Were they right dismissing Spike?

[InsaneMystic]

I don't think Buffy should have EVER spoken to him again after Intervention, even if she did somewhat forgive him after Crush.

Huh? Seriously? ??? Intervention was one of Spike's hugest redeeming moments before the S6/7 cliffhanger. That ep was more of a reason to pick up speaking with him again, which (I definitely grant you that) Crush provided more than enough reasons not to do anymore.

 

[sosa lola]

soulunsung agrees: Ah, but throughout S6, I noticed there was this whole "no means no, when sometimes it means yes instead," vibe as well. I can cite a a couple of different moments like that off-hand dealing with Buffy and Spuffy sex, for instance.

I was talking about S5. S6 is a different matter. In S5, when Buffy said no, she really meant it. And Spike should have backed off.

 

[Willow My Love]

Huh? Seriously? ??? Intervention was one of Spike's hugest redeeming moments before the S6/7 cliffhanger. That ep was more of a reason to pick up speaking with him again, which (I definitely grant you that) Crush provided more than enough reasons not to do anymore.

Really?! After he made a sexbot Buffy?! I understand he protected Dawn, but he's disgusting and one good deed is not enough to afford a man forgiveness after a lifetime (or three) of evil. He's done way more to hurt Buffy than help her. Including trying to kill her more than once, and taking a shotgun to try to kill her again in s5! Why is Spike an all around good guy just because he didn't want to help some bitch that was torturing him? I wouldn't have told Glory anything either.

 

[InsaneMystic]

Really?! After he made a sexbot Buffy?!

I consider that quite more harmless than his actions in Crush. Seems Your Mileage May Vary on that matter. 🙂

I understand he protected Dawn, but he's disgusting and one good deed is not enough to afford a man forgiveness after a lifetime (or three) of evil. He's done way more to hurt Buffy than help her. Including trying to kill her more than once, and taking a shotgun to try to kill her again in s5! Why is Spike an all around good guy just because he didn't want to help some bitch that was torturing him? I wouldn't have told Glory anything either.

Whoa, dudette. I think you're seriously, seriously underestimating the effects of torture. I'd estimate that 9 out of 10 people (Human people. With souls.) would have told Glory everything she wants to know, and then some more. And I could certainly not have blamed them for that, dead Dawnie or not. (Just think of all the people who confessed guilty to witchcraft, heresy etc. under "testimony of pain" of the Inquisition and others in the witchhunt hysteria. I guess they were just idiots then, affirming the superstitions of some jerks who tortured them? Well, seems they got their just desserts for that idiocy when they got burned/hanged... 🙄 )

Spike, who doesn't even have a soul, not telling Glory that Dawn is The Key - well, if that's not absolutely heroic, I don't see what the other Scoobies have ever done to be rated as heroes. (No, running around killing vampires and demons doesn't qualify - that's the Slayer's job. No more heroic in itself than the adventures of "Alice The Bookstore Clerk". 😉) That one deed is definitely H-UGE enough to warrant inclusion in the Scooby Gang, probably much more so than anything Anya ever did (her tag-along Scooby status definitely is something I've never really understood).

 

[white avenger]

It must be remembered that Spike is a predatory animal who just happens to look human and speak a human language. The standards and customs under which he had spent the last century living are not the same, and are in some points directly contradictory to what passed for human Society in Sunnydale, California, U S of A. Certainly, he deserved to be punished for his actions. But I don't believe total rejection was the proper answer to the problem, if for no other reason than that he was a valuable asset to the team, both as a fighter and as a source of information. Certainly, he shouldn't have been trusted even as much as the gang had come to do up to that point, but retaining him as an ally, even one under close observation and limited trust, might have been the better option. As we saw later on in that season and the remainder of the series, Spike was a valuable, possibly even indispensable, asset to the team.

 

[Willow My Love]

I don't see what the other Scoobies have ever done to be rated as heroes. (No, running around killing vampires and demons doesn't qualify - that's the Slayer's job. No more heroic in itself than the adventures of "Alice The Bookstore Clerk". 😉)

Right. That's the Slayer's job. Do Willow, Xander, or Anya actually have to help her? No. But they do. They fight evil of their own free will. How is that not heroic? They've saved Buffy's life on numerous occasions, and Xander even brought her back to life. So did Willow. But no, you're right, that can't possibly be heroic.

