Was Spike A Good Man?

[white avenger]

By Season 7, had the soulless monster evolved into a man who sincerely wanted to be what Buffy saw him as being, someone who risked everything to actually become a better man? This isn't an analysis or judgement of why he would want to do such a thing, merely, do you actually believe that he was really trying to be a better man, regardless of his purposes in doing so.

 

[Robb Stark]

By S7, yes, he absolutely was.

I think that the soul changed everything for Spike (even if he retained some of the character traits, like his humour, which made him a great character to begin with). I'm a big believer in the vampire with the soul being very different than the vampire without a soul. Angel says as much in S3 when he's talking with Faith, that he "didn't have a choice" when he lost his soul.

I think that he was truly in love with Buffy, but by S7 he wasn't just acting out of self-interest anymore. In S5 and S6, when he would help out the Scoobies, I always got the sense that the only reason he did so was because he was trying to get Buffy, not because of any real altruism. We see that through a lot of S6, when he torments and manipulates Buffy to try and convince her that she belongs in the dark with him. I think after what happened in the bathroom towards the end of S6 he, for the first time, saw that he wasn't in any way worthy of Buffy. He chose to chase down his soul to become that, but when he actually got it, the self-interest went away.

By S7 though, I think that's gone. Love might always be his driving motivation, but I don't think it's the only one anymore. We see that very plainly in S5 of Angel, when Spike is clearly a hero, and Buffy isn't even the picture for him anymore. He does what he does, helps Angel and the rest of the team, because it's the right thing to do, and because he can. Pre-S7 Spike would never have done that.

I believe Spike is a good man. By the end of "Not Fade Away", I think of him as one of my favourite, and the best, heroes I know of.

 

[Kendra371]

Yes!

I have to say that my opinion has nothing to do with Spike gaining his soul. Spike, was a very unique character, who let love get the best of him. It was a unique trait for a soulless demon to have. We've seen him get heartbroken by Drusilla, to the point where he went to Willow to do a love spell on her. Now for a soulless being, it would be easy to classify that as an obsession, or over indulged lust. Especially with what he did in season 6 with Buffy.

But with all that aside, theres more points that make soulless Spike even outshine Angel IMO. In season 6, even knowing his chip no longer worked in regards to attacking Buffy, he was able to refrain any normal demonic hatred toward her. He never tried to kill her even knowing the opportunity to get payback was there. Especially for Buffy's mistreatment of him at that point and time. For someone without a soul, to care enough to keep his word to protect Dawn after Buffy's death, which he did, was something of a big deal. For a soulless demon to care enough to protect a secret just for the love of a woman was also a big deal. A demon shouldn't even be consciously aware or caring for the welfare of others. But he did. And that in my eyes makes him an amazing man. Was he perfect? Hell no, but he'd proven himself more than enough that he'd fought the demon within himself to make himself better. He sought out his soul as opposed to Angel who was cursed with it.

 

[EVIL UU]

No, to become a good man you first need to be a man. Spike is not a man, he's a vampire and soul doesn't change that. Allow me to quote that other vampire with a soul:

I can walk like a man, but I'm not one.

Hundred or so years with a soul, I think he knows what he's talking about.

 

[Faith717132]

Yeah!

Yeah! he was a good man.

 

[Jod]

Actions speak louder than words, and because of this i think Spike was a good man. It doesnt matter that he had a chip because even when he didnt have the chip he actually didnt kill any of the shows main characters unlike Angelus (yet spike gets a bad name all the time). When he has the chip he doesnt have to help the scoobies but he does - it doesnt matter for what reason the point is he does help.

