Wesley vs. Giles

[Chosen Enemy]

That's interesting because I always felt Wes was more fleshed out on Ats. In his father we see the root for both his initial major traits: his insecurity and his ruthless Ulititarian principles.

I've always found him an intriguing and complex character, who unlike Giles was mainly guided by his intellect.

I do believe his descent into darkness and the decisions he made because of it, were due to his lack development in terms of emotional maturity.

His relationship with Lilah was perhaps one of my favourite in the verse. I found the ending to be more relatable than the love=redemption storylines. To be honest, I could write an essay on these two but in short I liked the bittersweet ending. It was moving that he tried to save her, but realistically, you can't save someone from themselves.

I love Giles, but I just enjoyed watching Wes more. I found his development to be entirely realistic and he was relatively consistently written (I've seen characters that were much more poorly written) so love Wes!!!!

Again, I'm not saying he was an empty character, just that he wasn't as interesting and I don't enjoy him as much anymore, because the change was from being goofy and ridiculous that made me laugh everytime, to someone much more serious. It's like he's suddenly too tragic to my taste, and not in a really interesting way.

But then, that's why I like or dislike characters, I need them to fascinate me and Wesley just didn't. Not that I was always that fascinated by Giles, but the poll in this thread asks which I like more. And that is Giles.

 

[patriot1123]

Again, I'm not saying he was an empty character, just that he wasn't as interesting and I don't enjoy him as much anymore, because the change was from being goofy and ridiculous that made me laugh everytime, to someone much more serious. It's like he's suddenly too tragic to my taste, and not in a really interesting way.

But then, that's why I like or dislike characters, I need them to fascinate me and Wesley just didn't. Not that I was always that fascinated by Giles, but the poll in this thread asks which I like more. And that is Giles.

That raises a really good question - what is it, that makes for a favorite character for any of us? For me, it's definitely not how "interesting" the character is. If it were, I suppose
Spike or perhaps even Faith would be my favorite character.

But what is it? Do I look for qualities in a fictional character that I look for in real life? Only to some extent. I like kindness and a sense of humor in both; but in real life I do not require my friends to be courageous and heroic. 🙂

It just boils down to that same old, beautiful fact: it's variety that makes the world go around. We all approach things a little differently.

 

[Hale Caesar]

Again, I'm not saying he was an empty character, just that he wasn't as interesting and I don't enjoy him as much anymore, because the change was from being goofy and ridiculous that made me laugh everytime, to someone much more serious. It's like he's suddenly too tragic to my taste, and not in a really interesting way

So a good character is someone who makes you laugh?

But then, that's why I like or dislike characters, I need them to fascinate me and Wesley just didn't. Not that I was always that fascinated by Giles, but the poll in this thread asks which I like more. And that is Giles.

Is your definition of fascination actually laughter? I think it is.

 

[Bexieh]

I prefer Giles because I've always liked him throughout the show, but with Wes it's an on and off sort of thing. I liked him in early Angel seasons but other than that I wasn't really a fan to be honest. By s4 of Angel I just didn't like him a bit. I can't really explain why, he just bothered me. Whereas I see Giles as a sort of father figure I'd like to have, kinda. Especially in the middle-ish seasons.

 

[Chosen Enemy]

So a good character is someone who makes you laugh?

Is your definition of fascination actually laughter? I think it is.

No. I'm saying a certain character who makes me laugh is much more fun for me to watch and love than a character who doesn't. In real life, don't you want to be around someone who makes you laugh?

A good character is so many things. As a person who likes to explore characters, or couples and storylines and making up theories and not just watch them for the fun of it, I manage to come to conclusions about all kinds of aspects. Including what a good and interesting character is to me. I've said it before, but take Faith, for example. I've never liked her and never will. But then I started thinking about her, just like I do with many things in life, not just with Buffy, and I understood how good of a character she is. That's why I wrote an article about her here on BB. While I was writing, I got to understand her character even better, and even come up with more theories about her, while writing.