What Spike did was a good deed. I still hold that it shouldn't be enough for Buffy to forgive everything else he's done to her, or at least be wary of him. But no, he's accepted moreso than her best friends in some cases. I really didn't find that all too believable.

 

[zobothehobo]

Right. That's the Slayer's job. Do Willow, Xander, or Anya actually have to help her? No. But they do. They fight evil of their own free will. How is that not heroic? They've saved Buffy's life on numerous occasions, and Xander even brought her back to life. So did Willow. But no, you're right, that can't possibly be heroic.

I'm feeling a slight double standard here. Spike didn't have to do this either... He went against his nature and best interest to do something good by his own free will. I mean if having free will and choosing to fight on the side of good is how you define a hero, Spike is hero. ESPECIALLY in Intervention.

 

[Willow My Love]

I'm feeling a slight double standard here. Spike didn't have to do this either... He went against his nature and best interest to do something good by his own free will. I mean if having free will and choosing to fight on the side of good is how you define a hero, Spike is hero. ESPECIALLY in Intervention.

My point is he did someTHING good. ONE thing, to be exact. How many times have the other scoobies saved the world? Saved Buffy? How many times has Spike tried to KILL Buffy? I don't believe one, single good deed is enough to forgive a man (or a vampire) of over a hundred years of killing, and evil. Everyone is so quick to forgive the fact that he was William the Bloody... He didn't tell Glory about Dawn. Then *poof* all is forgiven? How does that make sense?

I did not say that was the only way I defined a hero. I do not believe Spike is ever a hero. He does way too much to serve himself.

I believe he could have been forgiven when he got his soul. He shouldn't have been forgiven before that.

Besides, if Spike hadn't created the Buffybot to "play checkers" with, then the Buffybot wouldn't have tried to protect him, and he wouldn't have wound up in Glory's hands in the first place. It's his own selfish actions that got him into trouble, yet again.

 

[Icarium]

Whoa, dudette. I think you're seriously, seriously underestimating the effects of torture. I'd estimate that 9 out of 10 people (Human people. With souls.) would have told Glory everything she wants to know, and then some more. And I could certainly not have blamed them for that, dead Dawnie or not. (Just think of all the people who confessed guilty to witchcraft, heresy etc. under "testimony of pain" of the Inquisition and others in the witchhunt hysteria. I guess they were just idiots then, affirming the superstitions of some jerks who tortured them? Well, seems they got their just desserts for that idiocy when they got burned/hanged...

And you are forgetting that Spike likes nothing nothing better than mouthing off people and that there was still a reasonable chance of him being rescued by the Scoobies. If he believed Glory would have actually let him live if he had told her about the Key, he might well have done it but even Spike ain't that stupid. It was very much in his own self-interest to not tell her the truth.

Spike, who doesn't even have a soul, not telling Glory that Dawn is The Key - well, if that's not absolutely heroic, I don't see what the other Scoobies have ever done to be rated as heroes.

For one thing some of them have resisted torture too (Giles and Tara). For another, it's not in their self-interest to help Buffy unless things have reached apocalyptic stage but they do it anyway, without expecting to be paid in return unlike some vampires that I might mention. Claiming that Spike is more heroic than them is the most hilarious thing I have heard in a while.

 

[Gum Gnome33]

He didn't tell Glory about Dawn. Then *poof* all is forgiven? How does that make sense?

I missed the part where all was forgiven in a *poof.* Intervention was the very first time when any of the scoobies started to see that Spike might really have some good in him, and rightfully so. But it was a long time after that before Buffy started consistently treating him as anything other than a soulless vampire. The wonderful thing he did in Intervention in no way made up for the past, but it was the beginning of his road to redemption, and that ultimate decision to get a soul.

I do not believe Spike is ever a hero. He does way too much to serve himself.

