Title of the final S.8 arc is....

[AndrewCrossett]

Considering the world is in the very act of ending right now, and the Scoobies have no clue whatsoever how to stop it, I don't think there's any possible fix anymore aside from time travel.

I don't think it's going to be as simple as "magical do-over, and everything's OK." I think changing the timeline is going to involve a great deal of sacrifice. I predict at least one Scooby death. And just as some dead characters might be spared death in the new timeline, some characters who survived before might not be so lucky this time.

Imagine, for instance: what if the Future Dark Willow of ToYL is there because in the new timeline, season 6 Dark Willow was never saved from her darkness? But if that's the case, she never would have cast the Scythe spell in season 7, and the Slayer army would never have existed, and Twilight would never have come about.

That, however, would pretty much remove seasons 7 and 8 completely from continuity, as they currently exist.

However, it's been strongly suggested that characters like Simone and Satsu will be a part of season 9. If the Slayer army is retconned out of existence, I don't know why those characters would figure in the future of the story.

It may be more of a "surgical strike" thing... finding out the exact event that set Twilight in motion, and changing that one event. It might be possible to do that with minimal damage to the rest of the timeline.

 

[white avenger]

Once you start making changes like that, you get into the whole "For want of a nail, the shoe was lost," thing, where each little changed detail builds and builds until disaster is the ultimate outcome. What do you change, and what are the consequences?

If it turns out that Angel actually is to blame for all of the trouble, you could make a "surgical strike" by never having Darla turn him, or simply having Whistler never recruit him, then practically everything from "Welcome To The Hellmouth" on would have gone differently. But how do we know that the resulting reality will be better, or even as good?

Cordelia's wish that Buffy had never come to Sunnydale resulted in total disaster, then later, when she accepted Chip's manipulation of her fate resulted in a happier, more successful future for her, but was yet another disaster for everyone else involved

If Willow had never resurrected Buffy in Season 6, the First Evil would never have had the opportunity to make its attempt to take over the world, but there would also have been no active Slayer for as long as Faith remained in prison (25 years before eligibility for parole, if I recall correctly) during which time all hell, literally, could have broken out.

The closest thing to a successful manipulation of fate was Angel's actions at the end of the "After The Fall" arc, but that was more luck than design. It might just as well have ended much worse.

( I'm not even going to go into the risks that Angel took on two other occasions, other than to say that neither one achieved the desired result)

Manipulating time, fate, destiny, or whatever you choose to call it, MAY result in a better world, but never without some kind of cost, usually very expensive.

 

[AndrewCrossett]

Oh, I have no doubt there will be consequences to whatever they do to stop Twilight. Maybe very big consequences.

Hence season 9.

 

[LyteHouse]

Hmmm, I wonder if Joss will tie all this into the legend of the last slayer we saw in the Fray book?

 

[white avenger]

Hmmm, I wonder if Joss will tie all this into the legend of the last slayer we saw in the Fray book?

Good question. We've assumed ever since the "Fray" miniseries was published that "the Slayer" who was spoken of as vanquishing all of the demons was, in fact, Buffy, but there has never been any definite confirmation on the matter. Buffy and all of the other new Slayers except one might very well be dead before that final battle even begins. In fact, that would even make more sense, since a single Slayer, regardless of who her "friends" might be, would have less chance of winning that kind of battle than an army of Slayers led by Buffy, and no doubt reinforced by allies such as Angel, Spike, Willow, and, of course, Andrew the Awesome, former super villain and vanquisher of the First Evil (Buffy and her girls helped, of course, but Andrew and Spike really saved the day)

 

[Buffyverse Fan]

Oh my God...you just seriously blew my mind. Time travel? Could that...really be possible? Could, say, Anya be saved? could they reverse Angel's decision to become Twilight? What then? That would change everything.

Wow, if Joss retconned Angel Season 5, which he'd have to at least partly if they un-destroyed Sunnydale, WOW! That would certainly be unexpected to say the least. It would be arguably groundbreaking for a TV writer to undo an entire season of his show in comic-form...

I mean, I'd be a little huffy about him retconning After the Fall, but that pales in comparison to resurrecting Cordy, Wes and Fred!

Which reminds me of Spike/William's poem in the Fool for Love episode. "What's another word for gleaming? It's a perfectly perfect word as far as words go but the problem is that nothing rhymes" So he went with "effulgent".

