What did you like better: the earlier seasons of Buffy or the later seasons?

I think Anya deserved a lot more credit than what people give her. She did have great character development in her own right. Yes, it wasn't as broading and dramatic and dark as Angel's or Faith's, but she did realize her wrongs and cease them. That shows tremendous growth for someone who mercilessly killed possibly as many as tens of thousands or more people over a thousand year period. She really did change.

I think Anya has proven her worth. Plus she helped Buffy save the world on at least three occasions (the 5, 6, and 7 finales). Hell, in the gift, the whole universe was at stake and she fought to help save it. I think Anya deserves a huge applause. She proved that she really did change and even when she was going o become evil again, in the end she couldn't go through with it because she did develop a conscience and then gave her life in the final battle. This shows tremendous growth.
 
Yes, you're right it is about personal character progression. Redemption may be a continuing process within their character development and then, as you say, their/our individual feelings about it are key to how we perceive that journey and their progress on it.

I think we definitely have to take the characters perception of redemption into account. Neither Spike or Anya believe in wallowing in guilt or self-pity about their crimes, that's just their characterisation and we can't expect them to be as guilt ridden as Angel. Plus we've already seen Angel and the depths of guilt he feels, and I wouldn't want to see a repeat of that with Spike.

Both Spike and Angel are seen to connect themselves to their soulless actions, and as they both retain the demon within their 'mix' alongside the soul and still feel those drives as well, I find that logical. Even though they are distinctly different when souled and neither would make the same choices when they have a souled breadth and depth of emotion to choose not to, it can still make sense that they don't feel fully removed from who they were. In fact, if they were totally separate in every way, the notion of any redemption being needed at all would be bizarre. In contrast, when Anya became human she showed little issue with her past, so her regret and change of heart about returning to being a vengeance demon in S7 stood out as distinct, meaningful progress.

Some of the audience wished Spike and Anya showed more remorse for their crimes, but within the story I didn't feel it necessary. I felt their actions spoke louder than their words. They both died to save the world, that's enough remorse for me, I didn't need long soliliquies about how terrible they feel, thich just wouldn't have fitted with the characterisations we'd previously seen. It was acceptable for Angel because that fitted the character we first met in S1.

But for when it could ever really be right to say any of them had achieved redemption is as you say subjective. It's too difficult to delineate. A lot comes from the inner meaning leading their choices I think, rather than just being grounded in the outward actions. We saw Spike progress further still in AtS 5, after his sacrifice in the hellmouth, when both he and Angel directly consider the nature of being heroic, the hope of reward and talk of the possibility of inevitable consequences for what they've done. Alongside feeling/knowing they were also victims once themselves, this progress feels more like a sense of deeper self reflection, rather than something attributable to 'bigger' or 'better' actions to make up for what they did in the past. For me, being willing to give everything of yourself and sacrifice attaining your own desires, giving up any/all other opportunities for yourself, for the benefit of others and/or the greater good of a world full of people you don't even know, is just huge. Whether that is reflected in your whole way of life and is repeated or is instead a single act, isn't as important as the underlying attitude and meaning behind the choice(s), the intent and selflessness perhaps. Yes it does fall to that subjective aspect, but that is where the probability of redemption lies for me. The character progression which takes the desire and want to atone and uses that to direct the choice to walk that path, to be on a journey, to want to make a meaningful difference to others. That feels more significant to me as I'm not sure a quantity, an amount needed to 'balance the scales' as such, is really attainable.

Redemption is subjective. It depends on how much suffering you want a character to feel, and how entertaining that is to watch on a tv show. We agree that redemption is about putting others before yourself and sacrificing yourself for something/someone that doesn't benefit yourself at all. We see in S11 that Spike tells Buffy and Willow to leave him in the safe zone, to give up their powers to get away, and to me that is so incredibly meaningful for Spike because he puts their wellbeing infront of his own need to be with Buffy and what she does for him in the safe zone.
 
Currently, what is the status of Willow's relationship with the snake goddess thing? Does it even compare to what her relationship with Tara was? Is willow still in love with the snake goddess thing?

Willow loved Aluwyn, deeply, but I think part of that was because she was Will's mentor and Willow was bewitched by her powers. They aren't together now, and Willows had a few girlfriends since then. She's now thinking of a relationship with a human witch in the safe zone, Calliope, but she's got a gf, so Willow's trying to play it cool.
 
1) You don't just develop a conscience. You either have one or you don't.

Not true for Faith, Spike, Anya, Andrew, all of whom developed a conscience. You have to allow for personal growth and change. To say you can never develop a conscience is to say no character can ever change, and that's just not what I see on this tv show - all the characters change, even if you believe the change is for the worse.
 
I don't think so. Babies have empathy. There have been numerous studies with
Childhood behavior that show children having empathy. Most human beings are born with it...from what I have seen and read, empathy can certainly be stomped out of someone, due to abuse or fetal drug use, or other life traumas that can make a person unable to feel for others. Having your husband cheat on you shouldn't usually drive someone into turning into a demon who slaughters men for centuries.

Isn't Anya's story a metaphor for how you shouldn't deal with pain? I know people who have been cheated on, and it changed their personalities, they shut down, built a wall around themselves and saw all relationships as fake, believing no one could be truly happy in a relationship. This was Anya, but taken to the Buffyverse extreme of becomming a vengeance demon. When Xander left her at the alter, she turned to what she knew and her character had progressed so much, she'd developed such a conscience, that she knew vengeance wasn't the answer to her hurt.
 