So, being selfish and being a hero are mutually exclusive? No other heroes in the history of the world or of fiction have ever acted in self interest, (even sometimes excessively so?)
Furthermore, (and this is something that is getting overlooked quite often here), this particular character was inherently evil. Didn't have a soul. Was a demon. Whatever you want to call it. For a creature such as him to help another being, particularly while being tortured, speaks volumes. A creature that has to fight the very core of his moral structure just to do something good impresses me even more than someone who is naturally inclined to know the difference. And if either is being tortured in the process, that is even more impressive.

Besides, if Spike hadn't created the Buffybot to "play checkers" with, then the Buffybot wouldn't have tried to protect him, and he wouldn't have wound up in Glory's hands in the first place. It's his own selfish actions that got him into trouble, yet again.

And we could argue that Buffy selfishly went to the desert to confront her issues while Glory and her minions were in hot pursuit of her sister and her friends, leaving a wide open path to any of them, and it was Spike who happened to be captured in this case. But as I stated before, I don't think we can exactly say that acting selfishly puts anyone directly on the path to evil. 🙂

They fight evil of their own free will. How is that not heroic? They've saved Buffy's life on numerous occasions, and Xander even brought her back to life. So did Willow. But no, you're right, that can't possibly be heroic.

Nobody is saying that the scoobies aren't heroic; we're saying that Spike is, too. And Spike didn't have a soul while doing it. He had nothing guiding him toward the inclination to do right. That's something that can't be denied.

there was still a reasonable chance of him being rescued by the Scoobies

Spike clearly doesn't think anyone is coming to save him; that's why he throws himself into the elevator shaft and has to coerce Glory to kick him within an inch of his life in order to do so. He's not buying time and waiting for the troops. He's escaping.

If he believed Glory would have actually let him live if he had told her about the Key, he might well have done it but even Spike ain't that stupid. It was very much in his own self-interest to not tell her the truth.

First of all, while it's probably true that he knew she wouldn't let him live no matter the outcome, you are merely assuming that that 's why he refused to tell her. I see no further evidence. Second of all, how the heck is it in his own self interest to not tell her the truth? How did he know that she wouldn't get tired of hearing him make up stories about Bob Barker or just refusing to talk, and just kill him on the spot? If he really wanted to save himself and didn't care at all what happened to Dawn, there are certainly things he could have done. He could have promised Glory to be her accomplice on the inside, for one thing. He could have said, "Hey, know how the Slayer treats me as 'precious?' Your minions saw for themselves. Spare me, and I'll get all of the inside information to you, directly from them. I'll tell you who the key is, where they all are, what their weaknesses are, etc. I'll give you all the information you need to keep the slayer at bay so that the ritual goes off without a hitch." I mean, you can't expect me to believe that the fact that Spike doesn't try to save himself at the expense of Dawn's life means that he just assumed he couldn't and therefore didn't even try. I prefer to accept the glaringly obvious explanation that he wanted to do something good.

 

[Willow My Love]

So, being selfish and being a hero are mutually exclusive? No other heroes in the history of the world or of fiction have ever acted in self interest, (even sometimes excessively so?)

Yes. That's exactly what I said. Word for word. I definitely said no other hero was EVER selfish because Spike was selfish. Spike did it to serve himself, NOT to be heroic.

Furthermore, (and this is something that is getting overlooked quite often here), this particular character was inherently evil. Didn't have a soul. Was a demon. Whatever you want to call it. For a creature such as him to help another being, particularly while being tortured, speaks volumes. A creature that has to fight the very core of his moral structure just to do something good impresses me even more than someone who is naturally inclined to know the difference. And if either is being tortured in the process, that is even more impressive.

I feel like you overlook the fact that he did it only because he wants Buffy. Completely.

And we could argue that Buffy selfishly went to the desert to confront her issues while Glory and her minions were in hot pursuit of her sister and her friends, leaving a wide open path to any of them, and it was Spike who happened to be captured in this case. But as I stated before, I don't think we can exactly say that acting selfishly puts anyone directly on the path to evil. 🙂

Except that we're not talking about what Buffy did. We're talking about what Spike has done. I never said that "acting selfishly puts anyone directly on the path to evil." You said it yourself, SPIKE IS EVIL.

My contention is simply this: One good deed does not rid a man of a lifetime of evil. This one deed does not turn Spike into a hero. A mass murderer doesn't give up a teenage girl to a demon-God who wants to destroy the boundary between dimensions. That doesn't make him a saint.

