Were they right dismissing Spike?

[Chosen Enemy]

After Spike tied Buffy up in his crypt in "Crush", and she almost got killed by Drusilla and he told her he loved her, everybody was very mad at him, in the next episode(s). They kicked him out of the shop and wanted to de-invite him from there, after also di-inviting him from Buffy's house. I really felt sorry for him. I felt they were so mean to him. But... he did almost get Buffy killed. He did chain her up. He did abuse her a little, and built a shrine with her pictures and a mannequin of her. All that bad. Maybe he did deserve to be kicked out of their lives after all that, and even kill him. But I can't not feel that they were too harsh. After all he let Buffy know (and then everybody) that he loved her. He didn't do all those bad things out of evil. He did love her, and they were so mean to him. I guess he could have done it all a little better, without having Buffy chained up. But I'm not sure he could have made Buffy listen to him and his love words without having her pinned down, metaphorically speaking.

What do you think? Did he deserve all this? Were they too harsh on him? Were those things he'd done really that bad? After all it was not out of evil.

 

[InsaneMystic]

Romantic obsession is more than enough reason for massive distrust and a harsh wake-up call, IMO, even if the person in question has a soul. Add to that soullessness, and you'll defo have no complaint coming from me as how Spike got treated after Crush.

 

[Abby27]

I think it's difficult because there's a part of me that is very much black and white about it: He was a vampire, a soulless vampire, so I think it's almost ridiculous they didn't stake him after that. It's even more complicated because Spike has always had some level of humanity in him (The Judge even thought this in Surprise/Innocence): he likes the world so has no intentions of bringing about the apocalypse (Becoming), and even has some capacity to love (all throughout his relationship with Drusilla and Buffy). But at the end of the day, he still was evil. And that's what so interesting about him. You can tell he's constantly having this internal battle between the parts that make him human (love, affection) and his evil nature - and that's the battle. Just because he loved Buffy, it didn't make that evil desire go away. He didn't stop and think, "It's wrong to tie someone up and kind of abuse them" because he doesn't (or at least, didn't at the time) have the capacity to reason that out.

So did I feel bad for Spike in that situation, yea, I did. I remember very clearly the look on his face when he realized Buffy un-invited him). But at the end of the day, he was a vampire without a soul, without a basic level of doing what's right for everyone involved. He had proven that his love for Buffy could be dangerous, it made him irrational and without some level of a conscience, it could lead to bad things as we saw. So while I felt bad for him, I think they did what they needed to do to protect Buffy from what could be a love-crazed Spike. I'm honestly surprised Giles or Xander didn't kill him on the spot (well, because Joss wouldn't let that happen!)

 

[Gum Gnome33]

Well, it's a bit tricky. I think it was difficult for the scoobies to accept that he loved her, or that he could love at all. Because after all, though his actions were not based on evil intentions, the mere fact that he was a vampire was enough to raise eyebrows and then some. He hadn't even begun his road to transformation yet-- and though in his eyes if Buffy was good enough for him, he was good enough for Buffy--the others couldn't begin to see it that way until he had actually done some good himself. In other words, from their point of view it wasn't enough for him to have feelings for Buffy; in fact, it was downplayed as an obsession and there's a very thin line, for a soulless creature, between a harmless kind of obsession and the kind that leads to danger.

Now of course, we know what kind of a man Spike becomes, so looking back it's easy to feel awful for the poor guy in Crush. And I'll be the first one to scream at the television that they don't acknowledge all the good that Spike has done nor do they lend enough validity to his feelings in later seasons when he actually starts to earn it. But I think that at this particular point in time, their reaction is understandable.

 

[Skytteflickan88]

I agree with InsaneMystics and Abby 27.


Frankly, I think it's weird they didn't stake him in season 4, specially after he almost got them killed by Adam. The writers really wanted to keep Spike and made the scoobies brainless about this matter.

Being rude to him after they chained up their friend is not un-called for, for reasons mentioned above. I mean sure, I feel for him, but I feel for him the way I would for a dog that's aggressive and needs to be put down; if he had been raised right (not gotten turned) he could have turned into a nice dog(man) that should have gotten many puppies(babies) and lived a long healthy life(but not for over 130 years).

