Vampires, Souls, And Double Standards

[Kean]

As you said, a lot of this falls on the writers and the arcs they created. Of course they couldn't have Spike wallow for 100 years if he was to return to Sunnydale in order to save the world a few months later. So there's an understandable disappointment there, for sure. I think they tried to expedite the grief period by having him do things like try to cut out his own heart and begging Buffy to kill him, (twice). It's unfair to say he was unchanged or felt no remorse.

I don't know if unfair is the word I would use but I understand my take isn't the take every viewer will have, especially Spike fans. I acknowledge that Spike does go on a journey of self-realisation about his soul that doesn't really begin until he puts on that amulet in "Chosen", but at the same time I find it very hard to care about that journey during S7 when he is doing things like threatening to kill Wood. A man, while trying to bring harm to Spike, had his entire life ruined by Spike, and Spike doesn't care about that. For me to care about Spike I need him to care about this kind of stuff. That's my personal perference and taste as a consumer of entertainer. I suppose I expected Spike to be humbled in some way by having a soul, to see the desperation of Wood and acknowledge the major role his former self played in leading that man to that point where he was trying to kill Spike. Maybe that comes later for Spike? I think we see the beginnings of it in "Damage", but fair or not, things like this sway my opinion of Spike massively. I can't think of many situations where I identify or empathise with Spike and his choices.

But here's what I don't understand: why is it unacceptable for fans to both laud him for his good deeds AND hold him accountable for the horrific ones? Starting in season 5 when his values clearly begin to shift, he is no longer wholly bad but he of course is not good, either. Some fans, myself included, decide that he cannot be labeled but rather that he exists in a grey area in seasons 5 and 6. He is progressing toward something good but obviously is to be held fully accountable for the Doctor scheme and the sexual assault. I don't believe that the good things come from altruism either, but that doesn't mean that they are insignificant, especially because they are made by an entirely soulless creature who is fighting his nature in order to do them--selfishly motivated or not.

See, for me, I don't see any progression toward "goodness". I see a vampire, muzzled and adapting to the situation he finds himself in in order to survive. I don't believe for a second that he was approaching some sort of significant moral shift. That's my reading of the show and character, I understand completely that it is not everyone's take. But this is how it adds up and makes sense for me.

Agree, again, not "true" goodness. But there was enough there in order for him to realize that if he was ever going to truly control himself he would need to regain his soul.

Again, I don't believe that is why he got the soul, I think he got it to make Buffy love him. I watched the episode several times, I've read the shooting script even more times, and nowhere in it do I see a being seeking out a way to reign itself in.

 

[fredthe3rd]

I thought he went to get his soul because he felt so ashamed of what he'd done to the woman he loved. I haven't analysed the episodes or watched them many times. That's just what I thought the motivation was when I first watched them.

As for needing a soul to be a good person, I think there were elements of good in him before getting his soul, he seemed to have genuine affection towards Dawn, even though it probably started with him trying to impress Buffy. If the chip stopped working I'm not entirely convinced he'd have instantly turned on them all.

(I was a bit nervous of posting on one of these Spike threads - I just hope I haven't said anything too contentious)

 

[Black Eye Guy]

I thought he went to get his soul because he felt so ashamed of what he'd done to the woman he loved. I haven't analysed the episodes or watched them many times. That's just what I thought the motivation was when I first watched them.

*Jumps down throat*

No I'm kidding 🙂

Thats exactly what I thought when I first watched it. I had watched it a couple of times and read the script for it when I started forming my arguments about Spike a few years ago, after I looked into it I changed my mind and I thought it was very clear that part of him was ashamed, but a bigger part was him thinking "If I have a soul, she'll be forced to love me, the only thing stopping her is I don't have a soul"

From what he actually says, It's my opinion, that it's very clear what he's thinking, saying things like "Bitch is gonna see a change" doesn't seem remorseful

 

[fredthe3rd]

From what he actually says, It's my opinion, that it's very clear what he's thinking, saying things like "Bitch is gonna see a change" doesn't seem remorseful

Oh well there is that!

 

[Buffy Summers]

It's weird, when I first saw that episode, I didn't get that he was going to get a soul. I thought he wanted to be returned to how he used to be as a vampire so he could kill Buffy.

