Vampires and the Soul

[InsaneMystic]

But is it not a fairly common word used with that genre? How often is that word through around in B-rate horror flicks, etc? I think it was more about word recognition with a genre element than any religious connotations. The best way to imply someone was amoral? oh, they are soulless.

Yep, I get what you're saying... just because it's a genre convention doesn't mean it automatically makes good sense as a sound concept, though. 😉

 

[fly on the wall]

I think a soul is a pretty ambiguous thing. Especially since some of the very worst villains in the series are people with souls (Warren, anyone?).

I view the soul as the ABILITY to be a good, moral individual. It gives you a choice more so than an actual moral compass or a conscience. Humans have the ability to ignore their consciences or wear them away until they don't care anymore...same as they CAN feel empathy, but not everyone does, and some people do more than others. Vampires can't, end of story. They can't take into consideration other peoples' feelings (unless it benefits themselves in some way), they can't feel remorse, so on and so forth.

 

[Willow My Love]

Drucilla seemed to display a lot of emotions as well. Jealousy, love, anger, pain. I don't really think they mean they don't have souls, I think it's more like they don't really have a conscience. If you have no soul, you don't have a personality, IMO. And not all of the vampires changed like Angel did. Look at Harmony (If she was different in Angel, I have yet to see the whole series, so I'm speaking from a strictly BTVS viewpoint.) She really didn't change. She was the same superficial, annoying, shallow girl she was before.

Then there's some like Vamp Willow. She was totally different. And Angel even tried to correct Buffy when she said that a vampire's personality has nothing to do with who they were when they were alive. I think it's more like on TVD. They can turn on and off emotions, so to speak.

 

[LadyLavinia]

I view the soul as the ABILITY to be a good, moral individual.

I don't. I view the soul as the ability to make choices and be an individual. Moral compass and having a soul means squat to me. And I view many of the fans' association with the soul and moral compass as an attempt on their part to view humanity in a good light, if possible - especially through science fiction and fantasy.

 

[Kana]

I don't. I view the soul as the ability to make choices and be an individual. Moral compass and having a soul means squat to me. And I view many of the fans' association with the soul and moral compass as an attempt on their part to view humanity in a good light, if possible - especially through science fiction and fantasy.

But the ability to make choices and be an individual can apply to apply to a soulless vampire as well and this is what is problematic. The best way I can describe it is that they have a choice based upon their particular nature, just as humans do. I would agree that it's unfair to class humans as morally superior but we can't ignore that if you take the average human, he/she won't go out killing people every night without remorse but turn him/her into a vampire and he/she will.

While I don't in anyway understand the concept of a metaphysical ball of conscience, I can identify what I believe to be the positive traits in humanity even if it is totally down to socialisation and biology. In the Verse, the problem is that vampires (even the most evil ones) stink of humanity, with their jealousy, love, greed and pettiness. The paradox is that they also take on a predetory nature somewhat removed from what is considered the norm for humanity.

The Slayer's job can be considered selfish from a human perspective. The preservation of human life for the sake of human life. This is why I love Angel. Many people criticize him for sitting on his vampire arse for 100 years but basically, he wondered pretty much the same thing. Saving humanity because of their inherent goodness? He found himself emotionally unable to kill but wondered if humanity is worth saving. Buffy considered it a duty partly because she's connected to humanity, but Angel isn't and it's fair that he questions why people are worth saving, and indeed if he himself is worth saving.

Vampires who are soulless can hold a mirror up to us and we can see our own faults and failings. We can identify with love, pain, hope, but our characters also have to make a choice if they want to die or not. Vampires care precious little if our hopes and dreams are fulfilled and because of that that's why they are to be killed to preserve ours. Many the moral complication isn't ignored. It certainly isn't with Spike and Harmony.

 

[fly on the wall]

I don't. I view the soul as the ability to make choices and be an individual. Moral compass and having a soul means squat to me. And I view many of the fans' association with the soul and moral compass as an attempt on their part to view humanity in a good light, if possible - especially through science fiction and fantasy.

I should have said, "Within the Buffyverse" at the beginning of my post.

