Watchers Council and Potential Training

[NoShip]

Because, in the tropes of superheroics, you don't get to say no to destiny. With great power comes great responsibility. Buffy certainly didn't, that was the whole point of both the movie and season 1.

You are absolutely correct.

However, Tropes are tools used to very quickly communicate common but complicated ideas.

So, if the standard superhero tropes work for your story, you should use them.

If they don't work for your story, ignore them.

One of my favorite series is THE BOYS which does an awesome job of subverting (or proving - depending on one's point of view) every superhero trope in existance.

Buffy's story is so messed up that I don't think the normal superhero tropes could really apply. Plus, Whedon was so totally into subverting everything possible that I think he often wrote Buffy to counter the superhero tropes.

On the consent issue:
1. It is a serious issue, in general.
2. I don't believe it mattered here.

Why?

None of the New Slayers were required to fight. The Potentials at Buffy's house were given a choice. The other Potentials were given superpowers.

Problematic? Absolutely. As @AlphaFoxtrot notes, Dana is a result.

Wrong? That depends on the girl and what she does with her new superpowers.

Unfair? Again, depends on the girl and what she does with her new superpowers.

I would hope that as Buffy and Giles rebuilt the Council, the focus would be on what was best for the Slayers as well as fighting the forces of darkness.

 

[famicommander]

Slayers are designed to fight and kill. It is a fundamental part of their makeup. It is what they were created to do. It is essentially impossible for them to go on with a normal life now. And Buffy did not give them any choice at all. She decided for them without asking.

All of that was already part of the makeup of these girls before they were activated. The episode where Dawn thinks she's a Potential shows this clearly, with Amanda being able to tap into her heritage and save the day despite being even less experienced than Dawn and not yet being activated as a Slayer.

Buffy didn't make them Potentials. That process was far out of her control, set into motion thousands of years before she was born. All she did was flip a switch that changed them from powerless to powerful. What they choose to do or don't choose to do with that power is still up to them.

Again, the Bringers showed in the beginning of the season that they have the means to locate these girls with or without their powers. So at least they have a fighting chance after Buffy activates them, in the event that their Slayer heritage somehow paints a target on their backs.

 

[Cohen]

Again, the Bringers showed in the beginning of the season that they have the means to locate these girls with or without their powers. So at least they have a fighting chance after Buffy activates them, in the event that their Slayer heritage somehow paints a target on their backs.

But I thought Beljoxa’s Eye (sp?) said that it was Buffy’s resurrection and re-insertion into the slayer line (essentially splitting it) that made the line vulnerable, which is why the First was able to tap in and find potentials? Without that magical intervention by Willow and the Scoobs, they never would have been vulnerable to attack. Otherwise, why wouldn’t the First have eradicated the slayer line millennia ago?

So, essentially, Willow placed them in danger because she believed she was being Buffy’s savior from hell, and Buffy thrust destiny upon them without their approval (outside of Sunnydale). Again, it’s a through-line of Angel season 5 and the comics, so Joss even thought about the problematic nature of activating all the potentials rather quickly after that decision was made. Again, I assert that they should have tailored the spell one of two ways: only to the potentials within a certain radius of the spell, or (like introduced in Charmed S4) a choice clause, where slayers had a 48 hour window to accept their destiny.

 

[AlphaFoxtrot]

1. Evil has no shortage of slaves.
2. Yeah, Willow's actions in resurrecting Buffy using magic violated some cosmic deal between Good and Evil, allowing the First to eliminate the Slayer line. We weren't really given the details. If someone wants to write a Fanfic claiming it was due to the Halliwell sisters going to war against the Lenox coven, I would probably read it.

 

[NoShip]

Well..... "Destiny" (read: Adulthood) gets thrust upon all of us at some point. None of us gets a choice. And, none of us gets superpowers as part of the package.

None of the Potentials turned into slayers were required to fight evil or the forces of darkness. These were girls who suddenly had the strength and confidence to stand up to whatever or whoever was oppressing them. Nothing more.

So, I think Buffy-Willow did the right thing for everyone, even the ones who recieved no formal "choice".

 

[Cohen]

Well..... "Destiny" (read: Adulthood) gets thrust upon all of us at some point. None of us gets a choice. And, none of us gets superpowers as part of the package.

Not quite the same. Especially when the show explained 7 years of trials because Buffy was “Chosen”. How she couldn’t have a normal life. How she wouldn’t even be able to bat an eye and allow someone else to take up the mantle, because inherently she knew evil was there and she had the power to stop it. But she was never given the choice.

And then to pair that with the revelation that it was 3 “wise men” that thrust the power of a demon into the Sineya, and into the thousands of future slayers after her, just a few episodes prior before she basically does the same thing. It’s problematic.

