The Whole Lack of Grudge Against Willow....

[WakingNightmare]

I am really in the minority here...

Willow did some stupid things in S6. Really stupid. I'm not going to try and justify them. The only one I can defend (and that's only partly) is raising Buffy which was an act of desperation. I think she really did believe that Buffy was suffering. The reason she didn't tell Giles was because he would've said no.

That, and you've got to think outside the show. It's really annoying but sometimes necessary. BTVS has been renewed for another season except the star of the show is dead, she needs to be brought back and Willow has the most power, thus Willow is the one to do it, even if it is slightly OOC. Which, I think the whole storyline kinda is. Willow's never been comfortable with power. In "Becoming" she was freaked out about being Buffy's last chance and in "The Gift" she was afraid of being their only hope. If anyone was comfortable in positions of power, it's Xander. He was thrilled about being key guy in "Graduation Day" but you know-, not the point.

The other things she did, mind raping Tara, breaking Dawn's arm, flaying Warren, well at the end of the day I forgive her. The only excuse I have is that the magicks clouded her judgment. Everybody in Buffy has done something stupid at one point and I forgave them as long as they did something to make me forgive them, so I don't see any reason why I shouldn't with Willow. Mayfever said in a previous thread that we, as fans, forgive these characters for the things that we'd never forgive for in real life. If said character makes up for the things they did, then I'll forgive. In S7 she was terrified of doing magic in case she hurt her friends again. Giles said she was better and if he says it that's good enough for me.

Go ahead. Eat me alive.

 

[BuffangelLovE]

Willow did some stupid things in S6. Really stupid. I'm not going to try and justify them. The only one I can defend (and that's only partly) is raising Buffy which was an act of desperation. I think she really did believe that Buffy was suffering. The reason she didn't tell Giles was because he would've said no.

Why would he? If there was a chance, a clue, that Buffy (well, her soul or mind, cuz her body was buried) might be caught in some kind of hell dimension, why would Giles (of all people) not help Willow to do whatever was required to save Buffy? Like somebody already stated: Willow didn't involve Giles because she knew the whole idea was bull.
Because for him, it was clear, that Buffy was simply dead. I don't think there is any force other than the afterlife (or the body) that could keep someone's soul. So Buffys body must have been gone to make ANYONE truly believe she was in a hell dimension. Shortly said, you must be corporeal to be present on earth or anywhere else. Angel was corporeal when he was sent to the hell dimension. So the comparison with him draws not for a comparison with Buffy's death. I believe that Willow was well aware of everything but still wanted Buffy back for selfish reasons, no matter the consequences. Not just Willow is to blame on this, of course. Tara, Xander and Anya followed Willow's plan. It was evident that they let her manipulate them. They all had their 'moments of doubt', but we've seen how convincing Willow can be. She knew exactly which buttons to push to silence them.

Still I'm one of those who can't bring themselves to hate her. I forgive her like I do almost everyone else on the show, even Spike for the SR. I don't forget their bad sides. Sometimes I ask myself why the hell I don't hate them for this or that. I just can't. As long as they do something that makes me like them again, I don't care much for the bad things they did.

 

[WakingNightmare]

Why would he? If there was a chance, a clue, that Buffy (well, her soul or mind, cuz her body was buried) might be caught in some kind of hell dimension, why would Giles (of all people) not help Willow to do whatever was required to save Buffy? Like somebody already stated: Willow didn't involve Giles because she knew the whole idea was bull.

Over the summer it's not unlikely that the idea of Buffy suffering in hell crossed Giles' mind. Even if he thought or believed this he'd never help and he'd go to any lengths to stop Willow from doing it because he knows that raising the dead is a stupid stupid thing to do. Willow knows that Giles sees it this way but to her, that's just him not understanding perspective. I think Willow genuinely did believe Buffy was suffering.

 

[BuffangelLovE]

He'd never help her to resurrect her. But if he had proof or a hint, Buffy could be trapped elsewhere than Heaven, then he'd definately help Willow. I do think, that thought has crossed his mind, but he would of followed that thought, if there was a real cause to this. But there wasn't - Buffy was gone, dead for good. That's the point. And because Willow knew she needed a resurrection spell to bring Buffy back, which means, she was trying to bring someone back from dead and NOT another dimension, she wouldn't tell Giles... Because he would never allow this. That's how I meant it.

