or look over the faults of your favorite characters. These people are not real, no matter how much we obsess over them, and they have no effect on our lives. It does not hurt viewers to look over the faults of their favorite characters, nor does it mean that they would do the same for people in their own lives. I love Spike, but I would never befriend a mass murderer, no matter how reformed he may seem. We are allowed to lose ourselves in fantasy and to view it as we see fit, because it is not reality.

Just felt that needed to be said.

Mainly, I wanted him to apologise to Wood. Him refusing to do so really reflected badly on him in ym view. Apologising to the Scoobies would've been nice as well. Only apologising to Buffy made him look like he only cared about her and nobody else, which is a trait I don't like in people.

Understood. I feel like at that point, the show and the characters may have treated Spike like he was right with Wood simply because he was a main character and Wood was not. I was certainly more inclined to be angry at Wood for trying to kill my favorite character than I would angry at Spike for killing Wood's mother, but I do understand your point.

I also feel like, though Spike hunted down the Slayers, it's not his worst crime. Slayers exist to destroy his kind, so in a fight like that, either she would have died or he would have. She was fighting to kill, and so was he. But I agree it doesn't lesson the effect his mother's death had on Wood, and it was wrong on all counts.

I cut it off because it was specifically Buffy's comments in "Never Leave Me" that bugged me. It doesn't matter what happened beforehand, Buffy congratulated him on his "penance" before he'd actually done any. From getting his soul until that point, he'd babbled in a basement for a while and then killed a few people while brainwashed. Nothing penance-y whatsoever. I felt that the show was giving Spike credit where, at that point, credit really wasn't due.

Ahhh, gotcha. I think Spike getting his soul back was what caused Buffy to believe in him. And it is understandably a big deal--as far as we know, no vampire in the 'verse has ever done the same. When she said he "saw the monster in him and fought back," I took it to mean she believed in him because he made the effort to really, truly make himself a better man. But I do understand your impatience with her, even if I enjoyed it from my perspective.

I think I should say that I am currently watching S7 for the very first time (just two episodes to go!), and so my opinion on Spike and all the other characters will fluctuate depending on which episode I watched last. I quite liked Spike in "Empty Places", and "Touched" contained a Spuffy moment that didn't make me want to vomit, quite an improvement. Hence the lesser Spike hate.

Ooooh, really? Very cool. I like to see fresh reactions. =)

Spike killed Wood's mother. Maybe trying to kill Spike wasn't Wood's best decision, but I can completely sympathise with him and understand his actions. Spike was fine for me for large parts of the season, but the way he was presented in a few episodes, mainly Never Leave Me and LMPTM, really bugged me and reflected badly on his character as a whole.

Understood. I generally side with Spike--it just happens, I can't help it!--but I get what you're saying.

 

[Kean]

I'll have to rewatch the scene but from what I remember it Angel was absolutely agressive and using her BUT it was Darla that was pulling of his pants and underwear in the scene not him. And as I recall they had sex three times that night. Hardly constitutes as rape.

Making someone else bad doesn't take the heat off Spike. Especiallly when it is a big stretch of the truth.

Found the transcript.

Angel enters his apartment, stops a few steps in.
Angel: "What do you want, Darla? (Holds up the ring and looks over his shoulder) You want this?"
Angel drops the ring on the floor and Darla hurries over to pick it up. Before she can, Angel grabs her arm and sends her stumbling towards the wall.
Angel: "Or maybe what you really want is this! (Pushes her up against the wall and gently brushes the hair back from her face) That may be - what you really want, isn't it?"
Kisses her softly, then, when she doesn't react, a little harder. Darla pushes him away.
Darla: "Don't play games with me."
Angel: "I'm not playing. I just wanna feel something besides the cold."
Pushes her back onto a table, lowers himself on top of her and kisses her again. Darla reaches up and pushes his jacket off his shoulders, kissing him back. Angel strips off his jacket with her help, still kissing her. Suddenly Darla begins to laugh and Angel pulls back the same time she pushes him and gets up.
Angel: "Why're you laughing?"
Darla continues to laugh, not answering him, and Angel hits her, sending her crashing through the glass doors leading to his bedroom. Angel slowly walks after her as she rolls over and looks up at him.
Angel: "Don't you feel the cold?"
Angel grabs her by the shoulders and pulls her up.
Darla: "What're you doing?"
Angel: "It doesn't matter. (Strokes the side of her face) None of it matters."
He kisses her again and she responds. They fall back onto the bed and strip off each other's clothes.