Nobody is saying that the scoobies aren't heroic; we're saying that Spike is, too. And Spike didn't have a soul while doing it. He had nothing guiding him toward the inclination to do right. That's something that can't be denied.

Nothing but his own self interest. That's something guiding him. He's not just doing it out of the evilness of his heart.

For one thing some of them have resisted torture too (Giles and Tara). For another, it's not in their self-interest to help Buffy unless things have reached apocalyptic stage but they do it anyway, without expecting to be paid in return unlike some vampires that I might mention. Claiming that Spike is more heroic than them is the most hilarious thing I have heard in a while.

I can't believe I'm saying this, since we butt heads on almost every single topic, but I totally agree.

 

[zobothehobo]

Oh I can't wait to get home and write a reply to all of this.

 

[Icarium]

Spike clearly doesn't think anyone is coming to save him; that's why he throws himself into the elevator shaft and has to coerce Glory to kick him within an inch of his life in order to do so. He's not buying time and waiting for the troops. He's escaping.

One doesn't necessarily contradict the other. And in any event, if Spike thought he had a shot at escaping he had even less of a reason to say the truth to Glory.

First of all, while it's probably true that he knew she wouldn't let him live no matter the outcome, you are merely assuming that that 's why he refused to tell her. I see no further evidence. Second of all, how the heck is it in his own self interest to not tell her the truth?

Because every second he wasn't telling the truth was a second more that he was going to live.

He could have promised Glory to be her accomplice on the inside, for one thing.

Why would she need an accomplice? She can crush Buffy like a bug.

I prefer to accept the glaringly obvious explanation that he wanted to do something good.

I prefer to keep the internal logic of the show consistent, thank you very much. When there is a perfectly good explanation as to why a supposedly evil creature might have done something that might look like a selfless good deed I will take it. I am sure Jane "Spuffy" Espenson didn't intend the episode to be seen that way but I don't care.

Or alternatively, we get back to the other point - that if Spike is capable of selfless good deeds then he is fully to blame for all his murders and should have been killed anyway, soul or no soul. He can't just "fight his nature" whenever it fits him or the plot. He either can fight it, in which case he did all those murders because he couldn't be bothered to fight it or he can't, in which case he wouldn't be able to even for the love of a good woman or whatever other silly reason they contrived for him.

 

[zobothehobo]

Yes. That's exactly what I said. Word for word. I definitely said no other hero was EVER selfish because Spike was selfish. Spike did it to serve himself, NOT to be heroic.

Honestly, it took me a minute to figure out if you were being sarcastic or not. "no other hero was EVER selfish." Ok... So Buffy didn't have a relationship with Angel in season 3... nor did she leave after season 2... nor did she initially try to turn down her birthright as Slayer... nor did she want go on that date in How To Kill a Boy on the First Date instead of going with Giles... There's so much more selfish things Buffy did... but let's move on. Willow... Willow didn't get drugged up on magic in season 6. Willow didn't bring Buffy back without trying to figure out where she was. Willow didn't do that "let my will be done" spell when Oz left. Willow didn't kill Warren after he killed Tara. I could go on with the other two of the core four, but I think I've made my point. Heroes can be selfish.. in fact, all heroes are. Because people are selfish.

I feel like you overlook the fact that he did it only because he wants Buffy. Completely.

I despise it when people say stuff like this. Ok, so he did something for Buffy. When you say this, you're saying everything anyone ever does for love ever is inherently selfish and therefore not worth anything. You sound like Kant talking about a good deed that makes you feel good. He subjected himself to torture to keep the woman he loves' sister safe. That's pretty selfless.

My contention is simply this: One good deed does not rid a man of a lifetime of evil. This one deed does not turn Spike into a hero. A mass murderer doesn't give up a teenage girl to a demon-God who wants to destroy the boundary between dimensions. That doesn't make him a saint.

This is a valid point. And I don't think anyone's saying that he should be forgiven for all that he did because of what he did in Intervention. I think they're saying (at least what I'm saying) is what he did in Intervention proves that he deserves a chance to get better and to change.

Nothing but his own self interest. That's something guiding him. He's not just doing it out of the evilness of his heart.