So I don't just watch the show and think: he makes me laugh. Or, he's hot. Or, he's ridiculous. I actually try to figure out characters (and couples, and episodes, etc.). And as someone who used to write scripts and stories, I guess this is what I always do, I explore the aspects. I actually learned that from Joss and Buffy. Because I see and notice the deepth of things in it; that things make sense, and somehow you can always explain stuff, stuff that I try to explain. That's why I took inspiration from Joss and Buffy. It makes the show and the characters even more amazing to me. And that makes me appreciate even characters that I don't like (like Faith). Like in real life, you can't judge someone until you get to know them. I admit, not all characters that I don't like is because they're not interesting or not good characters. But it usually is this way. But I don't hate aspects of the show before I try to understand it and analyze them.

Call me crazy, but that's what I'm like.
I got really into details here, but I hope you now understand better why I think the things I think when it comes to Buffy (or other things).

 

[EvilBuffy]

I voted Wesley. Even though I love Giles (including S6 and S7) I was more entertained by Wesley. He was all over the place and I just couldn't help to become much more invested in Wes and his journey than I was in Giles.

 

[Icarium]

And that's all Giles had, an awesome backstory, because his development on the show is pretty much non-existent, he spends the whole show trying to find a purpose and never finds it.

Non-existent? Really? So deciding to go fight the Master instead of Buffy in Prophecy Girl isn't development? Supporting Buffy instead of harping on her to kill Angel ASAP? Being fired by the Council but staying to help Buffy nevertheless? Feeling useless in S4 and then getting a new job and reconnecting with Buffy and Willow in S5? Yes, Giles's arc doesn't lead to such an extreme transformations as Wesley's but a character doesn't need to change radically to have a compelling development.

As for the poll, I just can't vote. I rewatch BtVS far more often than AtS but I also like Wesley far more than any other AtS character. If I didn't pretend that S6-7 never happened Giles would lose like a million points and the choice would have been simple. Let's say it's a tie.

 

[Taake]

I went with "I can't decide" but as soon as I had voted I kind of changed my mind in favor of Wesley, I just love his entire arc and whereas - through the seasons - my love and attachment to his character grows, it's the opposite for Giles. For me he starts out great, but then I like him less and less, and by the time of s8 I couldn't really be bothered anymore with what was happening to him.

So yeah, I guess, my vote not withstanding, Wesley is the guy for me. His character is awesome, has a rich background and personality and he's one of the biggest reasons why Angel is such a great show to me.

 

[Hale Caesar]

Non-existent? Really? So deciding to go fight the Master instead of Buffy in Prophecy Girl isn't development? Supporting Buffy instead of harping on her to kill Angel ASAP? Being fired by the Council but staying to help Buffy nevertheless? Feeling useless in S4 and then getting a new job and reconnecting with Buffy and Willow in S5? Yes, Giles's arc doesn't lead to such an extreme transformations as Wesley's but a character doesn't need to change radically to have a compelling development.

Giles had no character development. In the first 3 seasons Giles had a defined role as guardian/mentor/father-figure, when the Watchers Council fired him it meant nothing he may have lost the title of "watcher" but he was the exact same character because he was still protecting Buffy. In season 4 his character regresses once Buffy starts to grow up he loses purpose, the Scoobies are taking the next step in their lives, finding new relationships, Buffy even finds a new mentor (temporarily), Giles is dealing with feeling unwanted and can't even develop a meaningful relationship with anyone new. He didn't develop in season 4, he went back. In season 5 I wouldn't say he develops either, he just goes back to the same role he had in the first 3 seasons, except this time he is in a Magic Shop instead of a library. In season 6 he regresses again he abandons the role he had in the first 3 seasons, he leaves Buffy at her most vulnerable (I know this is debated, but I think he should have stayed), and whatever he does in England could not have been more important than helping Buffy protect the world. In season 7 he comes back a shadow of his former self, he stands around and has nothing to contribute, he has not been in any meaningful relationships since Jenny and the people that he would consider his family and friends have all found more important people in their lives. Hell, Buffy disowns him and tells him she has nothing to learn from him at that very moment he no longer has any purpose in life, people don't value him the way they use to and Buffy doesn't need him anymore. What has he accomplished in 7 seasons? Nothing.