None of the Potentials turned into slayers were required to fight evil or the forces of darkness. These were girls who suddenly had the strength and confidence to stand up to whatever or whoever was oppressing them. Nothing more.

So, I think Buffy-Willow did the right thing for everyone, even the ones who recieved no formal "choice".

Initially I agreed, however, in hindsight the plan was problematic. The writers also clearly had the same issue, because there were multiple storylines written due to it. From a storytelling perspective, it was great because it gave new life into the Buffyverse. But from a moral standpoint, it’s problematic.

I do acknowledge that Buffy and Giles’ version of “the council” was exceedingly better than the structure of the patriarchal system that was in place before the bringers literally blew it up

 

[NoShip]

Not quite the same. Especially when the show explained 7 years of trials because Buffy was “Chosen”. How she couldn’t have a normal life. How she wouldn’t even be able to bat an eye and allow someone else to take up the mantle, because inherently she knew evil was there and she had the power to stop it. But she was never given the choice.

Yes and No. It isn't quite the same because Buffy is The Chosen "ONE" while we are one amoung billions who have had adulthood thrust upon them.

Once the Slayer Power is expanded to all potentials, Buffy is no longer alone and most of the issues go away because now Buffy and every other Slayer has someone equally effective to take over when she wants to take a break.

And then to pair that with the revelation that it was 3 “wise men” that thrust the power of a demon into the Sineya, and into the thousands of future slayers after her, just a few episodes prior before she basically does the same thing. It’s problematic.

I don't think it is problematic.

The Potentials in the absolute worst circumstances were the ones just living their lives. The result of the spell was that they were now superpowered and could protect themselves. As Slayers, the Devon Coven could find them and direct Buffy and Giles to help them.

I agree that Buffy was totally screwed. But that was because she was alone. NONE of the new slayers are alone. There are a bunch of other Slayers to help them.

Initially I agreed, however, in hindsight the plan was problematic. The writers also clearly had the same issue, because there were multiple storylines written due to it. From a storytelling perspective, it was great because it gave new life into the Buffyverse. But from a moral standpoint, it’s problematic.

I think that in anything one is going to risk a bad outcome. Nothing is perfect. But, to damn the entire mass creation of new slayers because of a bad outcome is a terrible idea. Dana needed to be taken care of, not abandoned. But I have seen nothing that tells me that Willow's spell was immoral or unethical or just wrong.

 

[Cohen]

The Potentials in the absolute worst circumstances were the ones just living their lives.

*some of them

Based on both the glimpses of potentials awakening in Chosen, and the “hundreds” that were discussed in the comics, which Joss wrote as canon, most of them were normal, everyday people that got power thrust upon them that they didn’t ask for.

I agree that Buffy was totally screwed. But that was because she was alone. NONE of the new slayers are alone. There are a bunch of other Slayers to help them.

Except many of them were activated alone at first. And had many bad experiences because they didn’t know what was going on. By the comics, they formed an organization, and if found, given a choice to join or not. But until then, thrown into danger without knowing it. Also, even if they choose “yes” many of them were killed very quickly into becoming a Slayer. Had Buffy and Willow not made that decision, they would have led completely normal lies. Therein lies the problem.

They had a whole trajectory of life until Willow, again, meddled with magic without thinking about the consequences. Which is why I say, again, the best case scenario would have been to activate the potentials in a given radius, to solve the problem at hand. They did not need every girl who could have the power to have the power. It was written that way to have an “empowering” ending. She told the potentials in Sunnydale “Here’s the part where you make a choice”. However, none of the potentials outside of Sunnydale were given that choice. Which is why the spell as made in the finale was problematic.

I think that in anything one is going to risk a bad outcome. Nothing is perfect. But, to damn the entire mass creation of new slayers because of a bad outcome is a terrible idea. Dana needed to be taken care of, not abandoned. But I have seen nothing that tells me that Willow's spell was immoral or unethical or just wrong.

It wasn’t just Dana. There is a whole storyline in the comics that shows that MANY Potentials had terrible experiences post activation. Which was also written by Joss as canon. For all the faults of season 8, seasons 9-11 were actually really good storylines commenting on the consequences of using magic to solve all the problems.

 

[NoShip]

It wasn’t just Dana. There is a whole storyline in the comics that shows that MANY Potentials had terrible experiences post activation. Which was also written by Joss as canon. For all the faults of season 8, seasons 9-11 were actually really good storylines commenting on the consequences of using magic to solve all the problems.

I started reading the comics and they were so laughably bad that I stopped.
I don't care what Whedon says is canon. I care what he shows on TV.