It's what's guiding everyone. A world full of truly selfless people would be utopia. Unfortunately, like utopia, it doesn't exist. Everyone is guided even a little by selfishness. Earlier, I mentioned Kant, the moral philosopher. He believe a good deed wasn't truly morally good unless you didn't get anything from it. And that includes feeling happy you did it. It seems to be what you (and a lot of other Spike haters) argue when it comes to Spike. Unfortunately for you (and for Kant), like Kant's theory, yours holds no real basis for argument because those people don't really exist. That kind of love, that kind of behavior... it would be against human nature and it simply doesn't exist. In fact, too much selflessness is grounds to be a symptom of something wrong with your brain chemistry because people aren't like that.

So yes, Spike acted "selfishly." Here, in the end of season 6, and in many other places where he does something out of love for Buffy. But you could argue I act selfishly when I tell my friends I can't do something at a particular date and time because I have to be online to talk to my girlfriend. Selfishness is a fact of life.

 

[Willow My Love]

Honestly, it took me a minute to figure out if you were being sarcastic or not. "no other hero was EVER selfish." Ok... So Buffy didn't have a relationship with Angel in season 3... nor did she leave after season 2... nor did she initially try to turn down her birthright as Slayer... nor did she want go on that date in How To Kill a Boy on the First Date instead of going with Giles... There's so much more selfish things Buffy did... but let's move on. Willow... Willow didn't get drugged up on magic in season 6. Willow didn't bring Buffy back without trying to figure out where she was. Willow didn't do that "let my will be done" spell when Oz left. Willow didn't kill Warren after he killed Tara. I could go on with the other two of the core four, but I think I've made my point. Heroes can be selfish.. in fact, all heroes are. Because people are selfish.

Once more, we're talking about Spike. Not Buffy, not Willow, not anyone else. Spike. Willow, Buffy, the core four, that's not the issue here. The issue is Spike.

I despise it when people say stuff like this. Ok, so he did something for Buffy. When you say this, you're saying everything anyone ever does for love ever is inherently selfish and therefore not worth anything. You sound like Kant talking about a good deed that makes you feel good. He subjected himself to torture to keep the woman he loves' sister safe. That's pretty selfless.

The whole reason he's in that mess is because he was selfish and disgusting and built that robot. Had he NOT been selfish there, he wouldn't have been tortured.

You guys are acting like I'm saying no one else is selfish. I just don't feel that Spike is selfLESS. Ever. Everything he does is for alterior motives. Buffy, Willow, Xander, Giles (since you all seem so keen on dragging them into a conversation about Spike anyhow) they save the world on numerous occasions. And the only selfish motivator is so that they, and everyone else in the world, don't die.

I don't think Spike deserves forgivness. Even when he helps her like this. I think that Crush should have been the end of their connection.

 

[zobothehobo]

Once more, we're talking about Spike. Not Buffy, not Willow, not anyone else. Spike. Willow, Buffy, the core four, that's not the issue here. The issue is Spike.

I didn't bring them up out of nowhere. YOU brought them up first by referring to "other heroes." I'm sorry that it doesn't support your claim but you were the one who said it did.

The whole reason he's in that mess is because he was selfish and disgusting and built that robot. Had he NOT been selfish there, he wouldn't have been tortured.

True. Spike made a mistake and he paid for it. But he made a selfless decision to not tell Glory about Dawn or the Buffy bot (which could have helped Glory SO much).

You guys are acting like I'm saying no one else is selfish. I just don't feel that Spike is selfLESS. Ever. Everything he does is for alterior motives. Buffy, Willow, Xander, Giles (since you all seem so keen on dragging them into a conversation about Spike anyhow) they save the world on numerous occasions. And the only selfish motivator is so that they, and everyone else in the world, don't die.

You actually said exactly that no one else is selfish. I've already quote it, but I'll do it again just so you can remember.

So, being selfish and being a hero are mutually exclusive? No other heroes in the history of the world or of fiction have ever acted in self interest, (even sometimes excessively so?)

Yes. That's exactly what I said. Word for word. I definitely said no other hero was EVER selfish because Spike was selfish. Spike did it to serve himself, NOT to be heroic.

