Wesley vs. Giles

[Ripper666]

This was pretty hard for me because I didn't liked Wesley in Buffy but very much in Angel. On the other hand I always loved Giles untill season 7 where he lost his typicall character. His role didn't fit to him anymore. He was like a stranger for me! Well anyway I decided forGiles. 🙂

 

[Hale Caesar]

I would love for the people who voted for Giles explain how they felt about him in the last 2 seasons...

 

[InsaneMystic]

I would love for the people who voted for Giles explain how they felt about him in the last 2 seasons...

Still hot as ever, but unfortunately badly handled by writing. (Yes I know, real world reasons behind it, with ASH wanting more time with his family and all.) Both him abandoning a near-suicidal Buffy mid S6 and conspiring with Wood to murder Spike were bloody awful; he's sure a lot less likeable in the last one and a half. :sigh:

Then again, "I'd like to test that theory" makes up for a lot. 😎

 

[Chosen Enemy]

I would love for the people who voted for Giles explain how they felt about him in the last 2 seasons...

I didn't really feel him in season 6, so he didn't bother or made me wow him this way or another. I didn't like that he left Buffy at her hardest time, but it didn't make me hate him or anything, because I didn't feel his presence enough for me to have a strong opinion on him this season.

As for season 7, well, good job Joss, you've ruined Giles. What bothered me was that he couldn't grasp a smidgen of humor. It's why I started disliking Angel too after a while (like in season 5 of Ats). Waaaay too serious to entertain me. I know it's the middle of a war, but even Buffy had a little sense of humor.

 

[sk]

As for season 7, well, good job Joss, you've ruined Giles. What bothered me was that he couldn't grasp a smidgen of humor. It's why I started disliking Angel too after a while (like in season 5 of Ats). Waaaay too serious to entertain me. I know it's the middle of a war, but even Buffy had a little sense of humor.

Giles: Now wait a minute, you think I'm evil... if I bring a group of girls on a camping trip and don't touch them?

He still had some funny moments even in season 7. 🙂

The rift between Buffy and Giles towards the end of season 7 breaks my heart a bit though. Especially since we never really got see them reconcile again.

Giles gets my vote in the poll. Overall I think he was quite awesome all throughout the show. And I was never a big fan of Wesley's change from the somewhat clumsy and funny character to yet another cool looking action guy with a troubled mind.

/SK

 

[patriot1123]

Waaaay too serious to entertain me. I know it's the middle of a war, but even Buffy had a little sense of humor.

I beg to differ. Giles's normal sense of humor was evident throughout the season. He was a bit of a curmudgeon in First Date, but not otherwise:

"Synchronised swimming. Complete mystery to me." (Lessons)

"And in keeping with quaint old British tradition, you would now be expected to get into it." (Beneath You)

"I'm afraid we have a slight apocalypse." (Bring on the Night)

"Apparently someone told them that the vision quest consists of me driving them to the desert, doing the hokey pokey until a spooky rasta mama slayer arrives and speaks to them in riddles" (and the facial expression). (The Killer in Me)

"It could be a stapler." (Dirty Girls - tense moment, but still a funny retort)

"I'm ignoring that." (End of Days - in response to Willow's comment that "Scythe matters.")

"I'll go and dig up my sources. Quite literally, actually, as one or two people I have to speak to are dead." (Chosen)

"I used to be a highly respected Watcher. Now I'm a wounded dwarf with the mystical strength of a doily." (Chosen)

"Aren't we going to discuss this? Save the world, go to the mall?" (Chosen)

"The earth is definitely doomed." (Chosen)

"There's another one in Cleveland. Not to spoil the moment." (Chosen)

---------- Post added at 02:02 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:59 PM ----------

I would love for the people who voted for Giles explain how they felt about him in the last 2 seasons...

I thought the writers screwed him up badly in season 7. Not so much in season 6; other than the scenes involving him leaving Buffy, he was the same Giles, and Grave makes up for everything. I just tend to ignore his season 7 persona. And his awesomeness in seasons 1 through 5 is more than enough to carry the day.

 

[Mr Giles]

Ive got nothing against him in s6, maybe some people dislike that he just left his scoobies, but i see it as he was a single 50 yo, hanging out with a bunch of 20somethings. And to go back to where you came from is totally understandable.
I dont see peoples problem with him in s7 either. He was duped by Wood in LMPTM, but he did what he thought was right.

 

[Jod]

Giles!! because he da man 🙂 (yeah he wasnt his best in s7 but i found most of the scoobies had changed in that season too)

 

[Appelsapientje]

Giles has my heart <3 Haha. No, but really, Giles is awesome.

 

[kirsten187]

Giles. Shouldn't have to say any more. I don't think there's any contest in this one.

 

[This Year's Girl]

Winning.

😀

 

[kirsten187]

@This_Year's_Girl - I like that 😀

 

[Kairos]

Giles. Show me Wesley singing about research in a supernaturally enhanced dream about being a rock star, and we'll talk. Until then, no contest.

 

[Hale Caesar]

Giles. Show me Wesley singing about research in a supernaturally enhanced dream about being a rock star, and we'll talk. Until then, no contest.

