The Whole Lack of Grudge Against Willow....

I never thought for a second that magic took control of Willow's mind, and that is why it's always been hard for me to like her after season 6. The things she said and did were a part of who Willow is, and from what we seen, well, Willow is a bitch.
She takes pleasure in the thoughts of beating Buffy and Giles, she threatens to turn Dawn back into an energy ball, while taunting her for crying over the death of Joyce, whose house Willow's been staying at. Nice. And the big one, she tries to kill everyone on the planet, because she's so self involved, that her own pain is worth the lives of everyone. Yup, Willow is a bitch.
I think she also got one of the greatest get out of jail free cards in the history of the show. She was forgiven far to easily, and to move onto Kennedy so fast, just made all the her evil deeds in the past seem so much worse. And then the whole kicking Buffy out of the house, well that really just pissed me off.
So on the Willow score card. Loved her in seasons 1,2,3. Didn't like her in season 4. Loved her in season 5. Loathed her in season 6. Didn't give a crap about her in season 7.
 
My impression is that she called on some very powerful magic that she couldn't handle and that it totally overtook her and she wasn't in control anymore.
Like it's also about to do a few times in season 7. But by then she better prepared and manage to keep the control. Even though she is constantly afraid to loose it again.

I have no problem with Willow. Sure she makes some huge misstakes like most of the others in the show did one time or another.
If you would hate everyone that have messed up then you would hate all of them. I like them all for their good qualities instead. 🙂

/SK
 
Willow is my favourite character. At least of the main ones. But she's far from perfect. So I'm not gonna defend every bad thing she's done. I agree with most of them. She's done a lot of bad things and got away a bit easy with some of them. But I still want to say a few things.

Seems like quite a few get mad/annoyed at her for not being strong enough. That's all fair but you put it a bit funny. Willow was controlled by her emotions. Do you expect her to use her brain/logic when she's devestated? I bet none of us do. But if you want to dislkike her for not being as strong as Buffy that's your choice. Being smart doesn't mean that you're more mentally strong than others. From being shy and insecure she had people around her to make her confidence grow. And once she got the confidence she did what a lot of former insecure (and probably to a certain degree still is inside) people do she took it too far. Way too far. And with her knowledge in witchcraft it became disastrous. Did she get away with things too easily? Compare it with your close friends. It's easy to say that you treat everyone the same but take your best friend (Willow), a person that for some reason hang around you but that you never really liked (Faith) and the one bullying you (Spike) but once you get older one of your friends (Buffy) gets attracted to his bad boy attitide and finally date him even though you still don't like him. Would you treat them the exact same and give them the same chance? If you do I say kudos to you but I don't think many would (even if they think they do). It might not be the right thing to do but it's not hard to understand.

I'm not defending Willows actions or what her friends let her "get away" with. But to me they're at the very least understandable.

She got together with Kennedy too fast (as a kind of reward)? Considering how many people that hate Kennedy shouldn't we see it as a punishment for her to go from being with the wonderful Tara to the bratty, annoying Kennedy? 😉
 
Right up until Oz leaves Sunnydale Willow was one of my favourite characters. She was sweet and adorable. More than that she was humble and genuine. However, the very second Oz leaves so does that girl. Willow's reacted as if she was the only person ever to have their heart broken. She was wreckless and sought vengence. We would see that reaction amplified by 10,000 when Tara died.

I think Giles summed up Willow post Oz for me the best, "Rank, arrogant amatuer". I will NEVER forgive her for what she did to Buffy. If she actually stopped to think about what she was doing then maybe she would have a) sought out a spell that could confirm Buffy's whereabouts and B) looked back on the situation with Angel and remember that HE NEVER DIED! He was sucked into a Hell dimension! So to me her whole Angel excuse for bring Buffy back means jack squat. The sheer lack of consideration that went into the whole resurrection is best highlighted by them not thinking far enough ahead to dig Buffy out of her coffin. And she then has the gall to sulk when Buffy doesn't thank her for bringing her back? Seriously! Gah!

The fact that she appeared to live in Buffy's house and not contribute also astonishes me. Buffy had to work in the bloody Doublemeat Palace while Willow gets her mother's room!

When Tara died she tries to end the world! Once again she acts as if she is the only person to know that kind of pain. Considering Giles and Buffy were both intimately familiar with that type of grief I find myself even more disgusted by Willow's reaction. Moreso I feel like she should have done jail time the same way Faith had to face up to her crimes. Instead Willow gets sent to a retreat in England where Giles turns Zen Master on her!

