Was it naive to think Buffy was in hell?

[Enemies]

I find it very naive to assume that Buffy would be in Hell after all the hard work and good deeds she had done. Anyone feel the same?

I feel Willow was the one that pushed the other Scoobies into doing the resurrection as we see Xander having doubts. But then when they realise she was in heaven its suddenly made to seem that they were all 100% on board with the resurrection.

Why were they so convinced she was in Hell?

 

[Skytteflickan88]

I think it's bad writing that they just assumed it, but I can try to make sense of it.

Maybe they realized they had no idea where she ended up. Then they imagined the worst case scenario and they started to believe in it. I assume they found no way to find out where she was, or simply didn't take the time to do that, just tried to bring her back. Considering that Glory was trying to get into a Hell dimension, it could be taht they assumed that's where she went.

....

I never though of that before. Maybe they assumed the portal Glory opened only lead to Glory's dimension. Now I think it could have lead anywhere, Glory just needed to open a rip and decide where to go. But I need to re-watch season 5 to be sure how it was said. But now it makes sense, that the gang would go with the worst case scenario. Maybe the writers figured we'd believe that.

 

[Kean]

I think naive is a about the kindest label that could be attributed to the Scoobies and their decision to resurrect Buffy.

Reckless and willfully ignorant, would closer to the truth for me.

 

[white avenger]

I think that they were supposed to believe that Buffy's soul had been trapped in one of the hell dimensions that Dawn's blood was opening when she jumped. Or maybe they believed in hell, but not heaven, so wherever Buffy was had to be hell of some description or other. After all, both Angel and Buffy had been in hell dimensions before, and Glory was a hell god. If casting a spell to resurrect someone who's still buried is any indication of their research and preparation, I would say that they really didn't have a clue one way or the other.

 

[Icarium]

Nobody assumed Buffy was in hell for sure. It's just that this possibility wasn't a risk they were willing to take. The real problem is there were contrivances aplenty to make the story angsty enough - they can't check where Buffy is because...the plot said so. People can be pulled out of heaven? Heck, the very concept was heaven wasn't mentioned until after the resurrection. Not taking the body of the coffin made no sense either, there is no well neither of the four would have thought to do that, especially Willwo who is a very meticulous planner. A case of bad writing, IMO, but still I think bringing Buffy back was the right decision (as much I personally couldn't stand her in the last two seasons).

 

[ILLYRIAN]

It seemed to go from, 'I hope she isn't stuck in some hell dimension', to she is in hell.
And lets face it, if there was a graph for commonsense, I doubt that Willow's Tara's Xander's and Anya's combined score would have been noticable. Like what was just said, putting the coffin on the surface would have been a nice thing to do. Also as, a breathing person getting out of a coffin is impossible.
When lying in a coffin she'd only have 2 or 3 inches to throw a punch, so making a hole in the coffin could take 10 to 15 minutes. Then there's the several tons of earth to get through. She'd need to hold her breath for half an hour or more.
As for Buffy being in heaven, even she wasn't sure.

I think the over-riding concept, was when simply put, we want our friend back.

 

[Aloverssoulz]

I think they should have done something along the lines of what Angel done when looking for Cordy at the start of season 4. Ya know, just finding out where she was.

I think Willow just wanted her back no matter where she was. Willow didn't care. She was being selfish. I don't think it was bad writing because it's how Willow became in later seasons.

Or maybe she did think Buffy was in Hell and didn't know of a way of finding out. Personally even if there were a 5% chance that my friend might be in Hell, i'd drag his ass back to Earth.

 

[Hale Caesar]

I honestly believe it was bad writing. And bad writing is a theme that gets full explored in season 7...

 

[BuffyElevated]

I always thought that because of the things they saw coming out of the portal before Buffy jumped in, they assumed that she had been sucked into some sort of Hell dimension. Even though her physical body was left behind, I think some part of them thought "What if her soul was sucked into THAT?"

 

[PassionBecoming]

I don't know if naive is the word I would use, but they definitely didn't think it through. I think they just got caught on the aspect of getting their friend back, so they didn't want to think beyond "She must be in a hell dimension." They never even thought that because of the good things she had done and the sacrifice she made, she may have ended up in a wonderful place.

Willow went as far to admit it was pure selfishness in Tabula Rasa: "We didn't want to know. We were so selfish. I was so selfish."

 

[Skytteflickan88]

I don't know if naive is the word I would use, but they definitely didn't think it through. I think they just got caught on the aspect of getting their friend back, so they didn't want to think beyond "She must be in a hell dimension." They never even thought that because of the good things she had done and the sacrifice she made, she may have ended up in a wonderful place.