What goes on between a slayer and a vampire is war. I see no difference between Spike keeping Nikki's coat and a WWII allied soldier keeping a Samurai sword taken from a Japanese soldier (or in fact any soldier disarming an enemy and keeping the weapon). Even if the war is over, the property of his deceased enemy doesn't get thrown away - it is the valuable possession of the victor. Even if the victor later becomes a pacifist, the property of the enemy is a testament to his valour.

I disagree. Spike was not in a war. The SLAYER is in a war, nightly, fighting the forces of evil. Spike purposely sought out danger and the challenge of fighting a slayer , he could have just avoided Slayers if he chose and lived his merry life as vampire. Comparing a vampire to a soldier is not even close to the same thing.

If anything, using your same analogy, Spike is much closer to a Nazi who keeps the teeth of the Jewish victims he burned.

If a SS officer used the excuse " well, we were in a war, hunting Jewish people and murdering Them was just what we did, they were our enemies, I should be able to keep my trophies!!'" People would be appalled and rightfully so.

I'm not trying to be offensive here, I know it's very disturbing imagery and I hope no one is upset with the analogy.

This is the last I'm gonna say on the subject of Spikes coat, it's gotten extremely off topic.
 
Yet, as i re watch the earlier seasons. Every time i watch S2 to S4, hell even some of S5, i keep thinking:
'When I was young, it seemed that life was so wonderful,
A miracle, oh it was beautiful, magical.'
We must have watched very different early Seasons. If what the Scoobies, especially Buffy, had was a wonderful life full of rainbows and puppies then us mere mortals must have a heavenly life in comparison.

Buffy: My life, happens to on occasion, suck beyond the telling of it.

Neither Spike or Anya believe in wallowing in guilt or self-pity about their crimes, that's just their characterisation and we can't expect them to be as guilt ridden as Angel. Plus we've already seen Angel and the depths of guilt he feels, and I wouldn't want to see a repeat of that with Spike.
There is a difference between wallowing and not accepting responsibility and/or being proud of what you were. Anya was always proud of what she did for over 1000 years, I mean we all had to hear about her boasting of her accomplishments. For Spike it's both 'it wasn't me' and he loved being a vampire.

Some of the audience wished Spike and Anya showed more remorse for their crimes, but within the story I didn't feel it necessary. I felt their actions spoke louder than their words. They both died to save the world, that's enough remorse for me, I didn't need long soliliquies about how terrible they feel, thich just wouldn't have fitted with the characterisations we'd previously seen.
Again, how is dying enough remorse? Since neither of them displayed remorse to begin with. Selfless was OOC for Anya as for every other episode in S7 there was nothing there in terms of remorse. And Spike wearing his killing trophy again on top of taking it away from his victim's son, that's the opposite of remorse.

Redemption is subjective. It depends on how much suffering you want a character to feel, and how entertaining that is to watch on a tv show. We agree that redemption is about putting others before yourself and sacrificing yourself for something/someone that doesn't benefit yourself at all.
That's not what redemption is. Every redemption first starts with the simple admittance that you actually did wrong. If you don't actually think you did anything wrong then there is no redemption. Because what would you need to be redeemed for?

Not true for Faith, Spike, Anya, Andrew, all of whom developed a conscience. You have to allow for personal growth and change. To say you can never develop a conscience is to say no character can ever change, and that's just not what I see on this tv show - all the characters change, even if you believe the change is for the worse.
Anya had long discarded any notion of a conscience and I see Selfless as OOC. Drew Goddard was a little bit too busy trying to recapture Becoming instead of staying true to Anya's character. Spike didn't develop a conscience, he got William's (the demon never had a conscience). And considering his actions in S7 that seemed to be a poor conscience. Andrew has absolutely no morality to speak of so his conscience might as well be non-existent. With Faith it was always made clear that she had a conscience but due to her messed up life a difficulty to stop her self-destructive behavior.
 
The dozen or so people that Spike killed in S7 would like to have a word with you. The trigger is no excuse. If he can stop himself from killing Buffy, no matter how he does it, and it's not the First stopping him (who is the only one that controls the trigger) then Spike should have been able to also stop himself from killing all the other non-Buffy shaped people. So souled Spike is guilty of multiple murder.

And of course there is S8, where having the grand entrance meant more to him than letting people know about the whole Twilight!Angel thing.

Wow, really??! The show made it clear that Spike wasn't in control when he was triggered, kind of the whole point of the trigger from The First's point of view, and when he stopped attacking Buffy it was that the slight taste of her blood broke the trigger in that moment. But as a slayer's blood is specifically portrayed as being unique and powerful throughout the show, that doesn't prove anything about how he should have just managed to stop on all other occasions. They very specifically went on from that to show how the trigger overrode any basic control and, through when Spike discussed it with Buffy, how he didn't even remember anything over just going out and talking to people. The trigger was only broken fully when Spike found the trigger of the song in his memory when his sired mother played the music box and the past that he had been suppressing was released and the trigger broken.