And what I'm saying is no one is ever 100% selfLESS. Provide me with a time when someone else is 100% selfless? Because if no one is ever selfLESS, you cannot possibly expect Spike to be.

I don't think Spike deserves forgivness. Even when he helps her like this. I think that Crush should have been the end of their connection.

Now we get to the heart of the matter here. You don't forgive Spike for Crush? Why?

 

[Willow My Love]

I didn't bring them up out of nowhere. YOU brought them up first by referring to "other heroes." I'm sorry that it doesn't support your claim but you were the one who said it did.

I didn't bring up "other heroes." Another user did.

You actually said exactly that no one else is selfish. I've already quote it, but I'll do it again just so you can remember.

Kinda figured it was obvious I was being incredibly sarcastic there.

And what I'm saying is no one is ever 100% selfLESS. Provide me with a time when someone else is 100% selfless? Because if no one is ever selfLESS, you cannot possibly expect Spike to be.

This is about Spike. I don't have to provide you any other examples. So, if no one is ever selfless, like you're saying, how can YOU expect Spike to be?

Now we get to the heart of the matter here. You don't forgive Spike for Crush? Why?

BECAUSE HE TRIED TO KILL BUFFY AGAIN. He "loves" her so much, that he tried to KILL her?! How does that work?!
And the heart of the matter is not Crush. I don't have to forgive Spike. He's evil, and he's murdered HOW many innocent people? It's not just Crush. He's not redeemable, in my eyes, until he gets his soul.

 

[Gum Gnome33]

So, basically Zobo covered all I was about to say in my defense, above ^^^. But I will just add:

That's exactly what I said. Word for word. I definitely said no other hero was EVER selfish because Spike was selfish. Spike did it to serve himself, NOT to be heroic.

I also couldn't tell exactly if you were being sarcastic, so let's just back up to when you literally said that Spike couldn't be a hero because he did too much to serve himself. In which case my response, again, is that I would love to see a hero who never does anything in self interest.

I feel like you overlook the fact that he did it only because he wants Buffy. Completely.

No, I don't overlook it. I embrace and acknowledge it openly. The Spuffy in me loves that he did it out of love. The Spike fan in me loves that he did something good. Because the two things didn't conflict with one another, I have to ignore one of them?

Except that we're not talking about what Buffy did. We're talking about what Spike has done. I never said that "acting selfishly puts anyone directly on the path to evil." You said it yourself, SPIKE IS EVIL.

I think you missed my point, which was that somebody can do something selfish but that doesn't make them evil, and isn't even the reason why Spike was captured in this particular instance, (which was part of your previous argument). You seem to be consistently saying that selfishness and goodness/heroics are inversely related, which I am trying to point out is not the case.

One good deed does not rid a man of a lifetime of evil. This one deed does not turn Spike into a hero. A mass murderer doesn't give up a teenage girl to a demon-God who wants to destroy the boundary between dimensions. That doesn't make him a saint.

Neither I nor any or the scoobies, (or anyone on the boards from what I can tell), think that what Spike did in Intervention makes him a hero. We think it is a heroic deed and there is quite a distinction. As I stated in my previous post, Spike had a very long way to go before he became a champion, and what he did in the past will never be erased. And I never, ever said he was a saint. I would never call souled Spike a saint, let alone soulless Spike. That doesn't mean he doesn't do good, heroic things.

I really don't understand the notion of judging everything one does based on what they've done before. Someone's past behavior can give us a lot of information about them, and can be a reason for us to like them or not. But each individual deed that a creature makes should be measured as an act on its own. Otherwise, there is never any room for either growth or failure.
Just to relate it back to the 'verse: do we continue to hate Willow and Faith in season 7 and consider them to be irredeemable, because they had each killed 2 men up until that point? Do we hate Anya in season 4 because she spent one thousand years killing and torturing without remorse, and after choosing to become a demon? Each of these characters is struggling to make up for what they did, in their own way, and at their own speed. Anya doesn't truly regret what she's done for centuries, for example, nor does she actively repent for it until "Selfless." And yet, she does good things, for three whole seasons as a bonafide scooby, about to marry Xander. Her deeds aren't discounted because of her past. Why are Spike's?