My first thought as well. He reads the completed poem in "Not Fade Away." 🙂

 

[AndrewCrossett]

The question is, would it be retconned in the way After the Fall was, with everyone remembering everything? In this case, that might defeat the purpose.

I kind of doubt Joss would just wipe out that much story, because he'd have to wipe out a lot of character development and a lot of work by other writers, as well as himself. I'm leaning toward the "surgical strike" scenario.

It depends on whether Joss subscribes to the "flowing river" or "butterfly effect" school of thought regarding time travel.

The "flowing river" theory holds that the time-stream will simply correct itself to allow for any changes, with regards to things not directly tied to that change. For example, going back and killing a person would remove that person and his specific actions from history, but other things would change to make up for his absence in the grand scheme of things.

The "butterfly effect" states that even the tiniest change to the past will expand geometrically, causing vast changes the further into the future you go from that point... killing a single butterfly could cause the whole course of civilization to go down a completely different path.

The fact that Buffy was able to return from Fray's future without fundamentally changing it suggests that Joss goes with the "flowing river" theory. Either that, or multiple timelines.

And we will get the story of the "last Slayer" and the banishing of magic in season 8. Connecting BtVS up with Fray was one of Joss's main goals.

 

[Daniel Osbourne]

I really doubt that Joss will undo Buffy Season 7 on. To me, the entire show from "Welcome to the Hellmouth", heck, even from the movie, builds up to the entire Slayer line being abolished.

From the opening frames of WTTH, we hear "Every generation there is A Chosen One. SHE ALONE will stand against the vampires, the demons and the forces of darkness." Buffy has always been fighting against what the Big Bads, the Watcher's Coucil and the Shadow Men expect of the Slayer. At the end of Chosen, she is not alone. She has an entire army of Slayers to assist her in the fight against evil. Plus her beloved sister and devoted friends. Finally, Buffy has turned over even what the omniscient Season 1 narrator expects of her. To undo Chosen woul defeat the entire mission statement of the show.

It seems like Buffy and company will be going back to Seasons 1-3, based on the Geanty cover. Yay, back to high school!

 

[Buffyverse Fan]

The question is, would it be retconned in the way After the Fall was, with everyone remembering everything? In this case, that might defeat the purpose.

Even if it is retconned in that manner, Fred & Wes would not die this time around unless they're certifiably stupid. Anya would also have a good shot at survival.

I kind of doubt Joss would just wipe out that much story, because he'd have to wipe out a lot of character development and a lot of work by other writers, as well as himself. I'm leaning toward the "surgical strike" scenario.

It depends on whether Joss subscribes to the "flowing river" or "butterfly effect" school of thought regarding time travel.

The "flowing river" theory holds that the time-stream will simply correct itself to allow for any changes, with regards to things not directly tied to that change. For example, going back and killing a person would remove that person and his specific actions from history, but other things would change to make up for his absence in the grand scheme of things.

The "butterfly effect" states that even the tiniest change to the past will expand geometrically, causing vast changes the further into the future you go from that point... killing a single butterfly could cause the whole course of civilization to go down a completely different path.

The fact that Buffy was able to return from Fray's future without fundamentally changing it suggests that Joss goes with the "flowing river" theory. Either that, or multiple timelines.

And we will get the story of the "last Slayer" and the banishing of magic in season 8. Connecting BtVS up with Fray was one of Joss's main goals.

Well, I believe you hazarded the guess of BS8 involving multiple time lines years back. Personally, I think Joss like most authors will use whichever time travel rules fit best with his current story. I have no problem with this since we've seen both methods in the series already:

• "The Wish" created an alt!universe
• "IWRY" fundamentally altered the path Buffy & Angel were headed towards.

As much as I'd HATE to lose Angel Season 5, I'd be tempted to acquiesce to a partial retcon to bring Fred, Wes, and Anya back...

 

[AndrewCrossett]

Even if it is retconned in that manner, Fred & Wes would not die this time around unless they're certifiably stupid. Anya would also have a good shot at survival.

Well, I'd love to have Anya back. And I loved Fred, but bringing her back would inevitably erase Illyria, and I like her a lot too. (And this would really piss off IDW, since she's a major character in both the Angel ongoing comic and the upcoming Spike one by Brian Lynch. Not to mention that IDW's entire Angel series, including AtF, would be wiped from continuity as a result. If you thought they were ticked off over the Angel-as-Twilight reveal...)

And Wes had a really effective farewell. Almost as good as Cordelia's. Bringing him back now would be kind of anticlimactic. It would be like if it turned out Obi-Wan had only been wounded in his fight with Darth Vader, and was going to be OK.