She literally got away with murder but because it's Willow it doesn't matter.

Ok I'm going to go and defuse for a little while.

PREACH ON! These are the exact same problems I have with Willow.

Looking back to season 1, it tickles me how Willow, the most cutesy lovable snuggly character, turned out to be such a selfish tool. While somebody like Cordelia, the selfish superficial bitch queen, turned into one of the most selfless and noble characters in the entire verse. 8 years can really change a person.
 
Right up until Oz leaves Sunnydale Willow was one of my favourite characters. She was sweet and adorable. More than that she was humble and genuine. However, the very second Oz leaves so does that girl. Willow's reacted as if she was the only person ever to have their heart broken. She was wreckless and sought vengence. We would see that reaction amplified by 10,000 when Tara died.

Ok first Buffy mopes and whines constantly about losing her loves. She spent like what three or four episodes whining about Parker who she didnt even know but decided to sleep with. She ran away and moped for three months about killing angel. And then has better things to do when its willow who's depressed over losing Oz. To quote Buffy exactly "We're all tired of it" Yeah thats really nice to say about a friend who was there for you through your break ups.

I think Giles summed up Willow post Oz for me the best, "Rank, arrogant amatuer". I will NEVER forgive her for what she did to Buffy. If she actually stopped to think about what she was doing then maybe she would have a) sought out a spell that could confirm Buffy's whereabouts and B) looked back on the situation with Angel and remember that HE NEVER DIED! He was sucked into a Hell dimension! So to me her whole Angel excuse for bring Buffy back means jack squat. The sheer lack of consideration that went into the whole resurrection is best highlighted by them not thinking far enough ahead to dig Buffy out of her coffin. And she then has the gall to sulk when Buffy doesn't thank her for bringing her back? Seriously! Gah!

She was trying to bring her best friend back to life. Who she honestly thought was being tortured in hell. How was she supposed to know that she wasnt. And she may have orchestrated it all but Xander, Anya, and Tara all went along with it. She's devastated when she learned that Buffy was in heaven. She feels terrible, and knows that its her fault.

I agree willow was out of control with the magic in season 6 and Giles was right to call her that. But its just like any addiction willow couldn't see that she was hurting her friends, just like an alcoholic or a druggie.

I also agree they should have thought to dig buffy up. That was careless on their part.

When Tara died she tries to end the world! Once again she acts as if she is the only person to know that kind of pain. Considering Giles and Buffy were both intimately familiar with that type of grief I find myself even more disgusted by Willow's reaction. Moreso I feel like she should have done jail time the same way Faith had to face up to her crimes. Instead Willow gets sent to a retreat in England where Giles turns Zen Master on her!

The one person she loved more then life, who she'd finally won back, was murdered right before eyes. She went into a blind rage, brought on by extreme grief. Giles tried to do the same thing to Spike and Angel when Jenny was killed. The only difference is that Willow had the power to do it. Once she Killed Warren it was just like Faith getting pushed over the edge. She spiraled out of control until Xander saved her just like Angel did for Faith. Faith needed jail, no stupid watchers council or retreat was going to help her. She needed to feel as though she were repenting for what she did. Willow just needed to learn how to control her magic since it was now apart of her, learn to deal with what she did since no she can never take it back.

As for the season 7 thing. I entirely blame dawn for that, and the potentials. But I also get angry with Giles because he's supposed to be looking out for Buffy, standing up for her. I agree that Willow should have said something and not just kept quiet and that was wrong on her part. I could see getting upset with her for that. But Dawn was her sister, Buffy literally gave up her own life to save that annoying little brat and Dawn repays her by kicking her out.

I agree that people are way too hard on Spike. What he did, he did without a soul. People dont blame Angel for what he does as 'Angelus' but Spike gets blamed for what he does without a soul?? Spike realizes instantly what he was doing is wrong and he goes out and gets a soul. He knows he cant take back what he did and he doesn't try. He just tries to be a better man for Buffy.
 
Interesting thread, I had no idea people thought in this way regarding Willow!