 

[The Unspoken]

he likes the world so has no intentions of bringing about the apocalypse (Becoming)

By walking away when Buffy's cornered? Bringing about an apocalypse through gross negligence still counts as bringing about an apocalypse. Besides, had the Judge succeeded and annihilated most humans, it would've had the de facto effect of making the world a hell dimension populated by mostly demons.

Of course, he had abandoned these aspirations by season 5.

 

[Icarium]

You might want to read this thread, it discusses pretty much the same issue. Personally I think, it's absolutely bizarre to claim that Spike deserved anything better. He should have thanked his lucky stars (and JM's contract) that kidnapping Buffy didn't end with his staking.

 

[VisionGirl]

Frankly, I think it's weird they didn't stake him in season 4, specially after he almost got them killed by Adam. The writers really wanted to keep Spike and made the scoobies brainless about this matter.

Season 4? Nah, other than his kinda-teaming up with Adam, I thought he was fairly harmless ("impotent?" "flaccid?" LOL). But after he kidnapped Buffy, yeah. He was dangerous, to her & to those around her, as well as those around him (tying up Dru). A soulless vampire obsessed with Buffy, even chipped, is a scary thought.

 

[Abby27]

By walking away when Buffy's cornered? Bringing about an apocalypse through gross negligence still counts as bringing about an apocalypse. Besides, had the Judge succeeded and annihilated most humans, it would've had the de facto effect of making the world a hell dimension populated by mostly demons.

Good point. In the podcast, "The Art of Slaying," they sort of touch on that fact: Why would Spike want to raise The Judge? I think he is doing it mostly for Drusilla: at the time, he was so in love with her and wanting to please her, that because she wanted to do it, he did it. By the time Angelus comes into play, Spike sees how held bent they are in destroying the world, Spike backs out. That's why he tells Buffy he doesn't want to destroy it and sides with Buffy. And he walks away from Buffy when she is cornered because he got what he wanted: Drusilla safe. Honestly, I don't think Spike cares whether or not the world is really saved (in season 2 that is), he cared more about Drusilla leaving him and becoming more interested in Angelus. So, as soon as he got her away from him, he darted. And if the world had gotten sucked into hell, he wouldn't have cared too much since he had Dru there.

Anyway, back to the main topic, I still think even though Spike loved Buffy, he at the core was not good, at least not yet. So at the end of the day, his love for her was selfish in a way. She didn't want to be with him or accept his love, so he kidnapped her and abused her - that's not really love. And Spike didn't develop that sort of selfless love until season 7 when he stopped pushing himself on her. That's when it was at it's best IMO.

---------- Post added at 04:58 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:30 PM ----------

@propechygrrl I'm behind a couple episodes but I LOVE it, I think the guys are great!

 

[Tranquillity]

Hell Yes they were right!

He tied Buffy up and threatened to let Dru kill her if she didn't admit that she had an ounce of feeling for him. That is crazy behaviour.

I always cringe for Spike in that Magic Box scene - I mean, for the life of me I can't understand why he'd go and try and ingratiate himself with the gang after pulling a stunt like that. I get that he wants acceptance into the group but I do think, at that point in time it is purely as a way to get to Buffy.

 

[prophecygrrl]

Much as I love Spike and Spuffy, I think they were totally justified. He chained Buffy up and nearly got her killed! Of course things change later, but they were still plenty right to dismiss him after what he does in Crush.

 

[sosa lola]

The Scoobies were completely justified. What Spike did was really huge. If chaining her and threatening to kill her is his idea of love, then no, they were not harsh at all. I actually love how much they loved Buffy and feared for her.

I love Spike and I know he was struggling to get it right, but that doesn't make what the Scoobies did harsh. If it were me I'd have killed him.