Source: Reprise Transcript - Angel Episode 37

As you can see from this. Angel is abosutely rough and violent with Darla but she is also into it. He treats her much like he did when he found her in his apartment in S1 Buffy. He was hurting her but being a twisted vampire she liked it. When they do have sex she is more than willing.

Big difference between that and Buffy pleading for Spike to not hurt her.

 

[Black Eye Guy]

First, I want to address this, BEG. I understand you were only pointing out the innaccuracy of what WA saidwith your other posts, but this part of it is a gross misuse of the word "delusional."

A person is delusional if he or she refuses to face something in his or her own life--for example, someone is delusional if her boyfriend hits her and she refuses to see it as an act of violence, but rather twists it into an act of love. A person is also delusional if he or she believes Buffy, Spike and the rest are really out there somewhere, saving the world as we speak.

You are not delusional if you too easily forgive or look over the faults of your favorite characters. These people are not real, no matter how much we obsess over them, and they have no effect on our lives. It does not hurt viewers to look over the faults of their favorite characters, nor does it mean that they would do the same for people in their own lives. I love Spike, but I would never befriend a mass murderer, no matter how reformed he may seem. We are allowed to lose ourselves in fantasy and to view it as we see fit, because it is not reality.

Just felt that needed to be said.

How is it not ok to use the word delusional when referring to a fictional character. I get what your saying but it is still fine to use the word delusional.

The dictionary definition of delusional :

"“noun
1. an act or instance of deluding.
2. the state of being deluded.
3. a false belief or opinion: delusions of grandeur.
4. Psychiatry. a fixed false belief that is resistant to reason or confrontation with actual fact: a paranoid delusion.

Joss Whedon wrote the character of Spike, part of his character was that at one point he attempted rape Buffy.

that is the fact, the character of Spike attempted to rape someone in Season 6.

Some people are under the false belief that this is not part of his character, but merely a plot device.

It totally works to use the word delusional in here, as people are deluded as to what makes up the character of Spike.

Out of interest if it's not delusional what word would it be?

 

[Kelsey]

How is it not ok to use the word delusional when referring to a fictional character. I get what your saying but it is still fine to use the word delusional.

The dictionary definition of delusional :

"“noun
1. an act or instance of deluding.
2. the state of being deluded.
3. a false belief or opinion: delusions of grandeur.
4. Psychiatry. a fixed false belief that is resistant to reason or confrontation with actual fact: a paranoid delusion.

Joss Whedon wrote the character of Spike, part of his character was that at one point he attempted rape Buffy.

that is the fact, the character of Spike attempted to rape someone in Season 6.

Some people are under the false belief that this is not part of his character, but merely a plot device.

It totally works to use the word delusional in here, as people are deluded as to what makes up the character of Spike.

Out of interest if it's not delusional what word would it be?

Well, I'm not going to get into an argument over word meaning, but I still think it's too harsh. I would not consider someone delusional only because they viewed a character in a television show a certain way. I also think it's offensive to say so.

I wouldn't really use any word to describe it, honestly, other than opinion or point of view. It is someone's opinion that Spike's attempted rape was not in character but instead was a plot device by the writers. They have every right to think that way.

 

[Black Eye Guy]

Well, I'm not going to get into an argument over word meaning, but I still think it's too harsh. I would not consider someone delusional only because they viewed a character in a television show a certain way. I also think it's offensive to say so.

I wouldn't really use any word to describe it, honestly, other than opinion or point of view. It is someone's opinion that Spike's attempted rape was not in character but instead was a plot device by the writers. They have every right to think that way.

I do fully understand where you are coming from, but if something is written for the character or it's something they have done that act becomes part of their character.

People who dismiss it as a plot device, that isn't opinion or a point of view becasue they are dismissing something that is part of that character to fit their own grounds.

Take for example the I love you moment in chosen, I see that as Buffy not being In love with Spike, others see it as Buffy saying she is in Love with Spike, thats to different opinions.

But to dismiss something as a plot device, it just isn't an opinion it's deluding oneself to fit what you want to see.

I'm not trying to start an argument either, just want to explain my choice of word, as I know a few people have had a problem with it, but I think it works perfectly for this particular situation.

 

[Kelsey]

I do fully understand where you are coming from, but if something is written for the character or it's something they have done that act becomes part of their character.

People who dismiss it as a plot device, that isn't opinion or a point of view becasue they are dismissing something that is part of that character to fit their own grounds.

Take for example the I love you moment in chosen, I see that as Buffy not being In love with Spike, others see it as Buffy saying she is in Love with Spike, thats to different opinions.