I have never really thought to much about her being forgiven to easily for her actions. I think a lot of the people in the show were forgiven quite quickly over actions that were taken. I thought Xander was forgiven to easily for his actions in Bewitched, Bothered and Bewildered, not to mention that he summoned a demon to Sunnydale that killed at least one person, and almost caused Buffy's death. Of course I'm using Xander as an example because he's my least favourite main character, but nearly all of the scoobs have done things similar that were forgiven and forgotten about easily - Giles, Tara and Dawn off the top of my head. I always assumed the reason a lot of the wrong doings of the gang were not focussed on more intently was to keep the pace of the show fast. I know for one that I would not like to see entire episodes, or in some cases even extended scenes, on people trying to earn forgiveness.

A lot of the things that Willow did wrong I believe were focussed on the correct amount.

I do agree that Willow (and Tara and Dawn) should have offered to work some night shifts to help out Buffy when there was no money to afford the house. I have spoken at great length about this before, so I will give a brief summary - Yes, Willow, Tara and Dawn were at college/high school. I have a friend that was studying at university (full time, and doing a difficult course) that spent her Friday nights, Saturdays and Sundays working in retail so she could afford to live. Yes, the money was bad. Yes, the job was crap. I see no reason why between the 3 of them they couldn't have pulled some shifts in coffee shops, The Bronze or retail outlets. That is getting a bit off topic though, so I'll stop discussing.

Getting slightly off topic some more I think that yes, Willow was in the wrong in asking Buffy to leave her own house, but Dawn, Anya and Giles are no better for letting it happen.
 
You know, I find myself agreeing with all the anti-Willow statements, but I just cannot bring myself to get mad at Willow. I don't know what it is, she just doesn't bug me in the later seasons. I was annoyed with her at some points in S6, but it never lasted. I just didn't hate Willow, and I don't really know why. I'm sticking with my "Willow was punished" theory. It's very hard to hate a woman who's crying over the dead body of the love of her life.

I totally agree. Willow's my favorite character on the show and while she may not be very likable in S6-S7, IMO, none of the core four were.

One of the reasons I think people give Willow "a get out of jail free" card (not my words), is that she's apologetic. When Willow does something bad, she admits her mistake and apologizes. In S7, Willow returns racked with guilt (see Same Time, Same Place) and spends the season beating herself up about it and trying to make things right. And, just because the Scoobies accept her back, doesn't mean she was completely forgiven. Dawn and Buffy were angry and mistrustful, and post S6, Willow's not as close to Xander and Buffy as she was before.Their relationship's permanently damaged.

Yeah, Willow saying "I'm sorry" doesn't change the fact that she did bad things, but at least when she's been a bitca she feels guilty and will admit she's wrong, unlike Xander and Spike. And, she tries to atone for it.
 
K
Kelsey
Interesting points. She is pretty apologetic.
caitaintdead
caitaintdead
That is an interesting point. I didn't see Xander or Spike baking cookies for anyone like Willow has done!
Ok, this is obviously not a popular belief here, but...

I love Willow, all the way. I loved her in the beginning and I love her in the end. Maybe even more so in the end.

I have forgave her for her actions, just like I forgave everyone else. They ALL made a lot of stupid mistakes, and they ALL went through questionable times. But they were also all better for it. 🙂


Please, feel free to argue with me! I haven't gotten into a good debate in a while. 😀

i tried to give you karma but it wouldn't let me for some reason...anyways i agree with the post above..they all made mistakes for the most part and i forgave each one
 
Willow is my favourite character. At least of the main ones. But she's far from perfect. So I'm not gonna defend every bad thing she's done. I agree with most of them. She's done a lot of bad things and got away a bit easy with some of them. But I still want to say a few things.

Seems like quite a few get mad/annoyed at her for not being strong enough. That's all fair but you put it a bit funny. Willow was controlled by her emotions. Do you expect her to use her brain/logic when she's devestated? I bet none of us do. But if you want to dislkike her for not being as strong as Buffy that's your choice. Being smart doesn't mean that you're more mentally strong than others. From being shy and insecure she had people around her to make her confidence grow. And once she got the confidence she did what a lot of former insecure (and probably to a certain degree still is inside) people do she took it too far. Way too far. And with her knowledge in witchcraft it became disastrous. Did she get away with things too easily? Compare it with your close friends. It's easy to say that you treat everyone the same but take your best friend (Willow), a person that for some reason hang around you but that you never really liked (Faith) and the one bullying you (Spike) but once you get older one of your friends (Buffy) gets attracted to his bad boy attitide and finally date him even though you still don't like him. Would you treat them the exact same and give them the same chance? If you do I say kudos to you but I don't think many would (even if they think they do). It might not be the right thing to do but it's not hard to understand.