Giles backstory was a nice idea, but we only see glimpses of Giles being badass, and we never get a detailed history of what happened and it never plays a big part in the show. Giles is simply a poorly written character. The only reason people like him is because Anthony Head is an incredibly talented and charismatic actor, and Joss has written some great dialogue for the character. I like Giles, but when you dissect his character, he isn't that special

 

[patriot1123]

The only reason people like him is because Anthony Head is an incredibly talented and charismatic actor, and Joss has written some great dialogue for the character.

Perhaps you should not presume to speak for others? I do adore Anthony Stewart Head, but I've listed (both on this thread and in other places) many, many other reasons that I love Giles as a character. I would guess that Giles's popularity (and he is a popular character) stems from many reasons, not just Anthony's (undisputed) awesomeness. Giles is pretty much my favorite fictional character of all time, which I can't say for King Uther of Merlin even though he is also played by Anthony Head.

 

[EvilWillow]

Wesley. I grew tired of Giles and he was a huge ass in the later seasons. His character changed for the bad. Wesley changed for the better. In Buffy, he was a pompous, wimp, who ran the other way at danger. That was so not the case by Ats s5.

And I might add....Wesley season 3 of Angel....YUM.

 

[Chosen Enemy]

Wesley. I grew tired of Giles and he was a huge ass in the later seasons. His character changed for the bad. Wesley changed for the better. In Buffy, he was a pompous, wimp, who ran the other way at danger. That was so not the case by Ats s5.

And I might add....Wesley season 3 of Angel....YUM.

I kinda saw it as a bad thing. Do they really need so many cool badass evil fighters on Ats? "In Buffy he was a pompous, wimp, who ran the other way at danger"-that's what I found more entertaining than another evil fighter.

 

[EvilWillow]

I kinda saw it as a bad thing. Do they really need so many cool badass evil fighters on Ats? "In Buffy he was a pompous, wimp, who ran the other way at danger"-that's what I found more entertaining than another evil fighter.

But at the same time, Giles became less of a bad ass and less of an evil fighter. So you could say the same thing about him on that principle.

 

[Icarium]

Giles had no character development. In the first 3 seasons Giles had a defined role as guardian/mentor/father-figure, when the Watchers Council fired him it meant nothing he may have lost the title of "watcher" but he was the exact same character because he was still protecting Buffy.

You seem to have a very odd idea of what constitutes character development. Giles deciding that he has spent enough time "wading in those old books" and wanting to fight the Master is character development. Ditto for trying to ask Jenny out. Ditto for kicking the crap out of Ethan Rayne, dealing with Jenny's death, dealing with Buffy's disappearance, Angel's return, the loss of both of his jobs, etc. It wasn't always written terribly well, mind you, but that's not really the point.

He didn't develop in season 4, he went back.

Character development doesn't always equal character improvement.

What has he accomplished in 7 seasons? Nothing.

You mean apart from being vital in saving the world on a number of occasions? If you are going to play this game, what did Wesley accomplish? Being killed in a rather stupid fashion?

 

[Chosen Enemy]

But at the same time, Giles became less of a bad ass and less of an evil fighter. So you could say the same thing about him on that principle.

I agree that Giles' character went downhill big time. I stopped liking him in season 7 completely and was kinda sorry he wasn't the First after all. But he's changed to a character who's not like the other characters, this hasn't changed, they kept him different from the others.
With Wesley, they took the original and different character from Buffy S3, and made it into another cool evil fighter in the mix of the Fang Gang.