Throughout the show he helps the scoobies, he changes and becomes more caring and eventually saves the world - to me thats a pretty decent guy 🙂

 

[ladydorotea]

Honestly, I like the Clockwork Orange plot way better in its original execution, without the whipped cream of extra melodrama on top. Was Alex a better man after months of conditioning and behavior modification ? Probably. In a sense that he was much less of a danger to the people around him. Was he truly a 'better man' on the inside though - I suspect the answer is not so clear. For me , the same goes for Spike S4-S6. Being soulless makes him not seeing the 'perspective' of morality or lack of thereof , so to speak. As such he is capable of both hiring Warren to build him the sex bot of the 'woman he loves' and frakking it, and at the same time of keeping mum about Dawn to Glory; of kidnapping Buffy and threatening to stake Drusilla ( his supposed 'other great love') and of actually crying bitter vampire tears when Buffy jumps to her death. Of reminiscing about 'biting all the harder' on the helpless homeless man and of telling stories to Dawn while she is staying in his crypt. Later, in S6 Spike's 'swing states' become even more bizarre - as if he is honestly trying to behave 'like a man' and a man 'in love' to boot - and at the same time lacking the perspective on what it means. As such, the only 'control' experiment of soulless Spike not completely controlled by his behavior modification chip post S4 we have is the episode in S6 when he assumes his chip is misfiring. And the first thing he attempts to do is... biting a human. So, no, I don't see Spike becoming a 'better man' or even remotely a 'man' until he gets his soul. And I want to avoid another discussion on the topic of 'he fought for his soul', because the basic principle of 'free will' was compromised in his whole story. So, shoving a behavior modification chip into a serial killer's head and then claiming - see this made the dude a hero - is not a story I find particularly inspiring. Yet it is interesting in a darkish, disturbing way.

But, if we look at the post-souled Spike, then yes, he started to show significant changes in his behavior 'after' his chip was removed. I still find his behavior with Robin Wood appalling and egotistic. I still find his presumption that Buffy somehow 'deserves him' selfish and gross, I still find him whiny, clingy and not at all likeable in all of Buffy post S4 seasons - until he shows up in AtS S5 and starts to act somewhat like a petulant sibling, but at the very least his own man. But yes, by the end of AtS - and especially post 'Damage' Spike becomes a character I am once again interested in - a remarkably less self-involved and more likeable character that has great potential and definitely a 'better man'.

 

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

By Season 7, had the soulless monster evolved into a man who sincerely wanted to be what Buffy saw him as being, someone who risked everything to actually become a better man? This isn't an analysis or judgement of why he would want to do such a thing, merely, do you actually believe that he was really trying to be a better man, regardless of his purposes in doing so.

Yes, I do. His actions proved so. After he got his soul, his entire demeanor changed: he become more sensitive, selfless, and supportive. He became the man she deserved.

 

[whitewolf]

No, to become a good man you first need to be a man. Spike is not a man, he's a vampire and soul doesn't change that. Allow me to quote that other vampire with a soul:



Hundred or so years with a soul, I think he knows what he's talking about.

I'd be more inclined to take Angel's opinion as fact if he wasn't the most guilt ridden melodramatic character on the show. When he says things like this it's really hard to tell whether it's an accurate statement of his condition or just his broody guilt ridden nature talking. When it comes to issues of his humanity or lack thereof I always take Angel's statements with a grain of salt. He has far too much baggage to be objective.

 

[white avenger]

"I can walk like a man, but I'm not one." This is Angel's assessment of himself, and if he chooses to look at it that way, he's free to do so.

"You risked everything to become a better MAN, Spike, and you can be. You are. You may not see it but I do. I do." This is Buffy's assessment of the vampire in question, and I'm inclined to take her word for it.

 

[EVIL UU]

[MENTION=12094]whitewolf[/MENTION] [MENTION=6758]white avenger[/MENTION]

My point still stands. Spike's not a human being, soulless or not, he's still a demon reanimating a corpse. He looks like a man, he talks like a man but he's not a man, he's very much like Buffy-bot, a fantasy, an illusion.

Isn't that the message of the show? You can't love an illusion. That's the real reason Buffy suffers, she chases phantoms, falls for illusions, be it Angel, Spike or Dawn. Because love is very much brains, it's what keeps you from getting into abusive relationships and self-destruction, what stops you from brainwashing, raping and stalking 15 year old girls. "BtVS" is not "Twilight" for Tara's sake, it ridicules the very concept of idealized paperback chick-lit derived vampire erotica bullshit romance.

