Thread for BB feminists.

[This Year's Girl]

This is a thread for BB feminists. Here we can discuss feminist topics in Btvs/Angel, share interesting feminist articles or just give each other feminist peptalk. Yay! :heart:

Note: This is NOT a thread for debating feminism as a ideology or state that you're not a feminist and give reasons why. If you want to do so I suggest you make a thread of your own. 🙂 If you write here you have allready decided that you are a feminist and want to talk to people who share your views. Thank you for respecting this.

 

[Chosen Enemy]

I'm so glad you opened this thread!

I'm sure others will have more to say and I'll join in, but I just must say that Joss is just amazing to me, that he - a man, has written a very feminist show, of girl power, a girl who can take men. How many men do that?

 

[This Year's Girl]

Yay! Hello first BB feminist who writes in this thread! 😀 This has probably been posted a million times, but it deserves to be posted again. Here's Joss equality now speach:

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cYaczoJMRhs"]‪Joss Whedon's Equality Now speech‬‏ - YouTube[/ame]

 

[prophecygrrl]

I like this thread. :heart:

I'll probably post later when I think of something to say 😀, but I just wanted to let you know that I like this thread a lot!

 

[kittenpoker]

I like this thread too.

🙂

 

[BuffyElevated]

I'm not an uberfeminist, but I do believe in female empowerment and encouraging women to be confident in themselves and their right to have opinions, etc. Girl Power! LOL

 

[Misty]

I like this thread 🙂. I really do like shows, movies, and books with strong heroines as the main characters, because I can relate to them more since I'm a women.

Also, I'm Anglican Protestant, and one of the main things that I like about the religion is that women are allowed to be priests and deacons. And I'm glad that they have just as many rights as the men in it.

 

[Kody]

So glad you started this thread! I'm a pretty devoted feminist, and I love discussing feminist themes in the media.

Fun story. Up until last year, I attended Ithaca College. I took a course called Advanced Studies in Feminist Science Fiction and Fantasy. the course's nickname was "The Buffy Class." Essentially, my professor wanted to find a means by which to teach Buffy, and that was the course she developed. It was absolutely amazing.

We ended up creating and hosting a conference. I think it's going to become annual, so keep an eye out for it. The conference is called From Pippi to Ripley. Its all about feminist sci-fi and fantasy. People from all over - professors, students, average Joes - presented on feminism in film, literature, TV, comics, videogames - the list goes on.

I actually hosted an entire panel on Buffy. It was absolutely brilliant! Whenever the info on this years conference (I think it'll be in Tennessee this year while the professor who normally runs it is on sabbatical, then back to Ithaca, NY in years to come) shows up, I'll post here for those interested.

 

[Mithol]

Hi there, this thread looks interesting. I can't really think of anything to say right now... Except, I am a feminist and I love Buffy!

 

[VisionGirl]

I love this topic, thanks @This Year's Girl!

In talking about feminism in Joss' works, we also have to bring Feminist critique of his works to light as well. I don't think there's a perfect feminism in popular culture, this article gave me a lot of food for thought (especially considering the fact that I'm one of those "mature women"): http://slayageonline.com/essays/slayage29/St_Louis_Riggs.htm. Thoughts?

---------- Post added at 10:09 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:55 PM ----------

Has anybody read this yet? [ame="http://www.amazon.com/Whedonistas-Celebration-Worlds-Whedon-Women/dp/1935234102"]Amazon.com: Whedonistas: A Celebration of the Worlds of Joss Whedon by the Women Who Love Them (9781935234104): Lynne M. Thomas, Deborah Stanish: Books@@AMEPARAM@@http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51IZF4j5QmL.@@AMEPARAM@@51IZF4j5QmL[/ame]

 

[This Year's Girl]

Really interesting article, [MENTION=10354]VisionGirl[/MENTION]! Thank you for sharing! I think it's healthy to see that even though btvs is an feminist inspiration in so many ways there's room for improvement, like there often is in popular culture. I think the writer bring up some good points about the show being a middleclass white feminist show. I think the show do touch on the class perspective, but it never is examined which is a shame. Buffy and Dawn struggled a lot and it would've been interesting if that could've been explored.