EvilWillow agrees: Btw, it's interesting that you and I finally disagree on something. I didn't think it possible

It wasn't easy for me either 🙂

 

[EvilWillow]

agree that Giles' character went downhill big time. I stopped liking him in season 7 completely and was kinda sorry he wasn't the First after all. But he's changed to a character who's not like the other characters, this hasn't changed, they kept him different from the others.
With Wesley, they took the original and different character from Buffy S3, and made it into another cool evil fighter in the mix of the Fang Gang.

Well it wasn't really as cliche as you claim. Wesley did some things that were EXTREMELY out of character. (kidnapping Conner, sleeping with Lilah)

And let's not forget he was the sole and only reason that Angel didn't remain at the bottom of the ocean.

I don't recall Giles accomplishing anything substantial after season 3. He may have dosed Willow, but I think Xander would have gotten her to stop regardless of it. Xander always had a special place in Willow's heart. 🙂

 

[Hale Caesar]

You seem to have a very odd idea of what constitutes character development. Giles deciding that he has spent enough time "wading in those old books" and wanting to fight the Master is character development. Ditto for trying to ask Jenny out. Ditto for kicking the crap out of Ethan Rayne, dealing with Jenny's death, dealing with Buffy's disappearance, Angel's return, the loss of both of his jobs, etc. It wasn't always written terribly well, mind you, but that's not really the point.

Did he really develop when he wanted to fight the Master and Ethan? He's already been established as a fighter from his Ripper days. And did he really get over Jenny's death? Because he never started a meaningful relationship with anyone else.

Character development doesn't always equal character improvement.

Wrong. Look up the definition of development.

1. to bring out the capabilities or possibilities of; bring to a more advanced or effective state: to develop natural resources; to develop one's musical talent.
2.
to cause to grow or expand: to develop one's muscles.

Did Giles become more effective? Grow? Expand? I didn't think so.

You mean apart from being vital in saving the world on a number of occasions? If you are going to play this game, what did Wesley accomplish? Being killed in a rather stupid fashion?

What are you talking about? Wesley played a very similar role to Giles. Wesley started off as a researcher for Angel and eventually started to go out and fight demons with Angel and Gunn. Both of these characters helped save the world on numerous occasions.

And you misunderstand me. When I say Giles accomplished nothing in his life I mean in terms of his relationships. He has never found a woman he loves (after Jenny) and been able to share his life with her, he doesn't have any children that he can pass his knowledge to, but lets work under the assumption he doesn't want any of these things. The scoobies are the closest thing he has to a family, but everyone has moved on and found more meaningful relationships and can no longer spend as much time with Giles anymore. Buffy was his purpose in life, he helped raise and protect her, and in season 7 she (as I said before) disowned him and no longer needed his help. So at the end of season 7 everyone that Giles has valued has moved on and found something more important. Where does that leave Giles? He hasn't found love, or blood family and the career he valued most (protecting Buffy) is no longer available to him

 

[Chosen Enemy]

Well it wasn't really as cliche as you claim. Wesley did some things that were EXTREMELY out of character. (kidnapping Conner, sleeping with Lilah)

And let's not forget he was the sole and only reason that Angel didn't remain at the bottom of the ocean.

I don't recall Giles accomplishing anything substantial after season 3. He may have dosed Willow, but I think Xander would have gotten her to stop regardless of it. Xander always had a special place in Willow's heart. 🙂

I didn't say it was a cliche or that he didn't do good things OR that Giles was such a hero. And of course Wesley wasn't as boring as you think I'm saying, far from that. I'm just not as impressed by the originality of the character itself. They took an original character and turned it into another charcter that has no real special difference than the rest of the cast. They were all heroes, fighting evil, holding weapons while they do, brave. Yeah, they have different personalities. But they all did the same thing.

 

[Icarium]

Did he really develop when he wanted to fight the Master and Ethan? He's already been established as a fighter from his Ripper days

He has? Whom did he fight back then? He fell in with a bad crowd, that's about all we know about his Ripper days, unless you count the S9 comics. And in any event if a character has spent 20 years wading in books and then decides to go back to fighting that's very much a case of character development.

Wrong. Look up the definition of development.