 

[fredthe3rd]

It's weird, when I first saw that episode, I didn't get that he was going to get a soul. I thought he wanted to be returned to how he used to be as a vampire so he could kill Buffy.

I reckon that's what the writers wanted us to think.

(This isn't tagging is it?)

 

[Gum Gnome33]

but at the same time I find it very hard to care about that journey during S7 when he is doing things like threatening to kill Wood. A man, while trying to bring harm to Spike, had his entire life ruined by Spike, and Spike doesn't care about that. For me to care about Spike I need him to care about this kind of stuff. That's my personal perference and taste as a consumer of entertainer. I suppose I expected Spike to be humbled in some way by having a soul, to see the desperation of Wood and acknowledge the major role his former self played in leading that man to that point where he was trying to kill Spike. Maybe that comes later for Spike? I think we see the beginnings of it in "Damage", but fair or not, things like this sway my opinion of Spike massively.

I definitely agree about Wood. I won't get into it in detail, I do have my own rationalization of it, but ultimately I was bothered by it, too. I did desperately want him to visibly, actively, feel more remorse and shame. I get that. And I am very unhappy with a lot of his characterization in Ats season 5 as well. It's not fitting with the progress he'd made. He was put in that show to be a foil for Angel, and to add humor, at the expense of his own characterization. It's one of those things that drives me crazy. It should be noted though that what he does in "Hellbound" is remarkable, and I think it occurs before "Damage."

 

[Kean]

I definitely agree about Wood. I won't get into it in detail, I do have my own rationalization of it, but ultimately I was bothered by it, too. I did desperately want him to visibly, actively, feel more remorse and shame. I get that. And I am very unhappy with a lot of his characterization in Ats season 5 as well. It's not fitting with the progress he'd made. He was put in that show to be a foil for Angel, and to add humor, at the expense of his own characterization. It's one of those things that drives me crazy. It should be noted though that what he does in "Hellbound" is remarkable, and I think it occurs before "Damage."

I haven't seen "Hellbound" in a while, so I'm sketchy on what he did?

I think we can all say that our favourite characters are problematic for us (Buffy's actions in that Wood scene still leave me exasperated, disappointed and uncomfortable) and I can't even begin with Angel (S8 anyone?). But like you said, you find rationalisations and theories that work as best they can for you. I have zero investment in Spike so I don't spend a second trying to rationalise what he does, where as I could write a thesis on trying to crack Angel's actions and motivations.

 

[white avenger]

I find it very hard to care about that journey during S7 when he is doing things like threatening to kill Wood.



See, for me, I don't see any progression toward "goodness". I see a vampire, muzzled and adapting to the situation he finds himself in in order to survive. I don't believe for a second that he was approaching some sort of significant moral shift. That's my reading of the show and character, I understand completely that it is not everyone's take. But this is how it adds up and makes sense for me.




Again, I don't believe that is why he got the soul, I think he got it to make Buffy love him. I watched the episode several times, I've read the shooting script even more times, and nowhere in it do I see a being seeking out a way to reign itself in.

Whereas you see someone who threatens to kill Wood, I see someone who would have been perfectly justified in killing Wood in self defense, but chose not to, in his own words, "because of what he did" to Wood's mother. The soulless Spike of only a year earlier, with no chip to restrain him, would never have been that merciful.

And wasn't Angel, as well as we can ascertain from the few flashbacks that we see, pretty much "a vampire, muzzled and adapting to the situation he finds himself in in order to survive" too? From what we actually know, he never tried to help anyone, or even interact with anyone, unless they literally forced themselves on him, including Whistler, until he first saw Buffy. There is no indication whatsoever that Angel ever made any conscious effort to actually, willingly, try to do anything that could be seen as "good" before coming to Sunnydale unless he had no choice in the matter. In fact, just the opposite, when he left a hotel full of people at the mercy of a demon.

Neither man was, or is, perfect. Each has made mistakes. Both Angel and Spike are works in progress. They have different personalities, different values, and, for the most part, different views of themselves and the world around them. But that in no way makes Angel any more worthy of redemption, or Spike less entitled to his own clean slate upon regaining his soul.

 

[Buffy Summers]

I still think it's a completely different situation between the two. What Spike did before he came to Sunnydale, I think does get forgiven, but once he joined the Scoobies, he's accountable. The same way that any of Angel's bad decisions/actions as Angel he's accountable for. I just don't think getting a soul is the dividing line in Spike's case.