 

[WakingNightmare]

He'd never help her to resurrect her. But if he had proof or a hint, Buffy could be trapped elsewhere than Heaven, then he'd definately help Willow. I do think, that thought has crossed his mind, but he would of followed that thought, if there was a real cause to this. But there wasn't - Buffy was gone, dead for good. That's the point. And because Willow knew she needed a resurrection spell to bring Buffy back, which means, she was trying to bring someone back from dead and NOT another dimension, she wouldn't tell Giles... Because he would never allow this. That's how I meant it.

Giles would never help because it's a stupid thing to do. Even if he thought Buffy was suffering he'd never try something like that. He's too smart.

It wasn't a separate dimension Willow was talking about it was the real hell. If there was heaven for Buffy to go to, doesn't that make it plausible that hell is around somewhere too? Not another dimension the real hell. Buffy could have been there.

 

[BuffangelLovE]

Giles would never help because it's a stupid thing to do. Even if he thought Buffy was suffering he'd never try something like that. He's too smart.

It wasn't a separate dimension Willow was talking about it was the real hell. If there was heaven for Buffy to go to, doesn't that make it plausible that hell is around somewhere too? Not another dimension the real hell. Buffy could have been there.

um... I have to disagree. It was always implied that Willow thought, Buffy could have been sucked into one of the hell dimensions as she fell through the portal. But this could be a translation error from english to german, idk.

If it was a real hell. Why the heck would Buffy end up there then? What did she do to deserve that?

But whether she was in [the] hell or heaven, she died. Period. A couple of episodes prior to that, when Joyce died, Willow and Tara were the ones to tell Dawn it was too dangerous and forbidden to mess up with death. Still they resurrected Buffy.

 

[WakingNightmare]

um... I have to disagree. It was always implied that Willow thought, Buffy could have been sucked into one of the hell dimensions as she fell through the portal. But this could be a translation error from english to german, idk.

If it was a real hell. Why the heck would Buffy end up there then? What did she do to deserve that?

But whether she was in [the] hell or heaven, she died. Period. A couple of episodes prior to that, when Joyce died, Willow and Tara were the ones to tell Dawn it was too dangerous and forbidden to mess up with death. Still they resurrected Buffy.

I'll need to re-watch "Bargaining" as I recall Willow thinking that Buffy's soul and essence got trapped inside of hell but I watched S6 in a very jumbled up order so...

The reason Willow resurrected Buffy was because of reasons outside of the show. Willow had more power (power that she had never been comfortable with prior to S6) so Joss and writers decide that Willow brings her back not matter how OOC for Willow to relish in her power. In S6 she thoroughly enjoyed it but before that it was something she was uncomfortable with. It's a pain to think outside of the show but sometimes you just gotta.

Buffy did nothing do deserve to go to hell, but who decides these things? Who goes to hell and who goes to heaven? If Buffy did fall into hell when she died I doubt the PTB would have cared.

 

[The Unspoken]

I'll need to re-watch "Bargaining" as I recall Willow thinking that Buffy's soul and essence got trapped inside of hell but I watched S6 in a very jumbled up order so...

The reason Willow resurrected Buffy was because of reasons outside of the show. Willow had more power (power that she had never been comfortable with prior to S6) so Joss and writers decide that Willow brings her back not matter how OOC for Willow to relish in her power. In S6 she thoroughly enjoyed it but before that it was something she was uncomfortable with. It's a pain to think outside of the show but sometimes you just gotta.

Buffy did nothing do deserve to go to hell, but who decides these things? Who goes to hell and who goes to heaven? If Buffy did fall into hell when she died I doubt the PTB would have cared.

I imagine their assumption that Buffy was in (a) hell (dimension) came from the fact that Buffy died by quite literally jumping into a portal that led to a hell dimension.

um... I have to disagree. It was always implied that Willow thought, Buffy could have been sucked into one of the hell dimensions as she fell through the portal. But this could be a translation error from english to german, idk.

If it was a real hell. Why the heck would Buffy end up there then? What did she do to deserve that?

But whether she was in [the] hell or heaven, she died. Period. A couple of episodes prior to that, when Joyce died, Willow and Tara were the ones to tell Dawn it was too dangerous and forbidden to mess up with death. Still they resurrected Buffy.