 

[SlayerFae]

I agree that the soul in the Buffyverse stands in for a conscience. Here's where I found this to be true: In Dopplegangland, when Buffy was trying to tell Willow that Vamp Willow wasn't really HER anymore but Angel was like "Well, actually..." And Buffy had to shut him up. The whole "It's just a demon, it's not really your friend/loved one" is just the comforting lie that Watchers tell their slayers (I assume) to make them do what they must, even when someone they love stares them in the face. And Buffy, I really believe, is the slayer who sees past that, but knows how important that lie is to tell her friends. This explains Spike's behavior sans soul. He's still very much William, the man who was a romantic at heart. The soullessness in him, the demon part of him just helped him find a romantic side to his new way of life and kept him from feeling remorse. I would even say that WITH a soul, he would have tried to vamp his mother, because he did love her dearly and didn't want to see her suffer in illness any longer.

This also explains Angelus. He never really loved anything (except his sister, Kathy) and spent his life trying to rebel against his parents and the way of life he was EXPECTED to have in Galway. He wanted more than anything to prove to his parents that he was strong and independent, and didn't need his father to control his life. I think he cared for his father enough that all the ways his father tore into him really did hurt. After being turned, he wanted to prove once and for all that he was better than his father, more successful than him. Being a vampire gives you this inflated ego. You're immortal, you're strong, you can have whatever you want, and in a vampire's eyes it IS success. Hence him killing his family first. I think his mother and sister were just collateral damage to make a point to his father. He may have still loved them, but the lack of a conscience/soul meant that their deaths would just make the impact on his father more hurtful and effective.

 

[LadyLavinia]

Do you guys really believe in this crap about a soul as a stand-in for conscience, or are you blindly following Joss Whedon's use of the soul as a story device?

For me, it's a story device that doesn't make sense, considering his characterization of Spike - especially during Seasons 5 and 6. Some fans would use this as an excuse that Spike was unique as a vampire. I think that's a load of crock. I think that many fans and humans in general want to identify others via some very simpleton ways . . . you know, easy labeling. It's better than considering the possibility that nature is a lot more complex and chaotic than many want to believe. And it also seems as if Whedon (who seems to consider himself the King of Complexity) cannot see how the whole soul=conscience is a questionable and one-dimensional method for characterization.

 

[Kana]

Do you guys really believe in this crap about a soul as a stand-in for conscience, or are you blindly following Joss Whedon's use of the soul as a story device?

For the most part I try to make it make sense. The soul can also be represented as the spirit as shown in Shells, so accept all applicable, possible theories. I mean in any respect, Joss admitted the soul is a plot device.

For Angel is the whole metaphor of one's boyfriend turning into a jerk after you've slept with him.

With Spike it was about the concept of earning a soul through good deeds. As I've often said, Joss is about the metaphor rather than the metaphysics. However, I'll still try and find a relatively consistent picture.

For me, it's a story device that doesn't make sense, considering his characterization of Spike - especially during Seasons 5 and 6. Some fans would use this as an excuse that Spike was unique as a vampire. I think that's a load of crock. I think that many fans and humans in general want to identify others via some very simpleton ways . . . you know, easy labeling. It's better than considering the possibility that nature is a lot more complex and chaotic than many want to believe. And it also seems as if Whedon (who seems to consider himself the King of Complexity) cannot see how the whole soul=conscience is a questionable and one-dimensional method for characterization.

I agree, but I still believe that vampire psychology differs from human psychology. When a human is turned, however you argue it, there at least 'different' from their predecessor. I have to place at least some importance in the soul, even in Spike's case. otherwise, why would he go through the fuss of actually getting one?

 

[LadyLavinia]

I agree, but I still believe that vampire psychology differs from human psychology. When a human is turned, however you argue it, there at least 'different' from their predecessor. I have to place at least some importance in the soul, even in Spike's case. otherwise, why would he go through the fuss of actually getting one?

Going from human to vampire should not make an individual better or worse. Just different.

As for why Spike would go through the fuss of actually getting a soul? Simple. Plot device. The whole aspect of a soul on both shows seemed nothing more than a plot device for the non-human characters' development . . . or lack thereof.