What character do you think was given the best and least break by the writers?

Best Treatment: Easily Spike. He should have been staked ages ago, or just been a badass recurring villain.

Worst Treatment: That's a tough one; but Cordy (they completely annihilated her all because Charisma was pregnant in real life) This didn't just destroy the character, but also the story in s4 got all kinds of wacky and wonky
Spike was so good that instead of being just a Villain he became a hero & some would say more so then Angel who was picked by the PTB to be a hero.
The S4 story was so wrong it hurtful watching it & then when they bring Cordy back they kill her off right after . Which was the final straw for me .

Also I think they screwed Gunn over as well not giving him the scenes like the did Wesley. I not going to talk about Xander myself.
 
Showrunners always keep an ear to the ground for characters who are more popular than expected in a show and adjust the writing to give star treatment to that character.

For example, Wayne Rodgers was originally supposed to be the star of M*A*S*H playing the part of Trapper John but he was run over by Alan Alda who played the part of Hawkeye Pierce. Alan was simply a more commanding presence in the story.

Golden Girls was supposed to be a starring platform for Bea Arthur who had completed the series "Maude" and played the same character. She got cast along with Rue McClanaghan, Betty White and Estelle Getty and gradually got demoted to third or fourth place in the cast. (Rue was not given that much to work with.) One of the signs that stardom has shifted to another character is the new star gets all the best lines. Consider this exchange:

Bea: You shouldn't be eating that, it's full of preservatives.
Estelle: When you get to my age, you need all the preservatives you can get!

The original star has become the "straight man" and the new star gets all the best lines. And Betty White is still on the air at age 95 and is a popular favourite.

So what does this have to do with Buffy? Obviously the writers were happy with Spike because he got the star treatment, displacing all of the core four from the earlier seasons. Andrew got a moderate boost as well but probably more because Joss liked him. On Angel, Wesley got to transition from the wimp he played on BtVS to the badass he became in AtS. Bedding Lilah while he had Justine locked up in another room was definitely an "expanded role" as they call this kind of shift to de facto stardom. Cordelia got dropped due to a pregnancy that would have required a massive rewrite. Lorne survived but was not eh presence he had been earlier. And Buffy herself? She was always a commanding presence even when her downfall came in the last two seasons. The same could be said of Angel on his own show although Spike gave him a bit of a run in Season 5.

A character can gain status by being a favourite of either the viewers or the showrunner and sometimes even the writers. And that's how it played out.
 
Best Treatment:

Spike
Wesley
Buffy
Faith

Worst Treatment:

Cordelia
Gunn
Xander
Lorne
 
I think myself they should have not only written more stuff for Dawn but given her some stuff that showed her in a different light ie not Buffy whiny little sister .
 
Buffy got the worse treatment. She is the MAIN character, and by the end of the show she was just a device used for other character's arcs (cough Spike cough). She turns from a happy teen to a traumatized, depressed, cold and weary and sad character, mistreated by her friends, her lovers and the writers. She's always forgiving and kind and brave (and the writers force her to forgive and "love" her abuser) and she gets nothing back, and never gets to come back to who she was. They loved breaking her over and over again. Other characters, ie Fred, Cordelia etc., were also treated badly, but imo not as bad because it was usually one thing that ruined their arc, and not seasons worth of systematic breaking down. Justice for Buffy!!! Even the simple fact that her last word on her own show was "Spike" makes me roaring mad.

Which comes to the best treated character, Spike. Spike dominated the last two seasons, at the expense of the main character ad hero's mental health and happiness. I don't even want to go in depth into it. We all know what I'm talking about...
 
crazysoulless
crazysoulless
[No message]
Sounds like they should have changed the name of the show to Spike since it seems like he was the main star 🙂
 
I've been watching some vampire movie reviews and a trend that increases with time (noticeable by the 1990s, and full on by the 2000s) I'm noticing is that many people love psychopaths, especially if they're hot looking, and doubly so if it's a vampire. I can see now why the remake of Fright Night had to remove any trace of Jerry the Vampire's charisma and ability to connect to other people that the original Jerry had, because they HAD to make him a creep for him to be seen as the bad guy. If they made him like the first Jerry then the modern audience would be on his side no matter what horrible thing he did.