Commenting on the consequences of using magic to solve all the problems is a pretty broad topic. Not sure how to respond.

Except many of them were activated alone at first. And had many bad experiences because they didn’t know what was going on. By the comics, they formed an organization, and if found, given a choice to join or not. But until then, thrown into danger without knowing it. Also, even if they choose “yes” many of them were killed very quickly into becoming a Slayer. Had Buffy and Willow not made that decision, they would have led completely normal lies. Therein lies the problem.

No one can predict what will happen tomorrow. Any of us may die at any time for any reason. Any of us may win the lottery. How is getting the Slayer with superpowers package worse than your parent-child-spouse getting badly hurt? Or winning an important prize? Same level of stress. Same level of permanence.

Just out of curiosity..... What is a completely normal life? I ask because
I don't know anyone who has a completely normal life.

I think the Slayer Package is pretry well ballanced and as decent a deal as one is likely to get on this plane of existence.

Post automatically merged: Sep 9, 2025

Based on both the glimpses of potentials awakening in Chosen, and the “hundreds” that were discussed in the comics, which Joss wrote as canon, most of them were normal, everyday people that got power thrust upon them that they didn’t ask for.

Alot of normal, everyday people get alot of things thrust upon them that they didn't ask for.

The Slayer Package seems pretty balanced so it seems alot better deal than most.

 

[Cohen]

@NoShip

The difference from EVERYTHING you mentioned is that Willow and Buffy are the ones who did this. It wasn’t life. It wasn’t “fate”. Willow messed with the line, again, to make all potentials into slayers. To “win” a battle where it wasn’t even their power that helped save the day. It was literally a last minute plot device that saved the day.

Whether or not you consider comics canon is a moot point, as both the tv show and the comics say the same thing. What Willow did was problematic. It was a last minute decision to turn the tables, and had severe consequences. There’s a through-line of using magic to solve problems has dire consequences throughout the entire show. And this time, Willow’s intervention with magic literally cost girls their lives.

Regardless, this has diverged way off topic, and there are other threads to discuss this, should you want to further.

 

[NoShip]

The difference from EVERYTHING you mentioned is that Willow and Buffy are the ones who did this. It wasn’t life. It wasn’t “fate”. Willow messed with the line, again, to make all potentials into slayers. To “win” a battle where it wasn’t even their power that helped save the day. It was literally a last minute plot device that saved the day.

You are missing my point.

I am comparing Willows Slayer Spell to the great or terrible things that happen to each and every one of us without being given a choice. How we respond determines how we go forward, and, we also don't get a choice to go forward or not.

I do agree that is was a last minute plot device to save the day. I also agree that we have gnawed this bone enough.

Cheers. 😀

 

[garfan]

But I thought Beljoxa’s Eye (sp?) said that it was Buffy’s resurrection and re-insertion into the slayer line (essentially splitting it) that made the line vulnerable, which is why the First was able to tap in and find potentials? Without that magical intervention by Willow and the Scoobs, they never would have been vulnerable to attack. Otherwise, why wouldn’t the First have eradicated the slayer line millennia ago?

it says that but it doesn't give more detail. I remember some writers talking about how in season 7 both Buffy and Faith had to die for a new Slayer to be called. That never made it to the show but if that was the case that means that attacking a potential suddenly no longer has the risk of this girl suddenly being called as a Slayer. Plus I would say that it's ability to empower Caleb was a key thing

And in a normal situation anyone of those girls that were empowered could have become the one girl in all the world at anytime. Now they have backup. They aren't the one girl

 

[Cohen]

it says that but it doesn't give more detail. I remember some writers talking about how in season 7 both Buffy and Faith had to die for a new Slayer to be called. That never made it to the show but if that was the case that means that attacking a potential suddenly no longer has the risk of this girl suddenly being called as a Slayer. Plus I would say that it's ability to empower Caleb was a key thing

Dawn says in Potential that she would only have the power if Buffy died, so I don’t think so. But to be fair it was never fleshed out. Joss definitively stated no Slayer was called in season 5’s finale, but the way this was written in 7 made it seem like Buffy’s resurrection split the line off. Or I may be misinterpreting.

And in a normal situation anyone of those girls that were empowered could have become the one girl in all the world at anytime. Now they have backup. They aren't the one girl

But any one is still not all. One girl would have been their destiny due to the spell from a millennia ago. This one was Willow manipulating with magic (again). But as @NoShip said we’ve kind of butchered this point to death. lol

 

[Plasma]

I’m going to write a potentially more insidious theory.

