What did you like better: the earlier seasons of Buffy or the later seasons?

@S Rou We did see Tara, I'd forgotten. I thnk that was in a Willow stand alone comic Wonderland, were Willow is given the chance to bring Tara back, just as her guide, but decides not to.
I read about that. She was given the opportunity to do so but it meant ripping tara out of heaven and she likely could never return, which would be completely redundant for Willow because when she dies someday, it would mean she'd go to heaven and Tara would still be trapped here.

If I remember right, doesn't willow break up with Kennedy and tell Buffy something along the lines of "the person I love is someone I'll never see again in this lifetime," or something of that nature?
 
I read about that. She was given the opportunity to do so but it meant ripping tara out of heaven and she likely could never return, which would be completely redundant for Willow because when she dies someday, it would mean she'd go to heaven and Tara would still be trapped here.

If I remember right, doesn't willow break up with Kennedy and tell Buffy something along the lines of "the person I love is someone I'll never see again in this lifetime," or something of that nature?

Yes that's what Willow says to Buffy, but it had a double meaning (IIRC) because at the time Willow was also sleeping with the snake goddess Aluwyn, (cheating on Kennedy) and she thought she wouldn't see her again either. Of course most people think she was talking about Tara, but she could have been talking about Aluwyn
 
Yes that's what Willow says to Buffy, but it had a double meaning (IIRC) because at the time Willow was also sleeping with the snake goddess Aluwyn, (cheating on Kennedy) and she thought she wouldn't see her again either. Of course most people think she was talking about Tara, but she could have been talking about Aluwyn

It was definitely about Aluwyn, IMO.
That line was Willow's response to Buffy asking her why she broke up with Kennedy. Willow says that she broke up with Kennedy because "there's someone else", but if that "someone else" is Tara, then why would that make her break up with Kennedy? Willow already got over her "I can't be with Kennedy because I'm not over Tara" phase in 'Killer In Me'. So, the only interpretation that makes sense is that Willow was talking about Aluwyn, since that would be a good reason to break up with Kennedy - at the end of season 8, Willow realized that she's in love with Aluwyn, after she lost the ability to be with her.
Also, in the final pages of that same issue, we see Willow reading a book with a picture of Aluwyn - implying that she's thinking about Aluwyn and thinking about ways to bring Aluwyn back, and NOT thinking about Tara.
 
It's not only about redemption, it's about character progression within the show, and for Anya and Spike, willingly fighting for the world is a character progression, because they wouldn't/didn't do that when they were first introduced to the show. Their sacrifices may have redeemed them a little, or not at all and redemption may be a continuing process, not a 'one big gesture' thing, that's down to our (and their) individual feelings on the subject.

Yes, you're right it is about personal character progression. Redemption may be a continuing process within their character development and then, as you say, their/our individual feelings about it are key to how we perceive that journey and their progress on it.

Both Spike and Angel are seen to connect themselves to their soulless actions, and as they both retain the demon within their 'mix' alongside the soul and still feel those drives as well, I find that logical. Even though they are distinctly different when souled and neither would make the same choices when they have a souled breadth and depth of emotion to choose not to, it can still make sense that they don't feel fully removed from who they were. In fact, if they were totally separate in every way, the notion of any redemption being needed at all would be bizarre. In contrast, when Anya became human she showed little issue with her past, so her regret and change of heart about returning to being a vengeance demon in S7 stood out as distinct, meaningful progress.

