Thread for Questions Regarding the Time Out

You're the one who said they can leave! You said it, not me!
Yes. The same way that being here is a privilege and not a right, no one is forcing anyone to be here. Anyone is welcome to leave at any time if they don't like it here. And if people don't like that we aren't going to let them be nasty to other members on the board, then, yes, they can leave.
 
So then it again becomes a legit question: how is "giving the attackers some time to think about their actions" NOT a punishment?

Because if I wanted to punish somebody, the ban would be permanent. Also, as I said, all of us are guilty of being attackers. The ones on the board had 3 days to think about their actions as well.


And WHAT SPECIFICALLY qualified any given individual as an "attacker?"

You see, we didn't identify who was right and who was wrong in any case. The qualification was only "Who could benefit by a break?" "Who has been taking the board too seriously?" The events of the last three days have shown that I was right about that lol.

---------- Post added at 12:08 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:05 AM ----------

ok, so why not separate the two for those who were given this "time out"? Let them know if they were considered an attacker or the victim.

Because the point, as I said, was try to get everyone to see that we ALL are to blame. And we all are. All the bickering and fighting on this board - it's not down to one or two people that we could punish and be done with it. We tried that and no one listened. The point was to show how bad it is when we are divided. It was not to punish certain people, but to get EVERYONE thinking.
 
Because the point, as I said, was try to get everyone to see that we ALL are to blame. And we all are. All the bickering and fighting on this board - it's not down to one or two people that we could punish and be done with it. We tried that and no one listened. The point was to show how bad it is when we are divided. It was not to punish certain people, but to get EVERYONE thinking.

But if we are all to blame, the whole board should have been shut down. it's not right for some to get to stay and some to be forced outta here if we're all to blame.
 
Okay, here are my questions. All quotes directly from the timeout explanation post thing.

I'm sorry if this violates the "no snide" expectation. I'm trying to be evenhanded here, really truly.

- kindness and respect towards your fellow members

Like banning them (randomly or not -- there seems to be some question about this in some contradictory statements)? And then providing only the most perfunctory explanation as to why, while dealing in generalizations and giving no specific example of anything ANY member (banned or not) has done to offend?

- not going along with bullying and other bad behavior by others on the board and standing up for the rights of your fellow members

I'm sorry, but it's bullying and bad behavior to ban other members without warning when they haven't done something wrong. I'm going to stand up for the rights of my fellow members and protest that action and request an apology from the administration.

I'm sorry, but it's bullying to stifle any dissent to your actions. I realize it's tough dealing with the crazies on a daily basis, and I realize it's possible to get burned by permitting too much lip from unruly folks, but when people just want to understand and work things out like rational adults -- without personal attacks or anything -- it's completely out of line to delete them in the name of "positivity." It was simply unrealistic to expect a totally positive reaction to a capricous act like an arbitrary ban of thirty members. You don't enforce good feelings by stifling dissent -- you enforce good feelings by encouraging healthy discussion so people feel respected and heard rather than tyrannized.

3. To set an example by our actions for others

I'm assuming you want to set a GOOD example, right? So how would you feel if your position were reversed with the members who were banned and are being silenced? How would you feel if you were kicked out for no clearly articulated reason, and when you tried to get answers, you were simply told to shut up?

What kind of example does the administration's conduct set here? How can the administration say with a straight face that it's keeping its pledge, even from the first minute?

7. To be clearer about where the line is drawn between acceptable and not acceptable.

Why was this line (apparently) not drawn before the administration felt compelled to "randomly" ban over two dozen members?

And is constructive disagreement with the administration now no longer acceptable?

4. To keep our personal feelings out of our moderating decisions and to keep a level head.

Seriously? Random three-day ban of thirty members is levelheaded? Can the administration name ONE other forum wherein anything remotely like this happened and had it ultimately turn out for the forum's best interest? As an experienced forumer in a lot of other places (and occasional admin myself), this one has me flabbergasted. I'd honestly like to know in what universe the administration thought this was a good idea.

5. To take time out when over-stressed so as to not take it out on members and better handle situations.

I would -- as respectfully as possible -- like to suggest that the administration needs to take a time out itself. Whether the administration intends it or not, its recent actions VERY MUCH feel to us members as if the situations are being badly handled and members are being tyrannized on the administration's personal whims.
 