I would beg to differ - "Character development is, by definition, the change in characterization of a Dynamic Character, who changes over the course of a narrative. At its core, it shows a character changing. Most narrative fiction in any media will feature some display of this.

While the definition of "good" and "bad" character development is subjective, it's generally agreed upon that good character development is believable and rounds out a well-written character. Bad character development leads to the feeling that someone is manipulating the events to their own whims, or even reduces the character's believability."

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CharacterDevelopment

I know TV Tropes is not gospel truth but for me at least character development has absolutely nothing to do with the character becoming better or worse. It basically means the character changes in a way that makes sense given the circumstances.

When I say Giles accomplished nothing in his life I mean in terms of his relationships. He has never found a woman he loves (after Jenny) and been able to share his life with her, he doesn't have any children that he can pass his knowledge to

Neither does Wesley. Or any major Buffyverse character for that matter, except for Angel.

He hasn't found love, or blood family and the career he valued most (protecting Buffy) is no longer available to him

It's quite available in S8. Or Chosen for that matter. Not that I disagree that Giles's character was thrashed in those seasons but you are creating a strawman here because the Buffy-Giles breach wasn't portrayed as irreparable.

What are you talking about? Wesley played a very similar role to Giles. Wesley started off as a researcher for Angel and eventually started to go out and fight demons with Angel and Gunn. Both of these characters helped save the world on numerous occasions.

Which was basically my point. I find it ridiculous to claim Giles accomplished nothing when his main goal was keeping Buffy alive and helping save people and sometimes the world.

 

[Hale Caesar]

He has? Whom did he fight back then? He fell in with a bad crowd, that's about all we know about his Ripper days, unless you count the S9 comics. And in any event if a character has spent 20 years wading in books and then decides to go back to fighting that's very much a case of character development.

We know that he was deeply involved in magic, he got good enough to summon demons, that takes time and investment. In Band Candy was saw Ripper, he was a badass, he didn't care about rules and wasn't polite. He also had to (naturally) train with the Watchers council because he was responsible for training Buffy. And Giles is a smart character, so by the time he came to Sunnydale he was already ready to beat the crap out of people if the situation called for it.

I would beg to differ - "Character development is, by definition, the change in characterization of a Dynamic Character, who changes over the course of a narrative. At its core, it shows a character changing. Most narrative fiction in any media will feature some display of this.

While the definition of "good" and "bad" character development is subjective, it's generally agreed upon that good character development is believable and rounds out a well-written character. Bad character development leads to the feeling that someone is manipulating the events to their own whims, or even reduces the character's believability."

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.ph...terDevelopment

I know TV Tropes is not gospel truth but for me at least character development has absolutely nothing to do with the character becoming better or worse. It basically means the character changes in a way that makes sense given the circumstances.

To be honest I will trust in the literal definition of the word. I believe character development means to become something better (or effective from the definition I posted before)

Neither does Wesley. Or any major Buffyverse character for that matter, except for Angel.

Wesley had feelings for Fred long before they started dating. He finally got into a relationship with her and she dies...and then he dies like 4 episodes later (or something like that. Giles has had 2 full seasons of idle time where he had nothing going on and he never found someone.

It's quite available in S8. Or Chosen for that matter. Not that I disagree that Giles's character was thrashed in those seasons but you are creating a strawman here because the Buffy-Giles breach wasn't portrayed as irreparable.

He is available in season 8, but Buffy and him were not on good terms and he eventually found that Faith needed help. Then in season 9 he died, and because his relationship with Buffy was so bad he ended up leaving all of his possessions to Faith. So yes, the Buffy/Giles relationship was not repaired because they simply never resolved their issues.

Which was basically my point. I find it ridiculous to claim Giles accomplished nothing when his main goal was keeping Buffy alive and helping save people and sometimes the world.

You misunderstand me. This post is in regards to you saying Wesley never accomplished anything. I was merely saying that both Giles and Wesley have helped on their respective shows. When I say gives accomplished nothing I mean in his personal life.