As for S8, Spike arrived in the middle of the disastrous fallout from Twilight and he was cocky and full of swagger because that is what he does to cover over insecurities and uncertainties. It is like his entrance in Beneath You when he appears in the doorway seeming confident and as if he's suddenly pulled it all together, which he hadn't. How Spike presents himself is often forced, which is a major part of his story right back as he fought to distance himself from William and create an image of who he wanted to become. S8 obviously wasn't the easiest situation to walk into for numerous reasons, but he did so to help save the people he cared about and to help by giving them information they needed to protect the world. The stupid bug ship was a whole other thing, but his motivation in appearing when/how he did was responsive to a situation he wasn't in any way responsible for but was there helping to solve.

Speaking of the Twilight storyline, Angel is not a paragon once he is souled that doesn't make some really bad choices at different points. But most fans accept that he is then trying to put things right, even if he does have a habit of letting his hubris lead him into further questionable choices. But he did return to killing in his confusion/despair when he first had the soul. He chose to do that. He locked up the lawyers to be killed by Dru and Darla. Heck, he chose to try (or just risk, depending on your interpretation) to lose his soul again in a fit of depression that the world was an awful place and his search for redemption pointless when he went to find Darla to sleep with her. He mind wiped people and lied to them which led them into joining W&H and then compromised his own mission to be there. What makes Angel such a fascinating character for me, and I do love his overall story, is that he struggles all the time with balancing his darker side, the man underneath as well as the demon. We can compare and contrast different characters but their personalities and their pasts are all different and there isn't any straight X vs Y that draws a clear line where some subjective interpretations aren't at least a little in play. Spike and Angel both have strengths and weaknesses, but how one responds to something doesn't damn the other for not mirroring it. Neither are always right or wrong, but how they reflect and contrast each other can be very interesting and informative. But let's not pretend that one of them shows you how to do it and the other simply lacks in every which way. That is just character preference imo and that is what tends to drive most of the more blinkered comparisons between the two which often seek to brush away certain parts of their acts/pasts/or personality flaws.

As for the whole coat issue, the show heavily drove the point about the symbolism of the coat. He left it behind when he attacked Buffy in S6, Xander found it on the bannister, and when he returned with his soul he chose to not wear it any longer. We even saw him try the bright blue top when he came out the basement in Beneath You, a visual indicator that something was different, but that got stripped away as he struggled and found donning a new 'look' didn't work to contain/cover it all. He only fetched the coat when Buffy goaded him in Get It Done that he wasn't any use to her if he didn't reconnect with the fighter he had been. Fetching the coat was a symbolic way of showing him pushing past his reticence, the fact that he didn't relish the fight anymore as he said, and trying to blend the demon and soul for the benefit of the greater good. I don't think Robin deliberately trying to trigger him, to force him into being something he knew Spike wasn't any more because he wanted to kill the monster is hard to understand, but it obviously isn't OK either. That Spike was furious about what Robin had done to him and vicious in response is also not hard to understand. But was he a b*stard to Robin? Yes he definitely was. And even if I do think in his anger he took it to unnecessarily callous levels, that he has to shut off from considering his feelings to be able to wear the coat, for the good of the mission, was the connection to Buffy/Nicky that was being made.

Spike openly says that he doesn't look back on his victims the same way Angel does. They are different characters and Angel's upbringing means that his focus on his guilt and atonement makes perfect sense for him. I think Spike rationalises having sought out slayers to kill them by telling himself it was a natural fight, and this is something that he has avoided considering fully. I don't think that is good, or that it is healthy to avoid as he does, but I can also understand why he and Angel both feel connected and yet separate to the actions they took unsouled. It must be difficult to feel responsible over things you have done but wouldn't do now and sometimes personal ways of dealing with difficulties aren't the best. But Spike has also had weaker, more open moments when he has been distressed about things that he had done. Generally though, Spike's character tends to look forward to what he can be doing rather than focussing on looking back, and this can be quite determinedly so sometimes. And we have to always remember that characters are not wholly reliable narrators. They say things to cover their feelings or block them and we understand this because of the wider actions that we are shown and reminders of the past. In AtS 5 Spike and Angel both regress to childish behaviour and respond to each other in silly ways to try and protect their own feelings of inadequacy. They eventually learn to respect each other more, and although they have some very revealing conversations, they don't start trusting each other with their personal weaknesses much. As is shown by a lot of their arguments. The way that I understand Spike's attitude about the coast in AtS 5 is to look at the symbolic meaning of it that was a major part of his story in S7. It was a symbol that was repeated in his defeat of Pavayne earlier in the season too. Having lost the coat he feared losing his edge again, losing his connection and becoming weak/useless to the cause. He wasn't going to explain that to Angel, to expose himself, so a quick cover to his reaction was to claim to mourn it and it matter to him because he earned it. We know that isn't how he felt about it, we saw S7. Putting on the coat was about becoming someone harder again, not about reliving a moment of glory.

I do personally have an issue with Anya's lack of remorse when souled, how she talks constantly about her vengeance days, but I accept that the length of time that she was living as an evil demon enjoying murder/mayhem was extensive. I can't like her at all if I don't see her behaviour as somewhat defensive and blinkered for self preservation. That she does get to regret the choice to return to being a vengeance demon and realise that she has changed since becoming human is good progression. Her choice to stay and die in the battle in S7 directly contrasted her attitude when she first became human and fled the danger of an apocalypse for self preservation and I think for me that is indicative, alongside her regret earlier in the season, that she had become 'better'. She put the greater good ahead of herself and that redeemed her somewhat to me. But I can see why it wouldn't feel satisfactory as a completed arc for some.
 
