Okay..Obviously it was not the best decision that Buffy has made..She went with her heart not her brain. It was dangerous to hide Angel...But her emotions got in the way of her thinking clearly, which tends to happen A LOT. I sympathize with her when she did this...She was afraid of what her friends would think if she told them, though it does not entirely excuse her for putting everyone in danger. She was wrong, but it easy to forgive her..considering the hell she went through in the previous season.
Was Buffy wrong?
- Thread starter xfivebyfive
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They do think so but only because it's convenient for the plot for them to do so. Objectively speaking, their "logic" is terrible and their refusal to look for ways to completely remove the curse loophole is borderline suicidal.
Would that be the same friends who include the person who actually gave Angel back his soul? The idea that Willow, Xander and Giles would rush to kill Angel is quite hilarious considering that apart from (understandably) Giles in Passion they didn't try to do it when he was soulless for five months. And even if they were to try Angel was still stronger than them, so what's Buffy so afraid of anyway?
She was? Only luck prevents Faith from staking Angel before Buffy could come to his rescue (something that wouldn't have happened if Faith was told about Angel) and only the First's monumental stupidity prevents everyone from being slaughtered by Spike in S7. It's easy to be "proven" right when the writers will bail you out no matter what.
^ I agree that Buffy not telling them wasn't anything to do with being worried about what they would do to Angel, like trying to kill him. I think she kept it to herself so that she had time to process it for herself (it is a pretty monumental thing) and like I said above, I think she needed, given what had happened, to have something MORE to tell them about his return; to be sure Angel was okay etc.
That, or just sheer guilt/embarrassment. Whether or not she genuinely felt like she shouldn't be seeing him or helping him, I think she realised that it was an incredibly difficult situation that she couldn't face head on.
That, or just sheer guilt/embarrassment. Whether or not she genuinely felt like she shouldn't be seeing him or helping him, I think she realised that it was an incredibly difficult situation that she couldn't face head on.
prophecygrrl
The girl in question
I don't think they were really contradicting themselves. Everything was really new territory in the magic world. As far as they know, Angel was the only souled vampire ever, and then suddenly he lost his soul. I don't think they could have anticipated how things were going to go. I agree that the soul matters a lot, but the fact that Angel changes so abruptly once he loses and regains his soul does raise some questions about what the soul really is, I think. Is it just a muzzle, is it a conscience, does it make him human enough? Is he a man or a vampire? Those are questions that are brought up again and again all throughout BtVS Season 3 and AtS, so I don't think the Scoobies at that point could have reached a definitive conclusion about Angel and his soul. I understand why they feel betrayed. Also, throughout most of Season 2, they refer to Angel as 'Angel', not 'Angelus'. So again, at that point in time, I think they were still trying to figure out Angel vs. Angelus.
My apologizes. I take back what I said about trying to kill Xander, but what Angel did is still not okay. He was going to get Xander hurt. Without Xander knowing so. That's not a good thing in my book.
About Xander seeing things in black and white, I don't buy that. If it was the case, he'd have wanted Angel killed since S1 as well as cheer Kendra on when she suggested killing Angel, except he said, "Angel is our friend. Except I don't like him." He may not like Angel but that doesn't mean he wanted him killed. Xander is angry over the people Angel killed without a soul -as well as Angel's attempt to kill Xander and his friends without a soul. Angel -without a soul- murdered people and Xander is upset that the slate is clean, he probably didn't know by that point that Angel spent years in hell, but if he did I stand corrected.
Seeing things in black and white doesn't mean that Xander would want him dead. But his attitude to vampires is black and white in the sense that he can never, and will never, see past it to the point that the others can. He will never fully trust one and he will never call one his friend. And that's because on killed his best friend. I agree that he felt as if the slate had been wept clean and that it was Buffy who had helped to clean it, but that anger comes from the fact he struggles to the grey when it comes to vampires.
I also think that's a huge reason for Buffy waiting to tell them and truth be told, I don't think that was a mistake.
I also think that's a huge reason for Buffy waiting to tell them and truth be told, I don't think that was a mistake.
I think all characters see things in black and white in the high school years, not just Xander. Giles was the one who told Xander that Jesse was gone and the person taking over his body was the demon that killed him, which is false. Angel was the first gray area the Scoobies came across. But Xander disliked Angel before he knew he was a vampire, Angel was his rival when it came to Buffy and he was the one Buffy chose. And then there was the whole losing a soul thing and killing Jenny and other innocent people.