I'm not defending Willows actions or what her friends let her "get away" with. But to me they're at the very least understandable.


Word, word, word! And, I thought willow going bad for Tara was one of the most beautiful things in Btvs ever. 🙂
 
I'm right there with Kean. Willow was my favorite Scooby for the first three seasons (closely followed by Oz), and a good bit of the fourth. Season four after Oz leaves and season five are kind of forgettable for me (and I haven't seen them in years), so I can't really comment on what I thought of her then. However, there were so many things wrong with her behavior in season six. I could barely stand her the whole season (or the other characters, for that matter), and I do think that, after what she tried to do, she deserved more punishment. Faith willingly went to prison for murdering a couple of people, but the question of prison was never even raised for Willow, who did (or tried to do) much worse. Perhaps that has something to do with the police never going looking for her. *shrug* But despite not liking how little she was punished for what she did, I did like Willow herself much better in season seven. She had finally learned to be responsible and that magic doesn't entitle her to not follow the rules, and she was genuinely sorry for what she had done (rather than just being sorry for getting caught and blamed).
 
As far as Warren, I thought he was pretty much a scumbag and deserved to die. If Willow wanted vengeance against him for killing her girlfriend, so be it ...

Attempted murder of Jonathan and Andrew, who had nothing to do with her girlfriend's death: not forgivable. Even much less forgivable: attempted destruction of the entire world.

And some of the other 'lesser' offenses: raping Tara's mind, nearly killing Dawn in a car wreck, not paying rent to Buffy (that we could see on-screen anyway). It all adds up.

Yeah, if it were me I think she would have crossed a line a long time ago. Spending a summer with Wiccans in England healed her? Nonsense. The girl is a nut case and needed massive therapy. I would not have let her in my home or near my loved ones until she was cleared by a trained psychologist.
 
The sheer arrogance and irresponsibility that she displayed in S6 really annoyed me. I agree with what someone said already, I think resurrecting Buffy was just as much about her showboating her power as it was about bringing Buffy back. Why didn't she go to Giles with her concerns that Buffy was in a demon dimension? BECAUSE SHE KNEW IT WAS BULL. She really was your stereotypical addict in S6: selfish, destructive and irresponsible.

I mean I'm no Spike lover, but at least he had the excuse of being soulless. What was Willow's excuse for all the things she did? She lost control of her actions? That's the typical excuse of an addict with no strength of conviction. That cannot resist temptation. She could have controlled herself. She just didn't want to.
 
Taaroko
Taaroko
I couldn't agree more. Awesomely put.
I think the thing that always frustrated me as far as the Dark Willow storyline and accessing Willow's culpability, is the fact that there's a big double standard that exists between not holding her accountable for her actions and forgiving her a bit easier vs holding Spike, Faith, etc. accountable for their actions and not being so willing to forgive them quite as much or even a little bit of all.

Case in point:

Willow flays a man to death in the name of love. Now, said man was a horrible person who did horrible things and killed the woman that she loved and tried to kill Buffy. I get that, it's not lost on me at all. The thing is, it wasn't Willow's place to play executioner no matter how much she was grieving, no matter how addicted she was to the magic, no matter how much she wanted revenge. It wasn't her place to take it. And honestly, I feel like she didn't have to deal with the consequences, as she should have.

Thing is, she had a soul very much in tact, even if it was conveniently bathed in dark magicks, it was still there and she should be held just as culpable as anyone else would be.

Vs another case in point:

Spike does what he did in Seeing Red and a number of different evil no good bad nasty little things while completely soulless and he's still held very much accountable for what he did, quite hated by some, and definitely not very forgiven by other's. And the difference between him and Willow is one damn soul.

And I've seen some argue that it does matter and some say that it doesn't, well in any case...one murder was done with a soul and countless other murders were done without a soul. Either way, none of the murders should ever be okay.

I guess I always felt like because Willow had a soul when she actively and willingly killed Warren, went through the trouble of actually seeking him out so that she could carry out her plan of killing him, was worse because she had a soul. Buffyverse has taught that having a soul matters, that it's what determines the moral compass of someone or the thing that inhabits it.