It begs the question… if there was a Watchers Academy to train future Watchers.. why wasn’t there ever a similar Potentials Academy, to train future slayers? Surely it would make more sense logistically to house Potentials in one location, and utilizing former uncalled top potentials as trainers for the girls.

I think that a possible answer, given the evidence we see in the show, is that the Watchers sort of “prey” on the bewilderment and confusion about a new Slayer’s abilities. If you train them from birth and make them really feel confident and everything, there is a risk that they realize they’re more powerful than their keepers and just run off or fight back against the establishment.

Meanwhile you pick a teenage girl who has these new powers and abilities that she can’t explain or understand and all of the sudden create this relationship of dependence. She needs you, the Council, to tell her how this all works and how it’s all supposed to work.

Sure you could argue they could program them like that from a younger age, but I think there is also the concern of involving the outside world as well. Plus, it eliminates the human element from the child that you get by having them grow up normally. They’re more robotic and stoic because they didn’t have that family atmosphere. They’re just soldiers.

Another issue that comes to mind is this idea that they can depend on each other or maybe even form friendships with other potentials. That becomes a huge complication when or if they get selected because, oops, now you can’t see your friends anymore, and likely never will because they won’t show up unless you die. It’s sort of this emotional response when let’s say your best friend gets selected, and then all of the sudden next week someone else gets the power. Eventually, given enough time, the potentials left at the school would understand the Council is basically sending them to die and rebel.

I really think that the insidious nature of the Council gets somewhat overlooked because their cause is just and right. Let’s not forget that they tried to completely control Buffy, almost killed her (and are implied to have killed many like her) with that whole Kralik disaster, and have their own personal hitmen whose SOLE purpose is to do the dirty work of the Council. It’s all made more disturbing and cruel when they seem to sort of understand that Buffy/Faith swapped bodies and just do not care or change at all.

These are not good people. Giles was an aberrance caused by a father/daughter bond, and Wesley was weak (though even then was dangerous when following orders). Your average Watcher is sitting there wondering how they can squeeze the most use out of you before you block a little too slow or miss just one jab at the wrong time. Their whole doctrine is more or less that the ends justifies the means.

 

[NotASlayer]

These are not good people. Giles was an aberrance caused by a father/daughter bond, and Wesley was weak (though even then was dangerous when following orders). Your average Watcher is sitting there wondering how they can squeeze the most use out of you before you block a little too slow or miss just one jab at the wrong time. Their whole doctrine is more or less that the ends justifies the means.

"The Council fights evil. The Slayer is the instrument by which we fight. The Council remains, the Slayers change. It's been that way from the beginning."

Quentin Travis, Checkpoint.

 

[AlphaFoxtrot]

And if the conflicts with the council were written in good faith as an ethical debate between the needs of the few verses the needs of the many, you may have grounds for that, but the council barely rises to fire bad, tree pretty.

 

[Cohen]

And if the conflicts with the council were written in good faith as an ethical debate between the needs of the few verses the needs of the many, you may have grounds for that, but the council barely rises to fire bad, tree pretty.

You’re right the council are always kind of vague. The fourth season would have been much more compelling if Maggie had been working for a covert branch of the Council.

 

[famicommander]

You’re right the council are always kind of vague. The fourth season would have been much more compelling if Maggie had been working for a covert branch of the Council.

The Council would never work with Maggie. They were too stubborn to even help Angel because he was a vampire. Even knowing that in just a few hours Buffy would be leading an army of untrained teenagers against an Old One, a rogue Slayer (Faith was still on the board at this time), and an army of vampires.

Obviously I'm not a big Angel fan, but it's ludicrous to intentionally let him die and keep him from assisting in that fight. Besides Buffy he'd have been the only one with a chance to trade blows with Faith or absorb even one attack from Wilkins. But the Council was willing to risk an actual apocalypse to hold onto their ideal of not assisting a vampire, not caring at all about his soul.

If Angel dies and Faith makes it to the fight, Graduation Day likely plays out very differently. If Buffy manages to win at all it surely costs far more in the blood of those kids to accomplish the task. But the Council didn't care.

 

[NotASlayer]

The Watchers Council is a very, very old organisation. And the older an organisation gets, the more likely it is that the reason for existing is less its stated aim for existing and more to continue existing and to continue to have power and influence for those within it.

 

[AlphaFoxtrot]

Re: Watchers and the Military: Come on. Their idea of mythology is to introduce the "Coven" which consists of some witches who were too busy to check in on Willow for five years, and were too busy making toast, to send Giles out to get killed. Then the Guardians, who were Ancient Egyptian Third Wave Feminists, or something, which decided to make an axe in case Firefly got cancelled. They clearly weren't interested in making a compelling multifaceted mythology.