 

[LondonDude]

Even though Spike is my favorite chracter I completely understand The Scoobies behaviour towards him since he chained Buffy and Drusilla nearly killed her. Also they still view Spike as soulless vampire who isn't capable of love (Well maybe Dawn,Willow and Joyce are sympathetic towards Spike). I m still surprised that Xander or Giles haven't staked him to be honest

 

[ticonderouga]

Buffy herself says in a later season that her life would much simpler if she would just stop saving his (Spike's) life

 

[KellGreen]

Yeah, i love Spike, but i wouldn't imagine the scoobies reacting any kinder than they did. Letting him live was kind at that point.

i also appreciated some of what we got out of the whole thing: spike was always able to get into Buffy's until she realizes he's fallen in love with her😕

he's sort of Anya-like here in just not quite grasping "normal" human behavior. i believe that he really doesn't see anything wrong with what he's done, and that's why he goes to Magic Box like normal, with it not even occurring to him that they'd all be pissed at him.

 

[zobothehobo]

I think yes, but I honestly feel like if Buffy and the Scoobies had been kinder about his crush and infatuation, he might not have tied her up. I mean he tells her he loves her and she's all like "I'm so disgusted with myself! What did I do to make him have these feelings?" And he's like "WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT?!?! WHAT DO YOU WANT FROM ME?!?!?!?!" And he ties her up... and I'm like "uh, what did you expect?" I mean, he's a soulless vampire who just told you he loves you... You'd think she'd proceed with a bit more caution...

But I might be biased because by this point in the story, I'm already totally routing for Spuffy mainly because Spike wants it so bad, it hurts me that it doesn't fall in his lap. *sigh* SpikeFangirlProblems.

---------- Post added at 11:18 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:07 PM ----------

[MENTION=11238]KellGreen[/MENTION] agrees: oh, but you know how spike likes the challenge/chase!

But I just want him to have everything he wants because he wants it. I love him so much, I just wana give it to him... because I can. Except I can't. And that sucks.

 

[Marisa]

Did he deserve it yes but I look at the scoobies in general to be very harsh toward him. I feel they are always so quick to judge that is why I wish he wouldn't help them at times. Like with Dawn in season 6 he should have left them and let them see how bad it would have been without him because lets face it without Willow and Buffy Spike is the only one that can handle a battle. I know it sounds wrong but that is one thing that always irritated me. I think there are ways to handle situations them all ganging up on him was rude. It was between him and Buffy really I mean beside for Joyce, Dawn and occasionally Willow he didn't care and even love any of them. So to me the scene where Buffy shut him out was better because she had a place to do that. That is how I look at it at least.

 

[Taake]

He chained Buffy up and threatened to have her killed... nearly well got her killed. This isn't love this is obsession... "admit that you care for me or I'll kill you..." that's not reasonable behavior.

So were they right to dismiss Spike afterwards? Yes!
Do I think they were actually a bit soft on him, I certainly do, and hadn't it been for the fact that the writers/Joss/fans/whomever wanted to keep Spike around it would not have been unreasonable for him to have been staked for it. Because this should have proved that even with a chip in his head, Spike is clearly not a 'harmless' being.


(And btw I'm not saying that I wanted Spike staked here, I'm saying that I really wish they would not have dragged his character down this path. I know a lot of fans can overlook, forgive and get over these actions, but I certainly cannot)

 

[zobothehobo]

He chained Buffy up and threatened to have her killed... nearly well got her killed. This isn't love this is obsession... "admit that you care for me or I'll kill you..." that's not reasonable behavior.

It is reasonable behavior for a soulless vampire in love. He is not human. If he were human and/or had a soul, I'd be more upset about this and put more weight on it. I'd also be less likely to forgive him for it. But he had no soul. I couldn't possibly hold him to the ethical standards of someone with a soul.

 

[Taake]

It is reasonable behavior for a soulless vampire in love. He is not human. If he were human and/or had a soul, I'd be more upset about this and put more weight on it. I'd also be less likely to forgive him for it. But he had no soul. I couldn't possibly hold him to the ethical standards of someone with a soul.

I see your point but I still say that it was very reasonable for the Scoobies and Buffy to dismiss him for this.

A soulless, unethical, not so harmless vampire... if you ignore your love for Spike here (picture Angelus doing it if that makes it easier 😉) that description should make Buffy think "hmm were did I put that sharp piece of wood again" and rightly so.