Another thing, she is the one who decides to bring Buffy back from the dead with some wicked mojo, that she has to deceive her friends in a way to get them to go along with it and she purposefully waits until Giles is out of the country where he can't know a thing about it and she leaves Spike out of the loop. I believe that she did those knowing that a.) Spike would try and stop her or like he said, if there was anything of Buffy in that thing that came back all wrong he wouldn't let her kill her, and b.) knowing that Giles would definitely disapprove and would actually try and prevent her from going through with it.

In any case, this is completely selfish and on the other hand if I put myself in her shoes, I can also understand why she would so desperately want to bring her friend back. This is Buffy we're talking about, she's saved the world a lot, saved their asses more times than all of them combined can count, and she basically just kicks ass a lot. The world needs her, so who is Willow to deny that. Plus, Willow needs her too, she needs her best friend back because she loves her and she wants her there in her life. It's perfectly understandable, because nobody really knew where Buffy was when she sacrificed her life.

They were all under the impression that she was trapped in some hell dimension and Willow along with the rest of them could not live with this, so hence the spell. I don't know that I can honestly say the spell shouldn't have happened, because S6 is one of my favorite seasons. (Probably a minority here, on that one.) But, at the same time, I feel like Willow had definite culpability in the deceiving and I don't know that I like the fact that she basically u-surped Buffy's decision to carry out her sacrifice at the end of The Gift.

I think, I'm a bit more willing to forgive that, than I am to forgive her killing Warren.

Then if we delve a bit further into all of this, there's the spell in Tabula Rasa where she wipes their mind, and then again when she uses magick on Tara to make her forget the argument that they had.

I feel like I also need to say that I care about Willow, as a character. She was always one of my first immediate favorite's and she probably always will be. But, even I as a fan, can see that there were some discrepancies that have been over-looked or haven't appeared to be necessarily fair when we're talking in terms of whom we're holding accountable and for what atrocities they're also being held in contempt for.

In short, the double standard bugs me as a Willow and Spike fan, at heart. I love both of these character's and they've both made big mistakes, but I guess all I'm saying is if we're going to hold one responsible then why not the other as well?!
 
I dont think its fair to compare someone who was esentially an addict to someone who tried to rape someone. Apples to oranges.
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I honestly don't see a problem with the whole lack of grudge against Willow. I was really nervous in my first watch that the Scoobies weren't going to take Willow back the way they did. I thought her spending the summer in England with Giles learning about her power and spending time with the coven proved she was sorry. Also her whole you can't see me I can't see you thing proved it too. I just have a whole lot of sympathy for her.
 
That's not really fair, you can't absolve someone of their crimes just because you believe one crime is more serious than the other.
Im pretty sure I didnt mention absolving anyone or the seriousness of either action. I pointed out that I dont think they are comparable.
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Taake
Taake
[No message]
G
Gotham
Ah, fair enough. :)
I dont think its fair to compare someone who was esentially an addict to someone who tried to rape someone. Apples to oranges.
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I wasn't actually comparing them, so much as I was pointing out that they've both done equally horrible things and they both should be held accountable for those things.

So, then it's okay for Willow with a soul and addicted to the magicks, to kill Warren in the name of love, hunt down Andrew and Jonathan and try to kill them, bring Buffy back from the dead at the beginning of the season (which I'm more inclined to understand than any of the other things), rapeTara's mind with magicks after knowing exactly what she went through as far as Glory goes is okay - but - it's not okay to point out that what she did with a soul was just as wrong as what Spike did without a soul and both should be held accountable for their actions?

Okay, I are confused.
 
Honestly, I don't really get the whole grudge on Willow either. She's one of my favorite Buffyverse characters and she does make mistakes that I don't really like, but they are not big ones that make me stop liking her. Some people have said that they like Willow up until Oz leaves in season 4, it's actually almost the opposite for me because I actually started liking her more and more after that because I thought she got more interesting as a character. But that's just my opinion, and I respect others opinions too, even if they disagree with me.
 
Honestly, I don't really get the whole grudge on Willow either. She's one of my favorite Buffyverse characters and she does make mistakes that I don't really like, but they are not big ones that make me stop liking her. Some people have said that they like Willow up until Oz leaves in season 4, it's actually almost the opposite for me because I actually started liking her more and more after that because I thought she got more interesting as a character. But that's just my opinion, and I respect others opinions too, even if they disagree with me.

Oh, I don't dislike Willow and I don't hold any grudges against her, for me it's about the not holding her responsible for the horrible things that she's done while holding other character's responsible for the things they've done. I hate double standards. I've said in my post above, that I love this character and all I'm trying to do is be real about her.
 
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