 

[Gum Gnome33]

I haven't seen "Hellbound" in a while, so I'm sketchy on what he did?

Fred had finally found enough wattage, (or whatever convoluted thing they came up with to explain the re-corporializing method), to make Spike "real" again and guarantee that he'd be saved from hell, (at least until he died of course). Pavane, invisible and invincible, starts choking Fred and Angel and co can't save her. Pavane says something like "choose the girl or the flesh, Spike," and he sneaks up on him and knocks him into the circle, corporializing him instead so that they can control him again.

Later, Fred tells Spike that what he did for her just proves to everyone that she was right about him--that he was worth saving. Even though now, of course, she won't be able to help him.

 

[Kean]

Whereas you see someone who threatens to kill Wood, I see someone who would have been perfectly justified in killing Wood in self defense, but chose not to, in his own words, "because of what he did" to Wood's mother. The soulless Spike of only a year earlier, with no chip to restrain him, would never have been that merciful.

Never in a million years will we find common ground on this one 😉 🙂

And wasn't Angel, as well as we can ascertain from the few flashbacks that we see, pretty much "a vampire, muzzled and adapting to the situation he finds himself in in order to survive" too? From what we actually know, he never tried to help anyone, or even interact with anyone, unless they literally forced themselves on him, including Whistler, until he first saw Buffy. There is no indication whatsoever that Angel ever made any conscious effort to actually, willingly, try to do anything that could be seen as "good" before coming to Sunnydale unless he had no choice in the matter. In fact, just the opposite, when he left a hotel full of people at the mercy of a demon.

Now hold up, saving that puppy has to count for something! 😛

You're absolutely right about Angel, and I daresay if he hadn't seen Buffy he'd still be rotting in a alley somewhere. Angel spent a hundred years depressed out of his mind and utterly consumed with his guilt. Buffy changed that, she was the first thing in a lifetime that made him care. However, while he may have lived on the fringes of society and not sought any kind of redemption, he was constantly and completely remorseful. From the first seconds of awareness in that Romanian forest, to right now in S9. Redemption was a concept I don't think he could have formed in his mind without Whistler and Buffy. How could he? He was the first and only of his kind and was completely alone. That resonates with me, though, it doesn't exonerate Angel in any way. He could have done good work. He could have helped people and he didn't. But I am forgiving of Angel in the same way you are of Spike. Angel makes a personal kind of sense to me, Spike enjoys no such benefit.

As stupid and unreasonable as it sounds, I honestly think it comes down to how visibly we can see the effects of the soul on each character. Spike appears to have shrugged it off, where as Angel wears it like a second skin.

Neither man was, or is, perfect. Each has made mistakes. Both Angel and Spike are works in progress. They have different personalities, different values, and, for the most part, different views of themselves and the world around them. But that in no way makes Angel any more worthy of redemption, or Spike less entitled to his own clean slate upon regaining his soul.

Every fan has their own space in their fanon for each character. It's up to each individual fan to decide what role they require each character to play in that. I instinctively don't care for Spike and my fanon plays out accordingly. That's how we can all watch the same show but not see the same show.

Nobody's right or wrong.

 

[white avenger]

I am forgiving of Angel in the same way you are of Spike. Angel makes a personal kind of sense to me, Spike enjoys no such benefit.

But that's my point. I have no more problem forgiving Angel for what he has done than I do in forgiving Spike. I don't put any special significance to the amount of time that Angel spent being a remorseful recluse as opposed to the relatively short time that Spike did the same. Spike was literally dropped into the middle of a war. Someone who he cared a great deal about needed him. He couldn't afford the luxury of crawling off in a hole somewhere. I have no doubt that, if the situations had been reversed, Spike would have spent a century brooding and Angel would have gotten off of his behind and back into the fight where he was needed.

Each man reacted to his individual circumstances in the way that was required of them.

Where I have the problem is when people condemn Spike, not for his actions, but because they have just arbitrarily decided that he, for some reason,isn't worthy of the same chance that Angel is given. I've seen that kind of attitude too much in real life. It's wrong there, and it's wrong in the Buffyverse.

 

[Robb Stark]

Where I have the problem is when people condemn Spike, not for his actions, but because they have just arbitrarily decided that he, for some reason,isn't worthy of the same chance that Angel is given. I've seen that kind of attitude too much in real life. It's wrong there, and it's wrong in the Buffyverse.