Y
yellowcrayon
Brilliantly worded.
M
Mesektet Ra
Your wife said I can borrow you! This is also another way for me to say GO YOU YOU'RE AWESOME.
Sweetescape
Sweetescape
[No message]
I have been banned.

The small paragraph I saw shocked me. I didn't understand why. Now, I didn't think "Why me and not this person" I'm not like that. Or at least I try not to be. I thought "Why me AND all these, wonderful, friendly people?" It made no sense. Now I wonder - What was banning people, giving them a "time out" suppose to do for the board, besides deserting it?

A time out is a punishment. My school uses it as punishment. We were told that we needed a "time out" to get "perspective" but we weren't told what, so I am sitting here, wondering, to get perspective on what? What am I supposed to be thinking about? Being forcibly removed from somewhere sounds like a punishment to me.

What upsets me the most though, is that members are leaving. They're sick of the drama and they're leaving. Fair enough. I still haven't decided whether to stay or not.

So why? Why only those members? What did they do? Are we really that cliquey? Are we bullies? Why has it been 15 minutes and we're still banned?

Why?
 
Y
yellowcrayon
My first question was why f-ck not me?
But if we are all to blame, the whole board should have been shut down. it's not right for some to get to stay and some to be forced outta here if we're all to blame.
That was one idea. But the fact of the matter is, closing the whole board is just downtime. No one would have batted an eye except maybe to post something on AD saying "I miss BB!"

No one would have thought about anything. And the board was in bad shape. We need to make a change. And just telling people to be nice to each other wasn't working anymore. Faith tried that just last week - no one gave it a second thought. Even now, we continue to lay the blame with everyone but ourselves.
 
That was one idea. But the fact of the matter is, closing the whole board is just downtime. No one would have batted an eye except maybe to post something on AD saying "I miss BB!"

No one would have thought about anything. And the board was in bad shape. We need to make a change. And just telling people to be nice to each other wasn't working anymore. Faith tried that just last week - no one gave it a second thought. Even now, we continue to lay the blame with everyone but ourselves.

i'm not laying blame; this stuff didn't affect me except i had to wonder why my wife was banned from a site that she begged me to come join. i joined and a few days later she was banned, and i couldn't for the life of me find out why. she was upset, and i was trying to get answers for her.
 
I guess what I am having an issue understanding is what type of arguing is wrong? I have had several disagreements in my short time on this board and one of them had several people who who where arguing against me. None of those people where doing it in away where I took any personal offense to what they where saying. We just simply disagreed about the topic at hand. I haven't felt bullied in anyway by ANYONE on this board. I'm NOT saying these gang ups, bullies and other things don't happen I am certain they do. I just feel like we need a good definition of what exactly it is you can and can not do while arguing. If that makes sense.

Please don't get me wrong here I'm not trying to say that what you did was wrong. I just feel like I don't completely understand.
 
R
Revolver
You have been a member here for a very short time. And nothing you have said was offensive at all. Even as a newbie you understand that debate will be had, as well as disagrement. Thank you for being so respectful for everyone involved, unlike mods.
B
BillyidolwannaB
:) its all good, i actually get what buffys tryin ta say. Peeps are takin this too far imo
I'm sorry, but it's bullying to stifle any dissent to your actions. I realize it's tough dealing with the crazies on a daily basis, and I realize it's possible to get burned by permitting too much lip from unruly folks, but when people just want to understand and work things out like rational adults -- without personal attacks or anything -- it's completely out of line to delete them in the name of "positivity." It was simply unrealistic to expect a totally positive reaction to a capricous act like an arbitrary ban of thirty members. You don't enforce good feelings by stifling dissent -- you enforce good feelings by encouraging healthy discussion so people feel respected and heard rather than tyrannized.

Fair point. Which is why I moved the posts back here from the cemetery (I never actually deleted any). But in my own defense, I have for, what, more than 7 years now, never asked people to not post their dissent. You can search the archive if you like. But this is important, and people arguing for arguing's sake solves nothing. I'm happy to answer questions. But not with people who don't want to hear the answers.



I'm assuming you want to set a GOOD example, right? So how would you feel if your position were reversed with the members who were banned and are being silenced? How would you feel if you were kicked out for no clearly articulated reason, and when you tried to get answers, you were simply told to shut up?