But why would they assume there was a force or God or whatever deciding where Buffy went? It seemed like a portal to Hell had opened, and that Buffy had gone through it. It's easy to assume that they assumed that Buffy had been sucked into a Hell dimension.

Willow went as far to admit it was pure selfishness in Tabula Rasa: "We didn't want to know. We were so selfish. I was so selfish."

I wonder if this meant they did try to find out, or didn't try hard enough or simply didn't try at all.

Kind of sucks that in a later Angel season they find that axe thingy. Makes you wonder "Why couldn't Willow find that? Right, the writers decided that."

 

[PassionBecoming]

But why would they assume there was a force or God or whatever deciding where Buffy went? It seemed like a portal to Hell had opened, and that Buffy had gone through it. It's easy to assume that they assumed that Buffy had been sucked into a Hell dimension.

Well, they have talked a couple of times how there are sooo many different dimensions, some good and some bad. So why automatically assume she went to a bad one? She didn't go into the dimension, she closed the portal. They were basing all of their knowledge on when Angel went to Hell, but he is the one who did the ritual and everyone was supposed to be sucked into Hell.

I wonder if this meant they did try to find out, or didn't try hard enough or simply didn't try at all.

I took it as they kept their blinders one because they wanted her back so badly they convinced themselves she was in a bad place.

 

[Icarium]

Well, they have talked a couple of times how there are sooo many different dimensions, some good and some bad. So why automatically assume she went to a bad one?

They didn't assume that:

Willow: Her body, yeah. But her soul ... her essence ... I mean, that could be somewhere else. She could be trapped, in-in some sort of hell dimension like Angel was. Suffering eternal torment, just because she saved us, and I'm not gonna let ... I'm not gonna leave her there. It's Buffy. (emphasis mine)

 

[Black Eye Guy]

I dont think it was naive, I think with everything they saw there was a high possibility her soul was being tortured.

But I think the biggest factor was that her soul could have been trapped in Glorys hell dimension, There was a high possibility of that, seeing as how she died in the doorway of a hell dimension.

I dont think it would have been as easy to find where she was, as it was with Cordy, as Cordy was physically moved, but I think they should have tried harder, I'm sure Willow could have found away

 

[Ripper666]

Well in fact it was... But I thought too that she was in hell untill she told that she wasn't. But that's the problem. The Scoobiee Gang and me included didn't thougth this thought to the end because we were totally searching for a solution to save Buffy.. But in the end it was logical for me that she could be in heaven or in hell... Which wasn't for the Gang...

 

[Willow My Love]

Honestly, I think it's because when Angel was sucked through a portal, he went to Hell. Buffy got sucked through a mystical portal too, ergo, she must be in Hell. Good deeds or not, Buffy was supernatural. I think that's another reason why they thought she didn't go to Heaven.

Besides, we're not always thinking clearly when it comes to grief.

I don't think it was naive to think she was in Hell, I think it was naive not to consider she may be in Heaven.

 

[Dagenspear]

I base this entire issue on Willow's selfishness and unwillingness to relinquish the power that would be required to successfully grieve. She didn't want to admit defeat. After all, if Giles had thought for a second that Buffy was trapped in a hell dimension, he most certainly would've acted immediately. But he didn't. And by that very fact, shouldn't that have told Willow something? But it didn't. Willow was willfully and selfishly ignorant in this area. If she'd read up, she could have easily discovered what she needed to know regarding Buffy's fate. But, once again, she didn't. Because she couldn't relinquish that kind of power or control to the idea that there's nothing she can do. So, like with everything else in that season, we see Willow taking the easy way out. Instead of allowing herself to grieve, she manipulates Tara and Xander, who jerks Anya onto the ride as well, into ressurecting Buffy, not because she knows Buffy's in a hell dimension or can't risk it, but because she can't relinquish the control that would be required for her to just let it go, to just let Buffy go. Willow didn't know Buffy was in heaven? Pfft... Willow didn't WANT to know.

This is a contributing factor to her becoming Dark Willow at the end of the season. When Tara dies, there's nothing she can do, she's failed, and she has to relinquish that kind of control, but she refuses to. That's the REAL reason why she goes crazy and seeks revenge.

---------- Post added at 08:26 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:22 AM ----------

Honestly, I think it's because when Angel was sucked through a portal, he went to Hell. Buffy got sucked through a mystical portal too, ergo, she must be in Hell. Good deeds or not, Buffy was supernatural. I think that's another reason why they thought she didn't go to Heaven.