Wow, really??! The show made it clear that Spike wasn't in control when he was triggered, kind of the whole point of the trigger from The First's point of view, and when he stopped attacking Buffy it was that the slight taste of her blood broke the trigger in that moment. But as a slayer's blood is specifically portrayed as being unique and powerful throughout the show, that doesn't prove anything about how he should have just managed to stop on all other occasions. They very specifically went on from that to show how the trigger overrode any basic control and, through when Spike discussed it with Buffy, how he didn't even remember anything over just going out and talking to people. The trigger was only broken fully when Spike found the trigger of the song in his memory when his sired mother played the music box and the past that he had been suppressing was released and the trigger broken.
Yes, really. The trigger works by memory. That's what activates Spike. And clearly deactivated by another memory. So all Spike had to do was summon the latter memory in order to stop. He did it when it was Buffy. So why not the dozen no-names?

I don't buy for one second that nonsense with Buffy's blood. Spike is one in a long list of vampires who have bitten and drank from Buffy. And how many of them got flashbacks because of it? That's right, none. The only thing we know for sure about slayer blood is that it's the cure for a vampire poison. And sure it might be more potent than a normal human's but we have no info about it being able to conjure memories (as all previous vampires didn't have flashbacks) in the one who drinks or that it would counter magical triggers.
 
Yes, really. The trigger works by memory. That's what activates Spike. And clearly deactivated by another memory. So all Spike had to do was summon the latter memory in order to stop. He did it when it was Buffy. So why not the dozen no-names?

I don't buy for one second that nonsense with Buffy's blood. Spike is one in a long list of vampires who have bitten and drank from Buffy. And how many of them got flashbacks because of it? That's right, none. The only thing we know for sure about slayer blood is that it's the cure for a vampire poison. And sure it might be more potent than a normal human's but we have no info about it being able to conjure memories (as all previous vampires didn't have flashbacks) in the one who drinks or that it would counter magical triggers.

No, the trigger is hidden in a memory and it is recalling it, finally facing it in LMPTM, that deactivates it. The trigger allowed The First to take control of Spike because it was fixed into a suppressed memory during his experience of having sired his mother. Specifically I think to what she said to him afterwards, once she had played the music box which contained the triggering song. His inability to think of that memory is why The First was able to use it and why, when it did, Spike was no longer 'there' and The First was able to take control of him and commit the crimes Spike couldn't even remember. This is what the episodes show us and why they then had difficulty deactivating the trigger even once they knew it existed, why they were seeking ways to try to find whatever was hidden deep in his psyche that was being used to take him over, because it was still active as Spike was still suppressing it then. Otherwise you would have just seen lots of episodes of them all simply blaming him for killing those people, telling him it was categorically his fault and telling him to just stop it and get over it because he can. That isn't what they showed because that wasn't the situation.

As no other previous situations have mirrored this, no other mind controlling trigger being in play in them, I don't think it is dismissible to consider that her blood could have disrupted the trigger. In actuality, it makes sense if anything alongside a slayer's blood being the only type that could heal Angel that it might. In fact you could see her blood healing Angel as also bringing him successfully back out of the feral state that she'd pushed him to in order to break his control over the demon and get him to feed from her in the first place. I had actually forgotten about Spike recalling the killings as he'd tasted Buffy's blood. Still that could be due to the significance of the difference of slayer blood still, breaking the trigger's complete block in that moment rather like a healing act, not that it was 'creating' the ability to see the flashbacks themselves through Spike tasting it. It could also be that The First realised it was breaking the hold it had, that it was going to lose control, so it released those memories to horrify Spike, to weaken him and try to still get a desirable result from the situation for itself. Indeed, whilst Spike is reeling in shock, The First was playing with him straight away, goading him about having failed the people he had just seen himself unknowingly killing and telling him how Buffy will have to kill him now. Of course if The First couldn't use the trigger to get Spike to kill Buffy it is going to look to break him further or hurt Buffy and her mission instead by getting her to doubt an ally enough to kill him, someone The First possibly fears is a risk to its plans as having the potential to be a powerful ally/champion (which, you know, is exactly what happens). Spike's desperation to not remember at that point, his wish for Buffy to end it is of course a reflection on his unsouled murderous past, all the murders he has committed, not just the ones he is horrified at having found out he committed souled under the control of The First, but also, as we later learn, including his own mother.

None of this happened on any of the other times he was taken over by the trigger because nothing broke past it and The First was able to successfully use it all the other times to continue to commit the crimes it wanted Spike to be blamed for. As is considered at numerous points in the season, you can argue that Buffy's personal feelings clouded her judgement in not killing him at that moment, and in continuing afterwards to support him and believe what he was telling her, actually trying to get him to see his own potential. But that isn't where the season leads us to. As we see her do on numerous other occasions through the series, Buffy followed her instinct. She saw that there was something more at play and followed her gut to not to kill Spike and look into it all more. The path through the season follows then to show it to have been the right decision. It shows them building each other up and believing in each other and how that leads to Spike becoming a champion and his choice to sacrifice himself. That is the story path that we were given and I thought it was excellent and built on the previous seasons brilliantly. As is usual, not everyone likes it of course. *shrug*
 
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That's disturbing. You don't have to be the "sentimental type" to be disgusted to wear the trophy of your murder victim. So many people defend him on this point, like he's just being "real" or "cool" and " it is what is get over it" like Spike is exempt from having to feel any guilt at all. He hunted, and murdered a slayer , who was also the Mother of a young child and he rationalizes it that she had it coming , that he was only doing what vampires do, and he shouldnt feel bad. Fine, that's all well and good if he feels like that, it doesn't make it any less appalling or gross that he taunts her son with th death of his mother and then, AGAIN, strips the coat off of the son. All while souled. That is vile and disgusting and I don't care how anyone tries to sugarcoat it or feel it's justified.