 

[white avenger]

[*]"IWRY" fundamentally altered the path Buffy & Angel were headed towards.

Ultimately, it really didn't change anything. Angel remained a vampire with a curse attached to his soul, which we later learned was his fate in order to fulfill the Shanshu prophesy, therefore becoming human actually is his destiny, and his so called bargain with the Powers only served to postpone it, and Buffy still died within two years protecting someone who she loved. Granted, that "someone" wasn't Angel, and the death wasn't permanent. The failure there as well as every other time in the Buffyverse that someone attempts actually alter the course of time simply reinforces the principal that fate or destiny is an inescapable process. Sending Buffy, Angel, or whoever back in time to attempt to change anything would be doomed to failure in the long run. Buffy will still wind up leading a Slayer army in opposition to an evil force that appears to be commanded by Angel.

Given the choice between that and the alternative, creating anomalies that might literally destroy all of their reality, the "inescapable fate" rule seems to work out for the best.

 

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

Boy, has Angel royally screwed everything up this time. I understand that they have to go back to erase his choice to become Twilight, but I just wish that it could be done with minimal risk to the Scoobies. If, say, Xander died in this mission, it would be devestating.

Sending Buffy, Angel, or whoever back in time to attempt to change anything would be doomed to failure in the long run. Buffy will still wind up leading a Slayer army in opposition to an evil force that appears to be commanded by Angel.Given the choice between that and the alternative, creating anomalies that might literally destroy all of their reality, the "inescapable fate" rule seems to work out for the best.

I don't know. Wasn't the whole point of the last issue to show that Buffy can cheat her "fate"? She basically told destiny to screw its self. I think the idea Joss is getting at this that, in the end, these characters will have the power to choose their own fate.

Angel, though, I'm not so sure about. As of now, he's a puppet. Maybe he always has been.

---------- Post added at 08:12 AM ---------- Previous post was at 07:53 AM ----------

Ultimately, it really didn't change anything. Angel remained a vampire with a curse attached to his soul, which we later learned was his fate in order to fulfill the Shanshu prophesy, therefore becoming human actually is his destiny, and his so called bargain with the Powers only served to postpone it, and Buffy still died within two years protecting someone who she loved. Granted, that "someone" wasn't Angel, and the death wasn't permanent. The failure there as well as every other time in the Buffyverse that someone attempts actually alter the course of time simply reinforces the principal that fate or destiny is an inescapable process. Sending Buffy, Angel, or whoever back in time to attempt to change anything would be doomed to failure in the long run. Buffy will still wind up leading a Slayer army in opposition to an evil force that appears to be commanded by Angel.

Given the choice between that and the alternative, creating anomalies that might literally destroy all of their reality, the "inescapable fate" rule seems to work out for the best.

Also...

Remember what Buffy said last issue? In response's to Angel's shock that she would be willing to give up her "destiny" as the Other Half of the Evolved Master Race, her response was:

I never do what I'm meant for.

By leaving Twilight and helping her friends, she resisted her fate.

As I said in the thread for issue #35:

Screw destiny, screw fate! Buffy makes her own fate, and Angel is destiny's bitch and pawn.

 

[AndrewCrossett]

ANGEL (to Jasmine): "Our fate has to be our own, or we're nothing."

Angel said that to Jasmine right after she tried to justify mass murder with arithmetic -- "I killed thousands to save billions" -- and conveniently appointed herself the decider of who got to live and who got to die.

Just like Twilight.

 

[Buffyverse Fan]

Well, I'd love to have Anya back. And I loved Fred, but bringing her back would inevitably erase Illyria, and I like her a lot too. (And this would really piss off IDW, since she's a major character in both the Angel ongoing comic and the upcoming Spike one by Brian Lynch. Not to mention that IDW's entire Angel series, including AtF, would be wiped from continuity as a result. If you thought they were ticked off over the Angel-as-Twilight reveal...)

Lol, Bill Willingham's eyes would bleed.

Actually, the Illyria thing could make a great story. Remember how Joss said that in S6 he had planned to make Fred & Illyria share the body?

Well assuming all of AS5 and AtF are partially retconned, and everyone remembers everything, they could do a story sometime after we check in on Angel Inc. post-2004, with Fred & Wes alive again. Somehow the entire team has been taken out/captured except for Fred, and she reluctantly reinfects herself with Illyria to save them. This time she's managed some technopagan way to keep herself alive, and Illyria isn't quite evil this time since she still has her memories from this continuity.