Besides, we're not always thinking clearly when it comes to grief.

I don't think it was naive to think she was in Hell, I think it was naive not to consider she may be in Heaven.

Except Buffy wasn't sucked THROUGH the portal. Angel was gone. Buffy wasn't. She died. That's what happens in life. And that's something that Willow refused to accept. So she played God, where it wasn't her place.

 

[Skytteflickan88]

They didn't assume that:

Willow: Her body, yeah. But her soul ... her essence ... I mean, that could be somewhere else. She could be trapped, in-in some sort of hell dimension like Angel was. Suffering eternal torment, just because she saved us, and I'm not gonna let ... I'm not gonna leave her there. It's Buffy. (emphasis mine)

I seriously need to re-watch season 6 before I continue this discussion, because I didn't remember this at all.

 

[Willow My Love]

I base this entire issue on Willow's selfishness and unwillingness to relinquish the power that would be required to successfully grieve. She didn't want to admit defeat. After all, if Giles had thought for a second that Buffy was trapped in a hell dimension, he most certainly would've acted immediately. But he didn't. And by that very fact, shouldn't that have told Willow something? But it didn't. Willow was willfully and selfishly ignorant in this area. If she'd read up, she could have easily discovered what she needed to know regarding Buffy's fate. But, once again, she didn't. Because she couldn't relinquish that kind of power or control to the idea that there's nothing she can do. So, like with everything else in that season, we see Willow taking the easy way out. Instead of allowing herself to grieve, she manipulates Tara and Xander, who jerks Anya onto the ride as well, into ressurecting Buffy, not because she knows Buffy's in a hell dimension or can't risk it, but because she can't relinquish the control that would be required for her to just let it go, to just let Buffy go. Willow didn't know Buffy was in heaven? Pfft... Willow didn't WANT to know.

And no one else was on board at all? So, it was only Willow that wanted Buffy to come back, in your opinion? I don't think that's fair. Tara, Willow, Anya, and Xander all banded together to bring her back. Willow didn't force them into anything. They all decided they wanted her back, and the other three declared Willow the "boos" of them anyway.

This is a contributing factor to her becoming Dark Willow at the end of the season. When Tara dies, there's nothing she can do, she's failed, and she has to relinquish that kind of control, but she refuses to. That's the REAL reason why she goes crazy and seeks revenge.

And it has nothing to do with the fact that the love of her life was shot to death right in front of her? It's not only that she failed. It's that Warren forced Tara to die, and not ever be able to come back. That's where the revenge part comes in.

Except Buffy wasn't sucked THROUGH the portal. Angel was gone. Buffy wasn't. She died. That's what happens in life. And that's something that Willow refused to accept. So she played God, where it wasn't her place.

Her body wasn't, no. But her soul was. I don't believe they were incredibly stupid in thinking she could be in a hell dimension. She could have been in any dimension.

People do stupid things when they grieve. Everyone grieves differently. That's how it goes.

 

[FlowerPower]

After all, if Giles had thought for a second that Buffy was trapped in a hell dimension, he most certainly would've acted immediately. But he didn't. And by that very fact, shouldn't that have told Willow something?

Giles couldn't be bothered to stay in Sunnydale to help Buffy when she considered the world hell. Heck even without the benefit of hindsight, Giles couldn't be bothered to stay in Sunnydale to fight demons and be an adult guardian for Dawn while the much younger Scoobs stepped up. Giles was hardcore selfish in S6 and I can't take his lack of using powers that he doesn't have to bring back Buffy as the ultimate opposition to the team of Willow/Xander/Tara/Anya going through with the resurrection because they believed there was a legitimate chance that Buffy could be in hell.

I have tons of sympathy for Willow thinking that Buffy is in hell. I do think that her grief motivated her to not consider alternative possibilities of Buffy being in heaven. However considering that her method of getting a resurrection after Buffy being dead for three months was to count on her power and sacrifices to be impressive enough to successfully beg Osiris to bring Buffy back, it makes sense that Willow, maybe, wouldn't have had the ability to confirm what dimension Buffy was in. I know that people were hopping in and out of portals real easily on Angel but that doesn't seem to be the case on Buffy when it took a major production for even a hell goddess to get home.

I go with Icarium's notion that the strong risk that Buffy could be in hell motivated the Scoobs into fast action, particularly since their experience with hell dimensions tells them that time moves more quickly there. If the Scoobies were "naive", it was their belief that Buffy would want to choose life. I think that Willow and the others did whitewash Buffy's suicide in The Gift into The Most Perfectest Sacrifice and ignored the idea that maybe Buffy was fed up with life.