Oh and Wood tried avenge his mother so of course poor Spike had every right to do it!!! Please. This is what is annoying, are the Spike goggles fans have that anything Spike does is justified, cause he's just so darn awesome. I can love Spike, and Spuffy, and still call him out on the shitty things he does.

Um, those are two separate things.

1) The coat issue. First of all, it's obvious that the only reason the coat came back is because Spike looks better with it, so I prefer not to read into it. I also don't like the episode in which it happens, I think it was sloppily written. But sure, let's analyze the why of it, as it was presented in the show:

Spike chose to wear the coat again because he wanted to reconnect with his inner dark side, to use it for the good fight. It's not unlike when Angel uses his vampire powers to fight bad guys - he uses his vampire fangs, the same fangs that killed many innocent people when he was soulless. Is Angel not disgusted by that side of him? Maybe he is, maybe he isn't, but either way, he uses the fangs because it's necessary. Spike wears the same coat for the same reason.

Now, is it SILLY that a coat makes Spike a better fighter? Oh, HELL YEAH. But that's what the writers went for to justify the coat. And in their defense, that kinda makes sense given Spike's highly theatrical personality.
Anyway, one thing is clear - Spike's decision to wear the coat does NOT mean that he no longer has a conscience.

2) The whole "Spike was mean to Robin in 7x17" thing. Was it the nicest thing Spike could have done there? No. If Jesus was there in Spike's place, he would have probably not said all those things to Robin. But here's the thing - there's HUGE gap between "Jesus" and "a person without a conscience". Robin tried to kill Spike for selfish reasons (I'm sorry, but souled-Spike is NOT responsible for Nikki's death. And even if he was, revenge is not a justified motivation), and Spike's decision to say mean things to him after it was perfectly understandable. I would probably say much meaner things if I was in Spike's place there, and I like to think that I have a conscience. Let's compare it to Angel's decision to choke Wesley in 3x17, after Wesley kidnapped Connor:

Was it okay that Angel tried to choke Wesley to death? No, of course not. Does that action mean that Angel has no conscience? Of course not. He was just full of anger toward a person who wronged him, and he lashed out emotionally. Spike's decision to humiliate Robin is the same. It's not right, but it's not monstrous either. It's just human. And hey - "Saying mean things" is not nearly as bad as "trying to murder a person". So no, Spike's action there are not "vile" or "disgusting" or "gross".

@Carrie Hopewell your my bb soulmate. 🙂

Hey! Hands off!

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But it's not just a coat to Spike though... the show has made it a point to show how his identity, as a vampire, is linked to it. So of course the fans will read into it. That's what symbols are for.

True, true. See above for how I read it.

The dozen or so people that Spike killed in S7 would like to have a word with you. The trigger is no excuse. If he can stop himself from killing Buffy, no matter how he does it, and it's not the First stopping him (who is the only one that controls the trigger) then Spike should have been able to also stop himself from killing all the other non-Buffy shaped people. So souled Spike is guilty of multiple murder.

LOL, I love you for saying it! That's EXACTLY what I always think about that stupid trope (the "I will defeat your mind-control with the power of love" trope)! They do it ALL THE TIME, and it's ALWAYS stupid! Like in 'Captain America: The Winter Soldier', when Bucky breaks free from Hydra's mind-control because Cap tells him that he loves him. It's so stupid! If you could break the mind-control by just wanting it bad enough, then why didn't you do it before? And how incompetent is that mind-control, if you can just break it by having a case of the feels? It's STUPID! Can we please kill that trope already? It's just dumb romanticism, and it's a really cheesy deus-ex-machina!

That said - of course that doesn't mean that Spike has no conscience. Because while it's a stupid trope, it's also clear that the show sees it differently: Spike can only beat the mind-control due to his deep love for Buffy. He couldn't do it with the others, because a normal conscience isn't enough to break the mind-control - only "true love" (barf...) can beat mind control. I don't like it, but that's clearly how it works in-universe. So no, Spike didn't CHOOSE to kill those people. He COULDN'T stop himself from doing it.

And of course there is S8, where having the grand entrance meant more to him than letting people know about the whole Twilight!Angel thing.

Was that ever stated? I don't think the comics ever said that Spike WAITED on telling the scoobies about the whole thing. I assumed that he just went to them as soon as he found out.

I haven't read it in a while, but it does make sense that Willow was talking about Aluwyn, but I think the writers were leaving the statement open to interpretaion as a sop to the Tillow fans, because that's just what Buffy writers tend to do, trying to please everyone.

Well, I don't see it, but it's definitely possible.
 