You want to talk about double standards? Both Angel and Spike get ripped on by a wide range of fans for actions they did without souls, and yet the atrocities of both Anya and Willow get completely whitewashed and forgotten without a second thought by the vast majority of fans.

Anya was responsible, with a soul, for as much, if not more, death and destruction than Angel and Spike put together, and feels zero guilt over it whatsoever, while Willow willingly taps into a dark power source she knows she has no control over and which will only result in her hurting people. She then tries to end the world. Not only that, but she's using magic again the next season, with the very flimsy excuse of "it's part of her now" (which makes no sense at all).

Now those are double standards.

 

[Tuppence]

You want to talk about double standards? Both Angel and Spike get ripped on by a wide range of fans for actions they did without souls, and yet the atrocities of both Anya and Willow get completely whitewashed and forgotten without a second thought by the vast majority of fans.

Anya was responsible, with a soul, for as much, if not more, death and destruction than Angel and Spike put together, and feels zero guilt over it whatsoever, while Willow willingly taps into a dark power source she knows she has no control over and which will only result in her hurting people. She then tries to end the world. Not only that, but she's using magic again the next season, with the very flimsy excuse of "it's part of her now" (which makes no sense at all).

Now those are double standards.

For what it's worth I don't really do the whole clean slate thing for Willow. At the end of the day, like people who take drugs or smoke themselves to the point of destruction, no matter the circumstances, 9 times out of 10 they're the ones who chose to take the drug and Willow actively chose to take the magicks therefore she's more responsible for what she did than anyone else (as Spike and Angel were both vampires and when Anya commits atrocities she is a demon. And any she makes when she's a demon post Hell's Bells she regrets and is even horrified by what she has done in Selfless). I mean I understand her friends forgiving her and helping her, that's what friends are for, but not one of them says that she was bloody stupid and no amount of post-moping is going to help. Well I think Giles may have hinted at a similar message actually.

I think I may get ripped into for the above comment, haha, but this is just my opinion. I just wanted to say that my judgement of Spike and Angel is no different from any other character.

 

[Kean]

But that's my point. I have no more problem forgiving Angel for what he has done than I do in forgiving Spike. I don't put any special significance to the amount of time that Angel spent being a remorseful recluse as opposed to the relatively short time that Spike did the same. Spike was literally dropped into the middle of a war. Someone who he cared a great deal about needed him. He couldn't afford the luxury of crawling off in a hole somewhere. I have no doubt that, if the situations had been reversed, Spike would have spent a century brooding and Angel would have gotten off of his behind and back into the fight where he was needed.

Each man reacted to his individual circumstances in the way that was required of them.

Where I have the problem is when people condemn Spike, not for his actions, but because they have just arbitrarily decided that he, for some reason,isn't worthy of the same chance that Angel is given. I've seen that kind of attitude too much in real life. It's wrong there, and it's wrong in the Buffyverse.

What's the alternative? An uniform way in which we interpret the show so we all agree?

I also don't think it is "arbitrary" the way this double standard came about. My first post in this thread laid out a few of the reasons why Spike's story leaves me less sympathetic to him. They are valid reasons. There are traits to Spike's character that I really don't like, traits I find in Willow too. For instance, I find the double standard between Willow and Faith far more problematic. Both took human life but only one was held accountable. But, I know for a fact there are members that value those traits and don't like some of the ones that I value in characters. That's just the relationship between fiction and its audience.

 

[white avenger]

You want to talk about double standards? Both Angel and Spike get ripped on by a wide range of fans for actions they did without souls, and yet the atrocities of both Anya and Willow get completely whitewashed and forgotten without a second thought by the vast majority of fans.

Anya was responsible, with a soul, for as much, if not more, death and destruction than Angel and Spike put together, and feels zero guilt over it whatsoever, while Willow willingly taps into a dark power source she knows she has no control over and which will only result in her hurting people. She then tries to end the world. Not only that, but she's using magic again the next season, with the very flimsy excuse of "it's part of her now" (which makes no sense at all).

Now those are double standards.

I totally agree. I never said or implied that the Spike/Angel situation was unique. It was just the one example that I decided to mention. Double standards abound in the Whedonverse. Does the fact that they are so commonplace make them any less wrong?