(Interesting enough, one that featured a clan of ugly vampires made them not so bad looking as they were in the source material, one main character almost good looking, though it was clear from the human characters that they found him hideous despite this, which suggests he was much more hideous looking--like in the source material--than he was shown to the TV audience. The fear must've been if he really was ugly then he'd be hated no matter how good he was, or at least no more popular than Clem--especially as he was a serious, brooding vampire rather than comic relief, so he had to either be hot or despised.)

In case it's not clear why I'm pointing this out, I mean to say I now realize that Spike's popularity was inevitable from the start.
 
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So you saying Spike a psychopath ? I thought that was what all Vampires were from what I seen.
About the only way he was different was & I don't know the first time they did so was we saw his human face while most we only saw their Vamp faces .
 
So you saying Spike a psychopath ? I thought that was what all Vampires were from what I seen.
About the only way he was different was & I don't know the first time they did so was we saw his human face while most we only saw their Vamp faces .

Yes, I'm saying Spike is a violent psychopath, though a charismatic one who many find hot looking, and that makes a difference. The chip didn't change that, though as Buffy put it, Spike was like a serial killer in prison (and a convenient if hokey plot device to help explain why he wasn't being dusted as he should've been).

And yes, vampires were, as far as I can tell, psychopaths, though some measure of love and loyalty (and even worship) was possible, at least for some of them (the way Angelus and Darla screwed each other over at times while also being loyal is too complex to easily describe). Some vampires managed to find a niche in which to live peacefully in society (like those vampire brothels), but that doesn't necessarily mean they're not psychopaths, they just found an easier way to exist that gave them a lot of convenience (and the drugs were supposed to be fun for them as well as the humans they drank from). Not all psychopaths are violent. One doesn't have to have empathy to realize it's in one's best interest to restrain certain urges, and some psychopaths have a lot of self-control (and if they play their cards right then they can use the system to facilitate themselves, and Russell Winters did that, though he did groom victims and have snacks on those he thought he could get away with, but otherwise paid taxes and didn't make waves).

It should go without saying that I don't mean to include vampires with a soul. Though I saw s7 Spike as a jerk, I no longer saw him as a psychopath.

And please, let's not get onto a debate on what the word psychopathy actually means as I'm aware how even professionals can't seem to agree on it (another strike against psychiatry), I'm using it in the common way it's used. And let's not also forget what I actually said about people loving psychopaths, as long as they're hot, and doubly so if they're vampires.
 
Best treatment - Spike. Blatant example of character assassinating literally the entire main cast just to accommodate the writers' pet.

Worst intentional treatment - Xander. He is basically a footnote for the majority of the show, even though he is supposed to be a main character.

Worst unintentional treatment - Willow. Let's turn our lovable, smart sidekick into a dumb junkie rapist who comes very close to destroying the whole world and is forgiven in five seconds. Why, what a great idea Joss, the Emmy would be yours!

Giles got a pretty shitty treatment in the end too - I am aware ASH wanted to leave but killing off Giles would have been far better than Pod!Giles we got in S6-7.
 
crazysoulless
crazysoulless
I loved Willow's slow descent into evil until I realized they were going to absolve her as though she were the victim
I've been watching some vampire movie reviews and a trend that increases with time (noticeable by the 1990s, and full on by the 2000s) I'm noticing is that many people love psychopaths, especially if they're hot looking, and doubly so if it's a vampire. I can see now why the remake of Fright Night had to remove any trace of Jerry the Vampire's charisma and ability to connect to other people that the original Jerry had, because they HAD to make him a creep for him to be seen as the bad guy. If they made him like the first Jerry then the modern audience would be on his side no matter what horrible thing he did.