It just means that Anya's redemption arc ended in 'Selfless', whereas Faith's redemption arc ended in 'Sanctuary'. (redemption = changing from a bad guy to a good guy)

In season 7, we saw that Anya gets punished for not being vengeful enough, and we saw that she's no longer apathetic to the vengeance - "Well, causing pain sounds really cool, I know, but turns out it's really upsetting. Didn't use to be, but now it is". Clearly, Anya DID feel guilt. In her second tenure as vengeance demon, it's obvious that Anya was no longer as immoral as she used to be. In the second time, being a vengeance demon was more about her wanting to belong and to have a purpose, than about wanting actual bloody vengeance.



OR he's just not the sentimental type, and he just thinks that the coat looks cool. Or he wears it to remember his victims, like Wilson Fisk wears his dead father's pins.

OR it was just fanservice, and you shouldn't read anything into it.

Anyway, it doesn't "prove" that Spike had no conscience. It's just a coat.

Redemption is not just feeling sorry for what you did. If it is then Faith was really stupid to go to prison...apparently Faith could have continued to kill for hundreds of years, and then come back and joked about it. Then turned back to killing again. But it's okay because she feels sorry for it. No that's not okay, Faith went to prison, that's suffering. So Anya wanted to die for what she's done? That's the first step of redemption. If Angel had killed Faith in the alleyway like she wanted him to, would you say she redeemed herself? I wouldn't because that's not redemption. Therefore Anya never redeemed herself, feeling sorry for what you did isn't enough. Certainly not if it takes you hundreds of bloody years and 2 chances like it did with Anya. Anya is not redeemed.

The coat proves that he didn't feel bad about killing Nikki. Meaning he has no guilt that he's killed people.
 
They made a point about it being Nikki's coat, they made Robin want it back. For Spike to continue wearing it was just disgusting really, and shows me that he cares more for his fashion sense that he does that he's wearing his victims' coat. Not a great example of a guy looking for redemption.
 
Redemption is not just feeling sorry for what you did. If it is then Faith was really stupid to go to prison...apparently Faith could have continued to kill for hundreds of years, and then come back and joked about it. Then turned back to killing again. But it's okay because she feels sorry for it. No that's not okay, Faith went to prison, that's suffering. So Anya wanted to die for what she's done? That's the first step of redemption. If Angel had killed Faith in the alleyway like she wanted him to, would you say she redeemed herself? I wouldn't because that's not redemption. Therefore Anya never redeemed herself, feeling sorry for what you did isn't enough. Certainly not if it takes you hundreds of bloody years and 2 chances like it did with Anya. Anya is not redeemed.

Um, I think you and I have very different definitions of "redemption". To me, "redemption" simply means not doing bad things anymore. I mean, that's the only thing that's possible - you can't change the past, so the only thing you CAN do is to refrain from doing anymore evil. You seem to think that redemption is trying to help people as a way of "erasing" the past sins, which is what Angel also thinks (at least for a while), but that always seemed ridiculous to me:

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You tell him, Jessica.

Now, should you also try to do good things after you stop doing bad things? Sure. But you shouldn't do it to "achieve redemption", you should do it simply because doing good is good. Buffy also tries to do good in the world, and she doesn't do it to redeem herself.

Additionally, doing good things is also good because it helps alleviate one's guilt. But that's not "redemption" either, it's just self-help:

Doing-something-good-it-helps-with-the-self-loath


So, yeah. Anya is just as redeemed as Faith, by the end of season 7.

They made a point about it being Nikki's coat, they made Robin want it back. For Spike to continue wearing it was just disgusting really, and shows me that he cares more for his fashion sense that he does that he's wearing his victims' coat. Not a great example of a guy looking for redemption.

Again, for Spike, wearing the coat in 'Get it Done' was simply a tactical decision - it helps him be a better fighter. Which is kinda dumb, but it is what it is. It definitely doesn't mean that Spike has no conscience.
 
Um, I think we have very different definitions of "redemptions". To me, "redemption" simply means not doing bad things anymore. I mean, that's the only thing that's possible - you can't change the past, so the only thing you CAN do is to refrain from doing anymore evil. You seem to think that redemption is trying to help people as a way of "erasing" the past sins, which is what Angel also thinks (at least for a while), but that always seemed ridiculous to me:

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Now, should you also try to do good things after you stop doing bad things? Sure. But you shouldn't do it to "achieve redemption", you should do it because doing good is good. Buffy also tries to do good in the world, and she doesn't do it to redeem herself.

Additionally, doing good things is also good because it helps alleviate one's guilt. But that's not "redemption" either, it's just self-help:

Doing-something-good-it-helps-with-the-self-loath


So, yeah. Anya is just as redeemed as Faith, by the end of season 7.

Then why did Faith go to prison? Why do any killers go to prison? It's so not enough to just feel guilt and want to die. That's the easy way out. If we had no punishment for killers, no gateway for them to become good people again, we're saying that their actions aren't worth punishment. Anya's actions were worth punishment, if the court could prove all that she's done, she'd be sentenced. How is feeling bad good enough to call yourself redeemed? It's not. So if Warren suddenly felt bad, he's redeemed? If the mayor suddenly felt bad, he's redeemed? Being redeemed means you're a good person again, it's a process not a sudden feeling of guilt and wanting to die.
 