Spike is not meant to be a man, everybody who tries to humanize him misses the point. Uh, you know what happens when Spike becomes a good man? A lame-ass Billy Idol cosplayer/wannabe and a copy of Xander happens. Do you really want that?

 

[Kendra371]

[MENTION=12094]whitewolf[/MENTION] [MENTION=6758]white avenger[/MENTION]

My point still stands. Spike's not a human being, soulless or not, he's still a demon reanimating a corpse. He looks like a man, he talks like a man but he's not a man, he's very much like Buffy-bot, a fantasy, an illusion.

Isn't that the message of the show? You can't love an illusion. That's the real reason Buffy suffers, she chases phantoms, falls for illusions, be it Angel, Spike or Dawn. Because love is very much brains, it's what keeps you from getting into abusive relationships and self-destruction, what stops you from brainwashing, raping and stalking 15 year old girls. "BtVS" is not "Twilight" for Tara's sake, it ridicules the very concept of idealized paperback chick-lit derived vampire erotica bullshit romance.

Spike is not meant to be a man, everybody who tries to humanize him misses the point. Uh, you know what happens when Spike becomes a good man? A lame-ass Billy Idol cosplayer/wannabe and a copy of Xander happens. Do you really want that?

Thats the fault of the writers then. Spike was always a soulless being, but even in the early Buffy years Spike has displayed pretty much basic fundamentals of a "human being." a soulless creature with no soul shouldn't be so emotional over a breakup (Drusilla) a soulless evil vampire shouldn't have it within himself to refrain his anger and hatred of the slayer after his chip stops working. He never should've been able to even care about keeping Dawn's secret. A vampire should relish in the thought of hell being released onto earth (Glory opening the portal) but he was the polar opposite.
When you look at Spike and Angel, before being souled, they were always polar opposite. Angelus displayed the true nature of what a vampire was, along with Darla and Drusilla, Spike was to over emotionalized and I think thats the problem. He became a vampire and still cared for his mother? That shouldn't even be possible. Then he cried after staking his own mother? It doesn't make sense. Angelus killed his own family and could've cared less. I think this is where things get questionable in regards to Spike. "They" made him to humanized even prior being en-souled.

 

[Black Eye Guy]

By season 7, no. He was still entirely self centred, thinking he was doing right to get a girl, he wasn't doing good for good, he was doing good so he could hold it up in front of her and beg her to love him.

By his very last Moments in Chosen? Yes, he'd finally realised how to do good to be good, not to use it as a way to make someone love you.

 

[SlayerFest]

I still find him whiny, clingy and not at all likeable in all of Buffy post S4 seasons - until he shows up in AtS S5 and starts to act somewhat like a petulant sibling, but at the very least his own man. But yes, by the end of AtS - and especially post 'Damage' Spike becomes a character I am once again interested in - a remarkably less self-involved and more likeable character that has great potential and definitely a 'better man'.

I love Spike, I mean he's one of my favorite characters but...yes. I totally agree with this. He's so great on AtS. So much better than he ever was on Buffy. I mean I actually loved him in S4 (I know a lot of people found him unnecessary) but he was always just great comic relief. I didn't really take him seriously as a character until some parts of S7 of BtVS and S5 of Angel.

---------- Post added at 11:54 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:50 AM ----------

[MENTION=12094]whitewolf[/MENTION] [MENTION=6758]white avenger[/MENTION]

My point still stands. Spike's not a human being, soulless or not, he's still a demon reanimating a corpse. He looks like a man, he talks like a man but he's not a man, he's very much like Buffy-bot, a fantasy, an illusion.