(Interesting enough, one that featured a clan of ugly vampires made them not so bad looking as they were in the source material, one main character almost good looking, though it was clear from the human characters that they found him hideous despite this, which suggests he was much more hideous looking--like in the source material--than he was shown to the TV audience. The fear must've been if he really was ugly then he'd be hated no matter how good he was, or at least no more popular than Clem--especially as he was a serious, brooding vampire rather than comic relief, so he had to either be hot or despised.)

In case it's not clear why I'm pointing this out, I mean to say I now realize that Spike's popularity was inevitable from the start.


What I never understood about this, is Angel is incredibly more attractive than Spike. Like they aren't even in the same league (now I know this is subjective), but I feel if you take out their personalities/characterizations and just simply place David and James side by side David wins the sexy contest.

It's something about these psychopathic vampire men. Like I have never understood the craze over Damon Salvatore (He is on the vampire diaries). I love a sadistic, twisted, charismatic villain. But, I don't want them with my heroine or my hero.

Plus, I usually find the "damaged" vampires like (Stefan, TVD and Angel) more interesting and complex.
While I find the bad boy trope like (Damon, TVD and Spike) over played and one dimensional.
To each their own I suppose; but this obsession writers get over their psychopathic vampire male love interest is usually detrimental to the show...
 
What I never understood about this, is Angel is incredibly more attractive than Spike. Like they aren't even in the same league (now I know this is subjective), but I feel if you take out their personalities/characterizations and just simply place David and James side by side David wins the sexy contest.

It's something about these psychopathic vampire men. Like I have never understood the craze over Damon Salvatore (He is on the vampire diaries). I love a sadistic, twisted, charismatic villain. But, I don't want them with my heroine or my hero.

Plus, I usually find the "damaged" vampires like (Stefan, TVD and Angel) more interesting and complex.
While I find the bad boy trope like (Damon, TVD and Spike) over played and one dimensional.
To each their own I suppose; but this obsession writers get over their psychopathic vampire male love interest is usually detrimental to the show...

My GUESS on it is it comes from a certain media track (though this isn't the only possibility, adult role models can create a preference for better and worse, but generally speaking media, adult role models, and peers tend to overall mesh despite cosmetic differences, but that's probably less true today than for my generation and earlier). Among archetypes in major faerie tale romances that can translate into many Disney movies includes the knight in shining armor and the beast/bad boy. A woman typically finds her place by being proper and getting carried away by a prince to be taken care of, or she sacrifices all for say the Beast (there are different versions of this) that then results in the same reward.

As one gets older, assuming one is actually interested in romance and/or thinking that's the primary purpose of one's future, then the romance genres aimed at girls tend to cater to both of these that seem to be the most popular, one being a knight in shining armor (as Angel could be), or the Bad Boy (like Spike). A few other archetypes are also popular.

The Bad Boy is typically portrayed as misunderstood. Females (I suppose gay men as well) are gifted with the ability to look into a guy's butt and abs to see into his soul, who he really is, and if she can "change" him (yeah, I'm being a bit tongue in cheek there, but I think there is something to that, and it's something many people, men and women, do, with different standards applying to people based on how they look). People don't like him so if she does then he can appreciate her, and come to love her as unconditionally as she did him...and if she had to sacrifice friends and family (as Buffy does with Spike, following the typical Bad Boy Love Story formula--especially how it's pretty much the fault of everyone else) to prove her undying devotion, then better still, and better the reward (it also allows the author/screenwriter to throw in some drama to keep an audience). Of course a bad boy can also indulge secret sexual desires, and perhaps can be (unreasonably in many cases, though not in fantasy, of course!) expected to initiate them, and thus take responsibility for such things, or at least be safe to share herself in that way. This also seems to be the favorite of those who want obsessive, passionate love as well (just one more reason to cut others out if they can).