I also think the subject of women's bodies the article brings up is really interesting, I have some major issues with the way cordelias's body were treated in ats. Feminist frequency (run by Anita sarkeesian at bitch magazine) just posted an amazing vid om youtube about "the mystical pregnancy". I'm om My phone right now and can't link, but I recommend you all to youtube feminist frequency mystical pregnancy! And then come here and tell me what you thought! 🙂 all of her vids are AMAZING, she's like my idol. She often talks about btvs too 🙂

---------- Post added at 09:09 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:04 AM ----------

Also, YAY for there being so many feminists on here! Makes me happy. :heart: Your seminar/course om buffy sounds so cool and interesting [MENTION=11473]Kody[/MENTION]! Keep us updated on next years!

 

[VisionGirl]

How very bizarre, TYG! I just came across this on Facebook: http://www.theunnecesarean.com/blog...ure-alien-babies-and-torture-pregnancies.html

---------- Post added at 09:08 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:53 AM ----------

And here's the other video, the one you were talking about: http://laurashapiro.dreamwidth.org/306241.html

---------- Post added at 09:14 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:08 AM ----------

While we're on the topic, I also recently watch the movie this trailer is based on, I can't recall if it had any Whedon scenes in it, but it did have other sci-fi/fantasy shows/movies: [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V9Gd7pqeESE"]‪Laboring Under An Illusion: TV / Real Birth‬‏ - YouTube[/ame]

 

[prophecygrrl]

[MENTION=10354]VisionGirl[/MENTION] I want to see that documentary now! Was it good?

And to anyone else who hasn't seen Anita Sarkeesian's videos, I also highly recommend Feminist Frequency. 🙂

 

[Goby]

I find it interesting that Joss picked such a smoking hot actress for Buffy, and he replaced the "plain" Willow with smokin' hot Aly. How many women in real life look like either of them?

OTOH, TV is still big business. Perhaps men (and women) were drawn to SMG and Aly's great looks. I've said it before that I "forget" how smokin' hot SMG is by Season 2 and have fallen helplessly in love with her wit, brains, loyalty, dedication, and bravery. She could look like Jabba the Hut and I'd still love Buffy.

Regarding Cordy... I was SHOCKED when she did her bikini commercial in ATS. Then she starts showing her breasts more often. She's stunning, but I still didn't like it.

The women in the Whedonverse are generally strong. But they are also incredibly beautiful. I'm wondering if that takes away from the feminist message?

 

[caritas08]

I find it interesting that Joss picked such a smoking hot actress for Buffy, and he replaced the "plain" Willow with smokin' hot Aly. How many women in real life look like either of them?

OTOH, TV is still big business. Perhaps men (and women) were drawn to SMG and Aly's great looks. I've said it before that I "forget" how smokin' hot SMG is by Season 2 and have fallen helplessly in love with her wit, brains, loyalty, dedication, and bravery. She could look like Jabba the Hut and I'd still love Buffy.

Regarding Cordy... I was SHOCKED when she did her bikini commercial in ATS. Then she starts showing her breasts more often. She's stunning, but I still didn't like it.

The women in the Whedonverse are generally strong. But they are also incredibly beautiful. I'm wondering if that takes away from the feminist message?

Yes. I love Joss but he's far from perfect and I feel he neglected to include different races and body types in his casting. I don't want to be too hard on him though because he originally had Bianca Lawson to play Cordelia (she bailed for Sister,Sister) and Reff Regan to play Willow so I think (at least in the casting for Buffy, Willow, Cordy) it really was just a case of who was the better actress. It did make me sad that so many people were unkind to Amber Benson about her "weight" and that she had to defend herself over it when she first came on the show.

 

[VisionGirl]

Goby said: The women in the Whedonverse are generally strong. But they are also incredibly beautiful. I'm wondering if that takes away from the feminist message?

I don't think it necessarily has to or does take away the feminist message, but the lack of diversity as [MENTION=8214]caritas08[/MENTION] mentioned (body type, ethnicity etc) is problematic. There's nothing wrong with beauty, but when beauty IS the substance, that's not feminism. (Of course Whedon's men are not bad-looking either.) Personally I do like how even though SMG/Buffy is beautiful, she's not always dressed to showcase that beauty. I'm not saying that she doesn't sometimes dress in ways that are attractive/beautiful/sexy, but it's not constant. There are plenty of times that her clothing is humdrum, functional, not sexy. The point is to play up her brains, physical strength, and wit. Whedon purposely sets out to turn over the "beautiful but airheaded blonde" image. To do so, he really does have to make her beautiful- and then surprise us with all of her other attributes. I think what I most appreciate (despite his shortcomings) is the depth and layer of his characters. In a lot of TV/movies (especially sci-fi/fantasy and action flicks), women are relegated to sidekick roles with little substance. Not so with Whedon.