Show me Giles pulling out dual guns and fighting the Beast in slow motion. Until then, no contest.

I haven't seen many good reasons why Giles is better. Most people here as just saying he's "hot" or referencing random moments in the show😕

 

[patriot1123]

Show me Giles pulling out dual guns and fighting the Beast in slow motion. Until then, no contest.

I haven't seen many good reasons why Giles is better. Most people here as just saying he's "hot" or referencing random moments in the show😕

My post - fourth in this thread - listed "many good reasons that Giles is better." Any thoughts on my post?

In fact, I haven't seen many good reasons on this thread for preferring Wesley, other than his completely unbelievable character development and the fact that people hate seasons 6 and 7 Giles.

 

[Hale Caesar]

My post - fourth in this thread - listed "many good reasons that Giles is better." Any thoughts on my post?

Not to sound like a jerk, but I thought it was very vague and some of the points were random. But I applaud you for actually giving valid reasons why you feel the way you do, most people here just post "he's teh awesome!". I feel like people liked the character in the first 5 seasons and ignore the last 2 and really ignore the fact that his character started going downhill after season 3 (he was good in 4 and 5, but he lost purpose once Buffy started to grow up)

We know that Giles's father disappointed him by telling him he had to be a watcher rather than a grocer or a fighter pilot; and we know that Wesley's father emotionally abused him terribly -- but other than that, we know nothing of Wesley's past, while we know quite a bit more of Giles' past and it plays a role in the show.

We learn more about Wesley's past in Lineage. Even though I did like that Giles had a deeper backstory it was never expanded very well (Angel and Spike had their back stories detailed very well). And I can't fault a character for lack of a backstory, Willow has none at all and she is still awesome.

We've seen Giles interact with other faculty, with Scoobie friends and family, with Spike, with other Watchers (Gwendolyn Price and Wesley), with the Council, with customers at the Magic Shop, and with authorities (many times). Wesley's interaction with people other than the main characters was much more limited, so we didn't get that kind of glimpse into his character.

Wesley's interaction moved far beyond the main cast, Faith, Lilah, Holtz, Darla, Connor, Virginia, Knox, The Beast, Sahjhan and random people at Wolfram and Hart.

They were both tortured, but Giles's character was allowed to react in a defiant fashion ("in a tutu ... pillock"), which gave his character more depth.

Humor doesn't equate to more depth.

They both lost loved ones to murder, but Giles' reaction was much more dramatic.

I disagree. When Fred is dying in Wesley's arms during "A Hole in the World" it is one of the most painful scenes to watch, Wesley had just started a relationship with her and she dies. Giles never had a scene that emotional.

The entire foundation of Giles's role in the BtVS series was a beautiful, well-developed father-daughter relationship with his Slayer. Wesley had nothing to compare to that.

Until season 6 and 7 when his relationship with Buffy was broken. Season 6 "Hey Buffy! I know you just died and probably need emotional support...but i'm going to leave" and in season 7 he just stands around.

As part of this relationship, Giles helped Buffy through the death of her mother, someone he had had a brief physical, and then a friendly, relationship with. We saw no parallel for Wesley.

I'll give you this one. But because we never saw doesn't mean Wesley wouldn't comfort one of his friends in need.

Giles experienced the death of his Slayer, and we saw the emotional fall out from that, including the bittersweet scene where he is treating robo-Buffy as if she were the real Buffy -- and the epic scene where he is reunited with the newly-revived Buffy.

And when Buffy was revived...Giles left. Wesley dealt with knowing he failed as a Watcher, he was supposed to mentor Faith and she turned "evil" and her life spiraled out of control. Even worse, he knows that she isn't a bad person, and that because he was young and inexperienced she could have had an easier life. Like I said, yea, Giles was great in the first couple seasons, but after that he sucked, Buffy didn't want to be in a relationship with him anymore, "I have nothing else to learn from you" scene. So no, the Buffy/Giles relationship was not beautiful because it ended terribly.

We got many intimate glimpses of Giles's home, and his jobs other than Watcher (librarian, magic shop owner), while the few glimpses we got of Wesley's home were sterile and unrevealing, and he had no other job.

That's because Giles is unemployed and has nothing else to do. Once he stops being a Watcher and Buffy grows up he doesn't have a purpose. Season 4 was him dealing with this issue. Wesley had a purpose and mission the entire time he was on Angel. Help people. That is what is important to him so why would he want any other job?

We got to see Giles drunk twice, and hungover once. We got to see Giles as a demon.

So? Wesley becomes an alcoholic after Fred dies.

Perhaps one of the most interesting distinctions is we got to see what presumably normal character (i.e., not a villain or demon) Giles hated -- Professor Walsh.

Wesley hated his father.

And here's another interesting, two-part, difference. Giles made more mistakes (which made him more human and added to the texture of his character), and acknowledged when he made mistakes, which Wesley did not. Giles apologized to Buffy for his role in the Cruciamentium. Giles acknowledged his error in "Doomed," when he had the Word of Valios and didn't realize it. Giles (not in so many words) apologized for his role in the misunderstanding of The Yoko Factor. He came around in the finale of season 1 when he decided he would face the Master, and in the episode where he acknowledged he was driving Buffy too hard. He apologized in Grave for leaving Buffy. Wesley never acknowledged that he should have talked to Angel and the others about the prophecy instead of kidnapping Connor.