Joyce died a natural death; it's heavily implied that she can't be brought back 'wholly', in the manner that Buffy was brought back. As for their resurrection of Buffy, it was largely selfish in nature. We also have to realize that the characters might not look at Buffy's sacrifice in 'The Gift' in the same way we do.

 

[Harley]

I wasn't actually comparing them, so much as I was pointing out that they've both done equally horrible things and they both should be held accountable for those things.

I wasn't actually speaking to you specifically...just drawing attention to the thread idea itself.

So, then it's okay for Willow with a soul and addicted to the magicks, to kill Warren in the name of love, hunt down Andrew and Jonathan and try to kill them, bring Buffy back from the dead at the beginning of the season (which I'm more inclined to understand than any of the other things), rapeTara's mind with magicks after knowing exactly what she went through as far as Glory goes is okay - but - it's not okay to point out that what she did with a soul was just as wrong as what Spike did without a soul and both should be held accountable for their actions?

Okay, I are confused.

I guess I'll say the same thing I said with Gotham:

Im pretty sure I didnt mention absolving anyone or the seriousness of either action. I pointed out that I dont think they are comparable.

At no point did I say what either of them did was okay. Addiction is not justification but you can't lump them into the same group and treat them the same. They have to be looked at as two completely different, completely separate situations.

 

[Goby]

Right up until Oz leaves Sunnydale Willow was one of my favourite characters. She was sweet and adorable. More than that she was humble and genuine. However, the very second Oz leaves so does that girl. Willow's reacted as if she was the only person ever to have their heart broken. She was wreckless and sought vengence. We would see that reaction amplified by 10,000 when Tara died.

I think Giles summed up Willow post Oz for me the best, "Rank, arrogant amatuer". I will NEVER forgive her for what she did to Buffy. If she actually stopped to think about what she was doing then maybe she would have a) sought out a spell that could confirm Buffy's whereabouts and B) looked back on the situation with Angel and remember that HE NEVER DIED! He was sucked into a Hell dimension! So to me her whole Angel excuse for bring Buffy back means jack squat. The sheer lack of consideration that went into the whole resurrection is best highlighted by them not thinking far enough ahead to dig Buffy out of her coffin. And she then has the gall to sulk when Buffy doesn't thank her for bringing her back? Seriously! Gah!

The fact that she appeared to live in Buffy's house and not contribute also astonishes me. Buffy had to work in the bloody Doublemeat Palace while Willow gets her mother's room!

When Tara died she tries to end the world! Once again she acts as if she is the only person to know that kind of pain. Considering Giles and Buffy were both intimately familiar with that type of grief I find myself even more disgusted by Willow's reaction. Moreso I feel like she should have done jail time the same way Faith had to face up to her crimes. Instead Willow gets sent to a retreat in England where Giles turns Zen Master on her!

She literally got away with murder but because it's Willow it doesn't matter.

Ok I'm going to go and defuse for a little while.

I will not allow reasoning and logic to affect my love for the brilliant, sweet, witty, and cute as a button Willow. How dare you!!! If there was any BtVS character I'd love to have a picnic in the park with, it's Willow.

I read your post, and it made a lot of sense, so I stopped reading it. Especially the part about her being a freeloader!! LOL!!!!!

 

[soulunsung]

I wasn't actually speaking to you specifically...just drawing attention to the thread idea itself.

I guess I'll say the same thing I said with Gotham:

Im pretty sure I didnt mention absolving anyone or the seriousness of either action. I pointed out that I dont think they are comparable.

At no point did I say what either of them did was okay. Addiction is not justification but you can't lump them into the same group and treat them the same. They have to be looked at as two completely different, completely separate situations.

You quoted what I said, so naturally it made me think that you were speaking to me. I don't think it's that far off for me to feel that way. So, I just addressed what you had said, with my opinion and clarification.

I'm pretty sure that I didn't mention you absolving anyone either. And here's another step forward, I wasn't lumping both Spike and Willow into the same group. I'm just simply saying (and I'll stand by this no matter what) that what the both of them did was wrong and if we're going to hold one responsible for their actions, then we'd better hold the other one (Willow) accountable for her actions as well.

I still maintain that it is a double standard in fandom and whether or not it's apples and oranges doesn't really matter to me. They both murdered people, Spike a lot more than Willow obviously, but at the end of the day they were BOTH wrong for what they did and they BOTH need to be held accountable.

That is all I'm saying.