But for when it could ever really be right to say any of them had achieved redemption is as you say subjective. It's too difficult to delineate. A lot comes from the inner meaning leading their choices I think, rather than just being grounded in the outward actions. We saw Spike progress further still in AtS 5, after his sacrifice in the hellmouth, when both he and Angel directly consider the nature of being heroic, the hope of reward and talk of the possibility of inevitable consequences for what they've done. Alongside feeling/knowing they were also victims once themselves, this progress feels more like a sense of deeper self reflection, rather than something attributable to 'bigger' or 'better' actions to make up for what they did in the past. For me, being willing to give everything of yourself and sacrifice attaining your own desires, giving up any/all other opportunities for yourself, for the benefit of others and/or the greater good of a world full of people you don't even know, is just huge. Whether that is reflected in your whole way of life and is repeated or is instead a single act, isn't as important as the underlying attitude and meaning behind the choice(s), the intent and selflessness perhaps. Yes it does fall to that subjective aspect, but that is where the probability of redemption lies for me. The character progression which takes the desire and want to atone and uses that to direct the choice to walk that path, to be on a journey, to want to make a meaningful difference to others. That feels more significant to me as I'm not sure a quantity, an amount needed to 'balance the scales' as such, is really attainable.
 
Yes that's what Willow says to Buffy, but it had a double meaning (IIRC) because at the time Willow was also sleeping with the snake goddess Aluwyn, (cheating on Kennedy) and she thought she wouldn't see her again either. Of course most people think she was talking about Tara, but she could have been talking about Aluwyn
Currently, what is the status of Willow's relationship with the snake goddess thing? Does it even compare to what her relationship with Tara was? Is willow still in love with the snake goddess thing?
 
I don't think Anya is a sociopath. I always thought of her as redeemed from her past.
Anya, Spike and Andrew are straight up sociopaths. All of them have souls and none of them saw anything wrong with the murders they committed. In order to even be on the path to redemption you first have to admit that you did wrong. Dying for whatever reason doesn't redeem you. Because if you don't think you did anything wrong why would you need to be redeemed? Angel and Faith, there is redemption. These other people, nope.
 
Anya, Spike and Andrew are straight up sociopaths. All of them have souls and none of them saw anything wrong with the murders they committed. In order to even be on the path to redemption you first have to admit that you did wrong. Dying for whatever reason doesn't redeem you. Because if you don't think you did anything wrong why would you need to be redeemed? Angel and Faith, there is redemption. These other people, nope.
But what about when Anya was given the opportunity to become a demon again and couldn't go through with it in the end because she actually developed a conscience? This shows growth and progression and that she was, at least, on the road to redemption.
 
I don't see Spike's death on Buffy as a sacrifice. Spike knew Buffy would eventually dump him and that there would be little left for him to do after that happened. Rather than fade into depression and obscurity, he saw his chance to go out with a bang. He got to hold Buffy's hand and be the champion. The reason why he does not immediately return to Buffy after his resurrection is because his big romantic act suddenly seems a little hollow.

As for feeling remorse. Getting his soul back made Angel introverted and mopey. Spike turned bonkers.
 
But what about when Anya was given the opportunity to become a demon again and couldn't go through with it in the end because she actually developed a conscience? This shows growth and progression and that she was, at least, on the road to redemption.
1) You don't just develop a conscience. You either have one or you don't.
2) Anya knows she will have to face Buffy and company again if she became a demon which would likely not end good for her. That's thinking about one's own survival, not redemption.
 
Anya was given the opportunity to become a demon again and couldn't go through with it in the end because she actually developed a conscience? This shows growth and progression and that she was, at least, on the road to redemption.

When did that happen? She was given an opportunity to become a demon again at the end of Hells Bells and TOOK it. She remained a demon until season 7 episode Selfless...it took her slaughtering a house of frat boys before she FINALLY felt remorse. She was willing to die to take it back, but that was the easy way out IMO. Dhoffryn killed Halfrek instead Because that would cause her more suffering than just death.

I don't see much progression after that. She's back to comic relief in the next episode, turns on Buffy Even though she's been mooching off her and cowering under her for protection, and gives a nice little speech in Chosen about how she finally cares about human beings. Nothing stellar IMO.
It was brave and everything that she went out fighting, but I don't see her as having a redemption arc. She really didn't seem that bothered after Selfless over anything she had done.
 
