Was a Part of Fred Still Left?

since I just finished up with season 5, I would like to add that yes, even tho most of you already know...yes a part of her is in there....she pretty much said that...that she had memories. And therefore she could feel....or if you will... 'see', see what Wes meant to Fred. She absolutely felt him, she changed..I really think Fred changed Illyria, made her feel more. I don't know how to explain it, but Fred was such a good person, and gets taken over by this not so nice God...and we know she couldn't get back to ruling over all, but she still could have went on a killing rampage or something...but she stayed, especially with Wes, cause Fred was in there...ahh hard to explain, but I reallllly want to watch some more Angel now. I wish they would make a Buffy/Bngel movie...all of them in it, would be great!
 
See, the way I saw it was Illyria was changing because she'd been around these people in this dimension so long. Its bound to have an affect.
She'd been used to being ruler and evil. Now she's stuck being one of Angels team, doing good things with people (at least person) she likes.

I didnt think it was because of Fred, just the circumstances.
 
Yes, but she was not really in that dimension too long, she did say she had her memories, so those must have influenced her to behave in that way.
 
She was there a few months. And she'd never been used to that kind of life before. It was bound to have some effect.
 
I keep watching the ending, and everytime I watch I feel less and less certain that it is Fred influencing Illyria. She just has memories, which mean a whole lot, but her feelings are her own. So are her choices, as said...Fred's soul was distroyed, so she is not left in there. So Illyria must have just grown to like them, be more human than not.
 
I don't think there was any part of Fred left. That was all just Illyria adjusting to her new lifestyle. It's really sad when you think about it.
 
Possibly Illyria's possession of Fred's body is similar to the human/demon thing with vampires. The memories remain, but the soul is lost. If we look at Illyria in that light, she would indeed have all of Fred's knowledge and experience, as well as a certain part of her feelings. That would also explain her ability to morph back and forth between Illyria's features and Fred's.Illyria's features are her "game face."

Another question that comes to mind is whether the Fred persona retains Illyria's powers. I tend to doubt it, since she returned to Illyria form before striking Wes' killer (whose name I keep forgetting). On the other hand, the change at that particular moment may have just been for dramatic effect.
 
Of course its 'Dramatic' effect. Vail has just told the 'Little Girl' to take her best shot, he doesn't realise who she is. We know that she isn't that.
Fred died, some of her memories, thoughts, emotions seemed to pass on to Illyria, probably why she was so eager to stay with Wesley, as he would have been so close to the surface of her mind when Fred died...as with her parents(thats why Illyria didn't want to see them hurt and upset either)...
 
white avenger said:
Possibly Illyria's possession of Fred's body is similar to the human/demon thing with vampires. The memories remain, but the soul is lost. If we look at Illyria in that light, she would indeed have all of Fred's knowledge and experience, as well as a certain part of her feelings. That would also explain her ability to morph back and forth between Illyria's features and Fred's.Illyria's features are her "game face."

Another question that comes to mind is whether the Fred persona retains Illyria's powers. I tend to doubt it, since she returned to Illyria form before striking Wes' killer (whose name I keep forgetting). On the other hand, the change at that particular moment may have just been for dramatic effect.
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But its not the same thing. We were told Freds soul was destroyed. As in cant be replaced. Vampires souls are just lost, but we know they can be replaced. Look at Angel and Spike.

If it was just like vampires, they could have got Willow to do her soul replacing spell and everything would be ok.
 
Wicked said:
But its not the same thing. We were told Freds soul was destroyed. As in cant be replaced. Vampires souls are just lost, but we know they can be replaced. Look at Angel and Spike.

If it was just like vampires, they could have got Willow to do her soul replacing spell and everything would be ok.
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(Sorry for the late reply...just got back home from my job on the hellmouth)

I never meant to imply that the relationship between Illyria and her Fred persona were the same as vampires, only that there was a similarity in the morphing from one to the other. Vampires drink blood. Illyria eats petrie dishes. Completely different.
 
No. Fred's soul was consumed in the fires of resurrection, there's no part of her entity that still exists in that or any other reality. It's sad to say but Fred was entirely gone. Illyria simply kept hold of thoughts, feelings, personality etc. from when Fred's brain collapsed. She accesses these attributes only when she deems fit or Wesley gives her permission.

I believe that Illyria gained some emotion and sympathy for those around her and the reality she was in. Yes, a small part of that was due to Fred's attributes "saved" in her brain but I think it was mainly through watching Wesley and Co. go through the grieving process and learning of their nobility that she became more humane towards the Season finale.
 