Why would she need an accomplice? She can crush Buffy like a bug.

She certainly likes to say that, doesn't she? Yet she has a team of minions helping to find out who the key is. She's enslaved half of the time by Ben. And ultimately, she never does crush Buffy. Mostly it's because Buffy has information that she needs. The same information that Spike has.

---------- Post added at 05:02 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:50 PM ----------

BECAUSE HE TRIED TO KILL BUFFY AGAIN. He "loves" her so much, that he tried to KILL her?! How does that work?!

I know I just responded, but I have to address this. Spike absolutely does not try to kill Buffy in "Crush" or in any episode after he realizes that he loves her. He ties her up, yes, and it's twisted and wrong. He's a vampire. But he never tries to kill her. He threatens to unleash Dru on her so that she'll admit that she feels something for him. She refuses. Harmony comes, Dru escapes from her ropes, and begins hitting Buffy after Buffy blocks her a couple of times. Spike, fighting Harmony off, runs to Buffy as Dru is hitting her, and unlocks her chains so that she can escape. Dru "tsks" and runs off.

 

[zobothehobo]

I didn't bring up "other heroes." Another user did.

I should not have to say this... but I will spell out why that was brought up and again defend why I said it... You were talking about heroics being something mutually exclusive from selfishness. The other user asked you if that's what you meant. And you responded.

Kinda figured it was obvious I was being incredibly sarcastic there.

Well then the point the other user was trying to make stands. If being a hero and being selfish aren't mutually exclusive, your point about Spike not being a hero because he's selfish (a paraphrase from you) isn't valid.

This is about Spike. I don't have to provide you any other examples. So, if no one is ever selfless, like you're saying, how can YOU expect Spike to be?

I don't. I don't expect Spike to be selfless... I view selflessness much like perfection. They're both hypothetical constructs. They're like limits in calculus. You can approach them but you can never be them. For all intesive purposes, Spike is selfless to me even though he does have some selfish motives because selflessness is something that's not tangible... It's kind of like "good enough."

And I'd like to point out, I'm asking you to provide examples for other characters to gain a full grasp on your viewpoint. If you don't have a double standard with Spike here, you should be able to give me precedent. Me bringing up other characters here is like if I was a lawyer bringing up a previous case in court.

Furthermore, I have a theory about Spike haters. Now, this isn't about all Spike haters... just some... and I would say, from the interaction I've had with you talking about Spike, it includes you. Spike is so widely loved and worshiped in the fandom and that irritates you. You've overcompensated holding Spike to standards that aren't met by any other character because of how widely worshiped he is. But if the standards you hold Spike to aren't met by any other character, your argument is not valid because you're expecting him to be something he can't be. Me asking for examples of how other characters live up to your standards is me suggesting that they don't. And therefore, invalidating your argument.

BECAUSE HE TRIED TO KILL BUFFY AGAIN. He "loves" her so much, that he tried to KILL her?! How does that work?!
And the heart of the matter is not Crush. I don't have to forgive Spike. He's evil, and he's murdered HOW many innocent people? It's not just Crush. He's not redeemable, in my eyes, until he gets his soul.

As Gum Gnome pointed out, he didn't try to kill her. He tired to make her love him. Last time he needed to make a woman love him again he said he was going to go find her, tie her up and torture her until she loved him. I'm assuming he was trying the same approach. And it makes sense why. He's soulless and when he tried to be sweet, she spat in his face.

And no, you don't have to forgive Spike. You're right. He's evil. And his actions in Crush aren't excusable... but they are understandable. You don't have to forgive him.. but an attempt to understand his point of view would be nice.

 

[Willow My Love]

I think you missed my point, which was that somebody can do something selfish but that doesn't make them evil, and isn't even the reason why Spike was captured in this particular instance, (which was part of your previous argument). You seem to be consistently saying that selfishness and goodness/heroics are inversely related, which I am trying to point out is not the case.

Did you miss the part where Spike's a vampire without a soul, so he's EVIL?