But to dismiss something as a plot device, it just isn't an opinion it's deluding oneself to fit what you want to see.

I'm not trying to start an argument either, just want to explain my choice of word, as I know a few people have had a problem with it, but I think it works perfectly for this particular situation.

I understand what you're saying, I just don't think it constitutes being deluded. =P But yeah, not looking for an argument! Just wanted to state my opinion, which I've done, so.... moving on!

I've got a riddle for all of you!

Do Spike-fans defend Spike because he's condemned constantly, or is he condemned constantly because Spike-fans defend him?

 

[Kean]

I understand what you're saying, I just don't think it constitutes being deluded. =P But yeah, not looking for an argument! Just wanted to state my opinion, which I've done, so.... moving on!

I've got a riddle for all of you!

Do Spike-fans defend Spike because he's condemned constantly, or is he condemned constantly because Spike-fans defend him?

That's like the chicken/eeg question!

Here's my answer though:

Spike fans will go with option one and non-Spike fans will go with the latter.

 

[Kelsey]

That's like the chicken/eeg question!

Here's my answer though:

Spike fans will go with option one and non-Spike fans will go with the latter.

Yep, that's what I'm expecting! But it could be a fun discussion.

 

[Kean]

Yep, that's what I'm expecting! But it could be a fun discussion.

Or we could all kill each other again! lol

For me, I used to like Spike but felt that he was romancised alot by fans. On top of that I was frustrated by his actions in the actual show and alot of the time what I saw onscreen was in complete contention with his fans. It's all interpretation at the end of the day but I did feel that, on Buffy especially, that he became hero without having truly earned that title. Chosen was a start but for me he still has miles to go before he sleeps.

 

[Black Eye Guy]

Do Spike-fans defend Spike because he's condemned constantly, or is he condemned constantly because Spike-fans defend him?

Interesting question.
I have similar expierience to Kean.

I loved Spike season 1-2, in 4 and 5 he was funny, the mild Buffy obsession was kinda funny and worked for his character, In season 6 and 7, I just found him boring.

I'm not really a big 'Shipper, but I always had a problem with how fans were able to cover over things like the attempted rape, and I think it was through my discussions that I went more heavily into the really disliking Spuffy camp.

 

[Kelsey]

I can see how that happens. I'm a Spike-fan to the core and even I've grown tired of pro-Spike arguments for his actions in Seeing Red. However, I feel like if there wasn't such a constant bashing of Spike, there also wouldn't be as much praise. I mean, sure there would be in the Spuffy/Spike threads, but I don't think people would argue Spike's awesomeness as much if there weren't a constant need to defend him.

There are other characters I love--Faith and Anya being the major ones--that I could argue for just as fiercely, but I don't need to because they're crimes aren't brought up enough.

 

[Black Eye Guy]

I can see how that happens. I'm a Spike-fan to the core and even I've grown tired of pro-Spike arguments for his actions in Seeing Red. However, I feel like if there wasn't such a constant bashing of Spike, there also wouldn't be as much praise. I mean, sure there would be in the Spuffy/Spike threads, but I don't think people would argue Spike's awesomeness as much if there weren't a constant need to defend him.

There are other characters I love--Faith and Anya being the major ones--that I could argue for just as fiercely, but I don't need to because they're crimes aren't brought up enough.

Absolutely, it's a total vicious circle of praise and hate, each expanding eachother.

Yeah totally agree about other characters, Willow I always though was a big one, I think that could have had the same hate and praise expanding argument but people don't bring it up as often.

(like when it comes to the AR, I'll condemn Spike to hell, but if it's Willow she can do no wrong, lol!)

 

[Kean]

Absolutely, it's a total vicious circle of praise and hate, each expanding eachother.

Yeah totally agree about other characters, Willow I always though was a big one, I think that could have had the same hate and praise expanding argument but people don't bring it up as often.

(like when it comes to the AR, I'll condemn Spike to hell, but if it's Willow she can do no wrong, lol!)

Lyri can vouch for me on this, I reserve the exact same sentiment for Willow that I do for Spike. Like you said though, it doesn't get brought up as much or at all actually.

 

[Kelsey]

Absolutely, it's a total vicious circle of praise and hate, each expanding eachother.

Yeah totally agree about other characters, Willow I always though was a big one, I think that could have had the same hate and praise expanding argument but people don't bring it up as often.

(like when it comes to the AR, I'll condemn Spike to hell, but if it's Willow she can do no wrong, lol!)