And Wes had a really effective farewell. Almost as good as Cordelia's. Bringing him back now would be kind of anticlimactic. It would be like if it turned out Obi-Wan had only been wounded in his fight with Darth Vader, and was going to be OK.

I agree with you there, however, Buffy had a pretty big exit in the S5 finale 😛

 

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

ANGEL (to Jasmine): "Our fate has to be our own, or we're nothing."

Angel said that to Jasmine right after she tried to justify mass murder with arithmetic -- "I killed thousands to save billions" -- and conveniently appointed herself the decider of who got to live and who got to die.

Just like Twilight.

Yeah, you're in agreement with me, right? There are definitely similarities with Jasmine's and Twilight's philosophies.

I think it has been established clearly that this Twilight is not in any shape or form the Angel we once knew (well, except that he's still totally whipped by Buffy). Angel obviously no longer believes that one can cheat fate and destiny. It appears me no longer even wants too. Rather, he'd just go by what the Universe tells him too, yet again allowing himself to be a pawn in a larger game, only this time its the final round.

More shocking is that Angel expressed puzzlement at the idea that Buffy would reject "what the universe has spent millions of years setting in motion" (i.e. "fate") to attempt to save her loved ones. Surely Angel hasn't lost so much of his humanity that he can't understand where Buffy is coming from. This is Master Angel Manipulator at his best. Perhaps W&H were right. Maybe Angel is best and most useful on the side of evil?

And like you say, this is a character who in the past, refused to believe the idea that "the end justifies the means." Angel refused to allow hundreds daily to die by Jasmine's hand to bring about World Peace for billions. His actions in the latest issue were so OOC it borders on absurd.

Maybe this whole thing is supposed to be a farce, and Joss and Co. are playing us and laughing their asses off right now at our reactions. If anything should be retconned, its this season.

 

[Buffyverse Fan]

Yeah, you're in agreement with me, right? There are definitely similarities with Jasmine's and Twilight's philosophies.

I think it has been established clearly that this Twilight is not in any shape or form the Angel we once knew (well, except that he's still totally whipped by Buffy). Angel obviously no longer believes that one can cheat fate and destiny. It appears me no longer even wants too. Rather, he'd just go by what the Universe tells him too, yet again allowing himself to be a pawn in a larger game, only this time its the final round.

More shocking is that Angel expressed puzzlement at the idea that Buffy would reject "what the universe has spent millions of years setting in motion" (i.e. "fate") to attempt to save her loved ones. Surely Angel hasn't lost so much of his humanity that he can't understand where Buffy is coming from.

This is Master Angel Manipulator at his best. Perhaps W&H were right. Maybe Angel is best and most useful on the side of evil?

And like you say, this is a character who in the past, refused to believe the idea that "the end justifies the means." Angel refused to allow hundreds daily to die by Jasmine's hand to bring about World Peace for billions. His actions in the latest issue were so OOC it borders on absurd.

Maybe this whole thing is supposed to be a farce, and Joss and Co. are playing us and laughing their asses off right now at our reactions. If anything should be retconned, its this season.

Yeah, I agree completely. Like I said last month, the only way this would even come close to jibing with Angel's character is if none of Angel the series is considered canon here...

 

[AndrewCrossett]

Well, Angel hasn't really said anything since shaking off the effects of Twilight, except to agree with Willow's cutting remark about him. I'm hoping there will be a lot of "What have I done?" in the next arc, showing that Angel's thoughts were distorted by Twilight and he wasn't in control of himself. The jury is still out.

 

[Buffyverse Fan]

Well, Angel hasn't really said anything since shaking off the effects of Twilight, except to agree with Willow's cutting remark about him. I'm hoping there will be a lot of "What have I done?" in the next arc, showing that Angel's thoughts were distorted by Twilight and he wasn't in control of himself. The jury is still out.

But then that would bring us back to the question of how could Angel shake Twilight off so easily if he was truly being mind-controlled...

 

[AndrewCrossett]

But then that would bring us back to the question of how could Angel shake Twilight off so easily if he was truly being mind-controlled...

The Power of Love!

(...Hey, don't look at me... it was the subtitle of the issue.)

 

[Moscow Watcher]

The Power of Love!

(...Hey, don't look at me... it was the subtitle of the issue.)

You mean his eternal love to his Blondie Bear? 🙂