I don't know if I ever believed that her soul was destroyed, we got that information from a bad guy who was involved in wanting Illyria to return. It's a nice way to wrap up her character for plot reasons, so they could introduce Illyria, but I'm not convinced Fred is totally dead (well yes, she is dead 😛 but you can't destroy someones soul!)
 
kanga said:
I don't know if I ever believed that her soul was destroyed, we got that information from a bad guy who was involved in wanting Illyria to return. It's a nice way to wrap up her character for plot reasons, so they could introduce Illyria, but I'm not convinced Fred is totally dead (well yes, she is dead 😛 but you can't destroy someones soul!)
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Actually I don't think that information came entirely from just Knox. Wesley consulted his books on the subject and if I recall correctly came to the same conclusion. Fred's soul didn't leave her body, it was destroyed when Illyria hollowed out her body in what is referenced as "The fires of resurrection".

Fred is gone. That means there will be no afterlife for her, she'll just not exist. Illyria lies to Wesley in "Not Fade Away" by saying "You'll be with me soon". He won't. He'll never be with Fred again and she'll never exist and I find that extremely harsh and cruel. It's the perfect tragedy.
 
My take. Fred was absolutely still inside Illyria.

Think of it this way. The only evidence we have to assume that Fred's soul was really destroyed came from two people who were only interested in what was best for Illyria. They would say whatever it took to get Angel and his team to stop trying to save Fred.

Knox was hardly going to say "Well, if you carry out this ritual then you can force Illyria out of Fred and discover that she is still inside there, submerged under Illyria's personality. Go to it!", was he? Even the books that Wesley had at his disposal were likely biased as they would have been written by those with an interest in Illyria being reborn.

The main reason I tend to think Fred was still in there though was due to the storyline that we would have seen in season six of Angel. Willow was supposed to arrive and find a way to seperate the two beings, leaving Amy Acker playing two roles from there on. Not sure which of the writers let that slip (Fury, perhaps) but there is an interview somewhere that states it as fact (N4H might have it linked somewhere hopefully).

With that in mind I'd say that the writers absolutely intended for Fred's soul to survive.
 
A
alexa
yep, yep and yep :)
While I can both respect and understand your opinion I still have to disagree. It may have been the writers intent to have Fred's soul inside Illyria for a possible Season Six storyline but the fact is, it was never done. Therefore we can only judge the true outcome from the Season Five events and the only canon conclusion you can come to is that Fred's soul was destroyed.

That is until Joss or one of the other writers creates something to truly contradict this opinion.
 
The Master said:
Therefore we can only judge the true outcome from the Season Five events and the only canon conclusion you can come to is that Fred's soul was destroyed.

That is until Joss or one of the other writers creates something to truly contradict this opinion.
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Strictly speaking, the only absolute canon conclusion we can come to is that the bad guys all claimed that Fred's soul was destroyed. I'd say that there was enough evidence to oppose their claims, given just how much of Fred was now in Illyria.

The events of The Girl In Question made it obvious to me that we were dealing with much more than a few sparks of random memory inside Illyria's mind. She was able to mimic her entirely accurately, to the point where even Fred's parents were fooled. Even her attachment to Wes was far from what you would expect of a once powerful demon god. If all that was inside Illyria was memory than where did the emotion come from as she watched Wes die?

It would have been nice (obviously) to have had it all play out in season six as was intended but the knowledge of what was supposed to come added to all the clues that we were given in the latter part of season five is more than enough to convince me to not take the word of Knox and Doc Sparrow.
 
A
Angel's vision
I agree with you there, and on Willow comming to do the deed to seperate the tow would of put paid to my thoughts that Giles isn't such an ogre after all, possible it might be written in the comics me hoping!
yeah, i think fred's soul still exhisted somewhere. I don't remember Illyria herself never said she was destroyed, and presumably she'd know more than Knox and the other guy.
 
Arcane said:
The main reason I tend to think Fred was still in there though was due to the storyline that we would have seen in season six of Angel. Willow was supposed to arrive and find a way to seperate the two beings, leaving Amy Acker playing two roles from there on. Not sure which of the writers let that slip (Fury, perhaps) but there is an interview somewhere that states it as fact (N4H might have it linked somewhere hopefully).
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I read somewhere that in season six of ATS, Willow would join the mix (along with Oz) to rescue Fred by making Illyra and Fred two different bodily entities.
 
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