 

[Kody]

Oh man, I wish you all could have taken that course with me. We discussed this (the appearance of Whedon girls) in great detail. No conclusion was ever fully reached, though. Everyone disagrees as to whether or not their extreme beauty takes away from the feminist message.

I personally don't think it does. Mostly because TV is TV, and EVERYONE is beautiful on TV. Its just a sad fact of life.

 

[caritas08]

Oh man, I wish you all could have taken that course with me. We discussed this (the appearance of Whedon girls) in great detail. No conclusion was ever fully reached, though. Everyone disagrees as to whether or not their extreme beauty takes away from the feminist message.

I personally don't think it does. Mostly because TV is TV, and EVERYONE is beautiful on TV. Its just a sad fact of life.

True. Plus to quote Amanda from Ugly Betty "pretty girls have problems too". 😛 LOL. In all seriousness, it really doesn't take away from the message at all because different personalities are shown and I think that's something that occasionally gets neglected when portraying strong female characters.

Some movies, books, etc portray only kicka##, fighter, sexual, Lara Croft type women (subtly suggesting that more quiet, reserved Jane Austin, Emily Bronte , Tara Maclay type characters are boring or not equally strong.

Or you have movies which only have female characters that are delegated to the girlfriend, sidekick, (and, although they might be pleasant and likable, usually contribute nothing to solve the problem either intellectually or physically). Two movies I watched last weekend "Limitless" and "the Source Code" kind of suffered from this.

The thing I like about Joss' shows is he portrays different types of women, yet they are all equally strong. You can't necessarily argue that someone like Fred or Tara is a weaker person than Buffy or Faith just because they can't take them in a physical fight. Different kinds of women will be able to relate to different types of characters. That's why I'm very reluctant to find a set standard for what young girls should look up to. We need choices. Many of us would consider Buffy a role model, while many others would prefer Willow or Cordelia. And, while, those personality differences cause many of these women to clash (i.e. Willow and Cordelia) they are willing and able to set aside their differences to work towards a common goal (something else is often hinted that women are incapable of doing).

 

[Tome]

I find it interesting that Joss picked such a smoking hot actress for Buffy, and he replaced the "plain" Willow with smokin' hot Aly. How many women in real life look like either of them?

OTOH, TV is still big business. Perhaps men (and women) were drawn to SMG and Aly's great looks. I've said it before that I "forget" how smokin' hot SMG is by Season 2 and have fallen helplessly in love with her wit, brains, loyalty, dedication, and bravery. She could look like Jabba the Hut and I'd still love Buffy.

Regarding Cordy... I was SHOCKED when she did her bikini commercial in ATS. Then she starts showing her breasts more often. She's stunning, but I still didn't like it.

The women in the Whedonverse are generally strong. But they are also incredibly beautiful. I'm wondering if that takes away from the feminist message?

Smokin' hot is pushing it. 😛 And yea, it's not just the women who are good looking in BtVS(or most tv shows for that matter), that's just how tv business goes. As for Cordy, I always thought that they wanted to show how lots of women are used only for their body in commercials(and have her also realize that). But what's funny is how later on in the season, they have her wear this very revealing chainmail top 😉 And then she's telling Groo about that commercial session and realize midway she's actually not wearing much more, bahaha! The writers obviously wanted us to realize the irony of it. 😛

Oh and, the actresses' beauty taking away from the feminist message? I don't think so... Why would their appearance matter? As long as it's not the sole reason they're part of the show. All the female characters in BtVS and Angel were more than just pretty faces. Same for the guys.

As for the topic at hand... I don't know if I'm a feminist, but if it means rooting for the equality between the sexes, then yes I am. Just like I support equality in everything.

Miki! Always nice to read what you have to say about this. Even though I don't comment all the time, know that I read. 🙂

 

[Tome]

Goby agrees: Willow isn't "smokin' hot?" Next time you're in chat with me you're going to wish you weren't in chat with me!!!! ARGH!!!!

Bring it on, foolish PR! 😉