If Xander has a black and white view on vampires, he'd have been disgusted with vampire Buffy and vampire Willow. Not to mention, he wouldn't be thinking that him as a vampire would be cool.
As for Spike, Xander was willing to give him a second chance just like the rest of his friends. He even delivered him military clothes in S4.
I think it was a mistake because it blew up in her face. If she had told her friends the second Angel came back, Giles and Willow would have been more understanding. Giles' reasons for being angry in Revelation weren't because Angel was back, they were because Buffy didn't respect him enough to tell him about it. He and Willow had always been supportive, even though Angel killed Jenny. Their word has always overpowered Xander's as well. Also, Faith knowing about it would have been a wise choice, because then she'd get the details from Buffy and she wouldn't act irrationally.
It may be so that the others had the same views in high school, but that doesn't excuse Xander. And seriously, I'm not attacking him here. I've already said that I understand and appreciate why he sees things the way he does.
Maybe it's more the fact that his opinion of Angel and Spike is very black and white then, even though I don't think that his reaction to Vampire Buffy and Vampire Willow is enough to suggest that Xander thinks laterally when it comes to vampires.
But that once act of doing something relatively helpful for Spike does not negate the fact that Xander has and always will hate him and will never fully trust him. And that is because he will never fully accept that there is a grey area when it comes to vampires.
Hindsight is a wonderful thing. 😉
Given the fact Buffy didn't have any, the aftermath doesn't make it the mistake or not. If they hadn't have reacted as you've suggested they would have done, would it have still been wrong of her to lie to them?
Have you read S8? There is a certain development (that I personally found mind-blowingly stupid) that refutes your claim. Anyway, I find it impossible to blame Xander for something the writers hadn't even thought of yet. Before they had the "bright" idea to turn Spike into the great romantic hero, not trusting soulless vampires and thinking they are totally evil was the party line that every character followed. If he didn't trust Spike at least to be somewhat helpful, Xander woudl would have probably simply staked him at some point. Is it really black and white view to think that the guy who loudly proclaims all the time how much he would love to kill you given half a chance (and has tried to do just that many times in the past) might be up to no good?
Also, Xander is okay with Anya inviting a bunch of demons to his wedding, with Anya being ex-demon, with Clem, with Angel once his fears about the curse go away, etc. He thinks Angel going all out in "Reptile Boy" is really cool and that his vampiric doppelgänger in an alternate universe being very feared is cool too. Hardly the actions of someone who hates vampires for the sake of being vampires. He doesn't like Angel and Spike because they are mass murderers and tend to make Buffy miserable. If they happened to be humans and did the same things, I doubt he would have been all that fond of them either.
I don't think Xander is anymore black and white than his friends are. Buffy knew she could never love Spike while soulless. Willow is friendly but the second she knew Spike was in love with Buffy she freaked out and thought it was wrong. Same for Joyce.
Xander played pool with Spike, saved him on occasions, sympathized with him about Buffybot and let him off the hook after Spike betrayed them in S4. Xander was capable of being nice to Spike, but in the end, just like the others, he knew he couldn't trust a soulless vampire. He, Buffy and Willow were burned with Angel before. Tara and Dawn didn't experience that and that's why they were able to view Spike more open-mindedly.
And I don't think Xander hates Angel after S3, actually he started to accept Buffy/Angel in S3,
there's also that comment in S8 where Xander was surprised that Angel would do evil things as Twilight, but Xander already has a twisted friendship with a vampire by that time.
Giles and Willow were upset because she didn't tell them. If she had done, they'd be as supportive as they'd always been when it came to Angel. What's more than Angel killing Jenny? Giles still supported her then. It was the act of hiding it from him that made him feel small and unrespected.
Nope, I haven't read S8, but it doesn't make my opinon any less valid. I'm not entirely sure where I'm laying blame on Xander for something the writers hadn't thought of or if that's even directed at me, so I can't comment on that. Recognising Spike might be of some use does not equate to trusting him and you can still about things in a black and white way without acting on them. Especially when you're not in the position to make that call.