Imagine growing up with that, to insert yourself in the narrative over and over (by book, movie, etc), so putting yourself in the ideal (if unrealistic) situation over and over, the brain is habitual, and can imprint on this...and other sources have their own affect which often strengthen it. This is why some women can love Twilight and 50 Shades of Grey (and I've seen much worse from romances I've checked out from the library), though I can see why some very young girls might relate to Bella (as Edward treats her in a way much how adults treat children with orders, over protectiveness while also being a bit scary, lack of privacy, even punishment, so to them that's just normal whether a guy is a love interest or not). Those like me who grew up with a different media track (and also those I know who were raised more on academic works) not only fail to see the appeal, but are gobsmacked that such books make the bestseller list. In retrospect, I'm glad I was shunned by girls from age 6-10 as I think it helped me a lot (by keeping me away from a lot of girl media and expectations), though it has contributed to why it's hard for me to fit into general society.

I don't consider myself "above" this social programming, I just consider myself lucky to have escaped most of this.


I didn't just pull this out of my butt, I've thought a lot about it, and for years I thought it might be tied to sexual orientation (though I couldn't see how, just that I noticed trends tied to orientation), though I looked at enough straight women and lesbian (etc) exceptions and realized what the actual common factors (as far as I could tell) were was for all of us (whatever we liked), though this is ultimately my best guess in trying to figure this out.

And as I had to make myself appealing to the general public, I spent some significant time studying the way people think, including men's and women's magazines, and the bestsellers (fiction and nonfiction, and that includes the romance genre), as well as enduring some TV and radio talk shows (since tapping my friends meant other oddballs rather than the general public--don't mistake your social circle for the general public as too many people do, instead look at how the public votes, including with their time and money). I've gleaned many observations about it, and I can now fit into general society, though I never feel fully comfortable there.

Oh, btw...you might like reading Writing a Romance Novel For Dummies (I believe this was the book) that I was lucky enough to find in the library, and was very helpful to me at the time. It describes the different romantic figures (including those like Angel and Spike) and plots, and how appealing they are to the general public (and includes some advice for niche markets), which gives insights into what people in general along with specific audiences (according to market research) want in their books, shows, and movies.
 
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What I never understood about this, is Angel is incredibly more attractive than Spike. Like they aren't even in the same league (now I know this is subjective), but I feel if you take out their personalities/characterizations and just simply place David and James side by side David wins the sexy contest.

It's something about these psychopathic vampire men. Like I have never understood the craze over Damon Salvatore (He is on the vampire diaries). I love a sadistic, twisted, charismatic villain. But, I don't want them with my heroine or my hero.

Plus, I usually find the "damaged" vampires like (Stefan, TVD and Angel) more interesting and complex.
While I find the bad boy trope like (Damon, TVD and Spike) over played and one dimensional.
To each their own I suppose; but this obsession writers get over their psychopathic vampire male love interest is usually detrimental to the show...
Hey, I'm totally with you on this...except, I feel exactly the opposite, lol. That's the fun of subjective opinions, I suppose. I'm not a big fan of the cliched trope of 'tortured' vampires like Angel and Stefan (which is why I prefer Angel on his own show, as I love the depth and growth of his character going beyond the trope) and I find characters like Spike and Damon a million times more complex.
 
Best - Spike who went from a villain that was supposed to die to one of the most developed characters in the entire franchise

Worst - Kendra who appears in only a handful of episodes and doesn't even have the luxury of having her murder be avenged
 
Hey, I'm totally with you on this...except, I feel exactly the opposite, lol. That's the fun of subjective opinions, I suppose. I'm not a big fan of the cliched trope of 'tortured' vampires like Angel and Stefan (which is why I prefer Angel on his own show, as I love the depth and growth of his character going beyond the trope) and I find characters like Spike and Damon a million times more complex.