I disagree. Giles screwed up, but he's screwed up so many times (and pre-meditated) that it makes you wonder if he lacks any real world smarts. Why would Wesley apologize for kidnapping Connor? He genuinely thought he was doing the right thing, he believed the prophecy was going to kill Connor. That whole issue isn't black and white, there are shades of grey, did Wesley handle it wrong? Absolutely. But his intentions were pure.

Giles killed a human being for the good of the mission. (Wesley chained a woman in his closet, but that's not quite as bad-ass.) Giles told his daughter-figure to kill her sister.

Agreed. Giles killing Ben was badass. Giles shows glimpses of being badass, but Wesley is more consistent. He is willing to make the choices no one else wants to, kidnapping Connor, using Lilah, bringing Angelus back, breaking Faith out of jail, etc.

In a way, this is really just a poll about which character was better or more deeply written. The argument that Giles was irrelevant after season 5 is just an offshoot of the fact that Anthony Stewart Head wanted to return to England to be with his growing daughters, not a reflection on the Giles character. Otherwise the characters are very similar in their traits. But the fact is that Giles was better written, and more deeply written, throughout the series.

How is it an off-shoot? I find it stupid that fans are making excuses for the show. What you see is what you get, the character of Giles sucked in seasons 6 and 7. No excuses should try to cover up this fact.

Pretty much, Giles was a great character. He lost purpose after season 5. His relationship Buffy failed, and he eventually became irrelevant to the show, he had some great moments but individual moments do not make up for full seasons of doing nothing. Wesley has been consistently important to Angel. Sure, Giles had a deeper backstory, but it was never fleshed out like Spike or Angels. And that's all Giles had, an awesome backstory, because his development on the show is pretty much non-existent, he spends the whole show trying to find a purpose and never finds it. Wesley developed on-screen, he started an a goofy, cowardly and inexperienced Watcher, and turned into a beard wearing badass who was willing to make the tough decisions. I would much rather watch a character who develops on-screen than one who's backstory is his most interesting aspect.

 

[Kairos]

Show me Giles pulling out dual guns and fighting the Beast in slow motion. Until then, no contest.

Swords>guns. Giles can beat Wesley in a swordfight. With a book in his other hand. Game over.

 

[Chosen Enemy]

To me, it's not about who's more of a badass. But which character seems better, more interesting, with more personality. I'm not saying Wesley has none, but like I explained in my first post, Wesley's characters is just not as interesting anymore since he moved to Angel. He might be cooler, sexier, braver on Angel, but it kinda bores me, because that's not main reasons for why I like characters.

Giles, even though was a little ruined in season 7, IMO, kept being interesting. Not as much, because I myself found him less likeable. But still, Wesley is not as interesting to me as he was on Buffy season 3.

 

[patriot1123]

[MENTION=10542]Hale Caesar[/MENTION] It must have been difficult to respond so specifically to points that were "vague" and "random," but you did a good job and made some fair points.

It still sounds like, though, at the end of the day, you and at least some of the others prefer Wesley because of his incredibly unbelievable "character development" (read: re-invention as a completely different person) and because you dislike seasons 6 and 7 Giles.

I love both characters, and there are things about Wesley that I like better. The "love of his life" story arc for him was longer, more complex, and more dramatic than the one for Giles. I LOVED dark!Wes in seasons 3 and 4. And I loved how heroic he was in NFA.

I guess, for me, I'm just grateful we can even have this discussion: that the writers gave us (IMO) two delightful, wonderful characters.

 

[Kana]

To me, it's not about who's more of a badass. But which character seems better, more interesting, with more personality. I'm not saying Wesley has none, but like I explained in my first post, Wesley's characters is just not as interesting anymore since he moved to Angel. He might be cooler, sexier, braver on Angel, but it kinda bores me, because that's not main reasons for why I like characters.

Giles, even though was a little ruined in season 7, IMO, kept being interesting. Not as much, because I myself found him less likeable. But still, Wesley is not as interesting to me as he was on Buffy season 3.

That's interesting because I always felt Wes was more fleshed out on Ats. In his father we see the root for both his initial major traits: his insecurity and his ruthless Ulititarian principles.

I've always found him an intriguing and complex character, who unlike Giles was mainly guided by his intellect.

I do believe his descent into darkness and the decisions he made because of it, were due to his lack development in terms of emotional maturity.

His relationship with Lilah was perhaps one of my favourite in the verse. I found the ending to be more relatable than the love=redemption storylines. To be honest, I could write an essay on these two but in short I liked the bittersweet ending. It was moving that he tried to save her, but realistically, you can't save someone from themselves.

I love Giles, but I just enjoyed watching Wes more. I found his development to be entirely realistic and he was relatively consistently written (I've seen characters that were much more poorly written) so love Wes!!!!