Well, I would have actually taken the time off, and not sat in front of a computer all weekend getting angry. *thinking* When I came back I probably would have asked if I really did anything wrong. And if the answer was no, then I would have moved on.

What kind of example does the administration's conduct set here? How can the administration say with a straight face that it's keeping its pledge, even from the first minute?/quote]

I think we were willing to take on people's anger in order to allow the board to come out a better place than it was.


Why was this line (apparently) not drawn before the administration felt compelled to "randomly" ban over two dozen members?

Because it wasn't working. Anyone could see that the way we were dealing with problems wasn't working, and some more drastic needed to be done.

And is constructive disagreement with the administration now no longer acceptable?

Nope, but the key word is constructive.

Seriously? Random three-day ban of thirty members is levelheaded? Can the administration name ONE other forum wherein anything remotely like this happened and had it ultimately turn out for the forum's best interest? As an experienced forumer in a lot of other places (and occasional admin myself), this one has me flabbergasted. I'd honestly like to know in what universe the administration thought this was a good idea.

Everyone's paying attention now, aren't they?

The thing is, other forums don't do this, and they just go on a downwards spiral where the members take over the forum, the thing goes in the toilet and the admin eventually closes the site. We can do that, if you really want to.

I would -- as respectfully as possible -- like to suggest that the administration needs to take a time out itself. Whether the administration intends it or not, its recent actions VERY MUCH feel to us members as if the situations are being badly handled and members are being tyrannized on the administration's personal whims.

I actually did just take one, only mine lasted a month. It was great, really helped me not take things so seriously here. If people had actually taken the advice, they'd have seen how much it helps too.
 
S
Seraphim
Anger is almost always destructive, not constructive. I think you're starting to see the living example right before your eyes.
R
Revolver
Every argument up until the one you started yourself was good-natured...you've decided everyone should turn against each other. You did this yourself.
What do you mean by taking the boards too seriously? I take things seriously when it comes to my friends and to see so many upset by this is pretty damn serious.
 
Buffy: I guess I'm really not seeing why you had to go piss the entire boards off instead of simply warning "we're gonna be going after offenders hardcore from now on" and then giving people "time-outs" when they actually, y'know, DID SOMETHING WRONG. *dry*

There's just this surreal "In Soviet Russia, banning deserve YOU!" vibe to the whole thing.
 
Y
yellowcrayon
[No message]
H
Harley
who's "the entire board"? i think she's on the ball
Now I wonder - What was banning people, giving them a "time out" suppose to do for the board, besides deserting it?

Dru, it was supposed to make everyone appreciate what it's like to NOT have you on the board with them. But also that, what people do on a message board does not affect who you are or your worth as a person.

So why? Why only those members? What did they do? Are we really that cliquey? Are we bullies? Why has it been 15 minutes and we're still banned?
Why?

Honestly? There are a lot of your fellow members who think that cliques are a big problem. A lot left the board because of it long before this weekend.

But why those members? Because as I said, those are the ones who had the most to gain by it, and those were the ones that people would notice were gone.

Dru, if you decide you don't want to be here anymore, I will totally understand that. But you don't need MY approval. Your life and what you do with your time is what you make of it. What we're trying to do here is make this a place where everyone can be happy posting again. Not just a few, but everyone.

---------- Post added at 12:42 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:40 AM ----------

That is because when the board has donwtime, no one is being singled out.
You know what, it wasn't us that went through and posted a list of names. We intentionally didn't do that. It's a large number for the exact reason of not singling anyone out.

---------- Post added at 12:45 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:42 AM ----------

I guess what I am having an issue understanding is what type of arguing is wrong? I have had several disagreements in my short time on this board and one of them had several people who who where arguing against me. None of those people where doing it in away where I took any personal offense to what they where saying. We just simply disagreed about the topic at hand. I haven't felt bullied in anyway by ANYONE on this board. I'm NOT saying these gang ups, bullies and other things don't happen I am certain they do. I just feel like we need a good definition of what exactly it is you can and can not do while arguing. If that makes sense.

Please don't get me wrong here I'm not trying to say that what you did was wrong. I just feel like I don't completely understand.

Good question. Arguing your points and disagreeing about topics is fine. It's when it becomes "You're a moron." "You're idea is stupid." "You're not allowed to give me negative karma" that it becomes a problem.