Then what is he? A demon. So he's a good demon then...no? Or are you saying that you have to be a human to be considered good? Or are you just arguing that Spike shouldn't be called a "man" because he isn't a human? You're right, he technically is not a human being, but I feel as if Buffy calling him a "good man" is just supposed to show that he has done good things. When Spike "dies" to save them all, that was a good thing. That's something a good "person" or vampire would do. I mean technically he is a man...he's just not a human one. It's just semantics imo. I apologize if that didn't make any sense whatsoever...haha

 

[Robb Stark]

No, to become a good man you first need to be a man. Spike is not a man, he's a vampire and soul doesn't change that. Allow me to quote that other vampire with a soul:



Hundred or so years with a soul, I think he knows what he's talking about.

Well, sure, but at the same time, in the episode "Amends" in S3 he says to Buffy: "Am I worth saving? Am I a righteous man?"

I think Angel feels different from regular people, which obviously makes sense, but semantics aside, he acts like a man from start to finish.

 

[Kendra371]

By season 7, no. He was still entirely self centred, thinking he was doing right to get a girl, he wasn't doing good for good, he was doing good so he could hold it up in front of her and beg her to love him.

By his very last Moments in Chosen? Yes, he'd finally realised how to do good to be good, not to use it as a way to make someone love you.

I used to feel the exact same way in regards to Spike and your comment is damn near perfect. As a matter of fact, I even thought he was a lot more selfish than what people saw. Especially in season 6, every time Buffy would try to talk to him the only thing he ever wanted to do was have sex. I always viewed him as a sicko and my views were backed up when he tried to rape her. But upon viewing the show over and over again, seeing how his character was from the very beginning, including flashbacks, Spike was a very unique demon. Displaying human emotion and a sense of caring here and there which never should've happened to begin with. This was even before he loved Buffy. He had the love of his mom, even soulless. Still evil of course. But I think Spike was someone who had this internal struggle with the demon inside. Its weird.

My problem though, was how a soul automatically = a good person. People with a soul can still be bad and do horrible things.

Also, we know that vampires do and could have humanized qualities. I think it was "Judgement Day?" where Spike and Dru release the judge and the judge was able to kill a vampire because he still had humanity in him? (The vampire showed signs of emotion. He was afraid. So I guess for a vampire to show any kind of emotions whether its fear, sadness, remorse, its considered human) But that doesn't make sense IMO

 

[white avenger]

I love Spike, I mean he's one of my favorite characters but...yes. I totally agree with this. He's so great on AtS. So much better than he ever was on Buffy. I mean I actually loved him in S4 (I know a lot of people found him unnecessary) but he was always just great comic relief. I didn't really take him seriously as a character until some parts of S7 of BtVS and S5 of Angel.

This is something that Spike and Angel have in common. Buffy makes them heroes, but they are always pretty much her sidekicks until they finally manage to leave town and come into their own. Or maybe it would sound better saying that Buffy INSPIRED both men to become heroes, but they had to go out on their own before they fully realized their potential.

 

[Robb Stark]

This is something that Spike and Angel have in common. Buffy makes them heroes, but they are always pretty much her sidekicks until they finally manage to leave town and come into their own. Or maybe it would sound better saying that Buffy INSPIRED both men to become heroes, but they had to go out on their own before they fully realized their potential.

I like this way of thinking. I don't really think of Angel or Spike as Buffy's "sidekicks", but I do fully agree that she really inspired them both to be better people. Angel's entire mission on his own series is pretty much inspired by Buffy and what she says to him in "Amends", and there's no question that Spike becomes a better hero after what he and Buffy went through together in S7.

I think that Spike (and Angel) is a good man, but Buffy made him a great one.

 

[whitewolf]

In Spike's own words. "I'm a bad poet, but a good man."

 

[white avenger]

I don't really think of Angel or Spike as Buffy's "sidekicks",

Maybe sidekicks isn't totally accurate in the cases of Angel and Spike, but in both cases, as long as they remained in Sunnydale, they were pretty much always "the other hero," which is, of course, logical, since it's her show. My point is, neither man truly reached his full potential until he got out of Buffy's shadow.