Just to relate it back to the 'verse: do we continue to hate Willow and Faith in season 7 and consider them to be irredeemable, because they had each killed 2 men up until that point? Do we hate Anya in season 4 because she spent one thousand years killing and torturing without remorse, and after choosing to become a demon? Each of these characters is struggling to make up for what they did, in their own way, and at their own speed. Anya doesn't truly regret what she's done for centuries, for example, nor does she actively repent for it until "Selfless." And yet, she does good things, for three whole seasons as a bonafide scooby, about to marry Xander. Her deeds aren't discounted because of her past. Why are Spike's?

Anya becomes human again. She's no longer a demon, so yes, I do forgive her. When Spike gets his soul back, I think he can be redeemed. Willow, she didn't do that simply because she wanted to. The magic overtook her. I don't think she got enough punishment, and I've said to in another thread, but let me say this, one more time. This thread is about Spike. Not Anya, Not Willow. Not Faith. Spike, and Spike only.

I know I just responded, but I have to address this. Spike absolutely does not try to kill Buffy in "Crush" or in any episode after he realizes that he loves her.

He does too try to kill her after he figures out he loves her! He brings a shotgun to her house all ready to shoot her! Bravo for him, he stops, but the intent was there!
He knowingly brought her into the same place as Drusilla, an insane vampire that's already killed a Slayer since Buffy was called. Maybe he didn't intend for Dru to almost kill her, but it happened. Dru tried, and Spike was why she was there. Maybe he doesn't try to kill her, but he almost gets her killed because he decided she needed to be chained up.

He's a vampire.

You seem to forget in saying he's such a hero. So, his evil deeds are okay because he's a vampire, but he's also so heroic because he's a vampire? You can't have it both ways.

I should not have to say this... but I will spell out why that was brought up and again defend why I said it... You were talking about heroics being something mutually exclusive from selfishness. The other user asked you if that's what you meant. And you responded.

I said that being selfish does not a hero make.

Well then the point the other user was trying to make stands. If being a hero and being selfish aren't mutually exclusive, your point about Spike not being a hero because he's selfish (a paraphrase from you) isn't valid.

Let me tell you what was sarcastic. Yes. That's exactly what I said. Word for word. I definitely said no other hero was EVER selfish because Spike was selfish. Spike did it to serve himself, NOT to be heroic.
The bold part is NOT sarcasm. My point is not negated simply because I used sarcasm when words were being put in my mouth.

I don't. I don't expect Spike to be selfless... I view selflessness much like perfection. They're both hypothetical constructs. They're like limits in calculus. You can approach them but you can never be them. For all intesive purposes, Spike is selfless to me even though he does have some selfish motives because selflessness is something that's not tangible... It's kind of like "good enough."

Wait. No one can be selfless, but, to you, Spike is selfless? That doesn't make any sense.

Furthermore, I have a theory about Spike haters. Now, this isn't about all Spike haters... just some... and I would say, from the interaction I've had with you talking about Spike, it includes you. Spike is so widely loved and worshiped in the fandom and that irritates you. You've overcompensated holding Spike to standards that aren't met by any other character because of how widely worshiped he is. But if the standards you hold Spike to aren't met by any other character, your argument is not valid because you're expecting him to be something he can't be. Me asking for examples of how other characters live up to your standards is me suggesting that they don't. And therefore, invalidating your argument.

That's simply demented. I don't like Spike. I don't like the character. It has NOTHING to do with the fandom. I've never liked Spike! Even before I got into the fandom. I think he was terrifying at first, then his character was ruined because he followed the Slayer around like a puppy dog.

I've never said that any other character was a hero. Did I? No. I started out saying that Spike's actions should not be so easily dismissed because of the single incident with Glory. What standards are you talking about that I hold other characters to? The only person I think can be somewhat called a hero is Buffy. Simply because she saves even people she hates because it's her job. But she's HUMAN. She makes mistakes.

You having a theory on why I don't like Spike hardly invalidates my argument. You just love the character so much that you can't see my point of view because to you, Spike is precious. He does nothing wrong, and what he DOES do wrong, you gloss over.

And no, you don't have to forgive Spike. You're right. He's evil. And his actions in Crush aren't excusable... but they are understandable. You don't have to forgive him.. but an attempt to understand his point of view would be nice.

So... Tying up someone and trying to force them to love you is understandable to you?