But that's the whole point. Stefan and Angel grow from their trope of damaged by atoning for their past wrong doings to become champions.

I just feel like Damon and Spike get a pass because they are "hot" I would have much preferred for them to remain as charismatic villains. I personally would have enjoyed their characters more.

But, like I said it's all subjective. To each their own!
 
But that's the whole point. Stefan and Angel grow from their trope of damaged by atoning for their past wrong doings to become champions.

I just feel like Damon and Spike get a pass because they are "hot" I would have much preferred for them to remain as charismatic villains. I personally would have enjoyed their characters more.

But, like I said it's all subjective. To each their own!
Tbh, I only started finding them 'hot' when I fell in love with their characters so, for me at least, their looks have nothing to do with it, lol. But I guess I get where you're coming from, even if I don't agree 🙂
 
Tbh, I only started finding them 'hot' when I fell in love with their characters so, for me at least, their looks have nothing to do with it, lol. But I guess I get where you're coming from, even if I don't agree 🙂

If you have ever been on youtube, these young girls (I would say preteens-teens) seem to only love Damon because he is hot and do not like Stefan because he is "ugly" . Those are their words lol. They also get really nasty when you say you prefer Stefan to Damon.
I haven't seen as much nastiness when it comes to Spike and Angel. Probably because that fandom is a lot older now.

And don't get me wrong, I think Spike is just fine as a stand a lone character, so is Damon. I just don't like what they turned my heroines into and what their relationships with the heroines did to their respective shows.
 
spikenbuffy
spikenbuffy
Crazy fans happens with many characters. But I've been shocked to see that people on Youtube blamed Bonnie when Damon bite Bonnie in S1 or blamed Elena in S2 when she didn't forgive that he killed her brother. Same with BTVS: Faith, Angel in reunion.
If you have ever been on youtube, these young girls (I would say preteens-teens) seem to only love Damon because he is hot and do not like Stefan because he is "ugly" . Those are their words lol. They also get really nasty when you say you prefer Stefan to Damon.
I haven't seen as much nastiness when it comes to Spike and Angel. Probably because that fandom is a lot older now.

And don't get me wrong, I think Spike is just fine as a stand a lone character, so is Damon. I just don't like what they turned my heroines into and what their relationships with the heroines did to their respective shows.
I'll admit that I haven't watched past halfway through S4 of TVD, so I can't judge on the Delena thing, besides I'm not a big Elena fan, lol, so I don't really care either way; I just love Damon and his chemistry with other characters like Alaric, Bonnie, Jeremy and so on. Plus, one of my favorite things about TVD is the complex relationship between Stefan and Damon.

Also, I found Stefan attractive right away, so I don't get those silly little girls 😉
 
I'll admit that I haven't watched past halfway through S4 of TVD, so I can't judge on the Delena thing, besides I'm not a big Elena fan, lol, so I don't really care either way; I just love Damon and his chemistry with other characters like Alaric, Bonnie, Jeremy and so on. Plus, one of my favorite things about TVD is the complex relationship between Stefan and Damon.

Also, I found Stefan attractive right away, so I don't get those silly little girls 😉

LOL right? Stefan is gorgeous 😉

I actually liked Damon's relationships with everyone but Elena. He turned her into something unrecognizable. by the end of the show.
I actually was a pretty hard core Bonnie and Damon shipper (platonically and romantically). So it's not like I hated him. I guess I just hated Delena. It became the Delena diaries and that was very boring. I actually liked Elena until s4, that's when my hatred for her really kicked in lol.
 
I actually liked Elena until s4, that's when my hatred for her really kicked in lol.
Then I'll have something to look forward to when I continue the series, cause I never liked her all that much. At times she was less annoying than others, but I love the show for all the other characters, lol. And, again, I agree but the opposite; I only find Stefan interesting when it's not his relationship with Elena 🙂
 
BuffyBot22
BuffyBot22
I like Stefan regardless lol
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