Really? Haha, I'd love to have the Willow debate with you! I'd definitely be on the opposing side, much as I do like her. The lack of condemnation for Willow has definitely spurred my annoyance with her, so there's a cycle there, too.

Lyri can vouch for me on this, I reserve the exact same sentiment for Willow that I do for Spike. Like you said though, it doesn't get brought up as much or at all actually.

I appreciate that! And on this you and I definitely agree.

Edit: And sorry for this double-post! I meant for them to merge, but they didn't for some reason. Curious.

 

[Black Eye Guy]

Really? Haha, I'd love to have the Willow debate with you! I'd definitely be on the opposing side, much as I do like her. The lack of condemnation for Willow has definitely spurred my annoyance with her, so there's a cycle there, too.


I appreciate that! And on this you and I definitely agree.

Edit: And sorry for this double-post! I meant for them to merge, but they didn't for some reason. Curious.

It would be a total role reversal, I've never had the big proper discussion about Willow in the same way as the AR.

Well hasn't this discussion become very tame and balanced all of a sudden, lol!

Bangels and Spuffy getting along in the same thread.

 

[Kean]

It would be a total role reversal, I've never had the big proper discussion about Willow in the same way as the AR.

Well hasn't this discussion become very tame and balanced all of a sudden, lol!

Bangels and Spuffy getting along in the same thread.

Quick, pick a fight! 😛

 

[Kelsey]

Bangels and Spuffy getting along in the same thread.

Quick, somebody call Buffy! It's gotta be a sign of the Apocalypse!

 

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

Kelsey and Kean, I'd love to discuss Willow with you two. The only two characters I hate in the 'verse are Kennedy and Season 4 Conner, but I also have a lot of animosity and dislike for Willow. I know this isn't a popular opinion - she's a popular character - so I don't bring up very often how I feel about her.

Do Spike-fans defend Spike because he's condemned constantly, or is he condemned constantly because Spike-fans defend him?

Oooh, this one is a doozy, lol. I don't even know where to start with answering this. Personally, I think I defend Spike as much as I do because of the fact that he's insulted, put down, and his actions are disregarded so frequently. I think of Spike like my little pet; I'm fiercely protective of him. He's my favorite fictional character, ever.

I think it's a vicious cycle. Who knows how it started. I only discovered the show in 2005, but I think it'd be interesting to know what fans initial reactions were to his character, and how their reactions changed as he did and with the progression of the show.

 

[Kelsey]

Kelsey and Kean, I'd love to discuss Willow with you two. The only two characters I hate in the 'verse are Kennedy and Season 4 Conner, but I also have a lot of animosity and dislike for Willow. I know this isn't a popular opinion - she's a popular character - so I don't bring up very often how I feel about her.


Oooh, this one is a doozy, lol. I don't even know where to start with answering this. Personally, I think I defend Spike as much as I do because of the fact that he's insulted, put down, and his actions are disregarded so frequently. I think of Spike like my little pet; I'm fiercely protective of him. He's my favorite fictional character, ever.

I think it's a vicious cycle. Who knows how it started. I only discovered the show in 2005, but I think it'd be interesting to know what fans initial reactions were to his character, and how their reactions changed as he did and with the progression of the show.

Yep, I agree with you! I actually don't hate any character on BtVS, and I don't tend to condemn them as a result. I get very annoyed with characters like Kennedy, but even then I don't really hate her--would just prefer she get the heck out of the story. The only time I get riled up, really, is defending my favorite character. And boy, did I pick a good one for that attitude!

I'm not sure I could muster up real animosity for Willow just 'cause that's not really how I am, but I definitely think I could put in a good argument as to why her actions deserve more blame than they get.

If I had to guess fan reactions, I'd guess them to be more or less the way they are now. Certain fans really loved Spike and praised him, while others got annoyed because they didn't like Spike and didn't think he deserved the credit he got.

Also, do you guys think Willow's forgiven more often and Spike condemned more often because she's human and he's a demon? I know it also has a lot to do with how real Spike's AR seemed, but I wonder about this point too, in general. People are very, very quick to point out that Spike is a vampire/demon/monster/evil in nearly every Spike discussion. It always has less to do with his feelings, emotions and thoughts than the fact that he's a demon. I would find it interesting if, in a way, he and his actions are considered worse because of what it is, when logically, it should be the other way around. Willow had a soul, she was one of the "good guys," and she abused Tara and her friends in such an awful way.

 

[Willow-Tree]

I would love to discuss Willow too! 😛