This is my (okay it's Angel's) definition of redemption:

ANGEL
Faith, listen to me. You saw me drink. It doesn't get much lower than that. And I thought I could make up for it by disappearing.

FAITH
I did my time.

ANGEL
Our time is never up, Faith. We pay for everything.

Except Anya paid for nothing!
 
Then why did Faith go to prison?

For several reasons:

1) To save Angel, who was blamed for harboring her.

2) To help her refrain from hurting people. Faith spent so much time ignoring society's rules, and that lead her to do horrible things. So in 'Sanctuary', Faith decided to change her life - to turn herself in, to get herself out of the rogue life that caused her to make many bad decisions. She did it to make sure that she wouldn't do anymore bad things:

SPIKE
You had the power to walk away anytime. Nothing to stop you.

FAITH
I stopped me. I got dangerous for a while.

So no, Faith didn't go to prison to pay for her sins.

It should be noted that Angel himself (Mr. Redemption) never wanted Faith to go to prison, and that he himself never went to prison for his crimes. Clearly, going to prison isn't a way of redeeming oneself, even according to Angel.

Faith never completed her sentence anyway. If going to jail was her way of atoning for her sins, then why didn't she go back to jail after saving Angel in season 4?

Why do any killers go to prison?

Because society forces them to, not out of choice. And why does society force them to go to prison? To protect itself. It has nothing to do with redemption.

It's so not enough to just feel guilt and want to die. That's the easy way out. If we had no punishment for killers, no gateway for them to become good people again, we're saying that their actions aren't worth punishment. Anya's actions were worth punishment, if the court could prove all that she's done, she'd be sentenced. How is feeling bad good enough to call yourself redeemed? It's not. So if Warren suddenly felt bad, he's redeemed? If the mayor suddenly felt bad, he's redeemed? Being redeemed means you're a good person again, it's a process not a sudden feeling of guilt and wanting to die.

Being redeemed means you're a good person again? I agree. And to be a good person again, the crucial thing you have to do is to STOP DOING BAD THINGS. It's not about doing good things to atone for the bad - if it was, then you could say that Jasmine is a good person, because she helped WAY more people than she hurt.

Feelings have nothing to do with it. If Warren felt about his deeds, but would continue to do bad things, then he'd still be a bad person. But if Warren STOPPED doing bad things, then he'd be a good person. And Anya stopped doing bad things after 'Selfless'.

This is my (okay it's Angel's) definition of redemption:

ANGEL
Faith, listen to me. You saw me drink. It doesn't get much lower than that. And I thought I could make up for it by disappearing.

FAITH
I did my time.

ANGEL
Our time is never up, Faith. We pay for everything.

Except Anya paid for nothing!

1) So, redemption means paying for your sins? Then that's a bad definition, because again - "saving someone doesn't mean un-killing someone else". You can't change the past. Angel's philosophy doesn't make sense. The only thing you can do is to refrain from doing bad things in the future. Like Gunn says: "Look, if you really think you did something wrong, don't do it again. That simple."

2) Actually, Anya DID pay. She fought to save the world in 'Chosen' (and before 'Chosen' too), and she died fighting the good fight. So even by your definition, she was redeemed.

You guys... You're fighting for me! I'm so touched!

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It's okay... we guys can share me 😉

Okay... I'm willing to share....

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For several reasons:

1) To save Angel, who was blamed for harboring her.

2) To help her refrain from hurting people. Faith spent so much time ignoring society's rules, and that lead her to do horrible things. So in 'Sanctuary', Faith decided to change her life - to turn herself in, to get herself out of the rogue life that caused her to make many bad decisions. She did it to make sure that she wouldn't do anymore bad things:



So no, Faith didn't go to prison to pay for her sins.

It should be noted that Angel himself (Mr. Redemption) never wanted Faith to go to prison, and that he himself never went to prison for his crimes. Clearly, going to prison isn't a way of redeeming oneself, even according to Angel.

Faith never completed her sentence anyway. If going to jail was her way of atoning for her sins, then why didn't she go back to jail after saving Angel in season 4?



Because society forces them to, not out of choice. And why does society force them to go to prison? To protect itself. It has nothing to do with redemption.



Being redeemed means you're a good person again? I agree. And to be a good person again, the crucial thing you have to do is to STOP DOING BAD THINGS. It's not about doing good things to atone for the bad - if it was, then you could say that Jasmine is a good person, because she helped WAY more people than she hurt.

Feelings have nothing to do with it. If Warren felt about his deeds, but would continue to do bad things, then he'd still be a bad person. But if Warren STOPPED doing bad things, then he'd be a good person. And Anya stopped doing bad things after 'Selfless'.



1) So, redemption means paying for your sins? Then it's a bad definition, because again - "saving someone doesn't mean un-killing someone else". You can't change the past. Angel's philosophy doesn't make sense. The only thing you can do is to refrain from doing bad things in the future. Like Gunn says: "Look, if you really think you did something wrong, don't do it again. That simple."

2) Actually, Anya DID pay. She fought to save the world in 'Chosen' (and before 'Chosen' too), and she died fighting the good fight. So even by your definition, she was redeemed.



Okay... I'm willing to share....