But empathy is surely something that must be learned, no?

I don't think so. Babies have empathy. There have been numerous studies with
Childhood behavior that show children having empathy. Most human beings are born with it...from what I have seen and read, empathy can certainly be stomped out of someone, due to abuse or fetal drug use, or other life traumas that can make a person unable to feel for others. Having your husband cheat on you shouldn't usually drive someone into turning into a demon who slaughters men for centuries.
 
I don't think so. Babies have empathy. There have been numerous studies with
Childhood behavior that show children having empathy. Most human beings are born with it...from what I have seen and read, empathy can certainly be stomped out of someone, due to abuse or fetal drug use, or other life traumas that can make a person unable to feel for others. Having your husband cheat on you shouldn't usually drive someone into turning into a demon who slaughters men for centuries.
Are you sure babies have empathy? Doesn't it take a while before they start understand themselves as beings separate from others? With babies, it can be hard to separate empathy from modelling. There is probably a lot of disagreement as to what is what. A lot of psychologists and pedagogues seem to believe preteens are basically psychopaths, which I totally disagree with, but that is neither here nor there.

You seem to be leaning heavily on the biological side of the nature/nurture debate. Personally, I think interpersonal skills need to be refined through interaction with others ... and through listening, reading, watching large quantities of music, books, movies, poetry, etc 😀 Mostly, I think empathy needs to be learned at a relatively early age, but I know a lot of douchey celebrities that seem to have mellowed with old age. Henry Rollins comes to mind.
 
@WillowFromBuffy am I sure? No. I can't read the minds of infants. Here's a interesting article from the New York Times however.

Researchers Trace Empathy's Roots to Infancy.

I also definitely think environment also helps shape a persons nature, so I'm not only on the biological end of things .Most children won't torture or hurt an animal on purpose, and most people wouldn't either. What stops them? Empathy, the ability to feel and understand how horrible that would be for the creature.

And some people are just born without that ability. You can't teach a sociopath how to love or feel another's pain. They at best will be able to MIMIC the behavior. But I'm no scientist. 🙂
 
My biggest problem with Anya's non-existent redemption story is that she never suffers for what she's done. All she did was die in the final battle. Dying is not suffering. Anya would be suffering if she actually felt bad about the thousands of people she's killed, but Anya never expressed guilt over what she's done. That sounds like a sociopath to me. Her whole little arc on Buffy was not about redemption, it was about learning to be a human again. I don't think she deserved to be a human again, she gave that up to be a killer.
 
But empathy is surely something that must be learned, no?
I'm not talking about humanity as a whole. We were discussing Anya. Anya was human, became a demon, was human again, a demon again and then human once more. Through all of this she had her soul, aka conscience. If she didn't make use of her conscience for over 1000 years, that's not going to suddenly change at the drop of a hat. And I know there is Selfless but frankly I found Selfless totally OOC for Anya. There was nothing before or after that episode that indicated remorse on Anya's part for her past.
 
ON seeing another child fall and hurt himself, Hope, just nine months old, stared, tears welling up in her eyes, and crawled to her mother to be comforted - as though she had been hurt, not her friend.
This it really interesting. It supports my thesis that self involved people are more emphatic than stoic people 😛
@WillowFromBuffyMost children won't torture or hurt an animal on purpose, and most people wouldn't either. What stops them? Empathy, the ability to feel and understand how horrible that would be for the creature.
I would be really careful about trusting this too much. Children can be very cruel, especially to animals, but also to each other. I think it often comes from a lack of understanding. If you put a bunch a school boys on a desert island, it will soon turn into Lord of the Flies.
@WillowFromBuffy And some people are just born without that ability. You can't teach a sociopath how to love or feel another's pain. They at best will be able to MIMIC the behavior. But I'm no scientist. 🙂
Phineas-Gage-with-skull-picture.png
Have you heard the story of Phineas Gage, who lost his capacity for empathy and impulse control after blowing a tube through his head? I like to think that I am a being with a soul, but it turns out we are all dependant on the wiring and chemicals in our head 🙁
 
I don't see Spike's death on Buffy as a sacrifice. Spike knew Buffy would eventually dump him and that there would be little left for him to do after that happened. Rather than fade into depression and obscurity, he saw his chance to go out with a bang. He got to hold Buffy's hand and be the champion. The reason why he does not immediately return to Buffy after his resurrection is because his big romantic act suddenly seems a little hollow.