I'm well aware of the hypocrisy of Xander's feelings towards vampires, given his position on Anya which is why I've been careful to say vampires and not demons. And a couple of instances of him thinking some vampiric elements are cool does not the change the fact that he will never fully trust a vampire or consider one to be his friend and I stand firm that that is driven by his black and white opinion of vampires. I'm not budging because his whole overall attitude towards to them presides, as far as I'm concerned.
The point about the difference between Tara and Dawn and the other Scoobies and Spike is valid and makes complete sense. Although Joyce was at least relatively aware of the Angel situation. But I'm still not entirely convinced that Xander is only as black and white as his friends. Willow's relationship/friendship with Angel was completely different to Xander's which suggests to me, she's a little more open to the grey areas.
I get that, but it still doesn't change the fact that Buffy couldn't have known that, or been a 100% sure given all that Angelus had put them through. And like I said, if telling them straight off had resulted them in all blowing up at her and not understanding, would not telling them have been seen as the right thing to do?
But we're just going to end up going round in circles with this one and I'm going to respectfully agree to disagree because otherwise we'll be here all night! 🙂
How exactly is Xander not in a position to make that call? If he decided to kill Spike at any point between Pangs and Seeing Red, he could have, and Buffy never would have even known about it, let alone been upset about it. Sorry for not being fully clear about the writers changing rules half-way through - I meant that when Xander doesn't trust vampires, he only does what everyone else (except the idiotic cult of Lie to Me) do. Angel doesn't trust Harmony in Disharmony either and rightly so. He doesn't like Angel but this has a lot to do with the curse and with Angel being 200+ years older than Buffy. A very real issues which have nothing to do with "racism" or bigotry. In S6 he suspects that Willow is making people invisible - why not claim it's because he hates lesbians or witches or redheads? 🙂 In S7 he isn't too fond of Spike because Spike is, well, a jackass, and Buffy's obsession with him puts everyone in danger. It's not as if Xander hates people who are perfect and never harmed a fly just because they happen to have a more liquid diet and bumpy foreheads. I am willing to bet that if Willow becomes a vampire with a soul Xander would still be her friend.
I'd say he wasn't in the position to make the call in the sense that he essentially did what Buffy told him, lol. Because she didn't appear to want him dead or thought he was useful, Xander thought so too. That's what I meant, I think...😛
This post has made me understand your point a lot more, so thank you for clarifying 🙂. And you do make a very good point with the Willow situation. But then, I think it could still be argued the cases are slightly different but I don't want to get into that because then it looks like I'm reaching, and I don't like reaching! I'm willing to surrender that I've maybe not taken Xander's development through the show into account and kind of just stuck with the earlier seasons BUT I do think he saw things in a more black and white way than the others, overall.
Willow My Love
Scooby
You have to remember, she was what, 17, 18 here? We've all made mistakes at that age. And, by then, she had killed the love of her life. She had put a sword through his heart for the good of the world, instead of selfishly spending her last moments with him.
My theory always was that she didn't believe he was real. That she didn't believe he'd stay, or that she just thought she was dreaming. She wanted to be sure of him before she said anything.
How many of us kept big secrets from people at that age? I did. And the longer you wait to tell your loved ones, the harder it gets to form the words. I mean, what did we expect?
BUFFY: So guess what? Angel's back. He's not evil though.
WILLOW: Oh, that's cool. Hey, did you have my math notes? I kinda need the back.
I mean, really?
I know she was selfish here, but I think she was scared of a few things. Scared he wasn't actually real, scared that the group would try to kill him, scared that Giles would hate her for having anything to do with him, and scared the group would part ways just then. Plus, she had graduation, Faith, and the possibility of college on her plate at the same time.
My theory always was that she didn't believe he was real. That she didn't believe he'd stay, or that she just thought she was dreaming. She wanted to be sure of him before she said anything.
How many of us kept big secrets from people at that age? I did. And the longer you wait to tell your loved ones, the harder it gets to form the words. I mean, what did we expect?
BUFFY: So guess what? Angel's back. He's not evil though.
WILLOW: Oh, that's cool. Hey, did you have my math notes? I kinda need the back.
I mean, really?
I know she was selfish here, but I think she was scared of a few things. Scared he wasn't actually real, scared that the group would try to kill him, scared that Giles would hate her for having anything to do with him, and scared the group would part ways just then. Plus, she had graduation, Faith, and the possibility of college on her plate at the same time.