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Well the buffyverse did set out rules for redemption (Angel and Faith)and Anya didn't follow them so she's not redeemed. You do need to pay for what you've done to be redeemed in the buffyverse. But if you see it the way you see it then I really can't convince you otherwise so...agree to disagree?
 
gs have nothing to do with it. If Warren felt about his deeds, but would continue to do bad things, then he'd still be a bad person. But if Warren STOPPED doing bad things, then he'd be a good person. And Anya stopped doing bad things after 'Selfless'.


So just not doing bad things anymore makes someone a good person? Well, then I guess Jeffry Dahmer and Ted Bundy died good people. And every child rapist and serial murderer who is in jail and can no longer do bad things must be redeemed!! How simple it all is now.

I guess if I wake up one day and decide to go on a murder spree, it's all good cause as long as I never do it again, I'm still a good person .

Also, on regards to Spikes coat, I never said he didn't have a conscience. I was responding to your statement that he wasn't sentimental so wearing the coat of his murder victim isn't a big deal. The fact that he strips the coat of Wood in the same way he did Nikki and relishes the identity it gives him is what makes him reprehensible. He May have a conscience, according to you, but his actions certainly don't seem that way, it just makes him look like prick.

At this point, I'm taking a page from @Athene and let's just agree to disagree. This conversation is going in circles. 🙂
 
We must have watched very different early Seasons. If what the Scoobies, especially Buffy, had was a wonderful life full of rainbows and puppies then us mere mortals must have a heavenly life in comparison.

Buffy: My life, happens to on occasion, suck beyond the telling of it.

I'm speaking to remembering life in high school, not the literally monsters Buffy dealt with
 
Well the buffyverse did set out rules for redemption (Angel and Faith)and Anya didn't follow them so she's not redeemed. You do need to pay for what you've done to be redeemed in the buffyverse. But if you see it the way you see it then I really can't convince you otherwise so...agree to disagree?

I mean, we can always agree to disagree, but... Anya DID do what Faith did. Like Faith, she chose to stop doing bad things, and she payed for her bad deeds, and she joined the good fight, and she even died fighting it. What more does she need to do to be redeemed in your eyes?

Also, "the buffyverse did set out rules for redemption (Angel and Faith)"? That statement makes no sense. The Buffyverse can't just invent rules of morality. The circumstances of the Buffyverse differ from our world, but the moral principles are the same. If you think that Angel and Faith's defintion of redemption is correct, then it needs to be based on the morality of our world, not on "because the writers say so".

Me and @Guy in every conversation ever 😛.

I disagree about that. We DO agree sometimes! 😛

Like, we agree on Trump and stuff.

That's wise 🙂. Someone should heed your advice *cough* @Guy and all of those Sanctuary discussions.

The world needs to know about that!!!!!!1111one

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So just not doing bad things anymore makes someone a good person? Well, then I guess Jeffry Dahmer and Ted Bundy died good people. And every child rapist and serial murderer who is in jail and can no longer do bad things must be redeemed!! How simple it all is now.

I guess if I wake up one day and decide to go on a murder spree, it's all good cause as long as I never do it again, I'm still a good person .

Obviously, a person's choice also matters. Morality is all about choice. If Ted Bundy stopped doing bad things because he realized that it's wrong and didn't want to hurt anyone anymore, then yeah - he'd be a good person. If he only stopped hurting people because he was no longer capable of doing it, then he'd still be a bad person. It's all about choice.

For example:

In season 3, after 'The Wish' and 'Doppelgangland', Anya stopped hurting people, but she only did it because she had no choice: "When I get my powers back, you will all grovel before me!" Therefore, Anya was still a bad person at that time. But in season 7, after 'Selfless', Anya refrained from hurting people OUT OF CHOICE, and therefore she was a good person.

I mean, why is Faith a good person (post-'Sanctuary')? Is she a good person because she payed for her crimes? If that's the case, then you could say that Ted Bundy would be a good person as long as he did something to help the world, even if he would continue to hurt people at the same time (as long as he helped more people than he hurt). Which is exactly what Faith thought during 'Consequences', while she was still hurting people - "We ARE better. People need us to survive".

As I see it, post-'Sanctuary' Faith is a good person because she made the choice to stop hurting people. It doesn't matter how many people she saved or how much time she spent in jail.

Think about Angel - if Angel was murdered by someone immediately after getting his soul back in 1900, before he decided to help people but after he decided NOT to hurt people (after all, Angel didn't start helping people until he met Buffy, a full century after he got his soul), would you say that he would have died an evil man?

Also, on regards to Spikes coat, I never said he didn't have a conscience. I was responding to your statement that he wasn't sentimental so wearing the coat of his murder victim isn't a big deal. The fact that he strips the coat of Wood in the same way he did Nikki and relishes the identity it gives him is what makes him reprehensible. He May have a conscience, according to you, but his actions certainly don't seem that way, it just makes him look like prick.

This combines two issues:

The first is why Spike wears the coat at all after 'Get it Done', which as I said, was a simple tactical decision - he simply fights better with it (yes, it's dumb, but that's his reason).

The second issue is why did Spike act the way he did toward Robin in 7x17. And as I said, I see that as being equivalent to Angel's actions in 3x17, when he chokes Wesley. Is it a good deed? No. But it is a very understandable deed, and it doesn't make him reprehensible. He was just acting out of anger toward a person who wronged him greatly.

At this point, I'm taking a page from @Athene and let's just agree to disagree. This conversation is going in circles. 🙂

Okay...

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