Was a Part of Fred Still Left?

[drtroy]

I'm currently watching the last episode..but I was just wondering..when Wesley was dieing..and she had turned..or gave the illusion that she was Fred..and had started to cry over him.. What I did not understand was..if she did not have any sort of feelings being a God..or if there was not any part of Fred left..then why did she still..or just have feelings for Wes? What I got out of it was..some part of Fred was just still left..her soul may have been completely gone..but yet she had her memories..

Which I guess are two completely different things..but I found this be really interesting..especially since she had mourned Wesley's death. Your thoughts?

 

[Wanabee-slayer]

I believe that there was just some small part of Fred in Illyria. I think it's why Wes was so protective of her. I think at the time he didn't realise it but I think deep down he knew that a part of Fred was still there.

p.s V.G wants me to say chick fights are the best!

 

[zombie.apparatus]

Yeah I do believe that there was a 'little' part of Fred in Illyria and Wesley new that as WS said deep down he knew.... and that's why Illyria had developed feelings for Wes...

 

[What happened to good TV?]

Well the fact that Fred is Illyrias 'shell' shows that a part of her still remains, erhaps their is still part of Freds 'soul' trapped in Illyria, but I dont know... Its been a while since seeing season 5. I vaguely remember them saying she was truly gone. Although Joss was planning to seperate fred and Illyria if my memories not failing me, so I supose they could both be trapped in the same body, but Illyrias overpowered her.

I think Wesleys feelings are purely for the fact that Illyria (at least kind) looks like fred.

I think seeing how the world had changed and Wesleys feelings for her, and the gangs attitude to beating the bad guys allowed Illyria herself (regardless if any of the emotion was Freds) to develop feelings herself. She cared for Wesley as he cared for her. She understood this and turned into Fred because she knew it would 'please' him in his dying moments and allow him to be truly at peace.

 

[drtroy]

Oh..I knew..and she really did mourn his dead, "I feel grief for him", I thought that was just amazing..Here she was an 'ol big bad..who hated humanity..and now she cared for someone..for something..she cared enough to want to die for what they all believed in..maybe I'm feeling all emo..but I thought that was beautiful and slightly heroic..that she was willing or attempted to change. Change ain't easy.

 

[eunsoma]

does anyone think that maybe Fred was truly gone, like they said?? I think so. I just think wes felt how he did for her because of the way she looked and she felt the same because she recognised his feelings. I think she was truly changing and growing to 'feel' like people.

 

[Carousel Girl8]

I think Fred was still partly there, Illyria was weak and I think the way she had to take on a humans body stopped her from being completely herself.
She obviously still had fred's memories like for instance when her parents come down for a visit.

 

[postmortem]

Her soul is said to be destroyed. That's what Illyria said. But there is a small chance that she was lying about it, I mean if she had said there is still part of Fred in the mix, the gang would try to bring her back and probably would have succeeded. Where would that put Illyria? Would she be destroyed? If yes, then I say, she had the motive to lie about Fred.

 

[eunsoma]

i'd like to agree but sorry i dont. Illyria didn't see any of the gang as a threat when she told them Fred had been destroyed, she didn't see herself as having anything to lose to a bunch of people she considered 'beneath' her.

 

[Wicked]

Her soul is said to be destroyed. That's what Illyria said. But there is a small chance that she was lying about it, I mean if she had said there is still part of Fred in the mix, the gang would try to bring her back and probably would have succeeded. Where would that put Illyria? Would she be destroyed? If yes, then I say, she had the motive to lie about Fred.

It wasnt Illyria. It was the doctor the Gunn made the deal with

DOCTOR
The sarcophagus contains the essence of an old one, a race of ancient
demons dead and buried for millions of years in a place called the
Deeper Well.
GUNN
Not hearing anything I don't already know.
DOCTOR
(stands)
Why do you think I'm telling you?
GUNN
(punches the doctor in the stomach)
How do we bring Fred back? How?!
DOCTOR
You can't.
GUNN
I don't believe that. You know a way. You have to.
DOCTOR
Get the sarcophagus released from customs in exchange for making your
cerebral alterations permanent. That was the bargain and the extent
of my involvement.
GUNN
Then take it back. Everything you put in my head, the law, all the
knowledge, take it back. Everything.
(crying)
Take more, leave me a vegetable. I don't care. Just bring her back.

(softly)
Please... bring her back.
DOCTOR
(shaking his head)
There's nothing left to bring back. Miss Burkle's soul was consumed
by the fires of resurrection. Everything she was is gone.
(Gunn lets him go)
Forever. For better or worse, you made a deal, Mr. Gunn. I suggest
you learn to live with it.

Doesnt mean he wasnt lying though. But I doubt it.

 

[andreamarie]

I didnt trust that dr and it's possible he did lie, I believe apart of fred was still there, its possible.

 

[drtroy]

Plus if you want to be technical about it can a soul ever really BE DESTROYED? I am sure it can be lost..but destroyed..doesn't seem likely..this is angel..so who knows.

 

[Wicked]

Good point. Maybe they could have brought Fred back like they brought Buffy back.

Which brings up another point. (may have been brought up already, I havent read the thread in a while.)

If there really was no part of Fred left, what does that mean? When people die in Buffy/Angel, they go to heaven/hell. Or somewhere as close as possible. What about Fred? Does she not get to go to heaven? Seems incredibly unfair. But if there was no part of her left, there would be no part to go there.

 

[Black Eye Guy]

Illyria also says the carcus is bound to her and she couldn't leave it if she wished to.

But I always thought there might have been a way, from this exchange between Drogyn and Illyria:

DROGYN
It is a test, a task of some sort. You must collect those crystals. And the fruit.

ILLYRIA
Why?

DROGYN
Old one... you have no right to walk this Earth. Your time is past. You belong to the well.

ILLYRIA
Truly. I wish now I had never been brought out of it.

DROGYN
Do you?

ILLYRIA
I don't know. I play this game... it's pointless and annoys me... and yet, I'm compelled to play on. Does that not"”

 

[kimbonka]

I'd like to this that a part of Fred was still in Illyria, but who knows really? It's just so sad. Even if Angel would have wanted to save Fred (despite the deaths of thousands of others) he still couldn't, he was just too late. Poor, poor Wes.

 

[drtroy]

Yes, it does not really make sense especially in angelverse that soul could be DESTROYED.. I could see lost somewhere..but couldn't willow have done a spell to locate it?

 

[eunsoma]

Now that I think of it, its ANGEL for god sake!! Fred can't be completely gone... In the world where everything is possible - nothing is impossible.

 

[Angel's vision]

Illyria must of had Fred's essence in her like her memories and desires ,that she sensed from her body, i also think Fred's soul had passed on to heaven or wherever in the Jossverse,a demon i feel does not have the ability to destroy the soul, maybe corrupt it like Cordy/Jasmine fiasco.

 

[Joamna]

Well, the thing about Freds death is that it was different than other deaths, her soul was destroyed when Illyria forced herself into her body.. That's what the gang learned when they tried to get Fred back in "Shells", that it was gone and destroyed forever, I mean they did try and find a way to bring her back but they came to this conclusion and understood that it was impossible..

 

[eunsoma]

even if they had of gone back in time and snatched her soul back before it was destroyed they could have saved her... okay that may be impossible but I'm sure WILLOW could do it lol..