As for feeling remorse. Getting his soul back made Angel introverted and mopey. Spike turned bonkers.

Spike's death in the Hellmouth was a literal sacrifice - "to give up (something valued) for the sake of other considerations". He didn't definitely have to die, he could have tried to remove the amulet, Buffy suggested he'd done enough in fact, but he wanted to stay and make sure it kept working as the others left. Whether Spike felt there was any real possibility for him and Buffy to have a relationship at that stage is far from the point. He chose to not give it a chance, to not see if it could happen or could be held onto, which is a huge step away from his soulless, selfish attitude and one that he continued to develop afterwards in his choices to explore being a hero, before they eventually ended up back together and in a relationship. To label his S7 death as just a romantic act that on reflection was merely hollow rather than give him any credit for giving up his existence for the benefit of others, to see it just as an opportunity to avoid getting dumped, is one of the most dramatic dismissals of his entire character arc that I've come across.

Getting his soul back threw Angel into such turmoil and confusion that he had a period of time where he tried to return to his vampiric family and select people more 'acceptable' to kill, before he isolated himself and slowly learned how to deal with his confusion. Spike had a totally different path to getting his soul and he struggled to deal with the immediate effects and the hellmouth/The First kept him somewhat unstable and weakened him with the trigger. Both vamps had periods of adjustment and both found that turning off their emotional responses and/or distancing themselves from others at times made it easier. But we also see times when cracks appear and they express remorse and/or we see through their actions and choices how they are trying to be better. Neither get it right all the time, sometimes they get it massively wrong in fact, but they both keep trying.
 
would be really careful about trusting this too much. Children can be very cruel, especially to animals, but also to each other. I think it often comes from a lack of understanding. If you put a bunch a school boys on a desert island, it will soon turn into Lord of the Flies.


I said torture or hurt on purpose. Mischievously pulling a dogs tail or hugging them to tight is very different then lighting a puppy on fire for giggles. Lord of the flies is not the best example to give, that speaks more for mob mentality and survival instincts more than anything else. There was also a big point that was made in that book of the protagonist struggling to keep his humanity and rebelling against the leader of the boys, who was a born sadist.

I agree 100 perfect that trauma to the brain can fundamentally change a person.

But we are off topic 🙂
 
I said torture or hurt on purpose. Mischievously pulling a dogs tail or hugging them to tight is very different then lighting a puppy on fire for giggles.
I was thinking of things like destroying bird nests or tormenting cats. I am glad to say I have never heard of children burning a puppy. I sometimes fear that the fairly civilised circumstances most of us live under are somewhat unnatural for our species, and that one therefore should make sure to teach children the sanctity of all life.
To label his S7 death as just a romantic act that on reflection was merely hollow rather than give him any credit for giving up his existence for the benefit of others, to see it just as an opportunity to avoid getting dumped, is one of the most dramatic dismissals of his entire character arc that I've come across.
I like this. This is new 😛 Nobody has said that to me before.

I just want to clarify that I did not want to say that is was hollow. He clearly believed he was going to die. Spike thinks his sacrifice will appear less meaningful to Buffy if he shows up alive and well to bask in her gratefulness. I like to think of Spike as a romantic hero, not Jesus Christ or Neo from the Matrix. Romantic heroes like grand gestures. This is just how I personally enjoy and understand the character. I think a lot of his words support my theory, but everyone is entitled to their opinion.
 
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