Please, discuss to your heart's content, have disagreements about Bangel and Spuffy, but don't belittle someone else to do it.
 
I agree about the cliques, and there has been a strange vibe on the boards recently.
Sadly I think this has just lead to more cliques, the banned and un-banned. This is clearly not a happy environment. I wish it was, but people clearly feel insulted, offended, and singled-out which means the time-out has not progressed things, just added to an already tense boards.
 
What do you mean by taking the boards too seriously? I take things seriously when it comes to my friends and to see so many upset by this is pretty damn serious.
People were getting super upset by negative karma. People were getting all riled up about things like Twilight. Things that shouldn't have totally caused a crisis on the boards, were. Everyone was so hyper-sensitive to everything that it seemed like everything was turning into a fight between members. This person is mad at this person who's mad at this person...

I was just there. People were actually worried about me. I was worried about me. Some of you may remember psycho Buffy from about two months ago? Being away just helped me so much. I really honestly wanted to give that to you all. I honestly thought it would help you to be happier here.
 
S
StuckinTraffic
I was kinda worried about you, actually!
You know what, it wasn't us that went through and posted a list of names. We intentionally didn't do that. It's a large number for the exact reason of not singling anyone out.

I'll be posting more later, after I have done some work, but for now, Buffy, it seems incomprehensible to me how you can defend an action that has upset people in such a way that you don't actually defend it.

Giving people a 'time out', fair game, call it what it said on the message we received though, a 'ban', but the point is some(read most) of us have active lives, we don't need you to tell us to take time away from something to gain perspective.

This might have been your world at one point (thats for you to decide) but most of us are only on here when we want to be because we want to meet friends.

Also, if the rumours are true that you had people 'spying' on our facebooks and reporting to you - I feel actually violated.
You have broken a trust that you will never get back, and that saddens me greatly.

You may have succeeded in 'uniting' the board but that united front is out of losing respect for you, and to a lesser extent, the rest of the admin team and if people here don't respect you guys, well you're gonna have a whole host of premanent bans coming soon.
 
D
DrusillaRox
big ol agreements
R
Revolver
I already did, but I only respect you more after this, Al. You have been far more respectful than most of the Mods to everyone involved, and that is a fact.
Sweetescape
Sweetescape
[No message]
F
Floop695
[No message]
B
Blondie Bear
[No message]
You know what, it wasn't us that went through and posted a list of names. We intentionally didn't do that. It's a large number for the exact reason of not singling anyone out.

Despite you intetnions being good, it had that affect. Members didn't understand why. What they did wrong, what they were supposed to think about.

I don't think the best way to "fix" a board is to randomly ban the active members without telling them what they did to deserve the ban
 
BuffyElevated
BuffyElevated
[No message]
R
Revolver
Dru, you did nothing wrong at any point. Perhaps I did, but never forget what a great member you were throughout all of this and I am completely behind you!
F
Floop695
Agreed. Also, you may already know that Joss Whedon also did a lot of The Runaways comics :)
Buffy: I guess I'm really not seeing why you had to go piss the entire boards off instead of simply warning "we're gonna be going after offenders hardcore from now on" and then giving people "time-outs" when they actually, y'know, DID SOMETHING WRONG. *dry*

There's just this surreal "In Soviet Russia, banning deserve YOU!" vibe to the whole thing.

LMAO "In Soviet Russia, car drives you!" Awesome.

Anyway. Honestly, what you suggest is what we've been doing. But it's not solving any of the problems or changing anyone's behavior. People kind of go, "yeah, yeah, stop fighting, ok" and then go right on. Or they say, "It's not me, it's them." It wasn't working. We all need to do better.

---------- Post added at 12:54 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:52 AM ----------

I agree about the cliques, and there has been a strange vibe on the boards recently.
Sadly I think this has just lead to more cliques, the banned and un-banned. This is clearly not a happy environment. I wish it was, but people clearly feel insulted, offended, and singled-out which means the time-out has not progressed things, just added to an already tense boards.
Yes, you're right. It didn't have to be that way, but you're right. And the staff was prepared for this not to work, but we still thought it was worth a try to save the board.
 
R
Revolver
The worst results of the board are a direct result of the staff's response to punish the innocent, rather than ever warn people about their behavior or anything. You did this yourself and you are responsible.
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